Why is there EVIL?

[D7M]

Doesn't matter if you are theist, atheist, agnostic or whatever else.

(Though I think it's a tiny, tiny bit easier for a theist to answer this than an atheist).

What do you think?

And to be clear, I'm talking about any type of evil. The literature typically separates evil into Natural evils (Tsunami's, earthquakes, etc) and Moral evils (evils caused by the direct actions of an agent: murder, rape, etc.)

There's still some middle ground with things like Global Warming, which could be arguably caused by an agent, but is still a "natural" occurrence.

So why is there evil?

Or am I only one who thinks about things like this?

[Knockout_Power]

This kind of stuff (natural disasters) is a simple case of energy shifts. It is only a disaster because 'WE' deam it destrcuctive. It inconveniences and hurts us. These things happened long before humans were created to keep things in balance....

[Nooomoto]

Well if there was no evil, what would good do? Good would probably get bored and start being evil. Can't have one without the other!

[Knockout_Power]

and Moral evils (evils caused by the direct actions of an agent: murder, rape, etc.)

this comes down to simple human inability to control their own emotions. Some are so self entitled they believe that whatever they want is more important than the collective (ok Treckie nerds, dont go there)

Things like murders (depending on where in the world) again come down to no value for life. Here, murders are usually commited out of anger and/or jealousy. In others parts of the world there actually is no value on humna life so taking one isnt even considered morally wrong. How do you fight something like that?

[D7M]

This kind of stuff (natural disasters) is a simple case of energy shifts. It is only a disaster because 'WE' deam it destrcuctive. It inconveniences and hurts us. These things happened long before humans were created to keep things in balance....

I can kinda buy that, but we can imagine a world with ZERO natural 'evils'.

Where Tsunamis don't kill hundreds of thousands of people.

So, why do we have this kind of world, where things like that happen?

Why isn't some other way, like some idyllic existence?

And what about Moral evils?

[Knockout_Power]

Why isn't some other way, like some idyllic existence?

Ideal by who's standards... this almost sounds like one of those entitled statements (not slammin ya for it) where we feel we "deserve" a perfect world.... yes it would be great if nothing "bad" ever happened, but like Moto stated, if these things didnt exsist, we would redefine what was "evil" and soon the simplest shit like a car crash would then become catastrophic. Not saying it isnt, but not to the level it would become if there was nothing worse to compare it to.

[ironclad]

I'd have thought the Theist would have the problem with this Q, rather than the Atheist; if god exists then he is either unable or unwilling to intervene, making him impotent (not omnipotent) or malevolent.

Anyhoo, evil exists because people are bastards.
I want what you have, I am stronger, what is yours is now mine.
Resources are scarce.
We want power over others, we are territorial, we want our family to survive not others at our expense.

[D7M]

Well if there was no evil, what would good do? Good would probably get bored and start being evil. Can't have one without the other!

Significant contrast?

Like we wouldn't know what good is, if we didn't know evil?

this comes down to simple human inability to control their own emotions. Some are so self entitled they believe that whatever they want is more important than the collective (ok Treckie nerds, dont go there)

Things like murders (depending on where in the world) again come down to no value for life. Here, murders are usually commited out of anger and/or jealousy. In others parts of the world there actually is no value on humna life so taking one isnt even considered morally wrong. How do you fight something like that?

Yah, but that still doesn't explain why there is evil?

That just pushes the question one step back, so now the question is "why can't we control those emotions that cause us to do evil?"

Or, to put it another way:

How does that explain horrible individuals like Calligula, Hitler, Stalin, George W. Bush?

[Knockout_Power]

That just pushes the question one step back, so now the question is "why can't we control those emotions that cause us to do evil?"

haha, had to laugh at the GW Bush...

but this is exactly my point... who the fvck do we think we are that we can make the decisions to take anothers life? When I think about wars I just cant wrap my head around what is going through that persons mind to think that sending hundreds of thousands of people to their death is acceptable? What could possibly be worth it? Its murder to me...

