Poverty

[gixxerboy1]

With the elections there has been more talk about poverty. how it has increased over the years. And talk of who is going to fix it and how others failed to.
How does government fix poverty. Yes they can give aid to people in poverty. But they cant eliminate it.
IMO
IMO its more a corporate issue. If business aren't giving raises that keep up with inflation or a real living wage there will always be poverty. There are alot of corporations that are making huge profits, their ceo's are taking huge bonuses but they pay the lower level workers little.
Isnt it the mindset of the CEO's or the business directly to realize the lower workers are important to their business and they need to pay them accordingly?

thought this would be a good discussion

[AXx]

Very good discussion. What is poverty level now?? Anyone know? Single family? married family with kids??

Case and point we have an airport at the FD, last night starting at 7:30 there was a plane that cranked up both engines (jet) and finally at 9:45 they took off from the airport. Sound silly, well this is a local business man (extremely wealthy) and his company is a very low paying company where like you said only the top people are rewarded for their accomplishments.

Sound about right?? I don't get it, maybe I'm missing the point. I know it's his money but and he has the right to spend it as he pleases but come man, that ridiculous.

[stocky121]

like always the rich get richer and the poor get poorer

[gixxerboy1]

like always the rich get richer and the poor get poorer

i agree. No government policy is going to change that. They cant make business' give raises or pay their employees better.

[stocky121]

its a hard one. your normal person wants to buy goods at the cheapest possible price we are all guilty. so company's need to sell there product at chepest price are people will just buy the products that come from third world countrys where the pay and price for raw metrial is so cheap. the biggest cost is transporting the goods.
Both are countrys are in reccesion at the minute and i carnt see it changing anytime soon.

[gixxerboy1]

its a hard one. your normal person wants to buy goods at the cheapest possible price we are all guilty. so company's need to sell there product at chepest price are people will just buy the products that come from third world countrys where the pay and price for raw metrial is so cheap. the biggest cost is transporting the goods.
Both are countrys are in reccesion at the minute and i carnt see it changing anytime soon.

i do agree with that. But if a company can sell the goods cheap, and still make a lot of profits and give executives bonuses in the millions, then why cant they afford to give lower level employees a small raise. Its more the mentality of the executives at a company. Nothing politics can change

[pasha]

Yea agree, but the government can stop bailing out a company that kept the same profits during a economic crises and the ceo still receiving millions of dollars and bonus... while we as tax payers are using our money to bail then.. the government should not bail anyone out.. this is business, you go down that is it... another company will take its place.

[spywizard]

I would suggest it's more of the issue being a "large" comany is publicly held, that is stock is held, value for that stock is more important that "living wages" or sharing the money with the people that do the work..

why is that??

who takes the risk?? does the worker take any risk, i mean any?? do they put up their homes value as a item of value for a loan???

but that is exactly what most people have to do to start/run/develope a business..

case in point... I bill out at $85-$120 per hour... i can do the work or i can sub contract it to someone that can do the work for $25 per hour...

why would I pay her more to do the work??? she takes no risk in obtaining the work, the correctness of the work that is done, nore does she have the ambition to do so..

so why pay her more??

[stocky121]

i do agree with that. But if a company can sell the goods cheap, and still make a lot of profits and give executives bonuses in the millions, then why cant they afford to give lower level employees a small raise. Its more the mentality of the executives at a company. Nothing politics can change

yeah i get where your coming from morally thay should i totaly agree. A happy worker is a productive one. But thay think that the low level employes are ten a penny very easy to replace. So why would thay give a 10 cent pay increase to every employey when thay can buy themselves a summer house.
what i hate is the massive taxes that the big companys avoid.

[JohnnyVegas]

I can think of one thing the government is in charge of that can help elevate people out of poverty: education.

I am not saying the government is good at educating, but it is one service they provide that has the power to break the cycle of poverty.

Other than that, all I think they can do is create an environment where business can thrive. I am split on whether the government should protect the poor with minimum wage laws. I know it places a burden on business, but I also know business can be predatory towards their workers. Obviously some industries are worse than others.

