our healthcare system just broke me

**Hazard** · 07-24-2011, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Twist

I agree with Haz and Godfather but unfortunately that is not how the system works. I agree the system is broken but that's because our politicians are broken. That's a subject for another thread though.

We ALREADY have universal healthcare for everyone. Especially those who can't afford to purchase it. Instead of going to the doctor for a cold poor people or uninsured end up going to the emergency room instead. This costs 10x as much.

Haz you have no health insurance so when you get into an unforeseen accident you should be left on the curb to die because there is no way you will be able to cover the bill? Or you should just be able to go to the hospital and declare bankruptcy when you can pay the bill? OR, should you be paying into something because you might need it later on (social security, car insurance etc)?

I agree it needs to be done right and the chances of that are small but that's just because our elected leaders can't do their jobs.

#1 - we have HSA's - people can put money into them incase of an accident. Do I like it? no..... but it's there.

#2 - we have clinics at hospitals and if one CAN NOT afford healthcare they can sign up at the health clinic and get treated! It's not like we have people in the streets begging for treatment...... there are outlets out there for people to be treated but they either don't look for such outlets or they procrastinate in doing so.

Here's where healthcare reform needs to take place...... at the insurance companies. They deny a treatment or a condition..... so said person goes to the ER and gets treated. They receive a bill and claim bankruptcy because they can't afford it. The hospital has now rendered a treatment but will not be compensated for it. Their costs for services will go up to make up for losses and then the healthcare companies will drive their costs up and put further strain on their customer base.

The sad part is..... that person who went to the ER probably WAS paying for health coverage...... it was just the insurance company that wanted to save a buck by denying treatments.

~Haz~

**Hazard** · 07-24-2011, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Twist

We ALREADY have universal healthcare for everyone. Especially those who can't afford to purchase it. Instead of going to the doctor for a cold poor people or uninsured end up going to the emergency room instead. This costs 10x as much.

EXACTLY...... A typical doctor appointment is roughly $150-$200 - then you have to pay for your prescription. If someone goes to the ER they can expect to pay $700+

People can also call doctor offices and ask what their rate is for those without insurance. I found one that is $75 for the visit! People need to shop around - you wouldn't just walk into a car dealer and pay cash for the 1st car you saw. Worst case scenario..... goto a health clinic...... sign up and get approved. Once you're in..... you will be responsible for NO money EXCEPT for the cost of the doctor. So instead of paying $1000+ for a broken bone..... it could cost you $200 for the doctor fee.

~Haz~

**Flagg** · 07-24-2011, 02:56 PM

I enjoy talking with you too mate! I guess it'a hard for me to understand how you guys cannot have free Universal Healthcare, but I like the analogy of the Private Detective. Sometimes price is quality, and the best money can buy is usually an indicator of being the best.

We also have volunteer Firemen over here as well as Volunteer police force. Infact, its got to the point here, that having done some volunteer police work is almost mandatory to join the big leagues.

At the end of the day I have a tremendous respect for Doctors and Nurses and everyone in that trade. Of all the sciences, I always had more of an interest in biology, and I love what I like to refer to as "the inner universe", the mosaic of cells, organs, signals that exists within all life.

There are a good selection of people on this forum by which intelligent, but respectful debates can be talked about without someone decending into flaming or trying to make their opinion, the only one that matters, and im glad you're one of those good guys Haz (no homo in this entire post at all).

**Hazard** · 07-24-2011, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Flagg

I enjoy talking with you too mate! I guess it'a hard for me to understand how you guys cannot have free Universal Healthcare, but I like the analogy of the Private Detective. Sometimes price is quality, and the best money can buy is usually an indicator of being the best.

We also have volunteer Firemen over here as well as Volunteer police force. Infact, its got to the point here, that having done some volunteer police work is almost mandatory to join the big leagues.

