Why is Western Society bending over backwards as to not "offend"?

**Flagg** · 12-03-2009, 10:25 AM

This thread is going to be about Muslims and why they seem to find displeasure in many things to the degree that if its offensive its totally unacceptable.

What got me onto this comes from a relatively disgruntlement from me from a housemate.

So I live in a house with two girls, one of them is a really good friend of mine and the 2nd girl moved in about a couple of months ago. She's from Africa and is a Muslim so fine, that doesn't bother me as I consider myself a fairly open minded kinda guy. Now before this girl moved in, for ages i'd been banging on about getting a dog. Then this girl moves in, and we mentioned about getting a dog to this girl with which she replied "No I don't like dogs". I was pretty stunned I mean, who doesn't like dogs. So I did some research and low and behold, DOGS ARE OFFENSIVE TO MUSLIMS, and I seriously didn't know this before.

Dogs, along with pigs, are considered dirty animals and black dogs are supposedly seen as evil. Stroking a dog is supposedly the equivalent of stroking a turd. So, we haven't got a dog as to not upset or offend our housemate but Goddamn it, WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE ON CRAP LIKE THIS? This is a minor example of something happening on a massive scale.

And no, I cant get a dog even out of spite forcing this girl to leave, my friend owns the house so is in effect my landlady as well and she really cant afford to be paying for the other bedroom which this other girl currently occupies

I don't get people that move to parts of the world where they know we have things like domesticated pet dogs and keep and eat pigs but expect us to simply stop all that because it will upset their feelings. Seeing as I study Animal Behaviour I can come up with several examples showing that dogs and especially pigs are very clean creatures.

I wouldn't mind Muslims migrating to Western Culture because they want to escape an arcaic world that doesn't belong in the 21st Century and want to be a part of modern times, but it doesn't half get my goat when Muslims migrate here and basically want Muslim beliefs BUT with the exceptional Western luxuries and facilities.

**elpropiotorvic** · 12-03-2009, 10:32 AM

i see ur point...but it wouldnt be valid if you would be living on your own...canada is about multiculturalism as well...and on the one hand is good, but yeah...multiculturalism itself is actually a small part of the problem..

Its not just muslims...its a lot of ppl....
my advice is get ahead and live on your own....

best

elprop

**Flagg** · 12-03-2009, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by elpropiotorvic

i see ur point...but it wouldnt be valid if you would be living on your own...canada is about multiculturalism as well...and on the one hand is good, but yeah...multiculturalism itself is actually a small part of the problem..

Its not just muslims...its a lot of ppl....
my advice is get ahead and live on your own....

best

elprop

It's not just sour grapes that someones crackpot faith prevents me from getting a dog, it's equally annoying that I feel forced to comply as to not rock the boat. Yeah sure i wont be living with this person forever and i'll have as many animals as I want in the future, but my main point is why The West in general is like this. It's a bullshit compromise in opinion and I cant bare political correctness.

**Mooseman33** · 12-03-2009, 10:39 AM

Flagg u know where i stand on this.
this topic really makes my blood boil.

they dont want anyother views pushed on them but have no problem pushing their bullshit on everyone.

**Flagg** · 12-03-2009, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mooseman33

Flagg u know where i stand on this.
this topic really makes my blood boil.

they dont want anyother views pushed on them but have no problem pushing their bullshit on everyone.

Well this is it. I mean as disagreeable as myself or you might find their beliefs and ways, you can bet your ass that if I was in a country that was predominately muslim I would adhere to those ways. It angers me that some muslims migrate here and then complain our ways. Do they generally not know what it was like or is it a case of "we complain enough then they'll concede", after all...who wants to rock the boat?

**Mooseman33** · 12-03-2009, 10:48 AM

thats the point.
they have found the ways to make society sit in the palm of their hands. they use our laws and rules against us.
they no we are to tolerent and do not want anyone to be offended or some 3 or 4 letter group will protest in the name of islam.
if u are in a muslim country and pull the shit they do here they will straight kill ur ass.
we have become to week, liberalism has destroyed our country and in essence is destroying the world. hell for that matter all politics are responsible.

muslims should not be allowed to practice their bullshit here, it should be a banned religion.

sidenote: if u want to read a amazing book about the muslim religion at its best, grab muslim Mafia, about C.A.I.R...great fvking book man..

**oscarjones** · 12-03-2009, 10:52 AM

Lots of people don't like dogs. Man I grew up on a farm and took care of a variety of animals and when I lived at home we always had multiple dogs and cats.

To be honest, I have a love hate relationship with animals... they are great company and I can take pleasure in taking care of one, but at the same time I probably wouldn't opt to have another pet such as a dog until I had a family or something.

My point is, some people just don't like dogs/animals. I think you should communicate with your roomy before jumping to the conclusion that it's some twisted western belief of hers.

**energizer bunny** · 12-03-2009, 10:54 AM

i agree 100% that if they are in our country they should be doing as we do!! simple.....if i went to there country i wouldnt expect to be able to do as i please....and i would follow there laws/rules and way of life......i wouldnt move there and try and build a Catholic Church!......shit id probably be killed for just mentioning it!!!!!

**oscarjones** · 12-03-2009, 10:55 AM

Also, America is about freedom. If you're Muslim, white, black, spanish, jewish, isreali whatever...

You're basically being incredibly hypocritical when you say that they should come here and adhere to our society without bias. Isn't our country about believing what you want, and thinking the way you'd like?

I mean hindus worship cattle... does that make them evil? Hell no man. It just means they are different and share a different view.

You're taking her potential belief that dogs are dirty and unaccepted as a personal attack against your love for them. We all share differences, learn to live with it.

**Flagg** · 12-03-2009, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

Lots of people don't like dogs. Man I grew up on a farm and took care of a variety of animals and when I lived at home we always had multiple dogs and cats.

To be honest, I have a love hate relationship with animals... they are great company and I can take pleasure in taking care of one, but at the same time I probably wouldn't opt to have another pet such as a dog until I had a family or something.

My point is, some people just don't like dogs/animals. I think you should communicate with your roomy before jumping to the conclusion that it's some twisted western belief of hers.

She said she wouldn't mind cats which ive learned are acceptible on the grounds of they clean themselves and bury their faeces (please I dont want this thread to turn into a cats vs dogs debate as I like both). Yes I could be jumping to conclusions and that it has nothing to do with faith but I know she doesn't drink alcohol when she goes out and it just seems pretty circumstantial to me.

**Mooseman33** · 12-03-2009, 11:00 AM

hidus do not want us to die for not following their beliefs.

muslims do.

Flagg, i would go get 5 dogs, a couple pot belly pigs..i would cook pork all day, smell the fvk out of the house.
but im a proven asshole..

have u asked her if her hate filled religion is the reason she does not want the dog? leave out the hate part but why not just talk to her about it man.

**oscarjones** · 12-03-2009, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Flagg

She said she wouldn't mind cats which ive learned are acceptible on the grounds of they clean themselves and bury their faeces (please I dont want this thread to turn into a cats vs dogs debate as I like both). Yes I could be jumping to conclusions and that it has nothing to do with faith but I know she doesn't drink alcohol when she goes out and it just seems pretty circumstantial to me.

Yeah well I don't drink, but it's for health reasons. I can't because I used to be an alcoholic and I feel better working out and training than partying nowadays anyway. But yeah maybe just communicate with her and find out her feelings better.

Dunno man I see where you're coming from. I used to live with room-mates and it sucked but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Originally Posted by Mooseman33

hidus do not want us to die for not following their beliefs.

muslims do.

Flagg, i would go get 5 dogs, a couple pot belly pigs..i would cook pork all day, smell the fvk out of the house.
but im a proven asshole..

have u asked her if her hate filled religion is the reason she does not want the dog? leave out the hate part but why not just talk to her about it man.