[Honkey_Kong]

I can think of one thing the government is in charge of that can help elevate people out of poverty: education.

I am not saying the government is good at educating, but it is one service they provide that has the power to break the cycle of poverty.

Other than that, all I think they can do is create an environment where business can thrive. I am split on whether the government should protect the poor with minimum wage laws. I know it places a burden on business, but I also know business can be predatory towards their workers. Obviously some industries are worse than others.

Minimum wage laws really just hurt the middle class more. When minimum wage increases, middle class earnings don't also increase.

What the government SHOULD do to reduce unemployment and poverty is invest in industries that create wealth in America. IE opening up plants, giving tax incentives to companies for opening up shop stateside, raising tariffs so that it's not in our interest to buy junk made in China.

Unfortunately, what they end up doing is those public works projects like in Vegas where they dug up the streets and rebuilt them. I can specifically recall they dug up streets that were in good working order (IE Rainbow between Smoke Ranch and Cheyenne) and didn't bother with the streets that needed repair the most. Eventually, the money ran out. Those guys they hired were out of work again and we were still stuck with a bunch of roads that had pot holes in them.

[Hoggage_54]

Corporations are too short sighted. They have become obsessed with the bottom line so that shareholders will give the chosen few a big bonus, and they can cash out quick and screw over the workers. Shipping jobs to China hurts in the long run. People will say its great that it creates lower priced goods, but it comes at a cost... the middle class, the worker. These same people forget that workers are the consumers. You can't have competition when the competition has slaves and you are a proud American that wants to employ your fellow countryman so that they can put food on the tables for their kids. Americans used to look out for each other, now it's a free-for-all on who can make the quickest buck, regardless of innovation, pride, and ethics. China is literally buying the USA with the money that proud American workers used to make.


"Corporation, n: An ingenious device for obtaining profit without individual responsibility."

-Ambrose Bierce

[Times Roman]

too many times I see people that invest NOTHING in their education, NOTHING in their training. Yet they want the good life? Of course they do, but they do nothing to make themselves stand out above and beyond all the others.

I was a plant controller for a manufacturing company. the guys on the line, most of them graduated highschool. we all know how tough THAT is, right? So they run a welder all day, and make their $14/hour. with benefits. but they don't study or go to college to someday get thier boss' job. they will take it if it is given to them, of course. yet when the union comes around, it seems NOW they feel they are not getting paid enough?

Now, with globalization, these basically unskilled workers now have to compete with the chinese. the chinese pay their unskilled workers crap, and can sell the products they make dirt cheap. this is what we have to compete with. so now their is downward pressure on the welder making $14/hour.

Let me be real clear so i'll try not to mumble....

....If you want to get ahead in life, instead of holding your hand out waiting for the company to give you something.

....Instead, don't be an UNSKILLED WORKER!!!

Get an education, then get a skill. Then you will be in demand and can command a higher salary.

But that means, you will have to study instead of drinking beers with your buddies watching the game. This is a sacrafice many are unwilling to make. And if so, then they deserve what they get.

[Lunk1]

i do agree with that. But if a company can sell the goods cheap, and still make a lot of profits and give executives bonuses in the millions, then why cant they afford to give lower level employees a small raise. Its more the mentality of the executives at a company. Nothing politics can change

The question isn't why CAN"T they, it's why would they! If I owned a company, was the one who made the sacrafices, took the risks and face all the responsabilty then why would should I pay the employee anymore than the min. required to keep them or someone like them working.

[jasc]

The question isn't why CAN"T they, it's why would they! If I owned a company, was the one who made the sacrafices, took the risks and face all the responsabilty then why would should I pay the employee anymore than the min. required to keep them or someone like them working.

Valid point, but it's this type of attitude that is often self defeating. So because you risked some things in the past you are infinitely deserving and somewhat better than those who work for you? Workers are the driving force and often the face of a company. Pay them the bare minimum and most often their work will reflect it. A good company takes care of their employees and will grow together. A company who treats employees like servants will have high turnover and unsatisfied clients.

