For gun owners

[DSM4Life]

What do you guys think of the Glock 17 ? I shot it at the range the other day and it felt really good. This would be my first gun so i wanted to get others opinion.

[oscarjones]

Solid piece.

I like the compact G19 for 9mm, and you should shoot some different calibers to get a feel for the difference between them all.

I also like the G38 .45 G.A.P.

[kaberle_15]

My favorite handgun!

[Nooomoto]

I have a Glock 23 .40 that I got as a gift, and while it's not a bad gun, it's not for me. I prefer my Beretta 92FS. I guess it's the fact that the balance is off with Glocks due to the difference in materials used.

That being said...Glocks have more than proven themselves as great weapons, and you wouldn't be making a bad choice in getting one.

[TITANIUM]

What do you guys think of the Glock 17 ? I shot it at the range the other day and it felt really good. This would be my first gun so i wanted to get others opinion.

Glocks are great and work with very few parts, this is what makes them so reliable. The Germans are known for there excellent mechanical aptitude. No external safeties are needed due to the safety being built into the trigger assembly.This is done to keep unintentional discharges from happening.

Now, the cartridge that basically what law enforcement gravitates towards is the .40 S&W.This cartridge is based on the 10mm cartridge colt developed years age, but do to marketing issues, never caught on.So, in essence, it is a shorter case length, with the same neck diameter.Ballistics are very good, and the coefficient factor works as well.

You'll find that good hollow points, such as federal hydra-shock bullets are the best round going. The FBI adopted this round years ago, and it is considered the staple on performance and accuracy.Terminal ballistics are also excellent.

I am a 1911 guy, but that is because that was the very first pistol I was trained to use.Even though the US adopted the bareta 9mm, alot of the armed forces and special branches still carry the 1911. It is a fight stopper for sure. The 45 acp was developed by John Moses Browning in the early 1900's, he also developed the 1911 configured hand gun for the US army, which of course was adopted whilst being tested in the field.

So, I would go for the Glock in .40 S&W and you can't go wrong. It's a good round for self defense and is superior to the 9mm. Alot of members will tell you that the .45 is to big and slow. This is due to the mis- understanding surrounding the cartridge. While the .45 has a muzzle velocity of about 850 to 900 fps, if you get into 185 gr +P rounds, it travels around 1250fps.


I've learned quite a bit over the years about the .40 and the 9mm. if you are a police officer, keeping in mind that the odds are high you'll be involved in a shooting around, near, or through a vehicle, rounds like the 147 gr. JHP Hydra Shok may have merit. Remember that one of the key issues for the FBI selection of the 147 Hydra Shok was the fact most FBI shootouts statistically involved automobiles. Light, fast 115 and 124 gr. JHP rounds often fail to penetrate auto bodies and safety glass.


When the .40 S&W round was first marketed, it was typically a 180 gr. JHP with a muzzle velocity of 950 fps. After a few years of use on the street, not all the results from shootings and gunfights had proven the .40 to be a great improvement. When the ballistic testers went to work on this problem, one of the first things noted was if the .40 S&W bullet was reduced in weight to the 135 to 165 gr. range, a higher velocity could be used. This resulted in far better results in actual shootouts.

Today, most savvy .40 S&W users select either the super hot 135 grain loadings or the 155 gr. rounds. When velocities reach the 9mm range, the .40 S&W round performs much better. But at a price. The .40 is a high pressure cartridge and occasionally this pressure can create some spectacular results, if you have a good nine, use it and avoid potential problems.

But, there's more. With good 9mm ammo, depending upon your needs, try the 115 to 135 gr. range. Whether it be the Corbon 115 JHP I use, or Federal, Remington, Winchester, Pro Load, Black Hills or Gold Dot, you're probably as well armed with your 9mm as you would be with a .40 S&W


New cartridges are the lifeblood of shooters like me. After awhile we run out of things to talk about otherwise. Of course it is really hard to say that anything is truly new in a technology that has been mature for a century or so, but when Smith & Wesson and Winchester teamed up to introduce the .40 S&W in 1990 their timing could not have been more opportune. And I was luckily involved almost from the outset.


The groundwork was really laid by the FBI's investigation of the 10mm Auto as a replacement for their issue handguns and the subsequent development of the S&W Model 1076. The 10mm Auto was introduced in 1983 and was a real hotrod with far too much recoil for practical law enforcement use. I had been experimenting with the 10 and came to the conclusion that a 180-grain cast bullet at around 1,000 feet per second handily made major and was much easier to shoot. When the FBI began testing the 10mm they found the 180-grain bullet at 950 to 1,000 fps had great defensive potential as well.

There are conflicting claims over who did what and when. There had been some work done with shortened 10mm brass with the thought of using it in a smaller pistol platform, but both Winchester and Smith & Wesson executives told me that the project was begun with a blank sheet of paper and a handshake between presidents Jerry Bersett of Winchester and Steve Melvin of S&W. The ammo development at Winchester was a closely guarded secret program operating under the code name "Swordfish." The bottom-line intent was to make a cartridge that would work in S&W's 9mm frames, deliver a 180-grain bullet at 950 to 1,000 fps and do so within the 35,000 psi pressure limit already established for the 9mm. Amazing coincidence don't you think?


The coolest thing of all is that the naysayers of 10 years back are still wiping egg from their faces. Of course the speed freaks are still trying to find more speed but the majority of users have stuck with the 180-grain bullet even though my personal favorite is still the FBI's 165. I always was a heretic.




The .45 ACP Cartridge

When you take a look at the large missile-shaped cartridge of your average deer rifle, and better yet, when you put the rifle to your shoulder and fire it, a little alarm ought to go off in your head about pistol cartridges--all pistol cartridges. They are all inadequate in terms of real power. I like Clint Smith's definition that "a pistol is something you use to fight your way back to your gun." Pistols have their place due to the ease with which they can be carried and brought into action, but it's important to recognize their limitations. Notice that no fighting force in history has gone into battle armed with pistols as their primary weapons.