End Rant, Im done, this will just piss me off and Im having a good day so far

[D7M]

I'd have thought the Theist would have the problem with this Q, rather than the Atheist; if god exists then he is either unable or unwilling to intervene, making him impotent (not omnipotent) or malevolent.

Anyhoo, evil exists because people are bastards.
I want what you have, I am stronger, what is yours is now mine.
Resources are scarce.
We want power over others, we are territorial, we want our family to survive not others at our expense.

Well, the (Christian) Theist has had 2,000 years of people thinking about this question before him, so he's gotta plenty to run with.

If evil exists because people are bastards, then why are people bastards?

In other words, is an anthropological constant that humans are just naturally evil bastards?

Because, no offense, but that seems like a pretty sucky view of humans.

[stack_it]

Love is evol lol.

[ironclad]

Natural disasters are not evil, they are what they are - unfortunate, tragic.
When we humanize these events we step on to the path of questioning gods will, why does he do these things, are we being punished, should we sacrifice goats or girls? Not helpful.
Disasters require active aid (money, medicine, scientific study) not passive aid (wishes, prayer, rabbits feet).

[ironclad]

Well, the (Christian) Theist has had 2,000 years of people thinking about this question before him, so he's gotta plenty to run with.

If evil exists because people are bastards, then why are people bastards?

In other words, is an anthropological constant that humans are just naturally evil bastards?

Because, no offense, but that seems like a pretty sucky view of humans.

Some human do suck. Some, fortunately.
Generally we are good, it's why we survive are a species. You scratch my back etc.. But some want more or a free ride, some have a bigger stick and want your spoils. Why should I hunt for my food if I can get my army to kill your men and take your food and women?

[Brewster]

If evil never existed
would good exist

[HitIt]

<---here's why

[A7X]

Every body is born with different weakness some are born with a bad temper and might cause them to act irrational and hurt or even kill somebody. Its all about controling and overcoming our weakness and becomeing a better person. With out evil than there would be no point to this life we wouldnt be abel to grow and become better people with out learning to over come the temptatoin to do wrong. Now natural disaters arent evil like has periviosly been stated, they are tradgic events but they alow us to show the good in us by helping the less fortunate people weather it been giveing money food help or support thourgh your prays. As of war, war in a ncessity we have to have war or there would be no peace. Not all war is bad some is but some we have to fight. And heres a cool quote

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Skyler]

Evil does not exist... only perception

[Swifto]

Evil does not exist... only perception

I thought that for a minute...

But then I thought about if a Lion ate a a buffalo's calf... Do you think the buffalo dad or mum would be pleased?

If evil is only percieved, the perception of it will change by the person/animal percieving it. The Lion does not think he's "evil" for eating a tiny helpless calf, he enjoy's his meal. Whilst the buffalo mum and dad think, f*ck it.

I agree.

[D7M]

Evil does not exist... only perception

Tell that to the father whose daughter was raped.

[Skyler]

Tell that to the father whose daughter was raped.

Again, that's just his perception, and what follows is an emotionally based response.
If someone agrees with the dad's perception, that does not mean that the same perception shared by multiple people is the evidence of real evil, it only shows that a similar perception is able to be shared by multiple people.

[Sicko]

It goes back to one of the oldest questions,"If a tree falls in the forrest and no one is there to hear it fall,does it make noise?" my point to this annalogy is natural catastrophies are only evil because we deem them to be.A volcano erupting, a flood etc are just ways of the earth evolving,healing, growing,how ever you want to label it.If we were not afffected by the "catastrophy" then it would just be an occurance.As far as humans being evil that is inherrent of our nature since Adam and eve,since Cain and able we have been taking and killing for what we want..nothing will ever change that since we have free will,Some will choose to live honestly and by our societies standards and some of us will choose to ignore these principles/guidlines that our laws/morals designate for us.Even the term "EVIL" is interpreted differently from person to person.For example I have no problem taking from an individual that has stolen from me.Eye for an eye,if you hurt me or my family,I will come at you 10 fold with vengance..Does that make me EVIL? In many peoples eyes the answer is yes.The Christians say "Vengance is mine thus sayith the Lord","Two wrongs dont make a right" but where is the line,how could we exist if there was no consiquence for actions? And what gives one man (government,police,courts) the right to punish for crimes over me or you,, whom the crimes were committed against?This is why I say that I lost faith in humanity a long time ago...Humans in general are frikkin evil..The good ones are the exception to the rule now a days...