*btw, this was not directed at you. You is used in a figurative sense referring to owners.

[Lunk1]

Valid point, but it's this type of attitude that is often self defeating. So because you risked some things in the past you are infinitely deserving and somewhat better than those who work for you? Workers are the driving force and often the face of a company. Pay them the bare minimum and most often their work will reflect it. A good company takes care of their employees and will grow together. A company who treats employees like servants will have high turnover and unsatisfied clients.

*btw, this was not directed at you. You is used in a figurative sense referring to owners.

It's kool i am just a worker so it was hypothetical but my point still holds weight. As an employer would I OWE an employee anything more than his or her pay. If you take the job knowing what the pay and benifits are then why should I give you more than what we agreed on whe you took the job. I agree with wage increases that should at least be equal to cost of living increases but I would have started my business with the intent to max profit not share my $ with everyone just as a matter of principle. I promised you $15 an hour and that is the pay you accepted when you took the job so why do I OWE you anymore? If you want more better yourself, work hard, don't bitch and try to move up or move on. Lots of ppl looking for jobs.

[gixxerboy1]

It's kool i am just a worker so it was hypothetical but my point still holds weight. As an employer would I OWE an employee anything more than his or her pay. If you take the job knowing what the pay and benifits are then why should I give you more than what we agreed on whe you took the job. I agree with wage increases that should at least be equal to cost of living increases but I would have started my business with the intent to max profit not share my $ with everyone just as a matter of principle. I promised you $15 an hour and that is the pay you accepted when you took the job so why do I OWE you anymore? If you want more better yourself, work hard, don't bitch and try to move up or move on. Lots of ppl looking for jobs.

I do agree to a point. But your workers are what are making you successful too. But you are correct that they agreed to that pay for the job. I have no issue with that. But i see a that alot of pay isnt increasing with the cost of living. Some employers are paying the same thing they were 10 years ago. Now if the company is struggling its one thing. But if its making record profits the ceo isnt the only one that deserves to make more. Not that the low level employees deserve to make what he makes or a huge bonus. But some dont get a .25 cent raise over years.

But i was more getting at that i see the politicians on the stump saying how they are going to end poverty. So what can they do? employers are the only one that can effect the working poor.

[Lunk1]

I do agree to a point. But your workers are what are making you successful too. But you are correct that they agreed to that pay for the job. I have no issue with that. But i see a that alot of pay isnt increasing with the cost of living. Some employers are paying the same thing they were 10 years ago. Now if the company is struggling its one thing. But if its making record profits the ceo isnt the only one that deserves to make more. Not that the low level employees deserve to make what he makes or a huge bonus. But some dont get a .25 cent raise over years.

But i was more getting at that i see the politicians on the stump saying how they are going to end poverty. So what can they do? employers are the only one that can effect the working poor.

My state attempted to pass manditory union laws that would make it manditory for every employee to be in the union if one existed. They may have even been trying to make unions manditory...I can't remember for sure. Other than something like this I don't see how gov. can cause any reform in employee pay by a private industry.

[Times Roman]

My state attempted to pass manditory union laws that would make it manditory for every employee to be in the union if one existed. They may have even been trying to make unions manditory...I can't remember for sure. Other than something like this I don't see how gov. can cause any reform in employee pay by a private industry.

As a CFO/Controller for a variety of manufacturing companies, there is in fact much the government can do to spur employment.

1) Expand employment development zones, giving tax credits where applicable. This will spur regional employment where it is needed most.
2) Penalize companies for outsourcing labor. this can be done a variety of ways. One way is a 5% surcharge on Sales Revenue (not taxible income) if it is determined, through a variety of algorithms, that a significant portion of the product sold has labor value added off shores. 5% is huge, and will stop alot of the off shore bleeding.
3) Revamb the H1B visa system. there are whole industries, (eg, electronics) that rely heavily on the H1B when there is really no need. It is seriously being abused, and it needs to stop.

these three only took me a few seconds to come up with. there are more. But these three would have a serious impact on unemployment, if they were implemented.