Some pistol cartridges are less inadequate than others, and one which comes pretty close to adequate is the .45 ACP. "ACP" stands for "Automatic Colt Pistol."

John Browning is credited with having designed the .45 ACP cartridge. Browning's .45 ACP was built specifically for the pistol that many of us regard as one of the greatest pistol designs ever, the M1911. However, I'm not at all sure that the M1911 wouldn't have been chambered for .38 Super had Browning been left to his own devices.

The man who pushed the Army into adopting the .45 caliber cartridge was Gen. John T. Thompson, the father of the Thompson submachine gun and a member of the Army Ordnance Board during the time that the M1911 pistol was being developed by John Browning and Colt. After the disastrous showing of the Army's .38 Long Colt pistols in the Philippines, Gen. Thompson was committed to the idea that the Army should be packing a real man-stopper in its handguns, a big .45 caliber bullet.

It was the cartridge tests conducted by Thompson and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps in 1904 at the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago that resulted in the adoption of the .45 caliber as the official U.S. Army handgun cartridge. They tested various calibers on live cattle, deer, and human cadavers to determine the best load. From these tests it was determined that the .45 was the most effective cartridge for a handgun, but with reservations. In their report, they state:

"the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". But they also said, "...soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire" because most of the human body offered "no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit."

In response to the Ordnance Board’s specification, Browning designed the .45 ACP for the pistol he was submitting to the board. Browning’s first loading was a 200 grain bullet running at 900 feet per second, but the Army wanted a larger bullet. Browning responded with the loading we have today, a 230 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 830 feet per second.



Stopping Power

It is interesting to observe that we are still arguing this basic question of terminal ballistics which was articulated by Thompson in 1904. The tag-team wrestling match in the terminal ballistics field is currently between Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall in the "small and fast" corner, and Dr. Martin Fackler (backed up by Thompson and LaGarde) in the "big and slow" corner. This discussion quickly degenerates into a lot of arcane mumbles about temporary and permanent crush cavities, energy transfer, hydrostatic shock, and the Miami FBI shoot-out. It's interesting if you're a physicist or a forensic pathologist, but it gets kind of academic for the rest of us. "Small and fast" works really well with high-powered rifles when their small 80 grain bullets are traveling at 4000 feet per second, but hand gun cartridges don't operate at those energy levels. The best of the small and fast pistol rounds is the 125 grain .357 Magnum which has enjoyed an impressive service record in the "one shot stop" statistics. It has also suffered some spectacular failures in which the bad guy was shot multiple times center of mass and remained on his feet.

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow have worked up a set of statistics based on results of actual shootings in which one shot was fired into the torso of the attacker stopping the assault, and from these studies they have developed percentage ratings for "one shot stops" for cartridges from .22 to 12 gauge. The Marshall and Sanow numbers show a tendency for small and fast cartridges to do somewhat better than large and slow ones, i.e., .380's do slightly better than .38 Specials from 2" barrels and .357 Magnums do a percentage or so better than the .45 ACP. Understand that controversy still rages about the Marshall and Sanow study, particularly about their methods, sources of data, and the shootings they chose to exclude. Nevertheless, it's an interesting study.

Jim Higginbotham, a 30-year law enforcement veteran and trainer writes the following on the subject of pistol cartridges and failures to stop:

While I have come across some lethal encounters that took a lot of rounds to settle they mostly were the result of either poor hits (or complete misses) or lack of penetration. Nearly all of the high round count cases I have reviewed involved 9mms, .38s, .357’s or smaller calibers. This is not to say they do not occur with major caliber rounds. It is to say I have been collecting data for 30 years and have not encountered many cases in which multiple hits (more than three as two or three shots are a fairly normal reflex action) from major caliber cartridges to the center of the chest have not been sufficient, - the single exception being a case involving the .41 Magnum loaded with JSP bullets which did not expand - they did penetrate - it took five hits center mass to stop the attacker - and I have not encountered any with the .45, even with Ball. I have encountered several with 5, 6 or even more hits to the center of the chest with .38, .357, 9mm and .223 rifle rounds failing to stop. Almost every one could be traced to lack of penetration with a couple of exceptions that hit the heart but just did not cause enough damage to be effective quickly. Note I am not talking about "torso" hits. There is a lot of area in the torso in which a hit will seldom produce rapid incapacitation even if hit by a 12 ga. slug or a 30-06 - we simply cannot count such data if we are going to learn anything.

My purpose here is not to argue Fackler versus Marshall and Sanow because that's a book in itself. What is important in all of this is that regardless of which philosophy you choose to accept as true, the .45 ACP comes out well--at or near the top of the effectiveness ratings for both schools of thought.

Having established the almost universal agreement that the .45 ACP is an acceptable personal defense cartridge (kind of like proving the ocean is wet), are there negatives? Sure there are. For one thing, the .45 ACP is big and heavy. The same characteristic that makes it so admired by the big hole school also makes it heavy to carry and bulky, resulting in fewer rounds being available in compact handguns. A fully loaded Thompson submachine gun is fairly heavy if you have to lug it around through a hot jungle all day. Some people find the recoil of the .45 ACP punishing although I'm not one of them (I actually prefer the recoil of the .45 ACP over the recoil of the 9mm). The penetration of the .45 ACP 230-grain FMJ bullet is 26" in ballistic gelatin, making it problematic and dangerous as a personal defense load. The threat of over-penetration with the military round necessitates the use of hollow points for LEO and civilian PDW applications. Some of the older 1911 pistols don't like hollow point bullets very well and have to be throated and have their feed ramps polished for reliability. And last, there is the cost. The .45 ACP is expensive as pistol cartridges go, often $3-$4 per box more than 9mm or .38 Special.






The 9x19mm Parabellum (abbreviated 9mm, 9x19mm or 9x19) cartridge was designed by Georg Luger and introduced in 1902 by the German weapons manufacturer Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) for their Luger semi-automatic pistol.[5] For this reason, it is commonly called the 9mm Luger cartridge, differentiating it from the also-popular 9mm Makarov and 9mm Browning cartridges.