I think that's a pretty bad blanket statement Moose! I know a lot of Muslims who are peaceful and don't want to kill me lol. But the radical ones, yeah they can be mean and I don't agree with their standpoint on "infidels must die".

But seriously, I think with the stigma of war and all the terrorist fear our country has bread over the past 2 decades has maybe tainted our vision of what the Muslim culture is really like. They aren't all evil haha.

**Flagg** · 12-03-2009, 11:11 AM

@ Mooseman, lol I don't like any religion in general and I haven't been eating any pork related products, only cause im trying to eat a bit healthier!

@Oscar, I don't believe she is evil because she doesn't like dogs but you talk about being accepting and thats the great thing about the West and yeah, it is, but does it not bother you that only WE are accepting. We should accept and adjust our liberties so as to not upset a certain group? As for Hindus, yes they worship cattle but they dont kick up a huge fuss and say its offensive when we eat beef.

Yeah maybe I am taking it a little personally over the dog thing, it's not a permanant thing and I cant see her staying long anyways. She's pretty lazy and expects me and my friend to pretty much take the rubbish out, clean the place and complains if the toilet or shower is "disgusting" as if it should be soley on us to clean it. So I cant see her staying much longer for these reasons, but im just using this as an example in general. How often have you seen in the news about things being censored like a song or a product or even a cartoon because it's offensive to Muslims.

It just seems they are a very sensitive people. There are greater things in the world to be more concerned over than a Danish Cartoon.

**Hazard** · 12-03-2009, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by energizer bunny

i agree 100% that if they are in our country they should be doing as we do!! simple.....if i went to there country i wouldnt expect to be able to do as i please....and i would follow there laws/rules and way of life......i wouldnt move there and try and build a Catholic Church!......shit id probably be killed for just mentioning it!!!!!

you are completely right......

here's the problem...... you move over there...... build a catholic church..... and terrorists will blow it the fvck up.

We are a more advanced society..... more tolerant..... more leniant. This country was founded on the belief that one can practice any religion they wish. Thats fine...... If one wants to practice being muslim..... go for it. HOWEVER....... don't expect the rest of the country to conform to YOU.

I've said it before and i'll say it again..... my grandparents left belgium to start a new life in America. My grandfather knew some english - my grandmother knew NONE. They moved to america and the hard work began. My grandfather went out and made a living...... my grandmother was a housewife and learned english on her own. They didn't expect society to bend over and conform to them...... it wasn't like that back then.

~Haz~

**Mooseman33** · 12-03-2009, 11:19 AM

what has tainted our/my views is all the fvking killing and destruction that is done to Americans in the name of their god.
my views may be strong an/or wrong, but they are mine.
i think the world has no use for the muslim religion, it is a religion of hate.
our some peaceful, yes.

thats all i will pollute this thread with.

**gunslinger2** · 12-03-2009, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Mooseman33

Flagg u know where i stand on this.
this topic really makes my blood boil.

they dont want anyother views pushed on them but have no problem pushing their bullshit on everyone.

Exactly where I stand on it as well. "we want to be treated equal when we want to be and given special treatment the rest of the time."

**energizer bunny** · 12-03-2009, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Mooseman33

what has tainted our/my views is all the fvking killing and destruction that is done to Americans in the name of their god.
my views may be strong an/or wrong, but they are mine.
i think the world has no use for the muslim religion, it is a religion of hate.
our some peaceful, yes.

thats all i will pollute this thread with.

not just america moose....us british are getting shit on also..and so are many other european countries......

the way i see it.........every extremist in every religion should be killed!!.....they use religion as a means of doing as they please!!......my gran is a catholic and goes to church every sunday....she doesnt hurt no one....and there are millions of religious people who are the same..........its the lunatic minority that want to destroy us all..........BUT id bet my life..that if religion wasnt around these same crack pots would make other reasons to hate!!!.....ahhhhhhhhh hate them all!

**fizler** · 12-03-2009, 11:36 AM

Hang a big ass cross in your room or house somewhere. **** being PC, **** Muslims and all the bullshit they stand for.

**Flagg** · 12-03-2009, 11:49 AM

Freedom of speech, freedom of expression of speech gives a radical lunatic the right to stand on a box every Friday and declare death to the West, death to the UK and the US.....IN LONDON.

Personally i can't see how that is not deemed as treason, I mean thats directly threatening the security of our country and this person isn't deported because, oh and it's beautiful, he has the right to freedom of speech, even if it is hate filled.

**elpropiotorvic** · 12-03-2009, 11:49 AM

i see where all of u are coming from...and everyone has valid points..the thing is america is based on freedom ...and ok now its hurting us, but before catholicism killed a lot, I dont believe in any religion out there, just because I like the idea of always looking or achieving a better standard, and dont like anything that is "SET" and cant be changed or thought or interpreted in a different way because thats religion....so I choose to meditate and filter from every religion what i THINK its worth,....there are thousands of peacefulll muslims, and catholics and jews and A lot of other religions,,, but not everyone is the same ,,some go whacko,,,,some go even "satanic" thats their choice, the fact is the world is going whaco and i think it should be everyones best interest to be increasing peace, and non-violence, we cant just kill or ban everything that we dont like, that makes us no good, we must try to reach to those things that join us, and even if there is none, we must not cross the others space, (some will say muslims are crossing ours, but the truth is we are all human beings) we are citizens of this world, and we should raise our heads, salute our brothers and not bomb-each other out, i understand ur frustration flagg, thats their religion, i understand ur anger moose, but thats their point of view, instead of fighting agains something, i think we should strive for something better, like a state of communion or a state of mutual respect and non-violence

Increase the peace and livestrong !!

elprop

**elpropiotorvic** · 12-03-2009, 11:50 AM

btw some of u might want to edit the posts before this thread gets closed

**Mooseman33** · 12-03-2009, 11:58 AM

muslim threads always get locked with quickness.

there is no comunicating with people who want u to perish.
the catholics and other religions did that shit hundreds of years ago..thses fvkin muslims have not progressed, they act the same today as they did back then.
the world has progressed but these fvkin lowlifes want it their way or they will declare jihad and blow u the fvk up.
but they attack the innocent, they are the lowest form of life...

thats it, im done...

**drdeath613** · 12-03-2009, 12:04 PM

its funny iv known a few muslims that have had dogs even black pitbulls
every religion has its flaws its the people who read into it too much and follow every word
like its from there god himself

alot of people just dont understand religion is fake but even tho its fake every religion has guide lines to make u a better person and that was all it was ever ment to be

my aunt use to take me to church when i was just a kid even then i knew it was a crock jesus this god that buda hit Muslims god with a wiffle ball bat

just my 2 cents

**zimmy** · 12-03-2009, 12:25 PM

Alot of muslims i know have dogs too. Did she say that is the reason or are you just assuming after a few minutes of research? How would you like it if you said you didn't like something and she went ont he net and researched about bb's and assumed that is why.

**drdeath613** · 12-03-2009, 12:43 PM

pigs are by far clean there as dirty as they can get lol in fact on one of the jackass shows they show a pig drinking the pee as another is peeing

lol they roll around in there own poo eat out of there poo sleep in there poo
i dont care what studies u show in my mind i wouldnt eat that pig

side note i havent eaten pork in over 10 years

**Mooseman33** · 12-03-2009, 12:50 PM

bacon taste good...............hmmmmmmmmm

i love pig, i will eat them fvkers till the cows come home...then i will eat them..

bottom feeding seafood is just as gross, but dam tasty...

