Hey Guys, BW Results In. Nervous!

[warmouth]

I dont know what I amlooking at, but I am for some reason very nervous. Could I get you guys to look this over and tell me if everything is ok? I am wanting to get some input on this asap before I have to show my wife. The DRs note was "Abnormal lab results. Need to see you, lipids too high!!!!!!!"
Anyways, here it is:

CMP - COMPREHENSIVE METABOLIC PROF
GLUCOSE 82 mg/dL 60-100 F
SODIUM 137 mmol/L 136-145 F
POTASSIUM 4.7 mmol/L 3.5-5.0 F
CHLORIDE 100 mmol/L 98-110 F
CARBON DIOXIDE 26 mmol/L 22-29 F
CALCIUM 10.1 mg/dL 8.4-10.5 F
TOTAL PROTEIN 8.0 g/dL 6.4-8.3 F
ALBUMIN 4.5 g/dL 3.5-5.4 F
A/G RATIO 1.3 CALC F
GLOBULIN 3.5 g/dL F
ALK. PHOS. 128 U/L 40-150 F
ALT (SGPT) 114 U/L 0-55 F
AST (SGOT) 55 U/L 5-34 F
TOTAL BILIRUBIN 0.80 mg/dL 0.20-1.20 F
BUN 16 mg/dL 7-26 F
BUN/CREAT RATIO 15.0 CALC F
CREATININE 1.1 mg/dL 0.7-1.3 F
eGFR (Non-African American) 81 * >60 F
eGFR (African American) 98 * >60 F
*** GFR results are not applicable if patient <18 years old.
* Units = mL/min/1.73m2
Stage 1 >= 90
Stage 2 60 - 89
Stage 3 30 - 59
Stage 4 15 - 29
Stage 5 < 15

LIPID - LIPID PROFILE
CHOLESTEROL 391 mg/dL 0-200 F
HDL 31 mg/dL 40-80 F
TRIGLYCERIDES 198 mg/dL 0-149 F
HDL RISK FACTOR 12.6 CALC F
*** RISK CATEGORY *** LDL-CHOLESTEROL GOAL
VERY HIGH (DIABETES + CVD) < 70 MG/DL
HIGH (DIABETES; CHD RISK EQUIVALENTS) < 100 MG/DL
MODERATELY HIGH (MULTIPLE (2+) RISK FACTORS) < 130 MG/DL
0 TO 1 RISK FACTORS < 160 MG/DL
LDL (CALCULATED) 320 CALC 1-130 F

CBC - COMPLETE BLOOD COUNT
WBC 10.2 x10\S\3/uL 4.1-10.9 F
GRAN# 6.6 x10\S\3/uL 2.0-7.8 F
GRAN% 64.6 % 37.0-92.0 F
HCT 44.3 % 37.0-51.0 F
HGB 15.4 g/dL 14.0-17.9 F
LYMPH# 3.1 x10\S\3/uL 0.6-4.1 F
LYMPH% 30.5 % 10.0-58.5 F
MCH 28.5 pg 26.0-32.0 F
MCV 81.9 fL 80.0-97.0 F
MCHC 34.8 g/dL 31.0-36.0 F
MID# 0.5 x10\S\3/uL 0.0-1.8 F
MID% 4.9 % 0.1-24.0 F
MPV 9.5 fL 0.0-99.8 F
PLT 401 x10\S\3/uL 140-440 F
RBC 5.41 x10\S\6/uL 4.20-6.30 F
RDW 15.7 % 11.5-14.5 F

CK - CREATINE KINASE
CREATINE KINASE 558 U/L 30-200 F

TSH - TSH
TSH 0.79 uIU/mL 0.49-4.67 F
METHODOLOGY CHANGE DUE TO RUNNING ON I1000
TOTAL TESTOSTERONE 370.30 ng/nl

[warmouth]

Liver Enzymes seem too be aweful. Been taking 250 mgs UDCA ED for 1.5 months. Cholesterol, Tryglycerides, are HIGH, HDL is LOW. LDL is HIGH. RDWis a bit high. Creatine Kinase is 3Xs the highest it should be. Normal is 30-200. Mine is 558! I dontknow what any of this means and need some expert advice. Thank you!

