Real Strength vs Fake Strength pet peeve

[awms]

I notice that most guys who lift heavy and use proper form still cheat and inflate their lift numbers...what I mean by this is that most guys in the gym use no tempo at all and use momentum to lift the weight....this might be ok if all you care about is moving the weight from point A to point B (Strong man) but its not "Real" strength just because you can lift the weight. The body doesnt know Point A to Point B it knows muscle recruitment...really makes me mad when I see a guy throw 315lbs on the bar and free fall into his squat with no pause at the bottom and then pop up using mostly momentum! just because you went ass to grass does not mean your actually lifting the weight! I use 3-4 seconds down/pause 1 second a bottom/fire up.

Im more impressed when I see a guy squat 225 ass to grass with a 4 second tempo and a pause at the bottom then someone throws on 400lbs on the bar, drop into the bottom like they are free falling and fire back up.

[Nooomoto]

So its your opinion that strong men have fake strength? Have you ever watched wsm?

[spywizard]

and yet we know that once you pass 90 degree angle it over stresses the ligaments in the knees.. but keep on training, i'll stay safe and leg press 1200 for reps..

also unless you are a judge in a tournement does your opinion really all that important to people??

sorry, it's been that kind of day for me..

[awms]

No I have no doubt that they are strong you dont lift that kind of weight without being strong but even a power lifter will tell you the man who wins is not necessarily the strongest guy....its often the guy who has the best game plan, and technique to move the weight.

When it comes to sports or bodybuilding (which is 99% of us) using momentum to lift the weight serves no purpose at all. Like I said the body only understands muscle recruitment and you can only truly be your strongest if you use tempo over momentum....will you get stronger without tempo? of course but ultimate strength is achieved with tempo.

My example is the squat because at the top of the squat the quads do 90% of the works and bellow the 90 degree mark the gluts and hamstrings do 90% of the work so if you dont give your body a chance to recruit your hamstrings and gluts you are going to have weak points...most people dont know how to fire their gluts at all! I have guys come to me all the time (Im a trainer) who have been training for year! who tell me "my squat has been the same for 3 years and I cant break the plateau" I almost always correct their form, work on teaching them how to fire their gluts and use tempo and 99% of the time their squat sky rockets!

[terraj]

I don't know about how the eccentric movement relates to strength as many Oly lifters don't use any or little negative resistance, but when it come to gaining size the eccentric is where the money is...as may also be seen with the Oly lifter whom in relation to the weights they move don't have the size you would think.

Less time peeving at other and more time under the eccentric movement

[awms]

and yet we know that once you pass 90 degree angle it over stresses the ligaments in the knees.. but keep on training, i'll stay safe and leg press 1200 for reps..

also unless you are a judge in a tournement does your opinion really all that important to people??

sorry, it's been that kind of day for me..

I trained a guy who told me he would never be be able to do squats again because he has major knee surgery....hes now able to squat 275lbs ass to grass with no problem! the knee things is over blown and for the most part an "old school" mind set....If done properly the squat is safe...problem is most people are not safe lol

[awms]

I don't know about how the eccentric movement relates to strength as many Oly lifters don't use any or little negative resistance, but when it come to gaining size the eccentric is where the money is...as may also be seen with the Oly lifter whom in relation to the weights they move don't have the size you would think.

Less time peeving at other and more time under the eccentric movement

Im sure Il get some heat for this but technically olympic is not 100% true strength....these guys are beasts yes! but their goal is only to move the weight from point A to point B so technique and momentum are a major part of it!

If you look at how an athlete trains (lets say a football player) will train much like a power lifter in that the goal is strength a power but it has to translate on the field so tempo is used in order to recruit more muscle fibers and in return make them stronger.

[randymeans]

If you train slow then you'll be slow! I didn't get where I am today counting seconds up and seconds down. Can you do a 3 1/2 ft box jump or run a 400m under 1min? If you trained intense then you could. It sounds to me like your a "bodybuilder" kinda guy so why do you care about numbers anyway? If you were a powerlifter then you wouldn't be complaining.