**drdeath613** · 12-03-2009, 12:56 PM

iv never been a pork or sea food lover and i find it hard as all hell to eat tuna

**paulzane** · 12-03-2009, 01:08 PM

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace
"He who fights that Islam should be superior fights in Allah's cause"
Muhammad, prophet of Islam

2009.12.02 (Islamabad, Pakistan) - A young man straps explosives to his body and detonates at the entrance of a naval complex, killing two security guards.
2009.12.01 (Bosasso, Somalia) - Suspected hardliners toss a grenade into a movie theater, leaving two patrons dead from shrapnel injury.
2009.12.01 (Swat, Pakistan) - Islamic fundamentalists murder the head of a local peace committee.
2009.12.01 (Orakzai, Pakistan) - Three tribal leaders are assassinated by Sunni terrorists.
2009.12.01 (Swat, Pakistan) - A teen suicide bomber murders a lawmaker inside his home.
2009.11.30 (Mosul, Iraq) - Muslim gunmen ambush a car carrying a family from a religious minority. The father is killed. Two women and a child are injured.

**spywizard** · 12-03-2009, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Flagg

Well this is it. I mean as disagreeable as myself or you might find their beliefs and ways, you can bet your ass that if I was in a country that was predominately muslim I would adhere to those ways. It angers me that some muslims migrate here and then complain our ways. Do they generally not know what it was like or is it a case of "we complain enough then they'll concede", after all...who wants to rock the boat?

proof is found in modern and older history..

Go to most of the middle east with a printed bible and see what happens to you.. God save you because you will die..

**paulzane** · 12-03-2009, 01:14 PM

Since 9/11 there have been 14,462 deadly attacks by Islamic terrorists throughout the world!

How many by Christian or Buddists or Hindus or others???

I am sure you can figure that question out yourselves!!

**drdeath613** · 12-03-2009, 01:15 PM

The Christian Wars

These words have, in the history of Christianity, been enacted in bloody reality many times - starting when an important political rebellion against the Roman Catholic Church took on a religious slant - leading to the split in European Christendom between Catholic and Protestant. This split sparked off a series of religious wars which were ultimately to be responsible for the death of nearly a third of the entire White race.

The Reformation is the name given to this 16th century religious uprising. Its major outpouring happened in the middle of the Renaissance, there can be little doubt that the two events were linked: added to this was a political problem which the countries in Northern Europe had with the all powerful role the pope had assumed from Rome.

Emerging European nationalism objected to the fact that the pope - usually an Italian - had to approve the appointment of any head of state everywhere else in Europe. The pope's ability to even charge tax from foreign countries to support the Church headquarters in Rome also irked those living thousands of miles from Rome. It has been estimated that the Church ended up owning as much as one third of all the land in Europe in this manner: what the various national states must have secretly thought of this does not need to be imagined.

The Anti-Pope

The Catholic Church, while pretending to serve the Christian god only, itself betrayed its political agenda when a dispute over succession to the papal throne erupted between the Italians and the French. In an event known as the Great Schism of 1378, the French set up their pope, Clement VII, in Avignon; while the Italians installed Urban VI in Rome.

Both popes then proceeded to excommunicate each other from the church. Finally the dispute was resolved in 1415, when both popes were thrown out of their jobs and one new pope set up in Rome. The authority of the Church was severely reduced by the farcical proceedings, and many Europeans saw for the first time that the popes were all too human and lusted after power more than service to their god.

Dissolution of the Pope's Authority

The first steps towards the breakdown of the power of the Roman Catholic Church were in fact taken in England: a series of laws issued in that country from 1279 to 1352, prevented the church from overriding the local authorities by taking land and allocating it to the Church. The right of the Church clergy to act as judges in criminal and civil matters was also removed by these laws.

ENGLISH REFORMER John Wycliffe ATTACKS CATHOLICS

In the 14th Century, an English clergyman, John Wycliffe, openly attacked the sale of indulgences by the Catholic Church (whereby sinners could buy forgiveness from the Church - a nice way of earning even more money for the Church's coffers), arguing forgiveness could not be bought for a few coins. Wycliffe also translated the Bible into English and delivered his sermons in English, rather than the Latin used by the Catholics.

BOHEMIAN John Huss SPARKS MASSACRES

Wycliffe's ideas attracted a great following in Central Europe. In Bohemia, a local clergyman by the name of John Huss espoused a particularly fiery anti-Catholicism. Huss was duly executed as a heretic, and his followers then became involved in a religious war with a Catholic army: ultimately resulting in the massacre of several thousand of Huss' followers during the time known as the Hussite rebellion of 1415 - a foretaste of what was to come.

France, CATHOLICISM and the Continent

A treaty signed between the French king and the pope in 1516, placed the Catholic Church in France in a subservient role to the monarchy, while similar treaties with the rulers of other countries in Europe also slowly ate at the power of the pope, creating the political conditions under which theologians could start differing with the Catholic dogma without fear of being seized by the church police.

Thus although the Reformation is formally classed as having begun with the rebellion led by the German clergyman Martin Luther in 1517, the socio-political conditions which caused the rebellion had been in existence for at least 150 years before Luther.

Above: A woodcut from Luther's time shows the Catholic Church selling indulgences, or "instant forgiveness" in a German market place.

The German Reformation

Martin Luther (1482-1546), was a German Catholic clergyman who visited Rome in 1501 and was shocked by what he saw: in his words, the worldliness of the papal court. Appointed Professor of Scripture at Wittenberg University, Luther rejected the idea that the pope was infallible and appointed by god - his own eyes had told him this could not be so.

In 1517, he publicly announced his ideas by writing them down into the famous 95 Theses and nailing them to the door at the Wittenberg Church: this act caused alarm throughout Catholic Germany and to Rome itself, given Luther's stature in the theocratic community. Luther was ordered to retract his attacks on the Catholic Church, but this caused him to become even more outspoken. The pope then sent him a written threat of expulsion from the Church (called a bull) - which Luther publicly burnt in 1520.

This sent the Catholics into a fury: the Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V and numerous other Catholic clergymen held a meeting in the town of Worms (called the Diet of Worms) and ordered Luther to recant. He refused and went underground, hiding in Wartburg castle, which belonged to a sympathetic noble. There he wrote pamphlets further espousing his views and started translating the Bible into German.

Above: Martin Luther: by objecting to the corrupt practices of the Catholic Church, he managed to spark off a massive inter-White war between Catholics and those who protested, the Protestants.

Lutheranism was supported by the north German princes, many lower order clergy and large numbers of ordinary Germans, who saw it as an opportunity to gain independence from Rome.

The First Christian War 1524 -1525

The Catholics did not take the rebellion lying down: the first Christian war, called the Peasants War, broke out between Catholic and Lutheran followers in 1524. This uprising was used as an excuse by many feudal peasants to rise up against their conditions of servitude, bound as they were to many nobles and the Church for taxes.

The peasants were defeated in 1525, but this did not end the Lutheran rebellion. A truce was reached between the followers of Lutheranism and Catholicism at a meeting in the city of Speyer (known as the Diet of Speyer) in 1526, when it was agreed in principle that those who wanted to worship in the way that Luther espoused, were free to do so.

However, in 1529, the Catholics unilaterally rejected the agreement. The Lutherans protested the turnaround: and from then on the anti-Catholic movement became known as protest-ants, or Protestants.

The Second Christian War 1546 - 1555

The Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V, was then diverted from the domestic political scene by the march into Central Europe by the non-White Ottomans: he hurried off to fight in Southeastern Europe, only returning in 1546. Upon his return, he decided to deal militarily directly with the Protestants: in ******** with a papal army, he made formal war against the Protestant nobles and their supporters.

After a bloody civil war lasting nine years, the two sides finally made peace in 1555, with the treaty of Augsburg. In terms of the peace, the rulers of the approximately 300 Germans states were free to choose if they wanted to be Catholic or Protestant. Lutheranism was followed by about half of the population, and finally gained official recognition.

The Reformation in Scandinavia

In contrast to Germany, the Reformation in Scandinavia was peaceful. The kings of Denmark and Sweden were, probably for reasons of political independence more than anything else, early converts and openly supported the Protestants.