[Atomini]

I just looked at your lipid profiles, I haven't looked over anything else yet because you mentioned your doctor said he was alarmed by your lipid profiles. They are definitely high.

Your total cholesterol is 391mg/dl. Normal range (depending on age and such, of course) should be 200mg/dl or less.

HDL (High Density Lipoprotein), which is your 'good' cholesterol, is 31mg/dl. That is considered low. Low HDL is considered less than about 40mg/dl. The desireable high range should be greater than 60mg/dl.

LDL (Low Density Lipoprotein), which is your 'bad' cholesterol, is 320mg/dl. Optimal LDL levels should be less than 100mg/dl. If you're between 100-150mg/dl, that's not too bad. You're at serious levels if you are higher than about 180mg/dl. Yours is 320mg/dl. Quite frankly, that is FVCKED. You have some seriously high bad LDL levels.

What does your diet look like? And are you taking anything (AAS, peptides, chems, anything) at the moment?

[Atomini]

What are you taking the UDCA for? Are you on any oral AAS?

I do know (and have mentioned this many times, especially in my liver thread) that UDCA/TUDCA if taken too much or for too long can cause bad lipid profile changes. But at 1.5 months of use at 250mg every day, that shouldn't be causing this. What else, if anything, are you using? And how clean is your diet?

[Atomini]

Also, a lot of this stuff is reversible so don't freak out. Just need to find the causes of what's going on and correct it.

[Vettester]

Agree with Atomini 110%!!

Please breakdown any medications you're taking, alcohol, oral AAS, vitamins, etc. Even Niacin can cause liver stress.

[RaginCajun]

like the other two said. write out everything, i am sure we all can come up with some solutions

[warmouth]

Ok guys. Here goes:
Fish oil- 1000mgs ED
Vitamin C 250mgs ED
Multi V- ED
Liquid Cia- 15mgs E3Ds
Losartin for Hypertension
Lortab - 40mgs ED (arthritis)- I am sure this has something to do with liver enzymes. Have been looking into other options for a while. I hate them!
UDCA- 250mgs ED
Dymatize and Gold Standard Protien 2X daily
Axiron 120mgs ED (TRT) stopped taking a few weeks ago and started taking self prescribed Cyp @ 125mgs a week. I stopped that 1 week before BW was drawn.

Started UDCA because of an anavar cycle a couple months ago. Just stayed on them because of the lortab useage, plus any other supplement I might be taking unknowing of possible effects. My diet is normal. I have been eating the same my whole life. I am not eating as clean as I would be cycling. I am trying to add weight right now, so I havent been watching what types of calories as much, but still trying to eat over maintenance. It is just easier for me right now not to focus on being on a 100% clean diet while trying to bulk. If this could be the problem, I will definitely clean it up.(Please note, I drink sweet iced tea constantly. I know it isnt a good idea to drink so much of it while trying to build a solid body, but it is a weakness that I cant shake.) I know my DR is going to want to re-run the labs, I just need to know what to do before hand. I am going to buy some time and go back in 2 weeks, so what should I do between now and then? And is the liver enzymes as bad as Iam imagining? They werent mentioned in the note, only the lipids. I know the lortab is horrible on the liver, and that is why I kept running the UDCA after the Var cycle. If I know something else that worked as good for pain, I would drop these thing fast! I know I have built up a dependance n them for taking them for so long, and that is why I hate them. So what should I be doing right now?

*Edit* - I do not drink alcohol in any form or fashion. I might have 3 beers al year, if that. I dont like alcohol.

[Capebuffalo]

Ok guys. Here goes:
Fish oil- 1000mgs ED
Vitamin C 250mgs ED
Multi V- ED
Liquid Cia- 15mgs E3Ds
Losartin for Hypertension
Lortab - 40mgs ED (arthritis)- I am sure this has something to do with liver enzymes. Have been looking into other options for a while. I hate them!
UDCA- 250mgs ED
Dymatize and Gold Standard Protien 2X daily
Axiron 120mgs ED (TRT) stopped taking a few weeks ago and started taking self prescribed Cyp @ 125mgs a week. I stopped that 1 week before BW was drawn.

