US looses AAA credit rating

[gixxerboy1]

I agree we do need tax reform and some Bush's tax cuts should have ended. Obama cant do anything about it now because the Rep have control of the house. He should have taken care of that earlier. But it probably would have gotten filibustered

[Twist]

How much would you have to collect in taxes to keep up with Obama's spending? You could double the taxes on the wealthy and it still wouldn't even come close. He had plenty of time with democrats in full control of the house and senate and all they did was spend, spend, spend. Now all they do is blame, blame, blame.

These are Obama's policies and he is the one signing the checks. He is at the helm of a sinking ship.

You're joking right? Obama's spending?!? You mean like on the wars Obama started? Or how about all the tax cuts Obama gave? Or maybe your referring to the spending Obama had to do as a result of the recession he caused? Cuz we all know it's the damn EPA holding businesses back so we better cut all their funding. Go ahead and complain about jobs but say cut spending and lay government employees off. I'm all for cutting costs but this was an unnecessary conflict fabricated for political bullshit agendas. Obama will benefit tremendously from a recovered economy however what the hell would republicans run on if that happened? Result is what you see. I know I seem like I'm 100% Obama but I'm not. I actually hate all the bleeding heart liberals. But that's just not the issue right now.

[Sgt. Hartman]

The US or other countries wouldn't adopt a global currency. The reserves would be held in a global currency much like US dollars are held as reserve currency now. That doesn't mean countries don't get to use their own currency. THis would suck for the US but it makes sense and would happen anyway just now its sooner rather than later.

How can someone say this is Obama's fault? I don't understand this. We just cut spending by eliminating the jobs of the middle class by laying off people from the biggest corporation in the world (the US). We won't raise taxes on the rich even though they are not suffering at all and they got tons of tax breaks. We won't close the loopholes for huge corporations even thought they are making record profits and not hiring anyone or bringing any of that money to the US. None of this is president Obama. Our country is getting raped by congress and blaming it on the black guy and most are too dumb to see it! I can't even believe this.

The top 25% of income earners in the US (over $67,000 annually, the rich??) pay 86.34% of the total income tax. The bottom 50% of income earners (under $33,000) pay 2.7%, so that puts the top 50% at 97.3%.

The average tax rate of the top 1% of income earners is 23.27% while the average overall tax rate is 12.24% and the bottom 50% of earners is 2.59%.

How would you change those numbers to make things more "fair"?

[Nooomoto]

You're joking right? Obama's spending?!? You mean like on the wars Obama started? Or how about all the tax cuts Obama gave? Or maybe your referring to the spending Obama had to do as a result of the recession he caused? Cuz we all know it's the damn EPA holding businesses back so we better cut all their funding. Go ahead and complain about jobs but say cut spending and lay government employees off. I'm all for cutting costs but this was an unnecessary conflict fabricated for political bullshit agendas. Obama will benefit tremendously from a recovered economy however what the hell would republicans run on if that happened? Result is what you see. I know I seem like I'm 100% Obama but I'm not. I actually hate all the bleeding heart liberals. But that's just not the issue right now.

I mean like the 2 wars he's continued, the 1 front he opened in Libya, his $848b in stimulus package programs, the billions in aid to Pakistan who ****s us at every turn, the money to Mexico and Brazil so they can develop their oil resources etc etc.

At what point does a president accept responsibility for what's happening in his country, how many years must go by before something...anything is his fault?

[Twist]

The top 25% of income earners in the US (over $67,000 annually, the rich??) pay 86.34% of the total income tax. The bottom 50% of income earners (under $33,000) pay 2.7%, so that puts the top 50% at 97.3%.

The average tax rate of the top 1% of income earners is 23.27% while the average overall tax rate is 12.24% and the bottom 50% of earners is 2.59%.

How would you change those numbers to make things more "fair"?

Low income earners making money but not on welfare benefit very little from the government and its services. Who uses the roads, airports etc? People that can afford cars/plane tickets. The tax system makes sense if there weren't loopholes everywhere and deductions up the ass for corporations. How about paying 15% on capital gains taxes which contributes jack shit to the economy. I know you don't really think the tax system is fair. Not even the rich think the tax system is fair; not gonna vote against it though.

I mean like the 2 wars he's continued, the 1 front he opened in Libya, his $848b in stimulus package programs, the billions in aid to Pakistan who ****s us at every turn, the money to Mexico and Brazil so they can develop their oil resources etc etc.

At what point does a president accept responsibility for what's happening in his country, how many years must go by before something...anything is his fault?

