Judge says abusive techer can have job back.

**Tigershark** · 08-18-2012, 10:23 PM

This story bothered me because I still do perdium work autistic kids.
The Supreme Court may have ruled we can not execute the mentally retarde, but apparentl we can still put them on the court bench.

http://gma.yahoo.com/judge-florida-t...opstories.html

**SexySweetheart** · 08-19-2012, 01:37 AM

I can see how a teacher may have been trying to help BUT i dont think any crayons are toxic anymore so who cares if he eats them, and really lady use some ommon sence ~ no school would approve doing this to students , also i dought she soaked the crayons with hot sause so hot that it would harm the kid (i got tabascoo sauce under my tongue all the time as kid for punishment cuz I swore alot ~ my mouth is fine

lol) so i dont see what the parents issue is other than feeling violated that their kid was disaplined in a way they would not choose/ seeking a fat pay day
(btw I woud totaly do that too lol)

so i agree with the court..teacher should have her job back after being retested on shcool disapline and chain of command, she's human and its hard working with autistic kids (as we both know some kids are brats, autistic or not) she effec up and prob learned from it

**Misery13** · 08-19-2012, 05:58 AM

I disagree with that. It's not a teacher's place to discipline them to that extent. I too hot sauce my 4 sons from time to time. But there my children and my responsibility. Not the teachers and I have some less than nice children at times.

**Renesis** · 08-19-2012, 10:49 PM

Lol Misery you talk as if you are the norm. You realize that you being a responsible adult who takes care of his children intelligently RARELY exists in todays world?

**austinite** · 08-19-2012, 10:57 PM

They should do the same with her.

**gonejeepin** · 08-20-2012, 04:47 AM

Well I'm not autistic, but back in grade school, grade 6 I believe, my teacher wacked me across the arm a few times with a drumstick which left huge welts, my mother came in the next day and went batshit crazy, teacher was never seen again and apparantly was no longer able to teach in that school board.

As for tobasco, I never got that, but when I talked foul I would get a bar of soap in my mouth, not pleasant but highly effective nonetheless.

**gonejeepin** · 08-20-2012, 04:51 AM

Discipline is no longer something for teachers to do to children, obviously detention and what not is still good to go.

**songdog** · 08-20-2012, 10:42 AM

They should have discipline in school.These kids are out of control they hit push kick cus at teachers.And the parents swear their kid dont do such things.I know this for a fact beacuse my wifes back is messed up from one of those lil pricks.And its really amazing to have the parents watch their kids on video doing these things they swear their kids dont do.I just know if I was a teacher and a kid hit me.I would gladly go to jail beacuse that kid wouldnt do it again.And the last thing I would worry about is his ignorant parents who think their kid can do as he wishes.

**Times Roman** · 08-20-2012, 11:15 AM

I was reading the article, and was thinking to myself... really?
kids in school often times have a distasteful liquid applied to their fingernails to remind them not to bite their nails.
so I must ask the question that begs to be asked....
.....how hot could it really be? will it be so hot so as to cause serious discomfort? on the one hand, society is all over the backs of teachers due to a perceived failure to teach. Yet on the other hand, we hog tie them and do not allow them to do anything very creative. I mean really. What are we afraid of?

This tactic is probably a good one to help prevent the child from eating the crayons.

Here's the thing. Playing devil's advocate here. Suppose the teacher didn't care whether or not the child was eating the crayons. And suppose something in the crayon made the child sick. And THEN say the parents found out the teacher KNEW the child was eating the crayons. Do you suppose the parents would have went quietly into the night? or do you think they would have been up in arms side by side with their attorneys?

Up until recently, crayons have contained lead...
http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/crayonslead.html

and asbestos...
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/052300-02.htm

granted, today they should be fairly benign. But there were scares about this issue in the past, and there are still many convinced that eating crayons is harmful. I don't think the article said they were Crayola brand crayons, and that being the case, what is the likelihood they came from China? Remember now, China really doesn't give a shit abouut alot of things, and not too long ago, they were putting poison in milk, killing babies, just to increase profit. So it's not too much a stretch to think something similar couuld happen again?

Anyways, my point is, I think we make too much out of nothing. It's almost embarrassing to me to see the things that we as a society whine and bitch abouut. We have it so good in this country, and now we are bitching about a teacher, who in good faith, was trying to get her student to stop eating crayons.

Give me a fukken bbreak!