The book Cartridges of the World stated in 2006, the 9x19mm Parabellum is "the world's most popular and widely used military handgun cartridge."[6]

The name Parabellum is derived from the Latin: Si vis pacem, para bellum ("If you seek peace, prepare for war"), which was the motto and telegraphic address of DWM.

In addition to being used by over 60% of police in the U.S., Newsweek credits 9x19 pistol sales with making semi-automatic pistols more popular than revolvers.[7] The popularity of this cartridge can be attributed to the widely held conviction that it is highly effective in police and self-defense use.[8] This cartridge has been shown capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock.


Georg Luger developed the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge from Luger's earlier 7.65x22mm Parabellum. In 1902, Luger presented the new round to the British Small Arms Committee as well as three prototype versions to the U.S. Army for testing at Springfield Arsenal in mid-1***. The German Navy adopted the cartridge in 1904 and in 1906 the German Army adopted it as well.[6]

The initial cartridge was created by removing the bottleneck of the 7.65 mm Luger cartridge, resulting in a tapered rimless cartridge. The ogive of the bullet was slightly redesigned in the 1910s in order to improve feeding.

To conserve lead during World War II in Germany, the lead core was replaced by an iron core encased with lead. This bullet, identified by a black bullet jacket, was designated as the 08 mE (mit Eisenkern—"with iron core"). By 1944, the black jacket of the 08 mE bullet was dropped and these bullets were produced with normal copper-colored jackets. Another wartime variation was designated the 08 SE bullet and identified by its dark gray jacket, and was created by compressing iron powder at high temperature into a solid material (Sintereisen—"sintered iron").[citation needed]


After World War I, acceptance of this caliber increased. 9 mm pistols and submachine guns were adopted by military and police users in a number of countries.

The 9x19mm Parabellum has become the most popular caliber for US Law Enforcement agencies, primarily due to the availability of compact pistols with generous magazine capacity utilizing this cartridge.

During the period between the early 1980s and the mid-1990s, a sharp increase in the popularity of semiautomatic pistols coincided with the adoption of the Beretta M9 by the US Army. At the time, most police departments were issuing .38 Special caliber revolvers with a six-shot capacity. The .38 Special was advantageous to other options like variants of the M1911 because it offered low recoil, the revolvers were small and light enough to accommodate different shooters, and it was relatively inexpensive.

Possessing superior ballistics to the .38 Special revolver cartridge, the 9 mm is a shorter round, and being an autoloader cartridge is stored in flat magazines as opposed to cylindrical speedloaders or clip (ammunition), coincided with the escalation of the gun politics debate of the 80's and 90's making 9mm guns a significant factor in the political rhetoric of the time.

The 9mm is also used by law enforcement outside of the United States. On June 14, 2009 the Minneapolis St. Paul Star Tribune reported that Alliant Techsystems, Edina, and Humbert CTTS SAS were awarded an approximately US$14mil contract to provide Speer GoldDot 9mm ammunition to the French Gendarmerie, French Customs, French Corrections and all 250,000 police officers in France.

The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 250 mm (1 in 9.84 in), 6 grooves, ø lands = 8.82 mm, ø grooves = 9.02 mm, land width = 2.49 mm and the primer type is small pistol.

According to the official C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente Pour L'Epreuve Des Armes A Feu Portatives) guidelines the 9x19mm Parabellum case can handle up to 235 MPa (34,083 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries every pistol cartridge combo has to be proofed at 130% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers.
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9x19mm Parabellum is set at 241.32 MPa (35,000 psi), piezo pressure.[14]
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9x19 mm Parabellum +P is set at 265.45 MPa (38,500 psi), piezo pressure.

Performance

An expanded 124 grain 9x19mm Parabellum jacketed hollow point.The effective range of the 9mm is about 100 m although the bullet does travel and is lethal at longer ranges.

The 9 mm cartridge combines a relatively flat trajectory with moderate recoil. As early as 1986, in the NRA's book Handloading stated that "the modern science of wound ballistics has established beyond reasonable doubt that the 9mm cartridge is highly effective."[8]

The energy delivered by most 9 mm loads allows for adequate expansion and penetration with premium JHP bullets. Illinois State Police, Border Patrol, Federal Air Marshals and United States Secret Service favored and used 115 grain +P+ 9 mm loads at 1,300 ft/s for years with excellent results.[15] Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber.

The energy of this cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets.[9][10][16] The existence of this phenomenon has been the subject of much debate, especially with respect to handgun cartridges.[17][18][19] However, recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets.[11]

Improvements and variations

From left to right: .50 Action Express, .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9×19 mm Parabellum, .22 Long Rifle.In addition to the traditional pressure values for this cartidge, there are two main variants that offer different pressure standards than the SAAMI or C.I.P requirements.

9x19mm +P variant
Attempts to improve ballistics of the cartridge came in the early 1990s with the widespread availability of high pressure loadings of the 9 mm cartridge. Such overpressure cartridges are labeled "+P" or in the case of very high pressure loadings "+P+".[20] Ballistic performance of these rounds was moderately improved over the standard loadings. In addition, improvements in jacketed hollow point bullet technology have produced bullet designs that are more likely to expand and less likely to fragment than earlier iterations, giving a 9 mm bullet better terminal effectiveness.[citation needed]

9 mm NATO variant
The 9 mm cartridge has been manufactured by, or for, more than 70 different countries and has become a standard pistol caliber for NATO and other military forces around the world. Its official nomenclature among NATO users is "9 mm NATO". The 9 mm NATO can be considered as an overpressure variant of the 9x19mm Parabellum that is defined by NATO standards.[21] The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,550 psi) where C.I.P. rates the 9 mm Luger PTmax somewhat lower at 235 MPa (34,083 psi). The 315.0 MPa (45,687 psi) proofing test pressure used in the 9 mm NATO proof test however equals the proofing test pressure used in the 9 mm Luger C.I.P. proof test.