[gixxerboy1]

^^^
I agree that would help with unemployment. But how does that help if they are low wage jobs. Imo the middle class is shrinking.

[Lunk1]

As a CFO/Controller for a variety of manufacturing companies, there is in fact much the government can do to spur employment.

1) Expand employment development zones, giving tax credits where applicable. This will spur regional employment where it is needed most.
2) Penalize companies for outsourcing labor. this can be done a variety of ways. One way is a 5% surcharge on Sales Revenue (not taxible income) if it is determined, through a variety of algorithms, that a significant portion of the product sold has labor value added off shores. 5% is huge, and will stop alot of the off shore bleeding.
3) Revamb the H1B visa system. there are whole industries, (eg, electronics) that rely heavily on the H1B when there is really no need. It is seriously being abused, and it needs to stop.

these three only took me a few seconds to come up with. there are more. But these three would have a serious impact on unemployment, if they were implemented.

TR for Pres. in 2016

[auslifta]

When I see how much money the US budgets for military spending vs spending on education and domestic infrastructure, it's little wonder the poverty line is where it is.

[Times Roman]

^^^
I agree that would help with unemployment. But how does that help if they are low wage jobs. Imo the middle class is shrinking.

the backbone of the middle class a generation ago WAS manufacturing jobs. But this is UNSKILLED labor! As third world countries are increasingly industrializing and putting their unskilled and very cheap labor to work, they are much more competitive per manufacturing dollar spent compared to our unionized labor pool. This puts downward pressure on our current labor rate so that our products can compete with other products produced from these poor countries.

The three ideas i had will bring back jobs, but they will be lower paying jobs.

the problem with bringing these jobs back AND expecting them to be at the same payscale as when they left is that it will bring huge pressure for these manufacturing companies to AUTOMATE. The jobs will eventually be lost, anyways....

There is no easy solution. There is too much global competition to think that a company can make a low to mid range tech product and also pay their workers a lucrative salary.

One solution is high tech where the competition is not as great. But high tech requires an entraprenurial spirit, where there is a clear incentive (reward) for risk taking. Many companies in manufacturing, in order to remain competitive in the short term, have mothballed their R&D departments (very expensive), which in the long term, makes them less competitive. Advantage China!

If you want companies to invest heavily, or even individuals, where there will be an eventual jobs payout, maybe we should do (against my better judgement) what other countries do and subsidize industry that invests R&D dollars in areas that have great potential?

We can lament all we want about a shrinking middle class. But it won't cure the problem. Our liberal society wants their cake and eat it too. We spend hundreds of billions on programs that encourage people to stay poor, that this country really can't afford, and at the same time we want to tax the hell out of companies that are ********** and that also provide the greatest opportunity for jobs creation. But taking away the profit motives reduces the motivation to absorb risk and create jobs.

One day we will wake up and realize that we have spent our way into oblivian.

[Shol'va]

Corporations are too short sighted. They have become obsessed with the bottom line so that shareholders will give the chosen few a big bonus, and they can cash out quick and screw over the workers. Shipping jobs to China hurts in the long run. People will say its great that it creates lower priced goods, but it comes at a cost... the middle class, the worker. These same people forget that workers are the consumers. You can't have competition when the competition has slaves and you are a proud American that wants to employ your fellow countryman so that they can put food on the tables for their kids. Americans used to look out for each other, now it's a free-for-all on who can make the quickest buck, regardless of innovation, pride, and ethics. China is literally buying the USA with the money that proud American workers used to make.


"Corporation, n: An ingenious device for obtaining profit without individual responsibility."

-Ambrose Bierce

Could not have said it better myself..Well maybe I could but I didn't..

[spywizard]

My state attempted to pass manditory union laws that would make it manditory for every employee to be in the union if one existed. They may have even been trying to make unions manditory...I can't remember for sure. Other than something like this I don't see how gov. can cause any reform in employee pay by a private industry.

wisconsin took care of that shit...

[spywizard]

with the price of gas being $4.00.... can someone figure out what factor of inflation that is if the medium income of the middle class family has gone down in the past 4 yrs...

it's alot..