**gonejeepin** · 08-20-2012, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by songdog

They should have discipline in school.These kids are out of control they hit push kick cus at teachers.And the parents swear their kid dont do such things.I know this for a fact beacuse my wifes back is messed up from one of those lil pricks.And its really amazing to have the parents watch their kids on video doing these things they swear their kids dont do.I just know if I was a teacher and a kid hit me.I would gladly go to jail beacuse that kid wouldnt do it again.And the last thing I would worry about is his ignorant parents who think their kid can do as he wishes.

I agree I wasn't saying I don't feel teachers should be able to discipline students its just how it is, I couldn't imagine being a teacher with the way kids are now, just seems like they have no respect for anyone or anything

**austinite** · 08-20-2012, 12:08 PM

It's all OK until it happens to someone you know, then you change your mind. If that were my autistic niece that was treated this way, I'd find that teacher and cut my dogs loose.

**Times Roman** · 08-20-2012, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

It's all OK until it happens to someone you know, then you change your mind. If that were my autistic niece that was treated this way, I'd find that teacher and cut my dogs loose.

I don't understand how you think the child was harmed?

if you read my above rant, you'd understand my position?

**austinite** · 08-20-2012, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I don't understand how you think the child was harmed?

if you read my above rant, you'd understand my position?

I understand. I am referring to unnecessary discipline to an Autistic kid that probably won't learn from this and will do things involuntarily.

My dad beat the shit out of me as a kid. I never complain about that and it has NOT affected my life like everyone on earth would normally say. But I wasn't suffering from any illness and I wouldn't want to have me as a kid either. Nothing but a trouble maker.

This is equivalent to punishing a 90 year old man with Alzheimer's disease for pissing his sheets. It's simply unjust.

I am ALL for discipline when appropriate. You don't have to physically harm a sick child to be considered out of line.

**JD250** · 08-20-2012, 12:23 PM

K-rist almighty.....the kid is autistic!!!!!!! This woman is a gawdamned disgrace to teachers and the human race. There's a big damn difference between how you deal with special needs kids and a child who simply needs discipline and if this stupid bitch doesn;t know the difference then what the fvck is she doing working with autistic kids in the first place. The only reason she is being reinstated is because of her nationality......I guarantee you that much, the NEA is a powerful force and they wouldn't dare cross the race line. This isn't a racial slam......it's a shot at the NEA and their lawyers. God help anyone who puts their faith in our public schools.

**Times Roman** · 08-20-2012, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

I understand. I am referring to unnecessary discipline to an Autistic kid that probably won't learn from this and will do things involuntarily.

My dad beat the shit out of me as a kid. I never complain about that and it has NOT affected my life like everyone on earth would normally say. But I wasn't suffering from any illness and I wouldn't want to have me as a kid either. Nothing but a trouble maker.

This is equivalent to punishing a 90 year old man with Alzheimer's disease for pissing his sheets. It's simply unjust.

I am ALL for discipline when appropriate. You don't have to physically harm a sick child to be considered out of line.

wait a second! this is not a punitive act by the teacher. typically, discipline is after the fact corrective action. she is trying to train the child not to eat a crayon. you cannot reason with this child. you cannot spank the child after the fact for eating this crayon because by then the child will not understand. the only thing that would work, imho, is a preventative measure. if the child "tastes" the crayon, and it tastes horrible, then hopefully the child will not eat the crayon. the only way to reach a child such as this, in many cases, is at the exact moment the decision to eat the crayon is being made.

I'm going to say something most of you will probably not appreciate, and maybe not even understand. But the training methods that work for these kinds of kids are very similar to training a dog. I'm talking training a dog the right way, not the painful way some jerks do it. If a dog craps in the house because it can't make it through the night, you feed the dog earlier so it has time to crap outside. If a dog is destroying property because it wants to chew, you can do a variety of things to persuade your dog not to chew. Distraction only works for some. Others will coat the surface of the thing the dog is trrying to chew with something that tastes bad. There is also substitution; give it something else to chew instead, like a rawhide. One or more of these techniques quite often will cure the dog from chewing the thing you do not want it to chew. What you do not do is try reasoning with it, or explaining why chewing your favorite shoe is bad. Or spanking your dog, because by then, just like the child eating crayons, it is too late, and the dog will not understand.

So now we back up a bit. Decision time.

Either we eliminate crayons from the childs environment. But it seems clear to me the child likes to use the crayons, and with autistic children, once they can relate to something, typically you do NOT take it away!