Russian military overpressure variants
The Russian military has developed specialized 9x19mm cartridges that utilize relatively light bullets at high muzzle velocities for both pistols and submachine guns to defeat body armour. Besides enhanced penetration capabilities these overpressure variants offer a flatter trajectory and lessened recoil. After initial research, conducted since the late 1980s under the codename "Grach", the Russian armed forces adopted two specialized 9x19mm variants.


Chambering 7N21 9x19mm variant 7N31 9x19mm variant
Bullet weight 5.3 g (82 gr) 4.2 g (65 gr)
Muzzle velocity 460 m/s (1,509 ft/s) 600 m/s (1,969 ft/s)
Muzzle energy 561 J (414 ft.lbf) 756 J (558 ft.lbf)
Maximum pressure 280 MPa (40,611 psi)

The 7N21 9x19 mm overpressure variant MPa features an armour piercing bullet and generates a claimed peak pressure of 280 MPa (40,611 psi).[22] The 7N21 bullet features a hardened (sub-caliber) steel penetrator core, enclosed into a bimetal jacket. The space between the core and jacket is filled with polyethylene, and the tip of the penetrator is exposed at the front of the bullet, to achieve better penetration. The MP-443 Grach and GSh-18 pistols and PP-19-01, PP90M1 and PP-2000 submachine guns were designed for usage with this overpressure cartridge. Jane's Infantry Weapons stated in 2003 that the 7N21 cartridge combines the 9x19mm Parabellum dimensions with a 9x21mm Gyurza bullet design and was developed specifically for the penetration of body armour and for the MP-443 Grach pistol, the latest Russian service pistol.[23]

In the 7N31 9x19mm overpressure variant the same concept with a similar but lighter bullet that achieves higher muzzle velocity is applied. The 7N31 cartridge was developed in the late 1990s for the GSh-18 pistol. The 7N31 was also adopted for the PP-2000 submachine gun. Its maximum service pressure remains unclear.



Hope this helps

Best

T

[Ernst]

Glock is Austrian, not German. My HK is German.

Glocks are solid. I would not recommend a 9mm though. I don't have to throw around paper ballistics tables and crap to justify my choice of .45acp like the 9mm folk love to do. It's been a proven manstopper for over a century.

[ottomaddox]

Next time I buy a gun I'll make sure and buy the biggest most powerful one I can get in California, my wimpy 9mm couldn't stop a trafiic light. It all depends on what you're looking for, reliability, namebrand, durability, modification parts availability, stopping power, cost of ammo, etc......
I really like this site for gun stuff: w w w . g u n a c c e s s o r i e s . c o m . I got a great 30 round magazine for my Berretta there.

[CHUCKYthentic]

damn T nice info! haha next gun i purchase i am getting advice from you!

shit i want to get a new .40cal but its near impossible to get rounds for it around here

[TITANIUM]

Glock is Austrian, not German. My HK is German.

Glocks are solid. I would not recommend a 9mm though. I don't have to throw around paper ballistics tables and crap to justify my choice of .45acp like the 9mm folk love to do. It's been a proven manstopper for over a century.

Gaston Glock spoke German.

But, you are correct.

Austria is right next to Germany, so there is a fine line in the sand.

Best


T

[TITANIUM]

damn T nice info! haha next gun i purchase i am getting advice from you!

shit i want to get a new .40cal but its near impossible to get rounds for it around here

Ya, it's my thing.

If I knew this much about gear, I'd be a MOD by now!

I'm working on it.....

Best

T

[lovbyts]

I had the Glock 19 and loved it. I now have a Glock 23 .40 and didn't even know until recently that it can also be changed over to a 9mm easily.

[DSM4Life]

Damn T, thanks for the info.

The guy at the range was really good. He explained everything about the gun and even showed me how to take it apart which was easier than i thought. Thats why i was looking at that gun. He also went on to explain how reliable the glocks are which is why i am looking at that model. I am also going to look at the 19's which are smaller but before i buy i want to shoot it first to make sure its not to small for my hand.

[JDawg1536]

What's the price tag on it DSM?

[TITANIUM]

These are 3rd generation Glocks. First Generation, if new in box, run about the same.These are just estimates.MSRP's may fluxuate.


Glock 17 (9mm)

Model Description Price MSRP
PI17501 GLOCK G17 9MM SEMI AUTO PISTOL STANDARD 4.49" BBL ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS 10 RND MAGAZINE $496

PI17502 GLOCK G17 9MM SEMI-AUTO PISTOL STANDARD 4.49" BBL FIXED SIGHTS 10 RND MAGAZINE $477

17507 GLOCK G17 SERVICE 9MM SEMI-AUTO PISTOL STANDARD 4.49" BBL GLOCK FIXED NIGHT SIGHTS 10 RND MAGAZINE $530

17591 GLOCK G17 9MM SEMI-AUTO PISTOL COMPENSATED ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS 3.5LB TRIGGER 10 RND MAGAZINE $535

17592 GLOCK G17 9MM SEMI-AUTO PISTOL COMPENSATED FIXED SIGHTS 3.5LB TRIGGER 10 RND MAGAZINE $515

LMS1141 LASERMAX SIGHT LASER SYSTEM FOR GLOCK 17 635NM HIGH BRIGHTNESS $332


Best

T

PS-The guns will come with hi-cap mags. Depends on what state you reside in.

[JDawg1536]

These are 3rd generation Glocks. First Generation, if new in box, run about the same.These are just estimates.MSRP's may fluxuate.