Started UDCA because of an anavar cycle a couple months ago. Just stayed on them because of the lortab useage, plus any other supplement I might be taking unknowing of possible effects. My diet is normal. I have been eating the same my whole life. I am not eating as clean as I would be cycling. I am trying to add weight right now, so I havent been watching what types of calories as much, but still trying to eat over maintenance. It is just easier for me right now not to focus on being on a 100% clean diet while trying to bulk. If this could be the problem, I will definitely clean it up.(Please note, I drink sweet iced tea constantly. I know it isnt a good idea to drink so much of it while trying to build a solid body, but it is a weakness that I cant shake.) I know my DR is going to want to re-run the labs, I just need to know what to do before hand. I am going to buy some time and go back in 2 weeks, so what should I do between now and then? And is the liver enzymes as bad as Iam imagining? They werent mentioned in the note, only the lipids. I know the lortab is horrible on the liver, and that is why I kept running the UDCA after the Var cycle. If I know something else that worked as good for pain, I would drop these thing fast! I know I have built up a dependance n them for taking them for so long, and that is why I hate them. So what should I be doing right now?

*Edit* - I do not drink alcohol in any form or fashion. I might have 3 beers al year, if that. I dont like alcohol.

You realize beer contains alcohol. But 3 a year we won't count. How old are you
Family history paternal side.

[S&S_ShovelHead]

Testosterone levels are low.

[warmouth]

You realize beer contains alcohol. But 3 a year we won't count. How old are you
Family history paternal side.

Ha ha. I needed that! I should have stated it differently. I am exaggerating by 3 even though. I am 30.

My mothers side, there is heart disease. But they live LONG lives still. I have got to know my great grand parents and even great, great grandmother. My great aunt died a few months ago at 92. My great grandmother turned 90 3 days ago, and she drinks, smokes, smokes weed, and eats bad. I have some uncles that have had heart attacks between the ages of 40-60, but are still alive. One is in bad shape though.

My fathers side, same thing. There is heart disease, but overall, they live a long time. My great grandmother is in bad health, but she is 92. She takes cholesterol meds, has hypertension, diabetes, and parkensons.

Hypertension runs rampant on my mothers side, and to a lesser extent, my fathers side.

[warmouth]

Testosterone levels are low.

Yes. I have been on TRT for a year. It is topical test, and it doesnt do much. I like running low doseages of cyp instead. I dropped it all 1 week before the labs were ran. My sex drive is no existant on the topical rub on test. Could the Cyp at low doseage ran up the LDL?

[warmouth]

Another thing I am reading on that I have a question. Could the horrid lipid profile make the liver enzymes bad? I see that they have an affect on each other. Or Vise verca? Could the bad liver enzymes contribute to the bad lipids?

[Atomini]

Bad lipid profile and bad liver enzymes are often related. I don't know about this case though.

In your Lortabs, what is the acetaminophen:hydrocodone ratio? Your liver enzymes are elevated but not that bad. Your biribulin is 0.80 mg/dL. Normal range should be 0 - 0.30mg/dl. I'm just wondering if the acetaminophen content is high enough to cause liver enzymes values to be elevated as they are. It sounds like everything is the way it should be there.

But here's one suggestion for you: drop the UDCA immediately. Not only is it near useless for acetaminophen-related liver damage, but it could be one of the factors in your lipid changes. Liver damage from acetaminophen is completely different from liver damage caused by AAS or alcohol. UDCA is very beneficial for compating a condition known as cholestasis, which is what oral anabolic steroids are responsible for causing. Acetaminophen-related liver toxicity is really something completely different. When acetaminophen is metabolized by the liver, some of it is metabolized into a toxic byproduct known as NAPQI (which stands for N-acetyl-p-benzoquinoneimine). When acetaminophen is taken in recommended doses, your body can quickly remove this toxic by-product in the urine. However, when the liver needs to suddenly metabolize overdose or very frequent levels of acetaminophen, too much of the toxic NAPQI is produced and it starts injure and destroy the main cells of the liver. UDCA will do nothing against this. Best advice is to drop the UDCA for starters.

This is the problem when people read about UDCA or any related such things, they think it is the king liver protectant against EVERYTHING harmful to the liver. No. Different things that are hepatotoxic are hepatotoxic for different unrelated reasons. UDCA just happens to be very good at assisting the liver in dealing with cholestasis. It can't really do very much for NAPQI toxicity.