In 1536, a national assembly held in Copenhagen abolished the authority of the Catholic bishops throughout Denmark, Norway and Iceland. Sweden officially adopted Protestantism in 1529.

the Third Christian War 1529 -1531 - The Reformation in Switzerland

The Reformation in Switzerland was led by the Swiss pastor Huldreich Zwingli (1484 - 1531) in Zurich. After launching his campaign against Catholicism in 1518, Zwingli managed to persuade the town of Zurich to adopt his views and by 1525, many of the strictures of Roman Catholicism had been rejected - all with the legal sanction of the town council.

Other Swiss towns, such as Basel and Bern, adopted similar reforms, but the conservative peasantry of the forest cantons adhered to Roman Catholicism. Two short Christian Wars erupted in 1529 and 1531, with Zwingli himself being killed during the latter. In terms of a peace treaty, each Swiss canton was allowed to choose between Catholicism and Protestantism.

In 1536, a French Protestant, John Calvin, settled in Geneva after having been forced to flee his own Catholic country. Through his teachings and work Calvin managed to take Protestantism to new extremes: over-compensating for the worldly excesses of Catholicism, Calvin and his followers (Calvinists) forbid all forms of entertainment and regulated even the dress of ordinary people. In a fit of ecclesiastical zeal (which has only been equaled by later equally fanatic Muslim nations), dancing, card playing, gambling and other recreations were forbidden in Geneva; those caught breaking these rules were routinely put to death.

Calvin organized the diverse thought steams of Protestantism into a coherent whole: his influence helped create the churches later be known as the Reformed religions, in Scotland, France and in the Americas.

the Fourth Christian War 1562 - 1598 - The Reformation in France

As Luther's teachings spread into France, the Catholic inclined monarchy, although nominally independent from Rome already, cracked down on the Protestant movement - more out of a fear of political subversion.

Many leading Protestants fled to Switzerland - only to stage a return around 1567, to launch a full scale evangelical campaign. This campaign culminated two years later in the formal organization of the Protestant church - modeled on the Calvinist line - in Paris in 1569. The followers of this church became known as Huguenots.

Inevitably, it was not long before the Christian wars spread to France: a series of violent clashes erupted which lasted 36 years, from 1562 to 1598. One of the most infamous incidents of this Christian war was the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, in which thousands of unsuspecting Huguenots were massacred in 1572.

Above: St. Bartholomew's day Massacre in Paris, 1572. Protestants are killed by Catholics.

Then the French king Henry IV, himself sympathetic to the Protestants, issued the Edict of Nantes in 1598, officially tolerating Protestantism in France. This Edict was however revoked in 1685, and Protestants were either killed or driven out of the country completely.

The Reformation in the Netherlands

The spread of Protestantism in the Netherlands was countered by the public burning of Luther's books and the imposition in 1522, of the Inquisition by the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. These suppressive measures were however unsuccessful, and by 1550, the north of the Netherlands were solidly Protestant: the southern provinces (later to become Belgium) remained overwhelmingly Catholic.

The adoption of Calvinism by the Dutch had an important side effect: they rebelled against the Catholic Spanish who had occupied the Netherlands since the early 16th century. A Spanish Catholic/Dutch Protestant war broke out which was not only fought on religious grounds, but also with nationalistic fervor as part of a conflict which came to be know as the Thirty Years War.

This war started in earnest in 1568 and continued until 1648, when Spain was forced to abandon the Netherlands in terms of the Treaty of Westphalia.

the Fifth Christian War 1560-1567 - The Reformation in Scotland

In Scotland, the ideology of Protestantism fell upon receptive ears, and repression from the Catholic English monarchy only served to spur on Scottish nationalism and reinforce the belief that the Catholic Church was not acting in the interests of the Scots.

The final break with Catholicism came with the appearance of the Calvinist follower John Knox, who in 1560, persuaded the Scottish Parliament to formally adopt Protestantism. The Parliament then started the Scottish Presbyterian church. The Roman Catholic Mary, Queen of Scots, declared herself opposed to the new church, and launched a seven year long war in an attempt to suppress it. She lost, and was forced to flee to England.

The Reformation in England

Although counted as a Protestant church, the origin of the Anglican Church in fact began with the very non-religious marital affairs of the English King Henry VIII. Henry wished to divorce his wife, Catherine of Aragon (daughter of king Ferdinand of Spain) because the marriage had not produced a male heir.

His marriage to Catherine would have been illegal under normal circumstances: she was the widow of his brother, and special papal permission was required before Henry was allowed to marry her.

After breaking the rules to marry Henry and Catherine, the pope then refused to divorce them: Henry went ahead anyway and got the Archbishop of Canterbury to pronounce his divorce from Catherine. The pope then expelled Henry from the church.

Henry responded by getting the English Parliament to declare the English sovereign and his successors as the head of the English church. In this way the Anglican church was established, in a spectacularly non-religious way.

The Catholic monasteries were then suppressed and their property turned over to the Royal purse. These acts did not mean that Henry welcomed Protestantism himself: on the contrary, he further enacted the Act of Six Articles in 1539, which specifically declared it a heresy to deny the main tenets of Catholicism.

As a result many Lutherans were burned at the stake as heretics, while at the same time those Catholics who refused to accept that the English king was now the head of the church in England, were also executed.

It was only in 1547, that the Act of Six Articles was repealed by Henry's successor, Edward VI, who also invited Protestant missionaries into England.

Queen Mary I (Bloody Mary) attempted, however, to restore Roman Catholicism as the state religion, and during her reign many Protestants were burned at the stake. Then Queen Elizabeth I restored Protestantism in 1563, and the Catholics were in turn persecuted.

A number of Britons were not happy with the close similarities between Catholicism and Anglicanism, and formed a number of breakaway sects, called Puritans, Quakers and host of others. Many of these sects were despised equally by both Catholics and Protestants, and a small number of Protestant extremists eventually left England to become the founding fathers of White America.

The Sixth Christian War - The Thirty Years War 1618 -1648

The greatest Christian War of all was the Thirty Years' War which ran from 1618 until 1648. Starting in Bohemia with a localized conflict between Catholics and Protestants, it provided an opportunity for a number of major European countries to attack each other, based mainly on religious affiliation, using Germany as a convenient battleground.

Armed Divisions EMERGE

Despite official religious toleration being established by the Peace of Augsburg in 1555, the Catholics and Protestants in Germany still tried every now and then to destroy each other. Tensions were aggravated during the reign of the Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II (1576-1612).

Protestant churches in many parts of Germany were destroyed and restrictions were placed on the rights of Protestants to worship freely. In response, the Protestant princes and states banded together in a formal military ******** known as the Evangelical Union in 1608.

The Catholics responded by forming the Catholic League in 1609, and a renewed conflict between the two sides became inevitable.

DEFENESTRATION OF PRAGUE - CATHOLICS THROWN Out the Window

The Protestants in Bohemia struck first: in May 1618, the Protestants of Prague invaded the royal palace, seized two of the Catholic German king's ministers, and threw them out of an upstairs window.

This act, known as the Defenestration of Prague, was the beginning of a national Protestant uprising. The Protestant forces achieved numerous initial successes, and the rebellion swiftly spread to other parts of the Habsburg dominions. For a brief period early in 1619, even Vienna, the Habsburg capital, was threatened by Evangelical Union armies.

However, the Protestants themselves were divided: an attempt to install the Bohemian prince, a Calvinist, as a new king of Germany, alienated the Lutheran Germans, who then withdrew from the Evangelical Union, objecting to a Calvinist king as much as a Catholic king.

Taking advantage of the Protestant dissension, the Catholics assumed the offensive and defeated the Bohemian Protestants in November 1620 at the Battle of Weisserberg near Prague. Thousands of Protestants, combatants or not, were then killed out of hand, with Protestantism being formally outlawed in Bohemia.