Glock 17 (9mm)

Model Description Price MSRP
PI17501 GLOCK G17 9MM SEMI AUTO PISTOL STANDARD 4.49" BBL ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS 10 RND MAGAZINE $496

PI17502 GLOCK G17 9MM SEMI-AUTO PISTOL STANDARD 4.49" BBL FIXED SIGHTS 10 RND MAGAZINE $477

17507 GLOCK G17 SERVICE 9MM SEMI-AUTO PISTOL STANDARD 4.49" BBL GLOCK FIXED NIGHT SIGHTS 10 RND MAGAZINE $530

17591 GLOCK G17 9MM SEMI-AUTO PISTOL COMPENSATED ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS 3.5LB TRIGGER 10 RND MAGAZINE $535

17592 GLOCK G17 9MM SEMI-AUTO PISTOL COMPENSATED FIXED SIGHTS 3.5LB TRIGGER 10 RND MAGAZINE $515

LMS1141 LASERMAX SIGHT LASER SYSTEM FOR GLOCK 17 635NM HIGH BRIGHTNESS $332


Best

T

PS-The guns will come with hi-cap mags. Depends on what state you reside in.

Yup, because two 15 round mags hold more ammo than three 10 round mags. Can't have that....

[-Ender-]

Sounds like you're on the right path DSM! Good to hear that you're also keying on what fits your hand, and trying certain models before purchase.
The Glock is not my first choice, but it's a fine handgun.
Get it chambered in .40

[peteroy01]

if u like the glock u might want to also look at the springfield XDs and see which one fits ur hand the best/natural point of aim. last summer i went to a gunsmith school and took apart a crap load of pistols and i would have to say that the springfields are better quality gun.

i have one in .45acp but only after shooting 100rds out of the glocks and the springfields. and to all u 9mm haters, the 9mm got a bad rap cause of the military having to use full metal jacket ammo. if u put a 9mm gold dot in somebody it really doesnt make a shit. i wish i would have bought a 9mm instead of my 45 cause i could buy twice the rounds for the same price which ='s more range time which ='s better accuracy. and again ill stress the natural point of aim. when shit hits the fan ur natural point of aim and ur ability to not pull the trigger like ur starting a weed eater will make the differene between life and death. hope that helps.

btw, glocks are good guns, its just personal preference.
but springfields xd'S are better

[Western Man]

Damn T, thanks for the info.

The guy at the range was really good. He explained everything about the gun and even showed me how to take it apart which was easier than i thought. Thats why i was looking at that gun. He also went on to explain how reliable the glocks are which is why i am looking at that model. I am also going to look at the 19's which are smaller but before i buy i want to shoot it first to make sure its not to small for my hand.

Glock is very easy to disassemble and clean. Also it doesn't need to be cleaned after every firing which is helpful. It shoots fairly well, and is usually priced right. I wouldn't pay more than $500 for one. I have a G22 and it's my carry gun and home defense gun.

I also like Sig.

[The Deuce]

Yup, because two 15 round mags hold more ammo than three 10 round mags. Can't have that....

That's California for ya !!

But DSM.. that is a great choice for reliability.. accuracy.. and if you want.. that gun can convert to fully auto with you acquiring your Class III stamp... and then accompany that with a few 32 round magazines.. YOU ARE IN BUSINESS !!

Lol.. Ok, so you probably don't need to go that extreme... but..

For what it's worth. I would go into tons of detail because like Titanium I just LOVE GUNS as we all know now, and umm I think he covered it all.. haha no sense reiterating it....

But here's my issue with GLOCK's.. the Angle of the GRIP SUCKS !! Hurts my wrist when firing.. usually not the 9mm but definitely the .45acp version.. but i have to admit.. I own 5 glocks.. and my FAVE.. is my converted .50gi ..

Anyways, enough about me.. this thread is about YOU.. so.. basically bro.. if you feel comfortable with THAT GLOCK.. if you get the same size FRAME.. You will be comfortable with any GLOCK.. so opt for .40cal.. accuracy of a 9mm .. knockdown power of a .45... PERFECT CHOICE !!!

That's my opinion

[The Deuce]

Glocks are great and work with very few parts, this is what makes them so reliable. The Germans are known for there excellent mechanical aptitude. No external safeties are needed due to the safety being built into the trigger assembly.This is done to keep unintentional discharges from happening.

Now, the cartridge that basically what law enforcement gravitates towards is the .40 S&W.This cartridge is based on the 10mm cartridge colt developed years age, but do to marketing issues, never caught on.So, in essence, it is a shorter case length, with the same neck diameter.Ballistics are very good, and the coefficient factor works as well.

You'll find that good hollow points, such as federal hydra-shock bullets are the best round going. The FBI adopted this round years ago, and it is considered the staple on performance and accuracy.Terminal ballistics are also excellent.

I am a 1911 guy, but that is because that was the very first pistol I was trained to use.Even though the US adopted the bareta 9mm, alot of the armed forces and special branches still carry the 1911. It is a fight stopper for sure. The 45 acp was developed by John Moses Browning in the early 1900's, he also developed the 1911 configured hand gun for the US army, which of course was adopted whilst being tested in the field.

So, I would go for the Glock in .40 S&W and you can't go wrong. It's a good round for self defense and is superior to the 9mm. Alot of members will tell you that the .45 is to big and slow. This is due to the mis- understanding surrounding the cartridge. While the .45 has a muzzle velocity of about 850 to 900 fps, if you get into 185 gr +P rounds, it travels around 1250fps.


I've learned quite a bit over the years about the .40 and the 9mm. if you are a police officer, keeping in mind that the odds are high you'll be involved in a shooting around, near, or through a vehicle, rounds like the 147 gr. JHP Hydra Shok may have merit. Remember that one of the key issues for the FBI selection of the 147 Hydra Shok was the fact most FBI shootouts statistically involved automobiles. Light, fast 115 and 124 gr. JHP rounds often fail to penetrate auto bodies and safety glass.


When the .40 S&W round was first marketed, it was typically a 180 gr. JHP with a muzzle velocity of 950 fps. After a few years of use on the street, not all the results from shootings and gunfights had proven the .40 to be a great improvement. When the ballistic testers went to work on this problem, one of the first things noted was if the .40 S&W bullet was reduced in weight to the 135 to 165 gr. range, a higher velocity could be used. This resulted in far better results in actual shootouts.