[awms]

p.s most power lifts now do use tempo in the off season in phases to build strength so when they do lift in competition they have no weak point in their lifts....pausing at the bottom of a lift is very common in power lifting

[awms]

If you train slow then you'll be slow! I didn't get where I am today counting seconds up and seconds down. Can you do a 3 1/2 ft box jump or run a 400m under 1min? If you trained intense then you could. It sounds to me like your a "bodybuilder" kinda guy so why do you care about numbers anyway? If you were a powerlifter then you wouldn't be complaining.

Your not lifting slow your recruiting muscles....this is a misconception! if you cant recruit certain muscles then they will never become more powerful. the concentric movement is were power comes into play, the eccentric movement is all about recruiting muscle fibers so that they can fire on the concentric movement.

[randymeans]

Agreed,its unsafe when you squat with your knees instead of your hips! People don't know how to squat 9/10! I've been training intense for 3 years plus football and track in high school and have had zero injuries. Being flexable and doing correct movements pays off.

[awms]

If you understand physiology or perhaps the nervous system you will know that you train the nervous system different then the musculoskeletal system...this is why sprinters do both weight training and plyo's

[Nooomoto]

Is your first post referring to strong men or powerlifters? They are two different things and you mention asking a power lifter about winning strong man comps? I think there's an issue of symantics here.

[terraj]

Olympic lifters consistently do well in Strongman events

[Hazard]

I trained a guy who told me he would never be be able to do squats again because he has major knee surgery....hes now able to squat 275lbs ass to grass with no problem! the knee things is over blown and for the most part an "old school" mind set....If done properly the squat is safe...problem is most people are not safe lol

I had an entire post written out that got deleted and i'm not going to retype it all but IMO this guy shouldn't be going ass to grass and be proud of it.

Depending on the surgery he had..... he could feel great now but there could be slow occuring damage being done from what he's doing. I'm an orthopedic specialist by profession and help put in total knees, hips, acl and pcl reconstructions..... etc. If he had a ligament repair then it all depends on the system that was used to repair it, the fixation, and what graft was used to repair him. A lot of people today get allografts (tssue from cadavers) and i've seen 65 year old allografts get implanted. Idunno about you..... but if a 65yr old tendon was used to repair my knee..... I wouldn't wanna be going ass to grass on squats. Thats just asking for a rupture. Unfortunately theres no way of knowing what the age of the graft was unless you go back to the doc/hosp and request it..... and hopefully they keep all their records in order. If he had a meniscal tear and it was removed and not repaired..... doing squats is ASKING for a premature knee repla***ent..... PERIOD.

A MAJOR pet peeve of mine is when someone tells another person to suck it up and hit their legs hard even when they had knee surgery. Don't take that the wrong way lol i'm not implying you did..... i'm just on the topic now LOL! It's just fvcking aggrivating because I see this shit on a daily basis..... and for someone to tell another person to man up and destroy their knee is completely assinine. If someone wants to doit to themself.... then fine but don't pressure anyone else into rough elderly years all for some "glory" of a heavy squat and big "wheels"

~Haz~

[Hazard]

In regards to the strength and movements..... I just go heavy as I can while maintaining good form. I don't count 4 seconds on the way down, pause, then lift. It's too much of a pain in the ass for me and what i'm doing now is working. I could give a shit less about real strength or "fake" strength..... all I care about is what I look like

~Haz~

[awms]

I had an entire post written out that got deleted and i'm not going to retype it all but IMO this guy shouldn't be going ass to grass and be proud of it.