Despite a determined Protestant resurgence, which saw a Catholic army being defeated at the April 1622 Battle of Wiesloch, the Catholics had, by 1624, managed to kill most of the Protestants of weapon bearing age, and Bohemia was returned to the Catholic held territories.

PROTESTANT Danes INVADE - DEFEATED BY CATHOLICS

The next phase of the Thirty Years' War saw the first foreign intervention: in 1625, King Christian IV of Denmark, invaded Saxony in support of the Protestant German states, encountering little resistance until a combined German Catholic army engaged the Danes at the Battle of Dessau in 1626. The Danes were defeated: the Catholics followed up their victory with another Danish defeat in August of that year at Lutter am Barenberge, Germany.

The Danes fled back north, and the Catholic armies set about pillaging, looting and destroying every Protestant north German town they seized. Catholic victory seemed complete: in March 1629, the Catholic king issued the Edict of Restitution which effectively nullified all Protestant titles to all Roman Catholic property expropriated since the Peace of Augsburg in 1555.

The German Protestant city of Magdeburg then rose in revolt: it was besieged by a German Catholic army and crushed in May 1631, with every single Protestant inhabitant - tens of thousands of people - being massacred by the victorious Catholics. The city was also virtually burned to the ground in the looting that followed.

PROTESTANT SWEDES INVADE - DEFEAT CATHOLICS

The defeat of the Danes then provided for the next round of foreign Protestant intervention: the Swedes. Zealous Lutherans came to the aid of the suppressed north German Lutheran states, with an invasion of the German coast in 1630.

The Swedes won a number of battles against the Catholics in quick succession: the last of these, the Battle of Breitenfeld (now Leipzig), fought in September 1630, saw a large part of the Catholic army, over 6000 men, killed. The Swedes then advanced into southern Germany, moving the theater of conflict onto Catholic lands for the first time.

By 1632, the Swedes had defeated another Catholic army on the banks of the Lech River and had captured Munich itself, capital of staunchly Catholic Bavaria. The Catholics responded by launching an invasion of Protestant Saxony in 1632: the Catholic and Protestant armies then spent a considerable amount of time and effort chasing each other round different parts of Germany, all the time laying waste to any towns in their way which happened to belong to the wrong branch of whichever Christian army passed through it.

Finally the Swedes caught up with the Catholics in November 1632, and the two sides engaged each other at the Battle of Lutzen. During this battle the Swedish king, Gustav, was killed, but the Protestants still won the day, and the Catholics were forced to retreat. All of Bavaria was then overrun by the Protestant armies, harried only by Catholic attacks in Silesia.

Then the Catholic forces staged a dramatic comeback at the battle of Nordlingen in September 1634: the Swedes were routed and Protestant resistance collapsed as quickly as it had arisen. A peace treaty was concluded in 1635, which saw the Swedes withdraw the remnants of their army and which contained minor concessions to the Saxon Lutherans.

Left: The Thirty Years War: the Swedish Protestant king, Gustav Adolphus, receives the keys of Munich after taking the town. A third of all Germany was destroyed in this Christian originated war.

SECULAR FRENCH INVASION

The final phase of the Thirty Years' War was the only part of the conflict which was not primarily driven by religious conflict but by political divisions between France and Germany. The dramatic turnaround in the course of the war saw the German Catholic House of Habsburg relaunched into a position of prominence in Central Europe. France, under the House of Bourbon, was also Catholic, but simultaneously extremely alarmed at the increasing power of the House of Habsburg, particularly after the victories over the Protestant German states.

By this time, through intermarriage, the House of Habsburg surrounded France on three sides: Spain, the Netherlands and Germany itself. The French took the initiative to try and destroy this encirclement by the Habsburgs, and in May 1635 declared war against Spain.

In the resultant confusion, the Protestant powers once again intervened, and Germany itself reverted to a battlefield where Swedes, German Catholics, German Protestants, Dutch Protestants , Austrians and French all fought each other.

The most significant battle of this period was fought at Wittstock in October 1636, when a Swedish Protestant force defeated an Austrian force, badly depleting Habsburg power in the country as a whole. In the same year, the French gained the upper hand against the Spanish, while by 1638 the Catholic Germans were defeated at Rheinfelden in March of that year. Between 1642 and 1645, the Swedes overran Denmark, which had in the interim become allied with the Catholics, and ravaged large sections of western Germany and Austria.

CATHOLIC BAVARIA SURRENDERS TO CATHOLIC FRANCE

Major battles continued between the various armies through to 1647, when the French army managed to invade and hold Bavaria: the Bavarian king, Maximilian I, then dropped out of the war, concluding a separate peace with Sweden and France, known as the Truce of Ulm, in March of that year.

Despite this, the overall Catholic German king, Ferdinand II, refused to surrender. Fighting continued in fits and starts in Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Spain and Italy until 1648. In that year the war took a decisive turn; the Bavarians re-entered the war on the Catholic side - but a French army inflicted a crushing defeat upon a combined Austro-Bavarian force in May 1648.

The Swedes then laid siege to the German king's home city of Prague; Munich was then besieged once again by a French and Swedish force; Vienna itself came under threat. The overwhelming run of defeats finally brought the war to a conclusion: all sides signed the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, bringing to an end that Christian War.

THIRTY YEARS WAR ENDS WITH PEACE OF WESTPHALIA

The Peace of Westphalia, signed in 1648, fundamentally influenced the history of Europe. Switzerland and the Netherlands were established as independent states; the Holy Roman Empire of the German kings was dramatically loosened, preventing German unification for another two hundred years, and France was left as the major continental power in Western Europe.

Racial Consequences of the Thirty Years' War - ONE THIRD OF GERMAN POPULATION KILLED

The racial consequences of the Christian Wars, and in particular the Thirty Years' War, were vast. The German population was reduced by at least one third, and probably more: when combined with the effects of the Great Plague of the 1300s, the German population actually shrunk by over 50 per cent in the course of 300 years: a massive decline which, if avoided, would certainly have changed the course of world history.

When the history of the Christian Wars is read in conjunction with the 20th century conflict in Ireland; the torture and lunacy of parts of the Inquisition; the suppression of learning and science caused by the Christian Dark Ages; and the division the White populations into opposing Christian camps in even supposedly secular countries such as North America; then no other conclusion is possible except to say that the introduction of Christianity has to count as the single greatest ideological catastrophe to ever strike Europe.

**paulzane** · 12-03-2009, 01:27 PM

Yes well done drdeath ... most of that stuff is ancient history and finished about 400 years ago!

What I quoted above has been since 9/11

**Mooseman33** · 12-03-2009, 01:36 PM

christianity has evolved away fom this.

muslims have not and never will.

there is no comparing them in todays world.

***D7M*** · 12-03-2009, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by drdeath613

The Christian Wars

These words have, in the history of Christianity, been enacted in bloody reality many times - starting when an important political rebellion against the Roman Catholic Church took on a religious slant - leading to the split in European Christendom between Catholic and Protestant. This split sparked off a series of religious wars which were ultimately to be responsible for the death of nearly a third of the entire White race.

The Reformation is the name given to this 16th century religious uprising. Its major outpouring happened in the middle of the Renaissance, there can be little doubt that the two events were linked: added to this was a political problem which the countries in Northern Europe had with the all powerful role the pope had assumed from Rome.

Emerging European nationalism objected to the fact that the pope - usually an Italian - had to approve the appointment of any head of state everywhere else in Europe. The pope's ability to even charge tax from foreign countries to support the Church headquarters in Rome also irked those living thousands of miles from Rome. It has been estimated that the Church ended up owning as much as one third of all the land in Europe in this manner: what the various national states must have secretly thought of this does not need to be imagined.