Today, most savvy .40 S&W users select either the super hot 135 grain loadings or the 155 gr. rounds. When velocities reach the 9mm range, the .40 S&W round performs much better. But at a price. The .40 is a high pressure cartridge and occasionally this pressure can create some spectacular results, if you have a good nine, use it and avoid potential problems.

But, there's more. With good 9mm ammo, depending upon your needs, try the 115 to 135 gr. range. Whether it be the Corbon 115 JHP I use, or Federal, Remington, Winchester, Pro Load, Black Hills or Gold Dot, you're probably as well armed with your 9mm as you would be with a .40 S&W


New cartridges are the lifeblood of shooters like me. After awhile we run out of things to talk about otherwise. Of course it is really hard to say that anything is truly new in a technology that has been mature for a century or so, but when Smith & Wesson and Winchester teamed up to introduce the .40 S&W in 1990 their timing could not have been more opportune. And I was luckily involved almost from the outset.


The groundwork was really laid by the FBI's investigation of the 10mm Auto as a replacement for their issue handguns and the subsequent development of the S&W Model 1076. The 10mm Auto was introduced in 1983 and was a real hotrod with far too much recoil for practical law enforcement use. I had been experimenting with the 10 and came to the conclusion that a 180-grain cast bullet at around 1,000 feet per second handily made major and was much easier to shoot. When the FBI began testing the 10mm they found the 180-grain bullet at 950 to 1,000 fps had great defensive potential as well.

There are conflicting claims over who did what and when. There had been some work done with shortened 10mm brass with the thought of using it in a smaller pistol platform, but both Winchester and Smith & Wesson executives told me that the project was begun with a blank sheet of paper and a handshake between presidents Jerry Bersett of Winchester and Steve Melvin of S&W. The ammo development at Winchester was a closely guarded secret program operating under the code name "Swordfish." The bottom-line intent was to make a cartridge that would work in S&W's 9mm frames, deliver a 180-grain bullet at 950 to 1,000 fps and do so within the 35,000 psi pressure limit already established for the 9mm. Amazing coincidence don't you think?


The coolest thing of all is that the naysayers of 10 years back are still wiping egg from their faces. Of course the speed freaks are still trying to find more speed but the majority of users have stuck with the 180-grain bullet even though my personal favorite is still the FBI's 165. I always was a heretic.




The .45 ACP Cartridge

When you take a look at the large missile-shaped cartridge of your average deer rifle, and better yet, when you put the rifle to your shoulder and fire it, a little alarm ought to go off in your head about pistol cartridges--all pistol cartridges. They are all inadequate in terms of real power. I like Clint Smith's definition that "a pistol is something you use to fight your way back to your gun." Pistols have their place due to the ease with which they can be carried and brought into action, but it's important to recognize their limitations. Notice that no fighting force in history has gone into battle armed with pistols as their primary weapons.

Some pistol cartridges are less inadequate than others, and one which comes pretty close to adequate is the .45 ACP. "ACP" stands for "Automatic Colt Pistol."

John Browning is credited with having designed the .45 ACP cartridge. Browning's .45 ACP was built specifically for the pistol that many of us regard as one of the greatest pistol designs ever, the M1911. However, I'm not at all sure that the M1911 wouldn't have been chambered for .38 Super had Browning been left to his own devices.

The man who pushed the Army into adopting the .45 caliber cartridge was Gen. John T. Thompson, the father of the Thompson submachine gun and a member of the Army Ordnance Board during the time that the M1911 pistol was being developed by John Browning and Colt. After the disastrous showing of the Army's .38 Long Colt pistols in the Philippines, Gen. Thompson was committed to the idea that the Army should be packing a real man-stopper in its handguns, a big .45 caliber bullet.

It was the cartridge tests conducted by Thompson and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps in 1904 at the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago that resulted in the adoption of the .45 caliber as the official U.S. Army handgun cartridge. They tested various calibers on live cattle, deer, and human cadavers to determine the best load. From these tests it was determined that the .45 was the most effective cartridge for a handgun, but with reservations. In their report, they state:

"the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". But they also said, "...soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire" because most of the human body offered "no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit."

In response to the Ordnance Board’s specification, Browning designed the .45 ACP for the pistol he was submitting to the board. Browning’s first loading was a 200 grain bullet running at 900 feet per second, but the Army wanted a larger bullet. Browning responded with the loading we have today, a 230 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 830 feet per second.



Stopping Power

It is interesting to observe that we are still arguing this basic question of terminal ballistics which was articulated by Thompson in 1904. The tag-team wrestling match in the terminal ballistics field is currently between Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall in the "small and fast" corner, and Dr. Martin Fackler (backed up by Thompson and LaGarde) in the "big and slow" corner. This discussion quickly degenerates into a lot of arcane mumbles about temporary and permanent crush cavities, energy transfer, hydrostatic shock, and the Miami FBI shoot-out. It's interesting if you're a physicist or a forensic pathologist, but it gets kind of academic for the rest of us. "Small and fast" works really well with high-powered rifles when their small 80 grain bullets are traveling at 4000 feet per second, but hand gun cartridges don't operate at those energy levels. The best of the small and fast pistol rounds is the 125 grain .357 Magnum which has enjoyed an impressive service record in the "one shot stop" statistics. It has also suffered some spectacular failures in which the bad guy was shot multiple times center of mass and remained on his feet.

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow have worked up a set of statistics based on results of actual shootings in which one shot was fired into the torso of the attacker stopping the assault, and from these studies they have developed percentage ratings for "one shot stops" for cartridges from .22 to 12 gauge. The Marshall and Sanow numbers show a tendency for small and fast cartridges to do somewhat better than large and slow ones, i.e., .380's do slightly better than .38 Specials from 2" barrels and .357 Magnums do a percentage or so better than the .45 ACP. Understand that controversy still rages about the Marshall and Sanow study, particularly about their methods, sources of data, and the shootings they chose to exclude. Nevertheless, it's an interesting study.