[gixxerboy1]

wisconsin took care of that shit...

i heard his law was overturned for be unconstitutional

[spywizard]

you mean the only elected offical that has survived a recall election?? (my bad there was 1 other offical that survived a recall election)

and it was overturned by a judge.. but that's not the last word for sure..

yet another reason (the union operation of "pensions") why it's more expensive for anyone to get an education in the USA..

[lovbyts]

There is a lot of blame to go around for poverty.

A lot of it is just plain laziness and people feeling Entitled to higher pay and benefits without earning them. Entitlement mentality.

We also have the government that is continually making it easier for people to be comfortable at the poverty level decreasing the desire to want or need to better yourself.

We have to many people that because someone has more than they do automatically thinks that person is obligated to share or they didnt work for it and it's not fare.

Then we have the greedy people who believe profit is the bottom line at any or anyone's expense and there is never enough.

My wife worked for someone like this in the Philippines. Her direct boss made several hundred thousand a year and more in bonuses. She did all the accounting and his expenses including the paperwork so he could get his bonuses and would call her at home because he didnt know how to do his own work and relied on her to do everything and would go into panic mode when it came bonus time because he didnt want to miss out but knew if she didnt do it for him he wouldn't get it. She make $7 a day. I could NEVER do that. I could never have that much of a discrepancy between me and an employee especially someone who worked directly under me and I relied on for so much.

[songdog]

I worked for GE in Sheveport La years ago.When I 1st went to work there I couldnt believe all the people who just messed around.2nd shift was maybe 1/2 the size of 1st shift if that.But they always out produced 1st shift and all their senior workers.These people felt it was their right to work there.And they would act like it.I can see why our jobs left beacuse my boss told me.They had plants that were worse than ours.And he also said that any time there is profit sharing if the checks get to be to much it wont last.

[AD]

I can think of one thing the government is in charge of that can help elevate people out of poverty: education.

I am not saying the government is good at educating, but it is one service they provide that has the power to break the cycle of poverty.

Other than that, all I think they can do is create an environment where business can thrive. I am split on whether the government should protect the poor with minimum wage laws. I know it places a burden on business, but I also know business can be predatory towards their workers. Obviously some industries are worse than others.

i also think education and training is the best way. increase gov spending in education/school infrastructure to give the next generation the best chance to succeed.

industry-specific gov-paid or subsidized training/re-training for the current workforce so they can get better paying jobs or not lose their jobs during a recession.

and kill off any sort of corruption in all shapes and forms, so that smart/capable people can succeed, and not just people who are connected.

but seriously, why are you guys from the US talking about poverty?...lol

[Times Roman]

i also think education and training is the best way. increase gov spending in education/school infrastructure to give the next generation the best chance to succeed.

industry-specific gov-paid or subsidized training/re-training for the current workforce so they can get better paying jobs or not lose their jobs during a recession.

and kill off any sort of corruption in all shapes and forms, so that smart/capable people can succeed, and not just people who are connected.

but seriously, why are you guys from the US talking about poverty?...lol

mate
we've BEEN increasing gov spending in education for 30 years, and our test scores keep dropping. the spending is sufficient and the teachers salaries are high. would you like to take another stab at a solution?

and it almost sounds like you are running for political office. How do you propose to do this? the killing off of any sort of corruption in all shapes and forms? a new law? make em promise to be nice?

[AD]

mate
we've BEEN increasing gov spending in education for 30 years, and our test scores keep dropping. the spending is sufficient and the teachers salaries are high. would you like to take another stab at a solution?

and it almost sounds like you are running for political office. How do you propose to do this? the killing off of any sort of corruption in all shapes and forms? a new law? make em promise to be nice?

Maybe i am believing everything i see on the news. But i dont see any poverty in the US. Most likely the poorer folks in the US are still making more than a year's salary of a real poor guy in a poor country. How much is social welfare money a month for someone not working?

Idk. Send your teachers to sch instead. Haha.

[AD]

I'm no lawyer. Not even sure of the law in my country. But, what will a guy get over there is he tries to pay a cop off when stopped for something like speeding. Thats a form of corruption right? What will the guy get?