We are getting off topic but he's cleaning up a complete mess made by someone else. If he just pulled out there would be a massacre and he would be in so much more shit for that. His stimulus is a result of someone else's bad decisions and not shit compared to what Bush spent anyway. Not even close.
We have to send that aid although Obama cut it anyway. We get returns on investment in Mexico and Brazil. This isn't even a portion of the issue anyway.

He definitely ****ed up, that's for sure. How? By compromising with the trolls.

[Nooomoto]

Again...when will it be time to stop blaming Bush and start accepting responsibility as the president? As much as people try to explain away the numbers they are still there. The bad numbers are way up and the good numbers are way down.

[Twist]

Again...when will it be time to stop blaming Bush and start accepting responsibility as the president? As much as people try to explain away the numbers they are still there. The bad numbers are way up and the good numbers are way down.

I blame the president for compromising and continuing other bad habits started under other administrations. I don't blame the president for starting or even continuing a recession he had nothing to do with. I'm not blaming Bush for keeping us down, although he had a lot to do with it. Companies have no reason to start hiring so stop throwing cash at them. Tax breaks or any probusiness bullshit is to further an agenda. Businesses are not hurting (record profits) so the problem isn't there. They cut costs and now have no reason to start hiring.
The bad numbers haven't gone down since the last president and the good numbers haven't gone up. How can you balance a budget while taking half the equation off of the table. I am all for cutting costs in our government. We all know how wasteful the spending is. The point is that some are trying to cut regulationary practices not useless programs. The tea party wants to get rid of the IRS I mean jesus! How is this hard to see what is going on? Regulation is what keeps corporations from ****ing each and every one of us up the ass.
The good numbers are down and the bad numbers are up but simply Obama is not to blame for that. The numbers are there and I posted a graph from WSJ that shows the issue, its not Obama.

[Hazard]

I don't care who's to blame..... all I care about is getting shit fixed. Now..... when one man bases his whole campaign on "change" and nothings changes...... he failed IMO. Maybe not at everything..... but he failed his campaign promise. Unless you consider changing the situation for the worse (his fault or NOT)

~Haz~

[Twist]

I don't care who's to blame..... all I care about is getting shit fixed. Now..... when one man bases his whole campaign on "change" and nothings changes...... he failed IMO. Maybe not at everything..... but he failed his campaign promise. Unless you consider changing the situation for the worse (his fault or NOT)

~Haz~

This I totally agree with. My issue is that he is blocked from doing any of the changes he wants to make by republicans and democrats who would rather throw the economy into crisis rather than give an inch. It's unbelievable and frustrating.

[Times Roman]

Flat tax anyone?

Everyone pays an even 25% of all income, regardless of it's character? Regardless of ability to pay?

People with less income pay less total dollars, people with more income pay more total dollars? Does that seem fair?

[Sgt. Hartman]

25% is a ridiculous amount of money, it's actually making my blood boil as I sit here and type this that I should be expected to give away (ie. have stolen from me) 25% of my hard earned income so our government can redistribute wealth however they choose.

Flat tax? Sure. Fair tax? Yes. Anything that would eliminate or at least shrink the IRS is a great idea IMO. But none of the various forms of taxation will be any better until we get our spending down to a reasonable level. Until we fix our ridiculously out of control spending, I don't think that there is any equitable way to divvy up the tax burden among US taxpayers.

[SlimmerMe]

I like Fair tax over Flat tax. Flat tax will never fly. Fair Tax? maybe and would be a great solution.

[Twist]

Flat tax anyone?

Everyone pays an even 25% of all income, regardless of it's character? Regardless of ability to pay?

People with less income pay less total dollars, people with more income pay more total dollars? Does that seem fair?

Not fair. We need a progressive tax system with no loopholes. Education and a very few other things should be tax deductible because it benefits everyone in society.

I wouldn't mind paying a higher tax, 30-50% even, if the government included services like healthcare, auto insurance, homeowners insurance etc. That would be fine because then I wouldn't have to worry about all that stuff along with insurance companies trying to screw me or my family. But the government is waaaaayyyyy to stupid to do that effectively and efficiently and they would probably end up just like the insurance companies.

If the government would watch over these insurance companies and force them to stop screwing over people then I would rather do private insurance. Saying things like lapse of coverage as soon as someone gets sick is corrupt and wrong on so many levels. These people are so aweful they should be lined up and...

Anyway progressive tax system with no loopholes or exceptions.

[RaginCajun]

The top 25% of income earners in the US (over $67,000 annually, the rich??) pay 86.34% of the total income tax. The bottom 50% of income earners (under $33,000) pay 2.7%, so that puts the top 50% at 97.3%.