At the end of the day I have a tremendous respect for Doctors and Nurses and everyone in that trade. Of all the sciences, I always had more of an interest in biology, and I love what I like to refer to as "the inner universe", the mosaic of cells, organs, signals that exists within all life.

There are a good selection of people on this forum by which intelligent, but respectful debates can be talked about without someone decending into flaming or trying to make their opinion, the only one that matters, and im glad you're one of those good guys Haz (no homo in this entire post at all).

How are your volunteer police/firemen supplied with their gear/hoses/trucks? Are you guys taxed for those things?

Universal healthcare sounds GREAT right off the bat..... it seems like a no brainer. What really bugs me though is having a very large portion of my paycheck going to pay for this healthcare without my say. It's not that I want to keep my fellow man down..... I wish everyone great health and longevity. However..... America is "The land of the free" - our founding principle. How on earth could someone justify forcing the countries citizens to purchase healthcare? Why should I pay a higher rate for the SAME level of coverage at best? How can anyone justify to me that I should pay more to make sure that the kid down the street selling drugs is covered? It just doesn't seem fair to me.....

I do like having conversations like this with mature people LOL! It makes for interesting and brain stimulating threads...... it also opens up your eyes to different points of view that you wouldn't have otherwise seen.

~Haz~

**Twist** · 07-24-2011, 03:16 PM

Haz I understand what people CAN do. I have health insurance and I can't live without it. I know what to do and how to shop around. But the point is that many don't because they are uneducated and lazy (even illegal so they don't give a shit). It's about what people end up doing. I know many ways the system could work more effectively (from my point of view, obviously I do not know much about this) but that's not the issue. The issue is that people go into emergency rooms for simple shit or they don't have insurance and get screwed over or the insurance company screws people over. Either way the end result is WE end up paying through the nose for it. So what we need to do is force these people to pay for it. If you have health insurance you pay for it anyway so who cares? If you don't have health insurance then you are part of the problem not the solution.

Yes insurance companies are shitty and corrupt and doctors get screwed over too.

The PI case isn't relevant to this situation at all. It's more like, if people used the PI anyway but pushed the costs onto the tax payers should we force everyone to have to pay for the PI services because at some point they end up needing them? Yes, I think so. Nobody in the health care system is giving away their services for free so I can't really see your point.

Right now I am paying for my health insurance and (through taxes) the health services to many people who do not have health insurance. We are already doing it just at a higher price

**Hazard** · 07-24-2011, 03:16 PM

This is a different topic but I'll say it anyways......

I'm European..... familly comes from Belgium. A relative had died over there and was very very wealthy. We were notified that there was an inheritance we would be getting. When looking at how much money she had..... it seemed to be a VERY large number. After the Belgian government taxed it (51 or 55%) and the American government took their share...... there was next to nothing left lol!

Do you guys pay taxes to the government from the paycheck or just taxes that go to healthcare from your paycheck? Not really sure how your system works over there.

~Haz~

**Hazard** · 07-24-2011, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Twist

Haz I understand what people CAN do. I have health insurance and I can't live without it. I know what to do and how to shop around. But the point is that many don't because they are uneducated and lazy (even illegal so they don't give a shit).
If we could only know who didn't give a shit and be able to make them pay or not claim bankruptcy lol.

It's about what people end up doing. I know many ways the system could work more effectively (from my point of view, obviously I do not know much about this) but that's not the issue. The issue is that people go into emergency rooms for simple shit or they don't have insurance and get screwed over or the insurance company screws people over. Either way the end result is WE end up paying through the nose for it.
Agree 110%

So what we need to do is force these people to pay for it. If you have health insurance you pay for it anyway so who cares? If you don't have health insurance then you are part of the problem not the solution.

Yes insurance companies are shitty and corrupt and doctors get screwed over too.

The PI case isn't relevant to this situation at all. It's more like, if people used the PI anyway but pushed the costs onto the tax payers should we force everyone to have to pay for the PI services because at some point they end up needing them? Yes, I think so. Nobody in the health care system is giving away their services for free so I can't really see your point.