Or we can 100% stand over the child and everytime a crayon is put into a mouth, we remove the crayon. But this will turn into a tug of war, and quite often, result in the child screaming and other poor behaivor. Realistically, we cannot 100% stand over the child, because we cannot allow our day to revolve around crayons, right?

We already know that with autistic children, quite often, reasoning and explaining why we don't want them to eat crayons doesn't work.

Do we really want to resort to corporal punishment?

Or we can make the crayon taste bad, and hopefully, discourage the child from eating the crayon.

Let's be very realistic here. This is a very difficult environment here. For now, let's just focus on ways to cure this situation.

What is the best course of action.

What many people seem to not realize is that this is not punishment, but behaivor modification

So what would you do?

**Times Roman** · 08-20-2012, 01:43 PM

no one said the child was harmed, or could be harmed if the hot sauce were to be injested. If there had been a risk to the child, the article would have clearly mentioned it. The article was silent, and therefore, this act posed no risk to the child.

**Times Roman** · 08-20-2012, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by JD250

K-rist almighty.....the kid is autistic!!!!!!! This woman is a gawdamned disgrace to teachers and the human race. There's a big damn difference between how you deal with special needs kids and a child who simply needs discipline and if this stupid bitch doesn;t know the difference then what the fvck is she doing working with autistic kids in the first place. The only reason she is being reinstated is because of her nationality......I guarantee you that much, the NEA is a powerful force and they wouldn't dare cross the race line. This isn't a racial slam......it's a shot at the NEA and their lawyers. God help anyone who puts their faith in our public schools.

nice rant.

but not one constructive word how YOU would handle the situation with the autistic child eating crayons. see my #15 and answer the question at the bottom.

**austinite** · 08-20-2012, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

wait a second! this is not a punitive act by the teacher. typically, discipline is after the fact corrective action. she is trying to train the child not to eat a crayon. you cannot reason with this child. you cannot spank the child after the fact for eating this crayon because by then the child will not understand. the only thing that would work, imho, is a preventative measure. if the child "tastes" the crayon, and it tastes horrible, then hopefully the child will not eat the crayon. the only way to reach a child such as this, in many cases, is at the exact moment the decision to eat the crayon is being made.

I'm going to say something most of you will probably not appreciate, and maybe not even understand. But the training methods that work for these kinds of kids are very similar to training a dog. I'm talking training a dog the right way, not the painful way some jerks do it. If a dog craps in the house because it can't make it through the night, you feed the dog earlier so it has time to crap outside. If a dog is destroying property because it wants to chew, you can do a variety of things to persuade your dog not to chew. Distraction only works for some. Others will coat the surface of the thing the dog is trrying to chew with something that tastes bad. There is also substitution; give it something else to chew instead, like a rawhide. One or more of these techniques quite often will cure the dog from chewing the thing you do not want it to chew. What you do not do is try reasoning with it, or explaining why chewing your favorite shoe is bad. Or spanking your dog, because by then, just like the child eating crayons, it is too late, and the dog will not understand.

So now we back up a bit. Decision time.

Either we eliminate crayons from the childs environment. But it seems clear to me the child likes to use the crayons, and with autistic children, once they can relate to something, typically you do NOT take it away!

Or we can 100% stand over the child and everytime a crayon is put into a mouth, we remove the crayon. But this will turn into a tug of war, and quite often, result in the child screaming and other poor behaivor. Realistically, we cannot 100% stand over the child, because we cannot allow our day to revolve around crayons, right?

We already know that with autistic children, quite often, reasoning and explaining why we don't want them to eat crayons doesn't work.

Do we really want to resort to corporal punishment?

Or we can make the crayon taste bad, and hopefully, discourage the child from eating the crayon.

Let's be very realistic here. This is a very difficult environment here. For now, let's just focus on ways to cure this situation.

What is the best course of action.

What many people seem to not realize is that this is not punishment, but behaivor modification

So what would you do?

OK. But Hot sauce? Who are any of us to determine how much hot sauce could sting? Some people will puke their lungs out for a dab of hot sauce, and others can drink it out of the bottle. Hot sauce doesn't just "taste bad" to kids. It's associated with pain by the kids.

She didn't just dab the tip in hot sauce, she soaked them for days in hot sauce. That alone shows poor intentions and I would most certainly have to disagree with the Behavior Modification theory.

Furthermore; the parents of the child do not approve of this. Regardless of how anyone feels, the parents should have been made aware of the crayon eating issue and the recommended solution should have been mentioned to them. Surely they would have objected.