The average tax rate of the top 1% of income earners is 23.27% while the average overall tax rate is 12.24% and the bottom 50% of earners is 2.59%.

How would you change those numbers to make things more "fair"?

and that statistic includes all the crooked ass senators that pass the laws so they can have all the advantages!

[Twist]

67,000 is middle class anyway not rich. How much do people making over 500,000 pay in taxes? How about all the loopholes to get through. One of my family members makes over that and he even says its wrong.

[Hoggage_54]

I heard General Electric profited $11 billion and paid $0 taxes last year.

[Sgt. Hartman]

67,000 is middle class anyway not rich. How much do people making over 500,000 pay in taxes? How about all the loopholes to get through. One of my family members makes over that and he even says its wrong.

I don't know about $500k but those who made over $380k (top 1%) paid 23.27% in taxes.

You also have to remember that these "loopholes" you're talking about are typically incentives that put money back into other investments thereby stimulating the economy and benefitting many. It's not like these incentives allow a tax break for keeping your cash under your mattress or in a checking or savings account.

[Shol'va]

I heard General Electric profited $11 billion and paid $0 taxes last year.

Get A Rope......

[Twist]

I heard General Electric profited $11 billion and paid $0 taxes last year.

I doubt they paid zero but GE has an amazing lobbying presence in Washington. Their loopholes are crazy. Props to them.

I don't know about $500k but those who made over $380k (top 1%) paid 23.27% in taxes.

You also have to remember that these "loopholes" you're talking about are typically incentives that put money back into other investments thereby stimulating the economy and benefitting many. It's not like these incentives allow a tax break for keeping your cash under your mattress or in a checking or savings account.

Poor people stimulate the economy when they are given extra money because they spend everything they have, rich just save or reinvest. Plus the rightoffs are not for the good of society and usually only benefit the few. there are exceptions but the point is that it needs to be redone.

Hedge fund managers making millions at a tax rate of 15%. Who does that benefit? It's just that rich, upper middle class, and congress themselves all can benefit from these so who is gonna suggest to shut it down? Most poor are too misinformed to even ask any of these questions nevermind vote correctly (enter Tea Party).

[Twist]

The last thing I want is high taxes as I barely make anything as it is. I just hate seeing this country being stripped and left for dead.

[Hoggage_54]

I doubt they paid zero but GE has an amazing lobbying presence in Washington. Their loopholes are crazy. Props to them.

Here's the article... you paid more in taxes than this company.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/bu...5tax.html?_r=1

[Lemonada8]

We should get rid of welfare. Its bleeding our country dry. And when welfare is a better life than people who have 2 jobs and ride a bike to work, who in their right mind would want to work?

And while we are at it, why not cut all the incentives for higher educated professionals to pay back their loans early and save some money? when it costs 60k a year easy for the education? so when they get out, in debt 1/4 a million and then tie their hands behind their back when it comes to getting paid? The higher educated work their ass off, but you wanna know a secret, just about anybody can do it, it all depends on what you want to do. Take the stress and responsibility and debt for a secure future? and now gonna cut out that secure financial future cuz they are 'super rich'?

and I disagree with some of the ideals that obama 'goes by' but he is doing what he thinks is best, the problem is the politics. george washington tried to prevent political parties cuz he predicted it would tear the country apart. Well now 200+ years later, it finaly happened. neither side will work together and actually comprimise and then the pres goes on tv and blames congress? Its all a blame game now to stay afloat long enough to get re-elected. Makes me sick. There was a suggestion for no more career politicians, that they should have other jobs and live in the real world first then go into politics. That is a great idea imo, seems that they get out of touch with reality. And then the corporate sponsers that pay WAYYYY to much money to the politicians they favor isnt that basically bribing? Wow thats pretty hypocritial IMO.

What about a 2 teir system for some of the major services? but dont put any restrictions on the free market but make sure the gov 'equivalent' is actually equal to the private sector. Competition makes the world go around, and the free market would be controled by their profits. If they are too expensive they lose money, too cheap they lose money.

oh and the poor spend all their money to reinvest in the economy but the rich save and reinvest? Hmm i wonder why the poor stay poor and the rich get richer then...

as for the 'wars', usually when nations go to war there is a profit incentive... but if we take over we look like the bad guys so we pay them insane amounts of 'aid' with nothing in return. thats like going for a marathon every day for a month but cant eat or drink. Not gonna last long.

[Twist]

I don't quite understand your position Lemonada. Sorry idk why lol.

We should get rid of welfare. Its bleeding our country dry. And when welfare is a better life than people who have 2 jobs and ride a bike to work, who in their right mind would want to work?
Welfare needs to be completely redone. In a perfect society we wouldn't need it but in this one a certain amount is needed. You're right on in the last sentence. Make welfare such a pain in the ass to be on that nobody does it unless they NEED it. Also take away all incentives to stay on it and especially have kids.