Just my pecimistic .02

[D7M]

Again, that's just his perception, and what follows is an emotionally based response.
If someone agrees with the dad's perception, that does not mean that the same perception shared by multiple people is the evidence of real evil, it only shows that a similar perception is able to be shared by multiple people.

Thank God you're not in charge of making our laws

[Skyler]

Thank God you're not in charge of making our laws

I never said I don't think it's wrong, or that it should go unpunished.
The idea of "evil" though, is all based in perception.

[bruary17]

This kind of stuff (natural disasters) is a simple case of energy shifts. It is only a disaster because 'WE' deam it destrcuctive. It inconveniences and hurts us. These things happened long before humans were created to keep things in balance....

Tis true. The planet has gone through heating and cooling stages throughout it's existence. The difference now is that it's human induced. (Global Warming) We will self destruct eventually. Remeber the first Matrix? We are a locust devouring earths natural resources...and when we expend everything in a particular area....we move on looking for more...and we repeat the process. The GOV needs to stop spending money on bombs and start an aggressive council to save this planet.

[HitIt]

everything is based "in perception"..that's not an answer to the question tho...

it doesn't answer "why something exists"

people can act evil or good... it's up to the person... it's called "free will"

"evil" exists because we exist

[D7M]

I never said I don't think it's wrong, or that it should go unpunished.
The idea of "evil" though, is all based in perception.

Hmmm.

Ok. Well I would agree with the Greeks, and define evil as a privation of the Good.

But you're saying there's "evil" that is based on perception, and on the other hand, social/cultural mores that are not evil??

[HitIt]

may as well ask "why does fear exist?"

[Skyler]

Q: Why is there evil?
A: There is no evil, only perception.
HitIt: that's not an answer to the question tho

Answer to HitIt: Just because it's not (A)the answer you want (B)the answer you would give (C)an answer you would agree with
doesn't mean that it's not an answer

[D7M]

everything is based "in perception"..that's not an answer to the question tho...

it doesn't answer "why something exists"

people can act evil or good... it's up to the person... it's called "free will"

"evil" exists because we exist

So if human beings didn't exist, there wouldn't be an external reality (force, being, whatever) of evil?

may as well ask "why does fear exist?"

How so?

[HitIt]

I said it's not THE answer...

[D7M]

BTW, great discussion guys!

Thanks to all that shared their views.

[HitIt]

evil is doing this on an iphone... what a pita

[bruary17]

I thought that for a minute...

But then I thought about if a Lion ate a a buffalo's calf... Do you think the buffalo dad or mum would be pleased?

If evil is only percieved, the perception of it will change by the person/animal percieving it. The Lion does not think he's "evil" for eating a tiny helpless calf, he enjoy's his meal. Whilst the buffalo mum and dad think, f*ck it.

I agree.

You are speaking of the natural order of things. One can percieve the natural order of things to be evil, but the problem with that is there is no alterior motive in a lion when he eats a buffalo calf. He's not doing it out of spite or to punish the parents, he's doing it to eat/survive....how can something that's naturally correct be conceived as evil?

If a man breaks into someone's home and kills another person, that is morally incorrect.....Unlike the lion and calf...this is out of OUR natural order.

You can say perception dictates these laws, but there is a rooted moral manifestation in every one of us...is this perception? Or is this a script encoded in our consciousness by a divine character?

But my biggest question is where do girls pee from....?

[Skyler]

Hmmm.

Ok. Well I would agree with the Greeks, and define evil as a privation of the Good.

But you're saying there's "evil" that is based on perception, and on the other hand, social/cultural mores that are not evil??