Lastly, I understand the frustrations of a special needs teacher. How difficult that job could be, I can only imagine. But this is why I never chose that profession. She did, however, and should have more patients that anyone else and more importantly, the courtesy and common sense to contact the parents and let them know that she plans on soaking crayons in hot sauce for several days, and then serve them to their child in an attempt to prevent eating them in the future.

What would I do? I would speak with the parents to see bounce options off of them to resolve the issue. Every child on earth eats crayons, Autistic or otherwise. So as a teacher, it makes me wonder if she has done the same thing with every child that put a crayon in their mouth.

I'm not hearing the other side of the story so it's hard to judge. But just from the info available, I can safely say that this teacher does not like this child. (I'm gonna get these crayons nice and soaked in hot sauce for a few days and then feed them to you). Sounds psychotic, frankly.

**austinite** · 08-20-2012, 02:01 PM

On a side note, I totally respect your opinion, TR. I just happen to disagree, which is quite rare

**JD250** · 08-20-2012, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

nice rant.

but not one constructive word how YOU would handle the situation with the autistic child eating crayons. see my #15 and answer the question at the bottom.

I see your #15 and raise you a good dose of common sense.......if crayons are a problem for an autistic child.......find something else besides crayons to stimulate the child.....simple, and that's not my opinion, that comes from someone with 30 years experience working with autistic children. And yes, sometimes a case of autism can be severe enough to require an one on one teacher all day every day......... it's just how it is. 50 years ago we would just lock up anyone who wasn't normal in an institution and let them eat crayons , luckily things have changed.

**Times Roman** · 08-20-2012, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

OK. But Hot sauce? Who are any of us to determine how much hot sauce could sting? Some people will puke their lungs out for a dab of hot sauce, and others can drink it out of the bottle. Hot sauce doesn't just "taste bad" to kids. It's associated with pain by the kids.

She didn't just dab the tip in hot sauce, she soaked them for days in hot sauce. That alone shows poor intentions and I would most certainly have to disagree with the Behavior Modification theory.

Furthermore; the parents of the child do not approve of this. Regardless of how anyone feels, the parents should have been made aware of the crayon eating issue and the recommended solution should have been mentioned to them. Surely they would have objected.

Lastly, I understand the frustrations of a special needs teacher. How difficult that job could be, I can only imagine. But this is why I never chose that profession. She did, however, and should have more patients that anyone else and more importantly, the courtesy and common sense to contact the parents and let them know that she plans on soaking crayons in hot sauce for several days, and then serve them to their child in an attempt to prevent eating them in the future.

What would I do? I would speak with the parents to see bounce options off of them to resolve the issue. Every child on earth eats crayons, Autistic or otherwise. So as a teacher, it makes me wonder if she has done the same thing with every child that put a crayon in their mouth.

I'm not hearing the other side of the story so it's hard to judge. But just from the info available, I can safely say that this teacher does not like this child. (I'm gonna get these crayons nice and soaked in hot sauce for a few days and then feed them to you). Sounds psychotic, frankly.

not sure why she felt the need to soak for a few days. Quite frankly, wax has an extremely difficult time absorbing liquid, and I'd say beyond a few minutes, it becomes pointless. the extra days, imo, does nothing. Many crayons have a paper wrapped around them, and maybe this was the only thing able to absorb the hot sauce.

Here is the thing, in my opinion. Dried hot sauce won't really be hot, well, maybe, if jabanero or one of the extremes. but the article didn't say it was an extreme hot sauce, it was silent on the issue. If the teacher really wanted to fuk up the kid, she would have used capsicum extract.

Originally Posted by austinite

On a side note, I totally respect your opinion, TR. I just happen to disagree, which is quite rare

Thank you. Discussions, like this, that are rational and respectful, can be enlightening for both sides.

Originally Posted by JD250

I see your #15 and raise you a good dose of common sense.......if crayons are a problem for an autistic child.......find something else besides crayons to stimulate the child.....simple, and that's not my opinion, that comes from someone with 30 years experience working with autistic children. And yes, sometimes a case of autism can be severe enough to require an one on one teacher all day every day......... it's just how it is. 50 years ago we would just lock up anyone who wasn't normal in an institution and let them eat crayons , luckily things have changed.

so your solution is either take away the crayons or hover over the child? eliminating the crayon venue might not be a good decision, especially if the child is successfully expressing herself with it.

i think austinite had a good idea, one i considered, yet omitted because i just wanted a technical solution...
....get the parents involved. making the crayons taste bad is still a good solution, but include the parents in the decision process.