The Anti-Pope

The Catholic Church, while pretending to serve the Christian god only, itself betrayed its political agenda when a dispute over succession to the papal throne erupted between the Italians and the French. In an event known as the Great Schism of 1378, the French set up their pope, Clement VII, in Avignon; while the Italians installed Urban VI in Rome.

Both popes then proceeded to excommunicate each other from the church. Finally the dispute was resolved in 1415, when both popes were thrown out of their jobs and one new pope set up in Rome. The authority of the Church was severely reduced by the farcical proceedings, and many Europeans saw for the first time that the popes were all too human and lusted after power more than service to their god.

Dissolution of the Pope's Authority

The first steps towards the breakdown of the power of the Roman Catholic Church were in fact taken in England: a series of laws issued in that country from 1279 to 1352, prevented the church from overriding the local authorities by taking land and allocating it to the Church. The right of the Church clergy to act as judges in criminal and civil matters was also removed by these laws.

ENGLISH REFORMER John Wycliffe ATTACKS CATHOLICS

In the 14th Century, an English clergyman, John Wycliffe, openly attacked the sale of indulgences by the Catholic Church (whereby sinners could buy forgiveness from the Church - a nice way of earning even more money for the Church's coffers), arguing forgiveness could not be bought for a few coins. Wycliffe also translated the Bible into English and delivered his sermons in English, rather than the Latin used by the Catholics.

BOHEMIAN John Huss SPARKS MASSACRES

Wycliffe's ideas attracted a great following in Central Europe. In Bohemia, a local clergyman by the name of John Huss espoused a particularly fiery anti-Catholicism. Huss was duly executed as a heretic, and his followers then became involved in a religious war with a Catholic army: ultimately resulting in the massacre of several thousand of Huss' followers during the time known as the Hussite rebellion of 1415 - a foretaste of what was to come.

France, CATHOLICISM and the Continent

A treaty signed between the French king and the pope in 1516, placed the Catholic Church in France in a subservient role to the monarchy, while similar treaties with the rulers of other countries in Europe also slowly ate at the power of the pope, creating the political conditions under which theologians could start differing with the Catholic dogma without fear of being seized by the church police.

Thus although the Reformation is formally classed as having begun with the rebellion led by the German clergyman Martin Luther in 1517, the socio-political conditions which caused the rebellion had been in existence for at least 150 years before Luther.

Above: A woodcut from Luther's time shows the Catholic Church selling indulgences, or "instant forgiveness" in a German market place.

The German Reformation

Martin Luther (1482-1546), was a German Catholic clergyman who visited Rome in 1501 and was shocked by what he saw: in his words, the worldliness of the papal court. Appointed Professor of Scripture at Wittenberg University, Luther rejected the idea that the pope was infallible and appointed by god - his own eyes had told him this could not be so.

In 1517, he publicly announced his ideas by writing them down into the famous 95 Theses and nailing them to the door at the Wittenberg Church: this act caused alarm throughout Catholic Germany and to Rome itself, given Luther's stature in the theocratic community. Luther was ordered to retract his attacks on the Catholic Church, but this caused him to become even more outspoken. The pope then sent him a written threat of expulsion from the Church (called a bull) - which Luther publicly burnt in 1520.

This sent the Catholics into a fury: the Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V and numerous other Catholic clergymen held a meeting in the town of Worms (called the Diet of Worms) and ordered Luther to recant. He refused and went underground, hiding in Wartburg castle, which belonged to a sympathetic noble. There he wrote pamphlets further espousing his views and started translating the Bible into German.

Above: Martin Luther: by objecting to the corrupt practices of the Catholic Church, he managed to spark off a massive inter-White war between Catholics and those who protested, the Protestants.

Lutheranism was supported by the north German princes, many lower order clergy and large numbers of ordinary Germans, who saw it as an opportunity to gain independence from Rome.

The First Christian War 1524 -1525

The Catholics did not take the rebellion lying down: the first Christian war, called the Peasants War, broke out between Catholic and Lutheran followers in 1524. This uprising was used as an excuse by many feudal peasants to rise up against their conditions of servitude, bound as they were to many nobles and the Church for taxes.

The peasants were defeated in 1525, but this did not end the Lutheran rebellion. A truce was reached between the followers of Lutheranism and Catholicism at a meeting in the city of Speyer (known as the Diet of Speyer) in 1526, when it was agreed in principle that those who wanted to worship in the way that Luther espoused, were free to do so.

However, in 1529, the Catholics unilaterally rejected the agreement. The Lutherans protested the turnaround: and from then on the anti-Catholic movement became known as protest-ants, or Protestants.

The Second Christian War 1546 - 1555

The Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V, was then diverted from the domestic political scene by the march into Central Europe by the non-White Ottomans: he hurried off to fight in Southeastern Europe, only returning in 1546. Upon his return, he decided to deal militarily directly with the Protestants: in ******** with a papal army, he made formal war against the Protestant nobles and their supporters.

After a bloody civil war lasting nine years, the two sides finally made peace in 1555, with the treaty of Augsburg. In terms of the peace, the rulers of the approximately 300 Germans states were free to choose if they wanted to be Catholic or Protestant. Lutheranism was followed by about half of the population, and finally gained official recognition.

The Reformation in Scandinavia

In contrast to Germany, the Reformation in Scandinavia was peaceful. The kings of Denmark and Sweden were, probably for reasons of political independence more than anything else, early converts and openly supported the Protestants.

In 1536, a national assembly held in Copenhagen abolished the authority of the Catholic bishops throughout Denmark, Norway and Iceland. Sweden officially adopted Protestantism in 1529.

the Third Christian War 1529 -1531 - The Reformation in Switzerland

The Reformation in Switzerland was led by the Swiss pastor Huldreich Zwingli (1484 - 1531) in Zurich. After launching his campaign against Catholicism in 1518, Zwingli managed to persuade the town of Zurich to adopt his views and by 1525, many of the strictures of Roman Catholicism had been rejected - all with the legal sanction of the town council.

Other Swiss towns, such as Basel and Bern, adopted similar reforms, but the conservative peasantry of the forest cantons adhered to Roman Catholicism. Two short Christian Wars erupted in 1529 and 1531, with Zwingli himself being killed during the latter. In terms of a peace treaty, each Swiss canton was allowed to choose between Catholicism and Protestantism.

In 1536, a French Protestant, John Calvin, settled in Geneva after having been forced to flee his own Catholic country. Through his teachings and work Calvin managed to take Protestantism to new extremes: over-compensating for the worldly excesses of Catholicism, Calvin and his followers (Calvinists) forbid all forms of entertainment and regulated even the dress of ordinary people. In a fit of ecclesiastical zeal (which has only been equaled by later equally fanatic Muslim nations), dancing, card playing, gambling and other recreations were forbidden in Geneva; those caught breaking these rules were routinely put to death.

Calvin organized the diverse thought steams of Protestantism into a coherent whole: his influence helped create the churches later be known as the Reformed religions, in Scotland, France and in the Americas.

the Fourth Christian War 1562 - 1598 - The Reformation in France

As Luther's teachings spread into France, the Catholic inclined monarchy, although nominally independent from Rome already, cracked down on the Protestant movement - more out of a fear of political subversion.

Many leading Protestants fled to Switzerland - only to stage a return around 1567, to launch a full scale evangelical campaign. This campaign culminated two years later in the formal organization of the Protestant church - modeled on the Calvinist line - in Paris in 1569. The followers of this church became known as Huguenots.

Inevitably, it was not long before the Christian wars spread to France: a series of violent clashes erupted which lasted 36 years, from 1562 to 1598. One of the most infamous incidents of this Christian war was the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, in which thousands of unsuspecting Huguenots were massacred in 1572.

Above: St. Bartholomew's day Massacre in Paris, 1572. Protestants are killed by Catholics.

Then the French king Henry IV, himself sympathetic to the Protestants, issued the Edict of Nantes in 1598, officially tolerating Protestantism in France. This Edict was however revoked in 1685, and Protestants were either killed or driven out of the country completely.