Jim Higginbotham, a 30-year law enforcement veteran and trainer writes the following on the subject of pistol cartridges and failures to stop:

While I have come across some lethal encounters that took a lot of rounds to settle they mostly were the result of either poor hits (or complete misses) or lack of penetration. Nearly all of the high round count cases I have reviewed involved 9mms, .38s, .357’s or smaller calibers. This is not to say they do not occur with major caliber rounds. It is to say I have been collecting data for 30 years and have not encountered many cases in which multiple hits (more than three as two or three shots are a fairly normal reflex action) from major caliber cartridges to the center of the chest have not been sufficient, - the single exception being a case involving the .41 Magnum loaded with JSP bullets which did not expand - they did penetrate - it took five hits center mass to stop the attacker - and I have not encountered any with the .45, even with Ball. I have encountered several with 5, 6 or even more hits to the center of the chest with .38, .357, 9mm and .223 rifle rounds failing to stop. Almost every one could be traced to lack of penetration with a couple of exceptions that hit the heart but just did not cause enough damage to be effective quickly. Note I am not talking about "torso" hits. There is a lot of area in the torso in which a hit will seldom produce rapid incapacitation even if hit by a 12 ga. slug or a 30-06 - we simply cannot count such data if we are going to learn anything.

My purpose here is not to argue Fackler versus Marshall and Sanow because that's a book in itself. What is important in all of this is that regardless of which philosophy you choose to accept as true, the .45 ACP comes out well--at or near the top of the effectiveness ratings for both schools of thought.

Having established the almost universal agreement that the .45 ACP is an acceptable personal defense cartridge (kind of like proving the ocean is wet), are there negatives? Sure there are. For one thing, the .45 ACP is big and heavy. The same characteristic that makes it so admired by the big hole school also makes it heavy to carry and bulky, resulting in fewer rounds being available in compact handguns. A fully loaded Thompson submachine gun is fairly heavy if you have to lug it around through a hot jungle all day. Some people find the recoil of the .45 ACP punishing although I'm not one of them (I actually prefer the recoil of the .45 ACP over the recoil of the 9mm). The penetration of the .45 ACP 230-grain FMJ bullet is 26" in ballistic gelatin, making it problematic and dangerous as a personal defense load. The threat of over-penetration with the military round necessitates the use of hollow points for LEO and civilian PDW applications. Some of the older 1911 pistols don't like hollow point bullets very well and have to be throated and have their feed ramps polished for reliability. And last, there is the cost. The .45 ACP is expensive as pistol cartridges go, often $3-$4 per box more than 9mm or .38 Special.






The 9x19mm Parabellum (abbreviated 9mm, 9x19mm or 9x19) cartridge was designed by Georg Luger and introduced in 1902 by the German weapons manufacturer Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) for their Luger semi-automatic pistol.[5] For this reason, it is commonly called the 9mm Luger cartridge, differentiating it from the also-popular 9mm Makarov and 9mm Browning cartridges.

The book Cartridges of the World stated in 2006, the 9x19mm Parabellum is "the world's most popular and widely used military handgun cartridge."[6]

The name Parabellum is derived from the Latin: Si vis pacem, para bellum ("If you seek peace, prepare for war"), which was the motto and telegraphic address of DWM.

In addition to being used by over 60% of police in the U.S., Newsweek credits 9x19 pistol sales with making semi-automatic pistols more popular than revolvers.[7] The popularity of this cartridge can be attributed to the widely held conviction that it is highly effective in police and self-defense use.[8] This cartridge has been shown capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock.


Georg Luger developed the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge from Luger's earlier 7.65x22mm Parabellum. In 1902, Luger presented the new round to the British Small Arms Committee as well as three prototype versions to the U.S. Army for testing at Springfield Arsenal in mid-1***. The German Navy adopted the cartridge in 1904 and in 1906 the German Army adopted it as well.[6]

The initial cartridge was created by removing the bottleneck of the 7.65 mm Luger cartridge, resulting in a tapered rimless cartridge. The ogive of the bullet was slightly redesigned in the 1910s in order to improve feeding.

To conserve lead during World War II in Germany, the lead core was replaced by an iron core encased with lead. This bullet, identified by a black bullet jacket, was designated as the 08 mE (mit Eisenkern—"with iron core"). By 1944, the black jacket of the 08 mE bullet was dropped and these bullets were produced with normal copper-colored jackets. Another wartime variation was designated the 08 SE bullet and identified by its dark gray jacket, and was created by compressing iron powder at high temperature into a solid material (Sintereisen—"sintered iron").[citation needed]


After World War I, acceptance of this caliber increased. 9 mm pistols and submachine guns were adopted by military and police users in a number of countries.

The 9x19mm Parabellum has become the most popular caliber for US Law Enforcement agencies, primarily due to the availability of compact pistols with generous magazine capacity utilizing this cartridge.

During the period between the early 1980s and the mid-1990s, a sharp increase in the popularity of semiautomatic pistols coincided with the adoption of the Beretta M9 by the US Army. At the time, most police departments were issuing .38 Special caliber revolvers with a six-shot capacity. The .38 Special was advantageous to other options like variants of the M1911 because it offered low recoil, the revolvers were small and light enough to accommodate different shooters, and it was relatively inexpensive.

Possessing superior ballistics to the .38 Special revolver cartridge, the 9 mm is a shorter round, and being an autoloader cartridge is stored in flat magazines as opposed to cylindrical speedloaders or clip (ammunition), coincided with the escalation of the gun politics debate of the 80's and 90's making 9mm guns a significant factor in the political rhetoric of the time.

The 9mm is also used by law enforcement outside of the United States. On June 14, 2009 the Minneapolis St. Paul Star Tribune reported that Alliant Techsystems, Edina, and Humbert CTTS SAS were awarded an approximately US$14mil contract to provide Speer GoldDot 9mm ammunition to the French Gendarmerie, French Customs, French Corrections and all 250,000 police officers in France.

The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 250 mm (1 in 9.84 in), 6 grooves, ø lands = 8.82 mm, ø grooves = 9.02 mm, land width = 2.49 mm and the primer type is small pistol.