See..... If someone hired a PI and then claimed bankruptcy - the PI would lose out on the money. This would only affect everyone else if we ALL needed to use a PI - in which case he would increase his fee - so the ones who CAN pay get screwed.

Right now I am paying for my health insurance and (through taxes) the health services to many people who do not have health insurance. We are already doing it just at a higher price

I don't know for sure..... but given that it's costing 1 Trillion dollars to do this health reform..... I have a feeling it's going to end up costing us waaayyyyy more than we're paying now to have everyone covered.

~Haz~

**Twist** · 07-24-2011, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

I don't know for sure..... but given that it's costing 1 Trillion dollars to do this health reform..... I have a feeling it's going to end up costing us waaayyyyy more than we're paying now to have everyone covered.

~Haz~

The solution to the PI thing (and healthcare) is to make everyone pay in because everyone uses it. I agree with you completely though that it will get screwed up but that is not because its a bad idea that is unconstitutional or not a born right etc. It's because politicians screw everything up. If we are gonna end up screwed I'd rather have healthcare along the way. In fact, FREE food and steroids while we're at it! I'll call it "Anabolicare" TWIST for president!

**DSM4Life** · 07-24-2011, 05:20 PM

Insurance companies make me sick. I have been paying into the system for YEARS. I go to the doctors because i wasn't feeling well (i felt uneasy for a while). The doctor wanted to make sure everything was OK and did simple blood work. I get a bill weeks later because the insurance company denied the blood work saying it was "experimental" on the doctors part and he shouldn't have ordered it. In the end i didn't pay and i chewed the lady out on the phone big time. Right now in my life i will do everything i can to milk my insurance company and cost them every god damn penny i can. When i am sick and my doc writes my up scripts I normally throw out the script because i dont like taking medicine. I just go to the doc to make sure im not going to die. From now on ill get the script filled which only cost me a couple of bucks but i am sure cost the insurance company a lot more. SO F*** YOU you greedy son of a bitch.

/rant off.

**jasc** · 07-24-2011, 05:42 PM

Try for Financial Assistance bro. My GF just went in for a CT scan last week. Her insurance deductible was $900, was a 6-8000$ test her ins company said, and she met with the head of the finance dept at the hospital and because she makes less than 21,450/yr (shes a full time student), the state will cover her costs 100%.
So since your unemployed I'm guessing you could qualify for this.. May be worth looking in to

**Lemonada8** · 07-24-2011, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Twist

The solution to the PI thing (and healthcare) is to make everyone pay in because everyone uses it. I agree with you completely though that it will get screwed up but that is not because its a bad idea that is unconstitutional or not a born right etc. It's because politicians screw everything up. If we are gonna end up screwed I'd rather have healthcare along the way. In fact, FREE food and steroids while we're at it! I'll call it "Anabolicare" TWIST for president!

But how many people sit and do nothing and don't pay in already? Namely welfare recipients and illegeals. Now why do I have to pay for their healthcare if they do nothing?
The biggest issue is welfare, it was for the great depression and it's still around. Get rid of that let those kind of people die off and we may get ahead more than we are now. And for those who want to get out of welfare lifestyle, there are plenty of people that help those who help themselves. But to those who want a free handout and more and more each day, they don't deserve my money or anyone elses money for that matter. 100 years ago those who wanted a free handout died cuz that's not what made our country great, we have gotten away from our work hard and it will all work out mentality to imma sit on my arse and collect a welfare check.