The Reformation in the Netherlands

The spread of Protestantism in the Netherlands was countered by the public burning of Luther's books and the imposition in 1522, of the Inquisition by the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. These suppressive measures were however unsuccessful, and by 1550, the north of the Netherlands were solidly Protestant: the southern provinces (later to become Belgium) remained overwhelmingly Catholic.

The adoption of Calvinism by the Dutch had an important side effect: they rebelled against the Catholic Spanish who had occupied the Netherlands since the early 16th century. A Spanish Catholic/Dutch Protestant war broke out which was not only fought on religious grounds, but also with nationalistic fervor as part of a conflict which came to be know as the Thirty Years War.

This war started in earnest in 1568 and continued until 1648, when Spain was forced to abandon the Netherlands in terms of the Treaty of Westphalia.

the Fifth Christian War 1560-1567 - The Reformation in Scotland

In Scotland, the ideology of Protestantism fell upon receptive ears, and repression from the Catholic English monarchy only served to spur on Scottish nationalism and reinforce the belief that the Catholic Church was not acting in the interests of the Scots.

The final break with Catholicism came with the appearance of the Calvinist follower John Knox, who in 1560, persuaded the Scottish Parliament to formally adopt Protestantism. The Parliament then started the Scottish Presbyterian church. The Roman Catholic Mary, Queen of Scots, declared herself opposed to the new church, and launched a seven year long war in an attempt to suppress it. She lost, and was forced to flee to England.

The Reformation in England

Although counted as a Protestant church, the origin of the Anglican Church in fact began with the very non-religious marital affairs of the English King Henry VIII. Henry wished to divorce his wife, Catherine of Aragon (daughter of king Ferdinand of Spain) because the marriage had not produced a male heir.

His marriage to Catherine would have been illegal under normal circumstances: she was the widow of his brother, and special papal permission was required before Henry was allowed to marry her.

After breaking the rules to marry Henry and Catherine, the pope then refused to divorce them: Henry went ahead anyway and got the Archbishop of Canterbury to pronounce his divorce from Catherine. The pope then expelled Henry from the church.

Henry responded by getting the English Parliament to declare the English sovereign and his successors as the head of the English church. In this way the Anglican church was established, in a spectacularly non-religious way.

The Catholic monasteries were then suppressed and their property turned over to the Royal purse. These acts did not mean that Henry welcomed Protestantism himself: on the contrary, he further enacted the Act of Six Articles in 1539, which specifically declared it a heresy to deny the main tenets of Catholicism.

As a result many Lutherans were burned at the stake as heretics, while at the same time those Catholics who refused to accept that the English king was now the head of the church in England, were also executed.

It was only in 1547, that the Act of Six Articles was repealed by Henry's successor, Edward VI, who also invited Protestant missionaries into England.

Queen Mary I (Bloody Mary) attempted, however, to restore Roman Catholicism as the state religion, and during her reign many Protestants were burned at the stake. Then Queen Elizabeth I restored Protestantism in 1563, and the Catholics were in turn persecuted.

A number of Britons were not happy with the close similarities between Catholicism and Anglicanism, and formed a number of breakaway sects, called Puritans, Quakers and host of others. Many of these sects were despised equally by both Catholics and Protestants, and a small number of Protestant extremists eventually left England to become the founding fathers of White America.

The Sixth Christian War - The Thirty Years War 1618 -1648

The greatest Christian War of all was the Thirty Years' War which ran from 1618 until 1648. Starting in Bohemia with a localized conflict between Catholics and Protestants, it provided an opportunity for a number of major European countries to attack each other, based mainly on religious affiliation, using Germany as a convenient battleground.

Armed Divisions EMERGE

Despite official religious toleration being established by the Peace of Augsburg in 1555, the Catholics and Protestants in Germany still tried every now and then to destroy each other. Tensions were aggravated during the reign of the Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II (1576-1612).

Protestant churches in many parts of Germany were destroyed and restrictions were placed on the rights of Protestants to worship freely. In response, the Protestant princes and states banded together in a formal military ******** known as the Evangelical Union in 1608.

The Catholics responded by forming the Catholic League in 1609, and a renewed conflict between the two sides became inevitable.

DEFENESTRATION OF PRAGUE - CATHOLICS THROWN Out the Window

The Protestants in Bohemia struck first: in May 1618, the Protestants of Prague invaded the royal palace, seized two of the Catholic German king's ministers, and threw them out of an upstairs window.

This act, known as the Defenestration of Prague, was the beginning of a national Protestant uprising. The Protestant forces achieved numerous initial successes, and the rebellion swiftly spread to other parts of the Habsburg dominions. For a brief period early in 1619, even Vienna, the Habsburg capital, was threatened by Evangelical Union armies.

However, the Protestants themselves were divided: an attempt to install the Bohemian prince, a Calvinist, as a new king of Germany, alienated the Lutheran Germans, who then withdrew from the Evangelical Union, objecting to a Calvinist king as much as a Catholic king.

Taking advantage of the Protestant dissension, the Catholics assumed the offensive and defeated the Bohemian Protestants in November 1620 at the Battle of Weisserberg near Prague. Thousands of Protestants, combatants or not, were then killed out of hand, with Protestantism being formally outlawed in Bohemia.

Despite a determined Protestant resurgence, which saw a Catholic army being defeated at the April 1622 Battle of Wiesloch, the Catholics had, by 1624, managed to kill most of the Protestants of weapon bearing age, and Bohemia was returned to the Catholic held territories.

PROTESTANT Danes INVADE - DEFEATED BY CATHOLICS

The next phase of the Thirty Years' War saw the first foreign intervention: in 1625, King Christian IV of Denmark, invaded Saxony in support of the Protestant German states, encountering little resistance until a combined German Catholic army engaged the Danes at the Battle of Dessau in 1626. The Danes were defeated: the Catholics followed up their victory with another Danish defeat in August of that year at Lutter am Barenberge, Germany.

The Danes fled back north, and the Catholic armies set about pillaging, looting and destroying every Protestant north German town they seized. Catholic victory seemed complete: in March 1629, the Catholic king issued the Edict of Restitution which effectively nullified all Protestant titles to all Roman Catholic property expropriated since the Peace of Augsburg in 1555.

The German Protestant city of Magdeburg then rose in revolt: it was besieged by a German Catholic army and crushed in May 1631, with every single Protestant inhabitant - tens of thousands of people - being massacred by the victorious Catholics. The city was also virtually burned to the ground in the looting that followed.

PROTESTANT SWEDES INVADE - DEFEAT CATHOLICS

The defeat of the Danes then provided for the next round of foreign Protestant intervention: the Swedes. Zealous Lutherans came to the aid of the suppressed north German Lutheran states, with an invasion of the German coast in 1630.

The Swedes won a number of battles against the Catholics in quick succession: the last of these, the Battle of Breitenfeld (now Leipzig), fought in September 1630, saw a large part of the Catholic army, over 6000 men, killed. The Swedes then advanced into southern Germany, moving the theater of conflict onto Catholic lands for the first time.

By 1632, the Swedes had defeated another Catholic army on the banks of the Lech River and had captured Munich itself, capital of staunchly Catholic Bavaria. The Catholics responded by launching an invasion of Protestant Saxony in 1632: the Catholic and Protestant armies then spent a considerable amount of time and effort chasing each other round different parts of Germany, all the time laying waste to any towns in their way which happened to belong to the wrong branch of whichever Christian army passed through it.

Finally the Swedes caught up with the Catholics in November 1632, and the two sides engaged each other at the Battle of Lutzen. During this battle the Swedish king, Gustav, was killed, but the Protestants still won the day, and the Catholics were forced to retreat. All of Bavaria was then overrun by the Protestant armies, harried only by Catholic attacks in Silesia.