Other than that thus far, i'd reccomend eating as clean as possible.

[Atomini]

Also, your Test Cyp TRT dosage seems fine. I can't see that being the cause of such drastic lipid profile changes.

[warmouth]

The Lortabs are 10/500. Sometimes, only a handful of time is 2 years, I was given 10/800 by the pharmacy. I really need to drop them totally, but other than the psysiologial dependance, the pain I deal with can be unbearabe at times. I have got to find something that actually works and doesnt cause physical dependance. Heck, I would drop them and deal with pain, if that were even possible. I use my body very hard at work. And over the years, it is beginning to break down. That was a big push into the AAS. Well, that and TRT. I would like to mention that over the past few months, my heart rate is higher, BP is harder to control, and I have had a galloup for a couple of years. Heartbeat is somewhat irregular. My cardiologist told me it was somewhat normal and shouldnt be a concern(the gallop and irregular beating). He had me on a monitor I wore home for 24 hours. It has gotten a little worse over the past couple of years. But Atomini, as far as the BW, do you really think this stuff is reversible?

[warmouth]

Also, your Test Cyp TRT dosage seems fine. I can't see that being the cause of such drastic lipid profile changes.

I was actually considering bumping it since my total test was in the 300s. Not going to do anything other than eat better until we can nail down what to do. I trust you guys more so than a genphy.

[Atomini]

What is your daily dose of the Lortabs? If you're taking 1 a day, you'd be taking 800mg of acetaminophen per day. That's not enough to cause serious issues but it will raise your liver enzymes a bit, and your bilirubin levels reflect that quite well. Like I said, levels are not very bad though. If you are REALLY concerned and don't want to be intaking the acetaminophen with the hydrocodone, there IS a way I know of where you can extract the pure hydrocodone from the tablets and leave the acetaminophen behind, called cold water extraction and I can tell you how to do it. It's basic chemistry, you can do it in your kitchen, it takes like 10-30 minutes. Doing this will save your liver from the acetaminophen-related liver toxicity.

And yes your lipid values and everything are reversible, you just need to find the cause of the changes. When was your last bloodwork done before this? I'm just curious as to whether or not this has been some recent immediate change, or if you perhaps have had these values for a very long time but you just didn't know it because you haven't had bloodwork done in a long time.

[Atomini]

Your total test in the 300s isn't THAT bad, you know. Yes, it's on the low end of normal. But its still within the normal range. Normal range for a male, depending on age, is 260 - 900ng/dl (give or take a couple hundred, depending on your doctor and his opinions). 370ng/dl isn't too bad. You could bump it up a bit more if you wanted to get you higher in that range.

[warmouth]

Well, the lortabs I take currently are 10/500 4X daily. I have been know to take 6, but that is due to overdoing it big time at work. I have seen something about cold water extraction, but have no idea where to start. I was afraid I would lose or waste what is needed. But my test levels are what I am attributing to my sex drive. I am serious Atomini, in my teens and early 20s, I could have sex 20 times a day. I wanted it that much even. At about 27, I started really noticing a drop. When I got married a couple years ago, it was non-existant. When I was on cycle, it was much better, but no where near where I wanted it. My wifes emotions is what made me insecure about it. She thought it was her, but it was 100% me. We dated for 8 years before marriage, and refrained from sex for a long time(her idea). But it is like it just went away, and I stopped thinking about it. I could still get aroused, but would collapse on itself after a few minutes. Once I started the Prop, it got alot better, but still not what it used to be. If you dont mind, I would like to see that cold water extraction(I just dont trust trying it without being certain on what I am doing) if you could message me about it. Thanks!

[RaginCajun]

Your total test in the 300s isn't THAT bad, you know. Yes, it's on the low end of normal. But its still within the normal range. Normal range for a male, depending on age, is 260 - 900ng/dl (give or take a couple hundred, depending on your doctor and his opinions). 370ng/dl isn't too bad. You could bump it up a bit more if you wanted to get you higher in that range.

i always wonder why there is such a huge range when it comes to 'normal' range for test (260-900). it seems as if they could change this to get a more accurate assessment of what is low and what is considered normal.