And while we are at it, why not cut all the incentives for higher educated professionals to pay back their loans early and save some moneywhat does this mean? Cut incentives to pay back loans?? when it costs 60k a year easy for the education? so when they get out, in debt 1/4 a million and then tie their hands behind their back when it comes to getting paid? The higher educated work their ass off, but you wanna know a secret, just about anybody can do it, it all depends on what you want to do. Take the stress and responsibility and debt for a secure future? and now gonna cut out that secure financial future cuz they are 'super rich'?
I don't get this paragraph.

and I disagree with some of the ideals that obama 'goes by' but he is doing what he thinks is best, the problem is the politics. george washington tried to prevent political parties cuz he predicted it would tear the country apart. Well now 200+ years later, it finaly happened. neither side will work together and actually comprimise and then the pres goes on tv and blames congressand congress blames the pres.? Its all a blame game now to stay afloat long enough to get re-elected. Makes me sick. There was a suggestion for no more career politicians, that they should have other jobs and live in the real world first then go into politics. That is a great idea imo, seems that they get out of touch with reality. And then the corporate sponsers that pay WAYYYY to much money to the politicians they favor isnt that basically bribing? Wow thats pretty hypocritial IMO.
The problem with politicians is that they are basically lobbying for corporations. If they were for the people it would be different. Cut out ALL corporate or special interest group cash from their bank accounts and things will change. They should have to compete against each other to see who can do the most for society.

What about a 2 teir system for some of the major services? but dont put any restrictions on the free market but make sure the gov 'equivalent' is actually equal to the private sector. Competition makes the world go around, and the free market would be controled by their profits. If they are too expensive they lose money, too cheap they lose money.
I don't get this one either. Are you advocating no regulation and instead a free market will determine prices...?

oh and the poor spend all their money to reinvest in the economy but the rich save and reinvest? Hmm i wonder why the poor stay poor and the rich get richer then...
exactly. The poor spend all their money on food/diapers/cars/rent etc and the rich take extra money and buy more stock or another offshore house etc. The poor stimulate the economy because the cash goes right back into the market, the rich just save it.

as for the 'wars', usually when nations go to war there is a profit incentive... but if we take over we look like the bad guys so we pay them insane amounts of 'aid' with nothing in return. thats like going for a marathon every day for a month but cant eat or drink. Not gonna last long.
Defense gets rich along with many other government contractors. Oil companies and mining companies get contracts but the majority gets screwed.

See bold. I think we agree with each other but I'm not sure lol. This is a great debate so far. Lot's of interesting and different points of views and no name calling. Good stuff.

And WOW on GE. I have heard about their tax and lobbying abilities but didn't know they are on that level. That's amazing. We are dumb lol.

[Sgt. Hartman]

I had remembered hearing this on the news a while back but here it is copied from the link above:

President Obama has said he is considering an overhaul of the corporate tax system, with an eye to lowering the top rate, ending some tax subsidies and loopholes and generating the same amount of revenue. He has designated G.E.’s chief executive, Jeffrey R. Immelt, as his liaison to the business community and as the chairman of the President’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, and it is expected to discuss corporate taxes.

Hmmm. Makes you wonder.

[Lemonada8]

exactly. The poor spend all their money on food/diapers/cars/rent etc and the rich take extra money and buy more stock or another offshore house etc. The poor stimulate the economy because the cash goes right back into the market, the rich just save it.

that doesnt make sense. The 'rich' still buy food, diapers, cars, etc. If they buy stock, they are reinvesting in the market which is a big part of the economy. And not as many 'rich' folk have off-shore houses as its made out to be. The top 1% is over 500,000$. I know alot of people in that % and they arent even close to being able to afford a off-shore house. And since tax is based on networth, not income alone thats how they can get screwed with saying they have more $$ than yall think. I support a flat tax, with some tax exemptions but the thing is that we spend tax money for people who dont pay taxes.