Depending on the surgery he had..... he could feel great now but there could be slow occuring damage being done from what he's doing. I'm an orthopedic specialist by profession and help put in total knees, hips, acl and pcl reconstructions..... etc. If he had a ligament repair then it all depends on the system that was used to repair it, the fixation, and what graft was used to repair him. A lot of people today get allografts (tssue from cadavers) and i've seen 65 year old allografts get implanted. Idunno about you..... but if a 65yr old tendon was used to repair my knee..... I wouldn't wanna be going ass to grass on squats. Thats just asking for a rupture. Unfortunately theres no way of knowing what the age of the graft was unless you go back to the doc/hosp and request it..... and hopefully they keep all their records in order. If he had a meniscal tear and it was removed and not repaired..... doing squats is ASKING for a premature knee repla***ent..... PERIOD.

A MAJOR pet peeve of mine is when someone tells another person to suck it up and hit their legs hard even when they had knee surgery. Don't take that the wrong way lol i'm not implying you did..... i'm just on the topic now LOL! It's just fvcking aggrivating because I see this shit on a daily basis..... and for someone to tell another person to man up and destroy their knee is completely assinine. If someone wants to doit to themself.... then fine but don't pressure anyone else into rough elderly years all for some "glory" of a heavy squat and big "wheels"

~Haz~

I agree for the most part...not everyone can do squats but 99.99% of the guys who say "I cant do squats I have bad knees" are bull shitting or really dont understand or know what they are talking about....there are very very few people who are not able to do squats ass to grass because with proper form.

If a client tells me "I have bad knees" I always ask "Really? How do you know has your doctor told you this?" and 9 times out of 10 all the client can say is "No its because they hurt"...and my responses is always "no you dont have bad knees you have imbalances that are causing your knees pain and we are going to fix them". As a trainer its my job to assess a client the client and fix their imbalances before they hurt them self...most of the time when it comes to squats the problem is either the client does not know how to activate their gluts at the bottom of the movement or they have very very tight facial tissue and muscles which need to be loosen and stretch.

The odd time that I cant do squats with a client and I mean the ODD TIME! because the client would need to have some serious knee issues! I mean like a 65 year old with reconstructive knee surgery lol then I will have them do split squats with weight.

[awms]

p.s I never throw anyone into squats or any other olympic lift without first fixing their imbalances....if someone had ACL surgery then my priority is to get their knee back in shape first and then we work on more complex movements!

[songdog]

I really dont worry about wat the other guy is doing.You can take 10 different guys and they all will have certain ways to train.All I can say is do wat works for you.

[Knockout_Power]

I use to laugh at these guys with shitty technique, flailing around to get the weight lifted and so many times i wanted to tell them how stupid they look swinging their elbows and using their shoulders to do curls... finally, I just realised, it does nothing to better my routine, so I stopped paying attention... sometimes, like last night, I just giggle in my head watching these guys try and one up their friends by swinging the weights even more wildly than the last.

[youngbody]

The people with shitty technique at the gym > the people at home sitting on their couch

[Knockout_Power]

I never got hurt sitting around the house... just fat

[youngbody]

thats true but i mean there trying, with a little help they might not look so dumb.
and then they could make gains and benefit

[awms]

thats true but i mean there trying, with a little help they might not look so dumb.
and then they could make gains and benefit

Yeah but it always seems to be the guys who think their power lifters". Theres a guy at my gym who is about 25% bf and tells me hes a power lifter...the other day he put 405lbs on the bar and asked me is I could spot him and keep contact....His back came all the way off the bench and I mean waaaaayyyyy of the bench! and me keeping contact meant me dead lifting 100lbs of his chest, after thinking he only wanted to do 1 rep he has the balls to say "2 more" so on his second rep I racked it for him and told him I was lifting a quarter of the weight and his back and shoulders were off the bench.