[warmouth]

^^^I know, I hate that. It is such a huge spread. And I also forgot to mention in the last post. My BW from 15 months ago showed elevated lipids. They werent as high, but still high. I dont remember the liver enzymes though. They told me then that I needed to keep an eye on the cholesterol.

[Atomini]

Well, the lortabs I take currently are 10/500 4X daily. I have been know to take 6, but that is due to overdoing it big time at work. I have seen something about cold water extraction, but have no idea where to start. I was afraid I would lose or waste what is needed. But my test levels are what I am attributing to my sex drive. I am serious Atomini, in my teens and early 20s, I could have sex 20 times a day. I wanted it that much even. At about 27, I started really noticing a drop. When I got married a couple years ago, it was non-existant. When I was on cycle, it was much better, but no where near where I wanted it. My wifes emotions is what made me insecure about it. She thought it was her, but it was 100% me. We dated for 8 years before marriage, and refrained from sex for a long time(her idea). But it is like it just went away, and I stopped thinking about it. I could still get aroused, but would collapse on itself after a few minutes. Once I started the Prop, it got alot better, but still not what it used to be. If you dont mind, I would like to see that cold water extraction(I just dont trust trying it without being certain on what I am doing) if you could message me about it. Thanks!

Trust me, cold water extraction WORKS! And now things are a little more clear - if you're taking 10/500 four times a day, that's 2,000mg per day every day of acetaminophen. I'd reccomend you cold water extract everything to get all of the acetaminophen out. Cold water extraction removes about 95% of the acetaminophen, leaving behind 100% of the opiate since the opiate is far more water soluble than the acetaminophen, especially at low temperatures. It's 30 minutes out of your day, and i'd reccomend you do it to save yourself the liver troubles. I'll PM you.

The issue of your sex drive could be due to many different factors.

i always wonder why there is such a huge range when it comes to 'normal' range for test (260-900). it seems as if they could change this to get a more accurate assessment of what is low and what is considered normal.

I totally agree here, it's crazy. They should at least have different 'zones' or brackets for different age ranges. The range is far too massive to begin with. I don't know who came up with it to begin with.

[SEOINAGE]

Look at some recent studies about cholesterol. You are high, but a ton of research says that the 200 top range is almost meaningless. You do need to do something about your triglycerides and work on improving good cholesterol. I would make some changes and see if you can get it under 300. low 200 range would be great. but thinking you have to get it under 200 is bull shit.

[MickeyKnox]

You realize beer contains alcohol. But 3 a year we won't count. How old are you
Family history paternal side.

we also need your full name and address, including any part time positions you may have held at mcdonalds.


lol.

[warmouth]

we also need your full name and address, including any part time positions you may have held at mcdonalds.


lol.

I used to work there! I am going to have to cut out eating there from the looks of things Thanks for all the advice guys! Thanks for everything youve done and researched for me too Atomini! I look forward to checking out the CW extraction. This site is the best.

[Atomini]

You should now have a PM now about how to perform the CW extraction. Guaranteed if you consume your hydrocodone in that manner, you'll save your liver and your bilirubin readouts should drop over time. I don't understand why doctors perscribe things like Lortabs, which contain a hefty amount of acetaminophen for people with pain issues that need to be taking it multiple times a day. It'll shred your liver up over the long run.

As far as lipid profile is concerned, the first and only thing I can think of in this case is your diet has to be the cause. Try to eat as clean as you can.

[RaginCajun]

You should now have a PM now about how to perform the CW extraction. Guaranteed if you consume your hydrocodone in that manner, you'll save your liver and your bilirubin readouts should drop over time. I don't understand why doctors perscribe things like Lortabs, which contain a hefty amount of acetaminophen for people with pain issues that need to be taking it multiple times a day. It'll shred your liver up over the long run.

As far as lipid profile is concerned, the first and only thing I can think of in this case is your diet has to be the cause. Try to eat as clean as you can.

cuz pharm companies pay them too!



keep us updated on your progress warmouth!

[warmouth]

I will guys. Probably a stupid question, but should you be completely "off" cycle when gettingbasic BW done? Dosnt AAS normally raise lipid profiles? I was off when I did it, but just wanting to verify. I will keep updated for sure!

[Atomini]

Yes it does change lipid profiles. You should get it done when you're off cycle UNLESS you are specifically doing it to check values while you're on.