**Twist** · 07-24-2011, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

But how many people sit and do nothing and don't pay in already? Namely welfare recipients and illegeals. Now why do I have to pay for their healthcare if they do nothing? Nobody in this thread is arguing this. But until states decide to let people die on the curb and refuse them help (never) there's no point in discussing this. The point is that since everybody uses the service, EVERYONE should pay into it. I already pay for my healthcare, why shouldn't other people have to pay for theirs?
The biggest issue is welfare, it was for the great depression and it's still around. Get rid of that let those kind of people die off and we may get ahead more than we are now. And for those who want to get out of welfare lifestyle, there are plenty of people that help those who help themselves. But to those who want a free handout and more and more each day, they don't deserve my money or anyone elses money for that matter. 100 years ago those who wanted a free handout died cuz that's not what made our country great, we have gotten away from our work hard and it will all work out mentality to imma sit on my arse and collect a welfare check.

Welfare is a different beast. I think welfare at its core values works but we need to disincentivize people from staying on it. Also workers comp. I could rant for hours about these but I'll stick to the topic at hand.

All self-inflicted health issues should never qualify for any government assistance. That should clear about 90% of our problems up. Gluttonous drinkers/smokers/eaters can all pay for their own medical expenses out of pocket or suffer.

**SlimmerMe** · 07-24-2011, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Twist

Welfare is a different beast. I think welfare at its core values works but we need to disincentivize people from staying on it. Also workers comp. I could rant for hours about these but I'll stick to the topic at hand.

All self-inflicted health issues should never qualify for any government assistance. That should clear about 90% of our problems up. Gluttonous drinkers/smokers/eaters can all pay for their own medical expenses out of pocket or suffer.

Trust me. Once socialized medicine takes over this will be a major part of it. ALL CONDITIONAL based on behavior. So no more vices allowed.

**gixxerboy1** · 07-24-2011, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

How are your volunteer police/firemen supplied with their gear/hoses/trucks? Are you guys taxed for those things?

Universal healthcare sounds GREAT right off the bat..... it seems like a no brainer. What really bugs me though is having a very large portion of my paycheck going to pay for this healthcare without my say. It's not that I want to keep my fellow man down..... I wish everyone great health and longevity. However..... America is "The land of the free" - our founding principle. How on earth could someone justify forcing the countries citizens to purchase healthcare? Why should I pay a higher rate for the SAME level of coverage at best? How can anyone justify to me that I should pay more to make sure that the kid down the street selling drugs is covered? It just doesn't seem fair to me.....

I do like having conversations like this with mature people LOL! It makes for interesting and brain stimulating threads...... it also opens up your eyes to different points of view that you wouldn't have otherwise seen.

~Haz~

I agree with not wanting to pay more in taxes for health care. But in the end i guess it comes down to the numbers. If my taxes go up but i'm not paying an insurance premium every paycheck does it balance out?

**Lemonada8** · 07-24-2011, 08:02 PM

I know i was going with untill we can say "no" to people that need help but dont deserve it, we will never get out of this issue. now defining those who dont deserve it is a different story.

and with those loopholes, never will EVERYONE be paying into the system. Now untill those loopholes are closed/tightened I refuse a socialistic health care system. when we can refuse illegeal immigrants at hosiptals, and get rid of the 14th admentment to those illegeals so they dotn have the incentive to sneek across and have their kids here can this be fixed.

but healthcare is just one strand in a web o crap, and if we pull on one strand the others will still present a problem and wont solve anything. We need a massive reconstruction, and a major change in attitude. So 1/2 is the system, and the other 1/2 is our society. Its a darn big mess thats for sure.

but thats jumping into a whole other issue, which is sorta off topic, but is still related.

**Twist** · 07-24-2011, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

I know i was going with untill we can say "no" to people that need help but dont deserve it, we will never get out of this issue. now defining those who dont deserve it is a different story.

and with those loopholes, never will EVERYONE be paying into the system. Now untill those loopholes are closed/tightened I refuse a socialistic health care system. when we can refuse illegeal immigrants at hosiptals, and get rid of the 14th admentment to those illegeals so they dotn have the incentive to sneek across and have their kids here can this be fixed.

but healthcare is just one strand in a web o crap, and if we pull on one strand the others will still present a problem and wont solve anything. We need a massive reconstruction, and a major change in attitude. So 1/2 is the system, and the other 1/2 is our society. Its a darn big mess thats for sure.

but thats jumping into a whole other issue, which is sorta off topic, but is still related.