Another group of "power lifters" in my gym come, hog the squat rack, throw 300lbs on the bar and free fall to the bottom of the squat while simultaneously using momentum to get back up to the top, yelling and bowing their knees like no tomorow lol these same guys use the same weight every time and do the same shit every time! I once said do you ever give your body a break and take a week off or lift light for a couple weeks and the guy told me "never!" lol

[Knockout_Power]

^^^ Ive got nothing against powerlifters, but the guys you are describing do make me laugh. The effort will never be made to not look like a slob, but all efforts will be made so they can bounce 315 off their chest for 3 reps

I do enjoy watching it done right though. Theres one guy at the gym with a WSM type build and seeing him squat 6 plates slowly and controlled is very impressive.

[goodlifting]

I notice that most guys who lift heavy and use proper form still cheat and inflate their lift numbers...what I mean by this is that most guys in the gym use no tempo at all and use momentum to lift the weight....this might be ok if all you care about is moving the weight from point A to point B (Strong man) but its not "Real" strength just because you can lift the weight. The body doesnt know Point A to Point B it knows muscle recruitment...really makes me mad when I see a guy throw 315lbs on the bar and free fall into his squat with no pause at the bottom and then pop up using mostly momentum! just because you went ass to grass does not mean your actually lifting the weight! I use 3-4 seconds down/pause 1 second a bottom/fire up.
Im more impressed when I see a guy squat 225 ass to grass with a 4 second tempo and a pause at the bottom then someone throws on 400lbs on the bar, drop into the bottom like they are free falling and fire back up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sTHNRUUJr8

i have a feeling that mr. farris here can squat 225 with a 4 second tempo all day. i don't understand why you think explosive squats with big weight are easy.

[Knockout_Power]

Thats looks so bad for the lower back just as he starts his upwards motion, but yah, looks like 2 plates would be candy to him. Just walk around all day with it on his shoulders

[mirin_serratus]

the correct way to train for strength is to maximize power during the eccentric, commonly known as 'exploding out of the hole'
your body could care less about momentum and tempo, all it knows is work, and power
since the work done in moving a weight from point A to point B is the same regardless of tempo, the logical thing to do is to increase the speed of the lift, which improves power output
keep doing your fancy tempo with middle school weights lets see how strong you get

[terraj]

Fitness instructors who themselves are not so muscular sometimes advise serious strength athletes to train using lighter weights. Their story is that heavy weights are not so effective. Training with lighter weights, over which you have more control on the eccentric movement, will give you more progression, they say. Not so, says a study recently published in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research.

"Using a 2/0/2 or 2/0/4 lifting tempo at the same relative intensity in a single exercise protocol leads to few differences in hormonal, metabolic, and perceptual responses", the researchers conclude.


If you can train with heavy weights, it’s advisable to do so. There’s no point consciously doing the movements more slowly with lighter weights. Slower reps with longer eccentric movements are worthwhile, however, if you are unable to train with heavy weights, for example due to injury or if there are no heavy weights available.

http://www.ergo-log.com/sloweccentricmovement.html

[awms]

the correct way to train for strength is to maximize power during the eccentric, commonly known as 'exploding out of the hole'
your body could care less about momentum and tempo, all it knows is work, and power
since the work done in moving a weight from point A to point B is the same regardless of tempo, the logical thing to do is to increase the speed of the lift, which improves power output
keep doing your fancy tempo with middle school weights lets see how strong you get

I can squat 315 with a 4 second tempo and a 1 second pause at the bottom....I could only imagine what I could do without tempo. I can dead 595lbs with tempo, the weight that I lift is no pre school weight! at 190lbs I can out lift 99% of the guys in my gym.

[Hazard]

99% of my gym can outlift me..... but I look better than 99% of my gym

Really tho..... I don't even lift all that heavy IMO..... I just don't find it necessary. It's done well for me so far..... i'm not exactly trying to look like jay cutler so i'm not too worried about it. Every now and again i'll amp the weights up to shock the muscle but for the most part I stick with 10-12 reps for 3 sets of a moderate weight. As long as I have a strong pump I feel it's enough.

~Haz~