And the poor spend alot of money on unnecessary things. its a society thing now, gotta have the newest bestest stuff and who cares just put it on a credit card to pay later. The problem is that it sticks around and doesnt get paid. Now thats not all 'poor' but its a big part of why poor stay poor. And with the education benefits out there, its possible to get a steady job with a proper education.
Now with education, College is being pushed way to much to HS grads. all it is now is a 4 year party and then they have basically NO work skills and get a job that is completely different than their degree. I would like to see something like a 'job corp' where HS grads go to learn specific skills (mostly blue collar workers) where its an apprenticeship program. Have housing and meal plans available for the students. Then put them to work, i think ITT schools are amazing because they teach the students what they need to do for their job with no extra unnecessary education. Take out a loan, but in the process of learning the trait they can work towards paying it off so when they graduate from the school they have plenty of work experience and maybe a little bit of $$ to help start out living on their own. but pushing college for people who graduate and then go work at a factory (which is great money btw), its a waste of money going to college. For those who want the 'college life', the only difference between the 'college life' and real life partying is that in college you are most likely on borrowed money, or someone elses money. Real life you are on your own money which IMO makes one realize the power of money.

People have lost respect of money. Ill take myself for example, im in school and currently $120k in debt and i have 3 more years of $60k each year, then when i graduate i have to do more training for my profession while making maybe $60k a year for 4-7 years, but having loan repayments of $2k a month due each month. (and thats the bare minimum payback amount available) i do this cuz i love the profession i am going into, and its a financial secure option, but I wont be able to get out of debt for a minimum of 10 years (thats paying back max possible i can and not spend extra anywhere else) oh and thats 10 years AFTER the additional training i will need. Then its all about how hard i want to work, I will *most likely* be my own boss, so how much i want to work is how much i can make provided there is a need for it. But i get my loans, its just a number on my computer screen. I dont ever get the full effect of how much money i really owe now and when im done. But i will know it once its paid off well after being done with school. Thats what i was kinda gettin at with raising the debt ceiling is that I wont have my 1/2% interest discount for paying electronically, another 5% early payback. It will soon become (if trends continue) that higher education will only be feasible for the 'rich', which isnt fair.

Welfare is a joke, and it needs to be scrapped. Take that money and invest it into unemployment help and other social programs that help someone when they are down. there are many programs out there that can help just people dont like to look for it, or they are on welfare and keep poppin out kids for more money and dont work. And the arguement that welfare kids work harder, is a joke (read that somewhere about this issue). Kids tend to follow the parents cuz thats what they see. Then they either go with it or go oppsite of it... but not many go complete oppsite, so welfare reciepents stay on welfare.

The 2 teir comment was for insurance mainly, but i bet it can be applied in other aspects but i just dont know them yet. Having a gov option that is the same quality as the private sector and at a reasonable price will keep the private sector's prices down. Then dont restrict what the private sector can/cant do, just regulate quality and that they are actually doing what they claim to do.

for the profits of the 'wars', sure some companys do benefit with war but when we are basically running iraq and still have the extremely high gas prices (all based on speculaiton... UGH!) how is the war benefiting our society? its not. We are nation building afganistan but will we get anything out of it? most likely not. And all our foreign aid? thats argueable, but since when have debts that are owed to us been paid back? not much if any, its all 'forgiven' which is another hole in the bottom of the boat.

basically, as a nation we have to learn to say 'no' when we cant help, and demand respect when we give aid and expect something in return.

and UHC is NOT the answer, it will make healthcare WORSE in the US. Look at other nations, and why do so many flood here for medical care?
same with illegals, they dont deserve rights in the US. Maybe just personal rights, like you cant go shoot them when u want etc, but for the benefits of being a citizen of the USA is given out to illegals is a waste and really decreases the value of being a citizen. And get rid of the 14th amendment, there is no more need for it.

All in all, we need a drastic reconstruction and need to question the additional principles that have been added to attend to certain situations and if they are still needed.

and sry i was gonna reply to individual quotes, i started good then i got on my soap box :P so dont take it as thats a big issue.. i just got rollin and didnt want to stop

[Shol'va]

Makes you want to send our elected officials to a Thailand Sauna.

[Twist]

We agree on a lot. I was all for flat tax until some really smart and honest 'rich' guys explained to me why that isn't fair and wouldn't work. I would still vote for it over our current tax system.

The poor stimulating the economy is really basic economics and that's how it is. Rich people are already buying the stuff they need (diapers, food etc) but poor people just buy more of it when they get more money. Sure they might blow it on stupid stuff, but that's exactly who you would wanna give money to if you want to stimulate the economy.

Agree that school prices have been growing out of control for a long time now. No arguing with that. My school raised their tuition and fees by about 17% but CA only raised it by 10% so that's a 7% profit margin. That's only this semester. You becoming a doctor btw?

2 tier is a good idea IMO. Whether our government is smart enough to pull it off is another question. UHC in principle is a good idea IMO. However I doubt they will be able to pull it off.

There needs to be a solution to immigration that's for sure. I would go into debt for that. Not sure if we would go about it the same way but I agree there needs to be a solution.

We definitely need a drastic reconstruction.