And never will this happen until we separate outside interests and politicians' wallets. Once this happens we will be so much better off. No interest groups/corporation backing anyone. Each politician should get their paycheck and some added bonuses for working for the people and that's it. Being a politician would be a lot less desirable for many of these corrupt guys and things would get better, not 100%, but better.

**spywizard** · 07-24-2011, 08:43 PM

yep, it is not a right, nor is it a right to own a house, or eat every day if you don't get off the couch and do something to deserve it..

it wasn't until the 70's that health insurance became more available through employers...

and no we don't spend too much for defense, ask anyone that we've pulled their ass out of a fire..

maybe we should stop sending 1million tons of grain every month to north korea..

I say lets tell NATO to go pound sand..now that's a way to offer free healthcare..

We have more oil reserves here in the USA than all of the middle east so again... lets tell the world to go pound sand, within 5 yrs 1/3 of the world population will be dead and we can begin the conquest..

jk.. but makes ya think..

**spywizard** · 07-24-2011, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by SlimmerMe

Trust me. Once socialized medicine takes over this will be a major part of it. ALL CONDITIONAL based on behavior. So no more vices allowed.

Nope, won't happen.. what will happen is

patient #1 =54 yrs old employed needs treatment for cancer = gets treated and continues to work

patient #2 - 68 yrs old retired needs treatment for cancer -= gets a pill and told to get their affairs in order..

And what will happen is supplemental insurance, you'll all have the gov insurance, but those of us that pay for a policy on top of the gov one will be able to keep seeing doctors that speak english..

**thegodfather** · 07-25-2011, 02:19 AM

There is so much wrong with this thread, I don't know where to begin. It's late, and I don't have to energy to play educator on all of the outright SHIT I've read here.

EMTALA prevents hospitals that participate in Medicare/Medicaid (99% of them) from turning away anyone at the Emergency Room. Hospitals under EMTALA are REQUIRED to make a patient stable, REGARDLESS of their ability to pay for the services through personal pay or health insurance.

I'll deal with the rest later on today after I get some sleep.

**brad1986** · 07-25-2011, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

Another issue we have is the older generations with medicare who have weekly "social" doctor visits...... There was a show on it with John Stossel (funny mustache guy) - Those old bitties said they were entitled to it. They enjoyed seeing their friends at the office once a week. When asked about the younger generation and how this is going to affect them..... the old woman replied "thats their problem..... I paid for this..... I'm entitled"

~Haz~

I saw that program! The sad thing is US YOUNGER PEOPLE pay into it too and the rate its going we wont have anything left to show for what we pad into it.

**brad1986** · 07-25-2011, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Flagg

Is he trying to say Health Care is not a right? :P

You have to remember, someone going through Medical School over in the UK will have to attend 4-7 years at University, and seeing as university fees are increasing from 10K to nearly 30K a year, Doctors graduating over here will still have a lot of debt to pay back.

And call me naive, but I thought the whole point of being a Doctor was to help people. If it's done for status, money...then I think those are pretty poor reasons to be one. Rights be damned, if someone is bleeding out, are they supposed to be ignored because no one knows if they have cover?

You talk that Healthcare is a service, not a right...that's like saying, every time you call 911 and ask for other the police or the fire department, they could say "well, we'll come out to you, but have you got the green?" , im not sure how your police and fire departments work over there, but arent they also a service? Can you imagine if a police operator said to you on the phone "Ma'am, im sure your husband is chasing you round the house with a knife, but we're a service, not a right. Good day".

It's not my place to say how the American government should spend it's money, but don't you think you spend way, WAY too much money on Military defence, when that could be put towards improving Health Care instead?

In the world we live in now, and the precarious financial situation of the U.S., surely people are not going to be in a position any more to pay for Privatised HealthCare any more?