I'm saying no that evil does not exist at all, in any realm or form. I have my opinions and views, just as everyone does. I personally feel that rape (as the example you gave) is wrong, and should be punished. I do not feel that way because it is evil, so my mind naturally rejects the way of evil. I feel that way because of the environment I have been born into and raised in. Right and Wrong, what is socially acceptable, what is taboo, etc. have all dramatically changed over the years, all depending on where you look in history, what part of the world, etc. In today's world, the taboo's, standards, morals, etc are all based on how society's value's have evolved over time. In the end, only one thing is constant and unchanging: Evil is held in perception

[HitIt]

btw, evil schmevil...i'm just havin fun with skyler

[D7M]

I'm saying no that evil does not exist at all, in any realm or form. I have my opinions and views, just as everyone does. I personally feel that rape (as the example you gave) is wrong, and should be punished. I do not feel that way because it is evil, so my mind naturally rejects the way of evil. I feel that way because of the environment I have been born into and raised in. Right and Wrong, what is socially acceptable, what is taboo, etc. have all dramatically changed over the years, all depending on where you look in history, what part of the world, etc. In today's world, the taboo's, standards, morals, etc are all based on how society's value's have evolved over time. In the end, only one thing is constant and unchanging: Evil is held in perception

But some things have remained as universally accepted acts that are morally unacceptable because they are against the common good, right?

Like murder, rape, theft.

I can't think of one example of any society in known history where these have changed.

So then those aren't just "evil" by perception, or evil because of societal norms and mores.

The only thing that seems to change, like peaks and valleys, is a society's views on sexuality.

[Skyler]

But some things have remained as universally accepted acts that are morally unacceptable because they are against the common good, right?

Like murder, rape, theft.

I can't think of one example of any society in known history where these have changed.

So then those aren't just "evil" by perception, or evil because of societal norms and mores.

The only thing that seems to change, like peaks and valleys, is a society's views on sexuality.

Lets look at murder. Yes it has always been wrong, but the generally accepted definition of murder is constantly shifting. A man "murders" another, then he is given the death penalty, which is not considered "murder", only "justice".
In an ancient society there is a drought, so the leaders of said society offer a sacrifice to the gods, in this case it is a virgin girl. This is not "murder" to them, but fast forward to the people reading about it in a history book, and it is "murder"
In this same way, certain things have always been wrong, but if we label it as something else, the exact same act is no longer wrong, it is in fact very good.

It all lies in perception

[Public Enemy]

Well natural evils are only evil because they take lifes. In my opinion its up to god what happens. Nature has always been wild. I think Moral evils on the other hand are a combination of lack of control, thinking your doing the right thing, people just not being raised right, etc..

[SomeRandomGuy]

Everything seems to be defined by comparing and contrasting it to societal norms. However, I believe that there are some built in instinctual perceptions that are hard wired that relate to good/evil. Even without comparison, some things evaluated in and of themselves apart from anything can still be decidedly evil. Kind of like why are there beautiful and ugly people? Are people perceived as ugly because society and/or the media conditioned you to see them that way? Or would you have seen them as ugly from the day you were born, before you had anything to compare/contrast their appearance to. I prefer to think that aesthetics are also a hard wired thing that isn't subject to conditioning. Some people have varied opinions on what is beautiful or anywhere in between, but most have the exact same opinion on what is ugly. Maybe this correlates to good/evil somehow. As in some people will have varied opinions on what is good and anywhere in between in the grey area, but most people will agree on what is truly evil.

Maybe we don't have all the answers... I know I don't.

[bruary17]

Everything seems to be defined by comparing and contrasting it to societal norms. However, I believe that there are some built in instinctual perceptions that are hard wired that relate to good/evil. Even without comparison, some things evaluated in and of themselves apart from anything can still be decidedly evil. Kind of like why are there beautiful and ugly people? Are people perceived as ugly because society and/or the media conditioned you to see them that way? Or would you have seen them as ugly from the day you were born, before you had anything to compare/contrast their appearance to. I prefer to think that aesthetics are also a hard wired thing that isn't subject to conditioning. Some people have varied opinions on what is beautiful or anywhere in between, but most have the exact same opinion on what is ugly. Maybe this correlates to good/evil somehow. As in some people will have varied opinions on what is good and anywhere in between in the grey area, but most people will agree on what is truly evil.

Maybe we don't have all the answers... I know I don't.

Very interesting.