[Times Roman]

I'm no lawyer. Not even sure of the law in my country. But, what will a guy get over there is he tries to pay a cop off when stopped for something like speeding. Thats a form of corruption right? What will the guy get?

Most cops nowadays are sophisticated enough to know to not take the bribe.

the biggest offfenders are white collar criminals and politicians. the laws are already on the books making what they do illegal.

[AD]

Most cops nowadays are sophisticated enough to know to not take the bribe.

the biggest offfenders are white collar criminals and politicians. the laws are already on the books making what they do illegal.

So there is a law but no enforcement? Does the cop just go ahead with the speeding ticket or book the guy an additional charge of attempting to bribe? Whats the point of having a law if its not enforced. Whats the point of increasing more spendings in education if the money is not used to produce better teachers and smarter kids?

But really. Are we really discussing poverty in US???

[Times Roman]

Maybe i am believing everything i see on the news. But i dont see any poverty in the US. Most likely the poorer folks in the US are still making more than a year's salary of a real poor guy in a poor country. How much is social welfare money a month for someone not working?

Idk. Send your teachers to sch instead. Haha.

here is a link explaining the federal poverty level
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/pover...w/measure.html

and an example:
Example
Family A has five members: two children, their mother, father, and great-aunt.

Their threshold was $27,517 in 2011




Here's the PROBLEM i have with FEDERAL poverty level.
that amount of income in SanFrancisco, Ca, has significantly less purchasing power than it would in Greensboro, Alabama. In fact, in Greensboro, that amount wouldn't be too bad. But the feds say a family living at either location are both at the poverty level.

The federal system is NOT EQUITABLE!!!

[Times Roman]

So there is a law but no enforcement? Does the cop just go ahead with the speeding ticket or book the guy an additional charge of attempting to bribe? Whats the point of having a law if its not enforced. Whats the point of increasing more spendings in education if the money is not used to produce better teachers and smarter kids?

But really. Are we really discussing poverty in US???

The cop only writes a ticket in most states (although in some states they collect the fee on the spot). A motorist would have to be a fool to offer a cop a bribe nowadays.

Mate,
I think maybe things are culturally different here is why you are asking your questions.

Maybe in your country, there is little spending on education.

Here, we spend alot. But the teachers belong to an extremely powerful union, and over the last 30 years, their pay has skyrocketed, although the quality of what they produce, educated children, has been seriously deteriorating. Throwing MORE money at the problem is NOT the solution!! The problem is the system. We have a fat and lazy education system, protecting teachers with a "ten year" (tenure) system of job entitlement. Some teachers get to be really strange, mentally and physically, after reaching tenure. But the school districts are unable to remove those teachers, even if they are barely even teaching, because of the strong unions. This is an extreme example, but it illustrates that once a teacher reaches tenure, they no longer have to work as if their jobs depend on it.

[AD]

So you already know whats wrong with the system but it cant be fixed. What more can i say. If all the ingredients remain the same, the outcome will remain the same.

My parents were poor when i was growing up. The right education and upbringing got me a comfortable life now.

So how to beat poverty? Give all your younger generation a better education. Poor parents can have rich kids too.

You're not poor so you dont have to worry!... lol

[JohnnyVegas]

the backbone of the middle class a generation ago WAS manufacturing jobs. But this is UNSKILLED labor! As third world countries are increasingly industrializing and putting their unskilled and very cheap labor to work, they are much more competitive per manufacturing dollar spent compared to our unionized labor pool. This puts downward pressure on our current labor rate so that our products can compete with other products produced from these poor countries.

Interesting point: one of things companies have done is to turn skilled labor INTO unskilled. Take a butcher for example. They have knowledge and a skill set that makes them worth some money. The current trend is to take the 20 things a butcher would do to process an animal and give it to 20 people, each with a very specific, tiny part of the process that they can do quickly, thousands of times a day. The task is so simple they can find another person to do this menial job in an instant and train them quickly.

I have no real point, but I have always found this business practice fascinating.