You do have very good points.... I like this debate.... The u.s. definitly overspends on our military and law enforcment and we could redirect our spending but thats why i think flagg and haz arnt too far off from actually agreeing with eachother. Just different ways of achieving the goal

**brad1986** · 07-25-2011, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

This is a different topic but I'll say it anyways......

I'm European..... familly comes from Belgium. A relative had died over there and was very very wealthy. We were notified that there was an inheritance we would be getting. When looking at how much money she had..... it seemed to be a VERY large number. After the Belgian government taxed it (51 or 55%) and the American government took their share...... there was next to nothing left lol!
Do you guys pay taxes to the government from the paycheck or just taxes that go to healthcare from your paycheck? Not really sure how your system works over there.

~Haz~

isnt that extortion and robbery?lol. Funny how everything WE earn somhow the government seems entitiled to it

**spywizard** · 07-25-2011, 01:42 PM

yep, that's why so many emergency rooms closed in southern cali in the late 80s = woman sitting in the parking lot til her water breaks, then gets into the er..1 more american citizen is born..

**Terinox** · 07-26-2011, 09:54 AM

I never understood what a huge difference there can be between 2 countries health care like Canada and the U.S.
My friends dad went down to NY and LUCKILY bought insurance, even though it was just a short trip over the weekend for a wedding (I think), and unfortunetly he had a heart attack while there, the bill I heard was something like over $20K he would have had to pay if it wasn't for his coverage... U.S. system sucks for healthcare...

**gixxerboy1** · 07-29-2011, 11:36 AM

Well just got some bills.
The hospital itself was $11,800
Some dr i spoke to for all of 3 mins and never touched me. She came in after i saw the specialist and he said he was releasing me. She billed me for $500

**Twist** · 07-30-2011, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

Well just got some bills.
The hospital itself was $11,800
Some dr i spoke to for all of 3 mins and never touched me. She came in after i saw the specialist and he said he was releasing me. She billed me for $500

This is bullshit man. I'm very sorry this happened to you. We need every citizen to be covered with healthcare. This should never happen to our CITIZENS. Take out some credit cards, max them out and file bankruptcy (Not sure if that's actually a good idea) if they can't fix this for you.

**SlimmerMe** · 07-30-2011, 08:57 AM

Sounds horrible but the only real solution is to: Talk to the hospital and negotiate as much as you can first. They do not want for you to walk out on them. Then afterward a better deal, arrange low monthly payments. They do this all the time.

**Flagg** · 07-30-2011, 11:37 AM

Not sure if filing for Bankruptcy is a good idea.

I'm pretty sure, over hear in the UK, you are not allowed to have a bank account for 5 years after you are declared bankrupt. So unless you are self employed, kiss a job goodbye for the next 5 years.

So as I understand it Gixxer, you cannot claim health insurance due to being diabetic, is that right?

**gixxerboy1** · 07-30-2011, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Flagg

Not sure if filing for Bankruptcy is a good idea.

I'm pretty sure, over hear in the UK, you are not allowed to have a bank account for 5 years after you are declared bankrupt. So unless you are self employed, kiss a job goodbye for the next 5 years.

So as I understand it Gixxer, you cannot claim health insurance due to being diabetic, is that right?

I'm a diabetic and have myastenia gravis. I do have health insurance. But insurance wont cover anything related to those 2 for a year cause its a pre existing condition.

Thats not how bankruptcy works here

**amnkeefe** · 07-30-2011, 10:57 PM

No one is my family has health insurance. My wife, son and I all just pay cash for vaccines, check ups, etc. I cannot get insurance because of a brain injury from when I was in the military. We actually filed bankruptcy in 2008 because due to over 75k in medical bills from the undiagnosed TBI. I feel you Gixxer. Just keep your chin up.

I really can't compare our system to others being as I haven't experienced it. However, I do know that insurance companies are outright criminal in their business practices.