According to the official C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente Pour L'Epreuve Des Armes A Feu Portatives) guidelines the 9x19mm Parabellum case can handle up to 235 MPa (34,083 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries every pistol cartridge combo has to be proofed at 130% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers.
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9x19mm Parabellum is set at 241.32 MPa (35,000 psi), piezo pressure.[14]
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9x19 mm Parabellum +P is set at 265.45 MPa (38,500 psi), piezo pressure.

Performance

An expanded 124 grain 9x19mm Parabellum jacketed hollow point.The effective range of the 9mm is about 100 m although the bullet does travel and is lethal at longer ranges.

The 9 mm cartridge combines a relatively flat trajectory with moderate recoil. As early as 1986, in the NRA's book Handloading stated that "the modern science of wound ballistics has established beyond reasonable doubt that the 9mm cartridge is highly effective."[8]

The energy delivered by most 9 mm loads allows for adequate expansion and penetration with premium JHP bullets. Illinois State Police, Border Patrol, Federal Air Marshals and United States Secret Service favored and used 115 grain +P+ 9 mm loads at 1,300 ft/s for years with excellent results.[15] Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber.

The energy of this cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets.[9][10][16] The existence of this phenomenon has been the subject of much debate, especially with respect to handgun cartridges.[17][18][19] However, recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets.[11]

Improvements and variations

From left to right: .50 Action Express, .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9×19 mm Parabellum, .22 Long Rifle.In addition to the traditional pressure values for this cartidge, there are two main variants that offer different pressure standards than the SAAMI or C.I.P requirements.

9x19mm +P variant
Attempts to improve ballistics of the cartridge came in the early 1990s with the widespread availability of high pressure loadings of the 9 mm cartridge. Such overpressure cartridges are labeled "+P" or in the case of very high pressure loadings "+P+".[20] Ballistic performance of these rounds was moderately improved over the standard loadings. In addition, improvements in jacketed hollow point bullet technology have produced bullet designs that are more likely to expand and less likely to fragment than earlier iterations, giving a 9 mm bullet better terminal effectiveness.[citation needed]

9 mm NATO variant
The 9 mm cartridge has been manufactured by, or for, more than 70 different countries and has become a standard pistol caliber for NATO and other military forces around the world. Its official nomenclature among NATO users is "9 mm NATO". The 9 mm NATO can be considered as an overpressure variant of the 9x19mm Parabellum that is defined by NATO standards.[21] The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,550 psi) where C.I.P. rates the 9 mm Luger PTmax somewhat lower at 235 MPa (34,083 psi). The 315.0 MPa (45,687 psi) proofing test pressure used in the 9 mm NATO proof test however equals the proofing test pressure used in the 9 mm Luger C.I.P. proof test.


Russian military overpressure variants
The Russian military has developed specialized 9x19mm cartridges that utilize relatively light bullets at high muzzle velocities for both pistols and submachine guns to defeat body armour. Besides enhanced penetration capabilities these overpressure variants offer a flatter trajectory and lessened recoil. After initial research, conducted since the late 1980s under the codename "Grach", the Russian armed forces adopted two specialized 9x19mm variants.


Chambering 7N21 9x19mm variant 7N31 9x19mm variant
Bullet weight 5.3 g (82 gr) 4.2 g (65 gr)
Muzzle velocity 460 m/s (1,509 ft/s) 600 m/s (1,969 ft/s)
Muzzle energy 561 J (414 ft.lbf) 756 J (558 ft.lbf)
Maximum pressure 280 MPa (40,611 psi)

The 7N21 9x19 mm overpressure variant MPa features an armour piercing bullet and generates a claimed peak pressure of 280 MPa (40,611 psi).[22] The 7N21 bullet features a hardened (sub-caliber) steel penetrator core, enclosed into a bimetal jacket. The space between the core and jacket is filled with polyethylene, and the tip of the penetrator is exposed at the front of the bullet, to achieve better penetration. The MP-443 Grach and GSh-18 pistols and PP-19-01, PP90M1 and PP-2000 submachine guns were designed for usage with this overpressure cartridge. Jane's Infantry Weapons stated in 2003 that the 7N21 cartridge combines the 9x19mm Parabellum dimensions with a 9x21mm Gyurza bullet design and was developed specifically for the penetration of body armour and for the MP-443 Grach pistol, the latest Russian service pistol.[23]

In the 7N31 9x19mm overpressure variant the same concept with a similar but lighter bullet that achieves higher muzzle velocity is applied. The 7N31 cartridge was developed in the late 1990s for the GSh-18 pistol. The 7N31 was also adopted for the PP-2000 submachine gun. Its maximum service pressure remains unclear.



Hope this helps

Best

T

Oh and T ... BTW... THIS RIGHT HERE.. is probably the sexiest thing you have ever said !! Hahahaha

[TITANIUM]

Oh and T ... BTW... THIS RIGHT HERE.. is probably the sexiest thing you have ever said !! Hahahaha

I knew it would get your attention!!!

Best

T

[DSM4Life]

Well im glad the glock is getting so much positive feedback. I was reading about mods and was already thinking about getting a new trigger which eliminates the "deadspace" in the OEM trigger.

[lovbyts]

yeah you cant say much/anything bad about the Glock. Some people may like other guns better but the Glock is great.

I had a Ruger. After a while I hatted it. If I used bad/dirty amo it would jam. If I didnt clean it after every use it would jam. What good is a gun that might jam?

The Glock, throw it in a swamp for a week, pull it out and it will shoot like new

[DSM4Life]

yeah you cant say much/anything bad about the Glock. Some people may like other guns better but the Glock is great.

I had a Ruger. After a while I hatted it. If I used bad/dirty amo it would jam. If I didnt clean it after every use it would jam. What good is a gun that might jam?

The Glock, throw it in a swamp for a week, pull it out and it will shoot like new

The reliability is what really sold me on this gun. If something were to happen the last thing i want is a gun jamming up on me.