Then the Catholic forces staged a dramatic comeback at the battle of Nordlingen in September 1634: the Swedes were routed and Protestant resistance collapsed as quickly as it had arisen. A peace treaty was concluded in 1635, which saw the Swedes withdraw the remnants of their army and which contained minor concessions to the Saxon Lutherans.

Left: The Thirty Years War: the Swedish Protestant king, Gustav Adolphus, receives the keys of Munich after taking the town. A third of all Germany was destroyed in this Christian originated war.

SECULAR FRENCH INVASION

The final phase of the Thirty Years' War was the only part of the conflict which was not primarily driven by religious conflict but by political divisions between France and Germany. The dramatic turnaround in the course of the war saw the German Catholic House of Habsburg relaunched into a position of prominence in Central Europe. France, under the House of Bourbon, was also Catholic, but simultaneously extremely alarmed at the increasing power of the House of Habsburg, particularly after the victories over the Protestant German states.

By this time, through intermarriage, the House of Habsburg surrounded France on three sides: Spain, the Netherlands and Germany itself. The French took the initiative to try and destroy this encirclement by the Habsburgs, and in May 1635 declared war against Spain.

In the resultant confusion, the Protestant powers once again intervened, and Germany itself reverted to a battlefield where Swedes, German Catholics, German Protestants, Dutch Protestants , Austrians and French all fought each other.

The most significant battle of this period was fought at Wittstock in October 1636, when a Swedish Protestant force defeated an Austrian force, badly depleting Habsburg power in the country as a whole. In the same year, the French gained the upper hand against the Spanish, while by 1638 the Catholic Germans were defeated at Rheinfelden in March of that year. Between 1642 and 1645, the Swedes overran Denmark, which had in the interim become allied with the Catholics, and ravaged large sections of western Germany and Austria.

CATHOLIC BAVARIA SURRENDERS TO CATHOLIC FRANCE

Major battles continued between the various armies through to 1647, when the French army managed to invade and hold Bavaria: the Bavarian king, Maximilian I, then dropped out of the war, concluding a separate peace with Sweden and France, known as the Truce of Ulm, in March of that year.

Despite this, the overall Catholic German king, Ferdinand II, refused to surrender. Fighting continued in fits and starts in Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Spain and Italy until 1648. In that year the war took a decisive turn; the Bavarians re-entered the war on the Catholic side - but a French army inflicted a crushing defeat upon a combined Austro-Bavarian force in May 1648.

The Swedes then laid siege to the German king's home city of Prague; Munich was then besieged once again by a French and Swedish force; Vienna itself came under threat. The overwhelming run of defeats finally brought the war to a conclusion: all sides signed the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, bringing to an end that Christian War.

THIRTY YEARS WAR ENDS WITH PEACE OF WESTPHALIA

The Peace of Westphalia, signed in 1648, fundamentally influenced the history of Europe. Switzerland and the Netherlands were established as independent states; the Holy Roman Empire of the German kings was dramatically loosened, preventing German unification for another two hundred years, and France was left as the major continental power in Western Europe.

Racial Consequences of the Thirty Years' War - ONE THIRD OF GERMAN POPULATION KILLED

The racial consequences of the Christian Wars, and in particular the Thirty Years' War, were vast. The German population was reduced by at least one third, and probably more: when combined with the effects of the Great Plague of the 1300s, the German population actually shrunk by over 50 per cent in the course of 300 years: a massive decline which, if avoided, would certainly have changed the course of world history.

When the history of the Christian Wars is read in conjunction with the 20th century conflict in Ireland; the torture and lunacy of parts of the Inquisition; the suppression of learning and science caused by the Christian Dark Ages; and the division the White populations into opposing Christian camps in even supposedly secular countries such as North America; then no other conclusion is possible except to say that the introduction of Christianity has to count as the single greatest ideological catastrophe to ever strike Europe.

For future reference, you might want to check your sources a little better.

It's not so much mis-information, just historically superficial and frankly quite biased.

In case anyone is interested, this is where DrDeath copy and pasted that from: http://www.white-history.com/hwr43.htm

**drdeath613** · 12-03-2009, 01:54 PM

yes i understand that but my point is every religion has a dark side and its up to us to find a fault in it to say wait one damn minute thats not right

more wars start over religion then any other reason
should we condemn a whole race/religion for what a few do no i dont think its right

if were to make it as humans we have to learn that religion and its teaching are not perfect cause they were wrote by man and mans not perfect by any means

**Mooseman33** · 12-03-2009, 02:01 PM

if we are to make it as humans we must destroy the muslim religion.....

they are a threat to america and the rest of the world.........

**drdeath613** · 12-03-2009, 02:05 PM

yup i got it from there and it wasnt ment to be a perfect tail of history

and never said it was a 100% true everyone puts there own spin on things
but the fact of the mater is that it was just showing that ever religion has had there darkest days and thats something no one can deny

***D7M*** · 12-03-2009, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by drdeath613

yup i got it from there and it wasnt ment to be a perfect tail of history

and never said it was a 100% true everyone puts there own spin on things
but the fact of the mater is that it was just showing that ever religion has had there darkest days and thats something no one can deny

If everyone puts their own "spin on things", and we have no objective method for historical research, I'd say we're in some trouble. Certainly we have to 'know' some objective historical facts without subjective interpretations, right?

Anyway, sure every religion has had some messed up stuff. Religion isn't perfect, because man isn't perfect.

But your analogy fails because there is no correspondence between the beliefs and ideals of the Muslim religion (being discussed in this thread) to that of any other religion. And that's a historical fact.

**dangerous dan** · 12-03-2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mooseman33

if we are to make it as humans we must destroy the muslim religion.....

they are a threat to america and the rest of the world.........

i strongly agree

**drdeath613** · 12-03-2009, 03:43 PM

lol man im not going to fight about this

its just the fact that history 400/500/600 years old cant be 100% true and the reason being nothing could last that long and what has lasted thru the test of time wasnt in whole

its based off some fact and what archeology/anthropology/historians finds then based off the info they come to a conclusion of what happend

and yes historians have been found wrong with history only 200-300 years old
and some historians have there own spin on events that happend

and back to its the error of man cause mans not a perfect being

and just a fyi
Religious restrictions on the consumption of pork exist in both Muslim dietary laws (Halal) and Jewish dietary laws (Kashrut).

Among Christians, Seventh-day Adventists consider pork taboo, along with other foods forbidden by Jewish law. Many Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox groups also discourage pork consumption, although, with the exception of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the proscription is rarely enforced

its your right to think your way as it is mine you say my analogy fails because there is no correspondence between the beliefs and ideals of the Muslim religion (being discussed in this thread) to that of any other religion. And that's a historical fact.

and ill just say Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace
"He who fights that Islam should be superior fights in Allah's cause"
Muhammad, prophet of Islam

2009.12.02 (Islamabad, Pakistan) - A young man straps explosives to his body and detonates at the entrance of a naval complex, killing two security guards.
2009.12.01 (Bosasso, Somalia) - Suspected hardliners toss a grenade into a movie theater, leaving two patrons dead from shrapnel injury.
2009.12.01 (Swat, Pakistan) - Islamic fundamentalists murder the head of a local peace committee.
2009.12.01 (Orakzai, Pakistan) - Three tribal leaders are assassinated by Sunni terrorists.
2009.12.01 (Swat, Pakistan) - A teen suicide bomber murders a lawmaker inside his home.
2009.11.30 (Mosul, Iraq) - Muslim gunmen ambush a car carrying a family from a religious minority. The father is killed. Two women and a child are injured.

and what i posted was
1 showing how people kill in the name of there god/religion
2 how people over look there own religions dark history
3 how stupid some things are
4 the error of man/religion will be the end of us all unless we learn from the past mistakes
5 war is pointless no one really wins