[Capebuffalo]

Warmouth will this affect you and continuing in the competition?
Seems like you may need to take some time?

[warmouth]

Warmouth will this affect you and continuing in the competition?
Seems like you may need to take some time?

Still planning on it. You think it might be a bad idea? We are still a month or so out. Did any of you guys catch the CREATINE KINASE levels? I just noticed that.

[gixxerboy1]

Still planning on it. You think it might be a bad idea? We are still a month or so out. Did any of you guys catch the CREATINE KINASE levels? I just noticed that.

Its normal for that to be elevated in someone who works out hard. Mine is more then double yours. Every dr has said its fine

[Hoggage_54]

I dont like alcohol.

[Vettester]

Usually CK is looked at with people who are at risk for heart attack, or possibly having heart issues in general. Atomini might know better if your results need to be reviewed closer or not.

Also, with HRT patients, sometimes CK is ordered in conjunction with thyroid labs; specifically TSH, FT3, RT3, FT4, and thyroid antibodies. I don't see any thyroid labs up there, and IMO you should include these panels, AND, I think it would be wise to check ferritin & iron panels. I'm a carrier with hemochromatosis, and at one point I had very similar issues like yours with my liver. My ferritin levels were > 1500. I had to get a liver biopsy to confirm this. It turned out that my dad's side is where it comes from, however his ferritin is about 1/2 of mine (some it's worse than others). The increased iron for all of these years has more than likely taken a toll on some of my organs (per my doctor), and I have some pretty bad arthritis from it as well.

Along with making some hefty lifestyle changes at 40yo, I also donate blood every 60 days, which now keeps my ferritin in check (at/around 100 now). Trust me, running these labs will be worth peace of mind, and if anything you can rule it out and move on.

[BUTTERYGOODNESS]

Holy hell... I'm lost, I need to learn more...

[warmouth]

Its normal for that to be elevated in someone who works out hard. Mine is more then double yours. Every dr has said its fine

Thank God! Thank you Gixxer, I was pointed that out and got freaked. That is so good to know!

[warmouth]

Usually CK is looked at with people who are at risk for heart attack, or possibly having heart issues in general. Atomini might know better if your results need to be reviewed closer or not.

Also, with HRT patients, sometimes CK is ordered in conjunction with thyroid labs; specifically TSH, FT3, RT3, FT4, and thyroid antibodies. I don't see any thyroid labs up there, and IMO you should include these panels, AND, I think it would be wise to check ferritin & iron panels. I'm a carrier with hemochromatosis, and at one point I had very similar issues like yours with my liver. My ferritin levels were > 1500. I had to get a liver biopsy to confirm this. It turned out that my dad's side is where it comes from, however his ferritin is about 1/2 of mine (some it's worse than others). The increased iron for all of these years has more than likely taken a toll on some of my organs (per my doctor), and I have some pretty bad arthritis from it as well.

Along with making some hefty lifestyle changes at 40yo, I also donate blood every 60 days, which now keeps my ferritin in check (at/around 100 now). Trust me, running these labs will be worth peace of mind, and if anything you can rule it out and move on.

This is what chaps my butt about my DR. I didnt notice until you brought it up, but I asked them to run a full thyroid panel. I told them I wanted to get everything possible checked for. They know I hate getting BW done and I told them this is the 1 time they get it for a year. And they didnt freaking run it. Sucks. In your opinion, since they asked me to come back in, what should I expect them to do? Will they order in more BW, or maybe just give me meds? I started running Test P the day after, so I am a week into it. I chose the Prop so in case something was wrong, I could stop it and go back within a week. I dont want to do that, but I chose that route just in case. Should I stop the Test P a week before I go back, or just tell them no more BW for a while? I figured they wouldnt run it again, but who knows. I definitely dont want to stop what I started a week in, but definitely will if needed. Thanks for that reply!

[lovbyts]

You should now have a PM now about how to perform the CW extraction. Guaranteed if you consume your hydrocodone in that manner, you'll save your liver and your bilirubin readouts should drop over time. I don't understand why doctors perscribe things like Lortabs, which contain a hefty amount of acetaminophen for people with pain issues that need to be taking it multiple times a day. It'll shred your liver up over the long run.

As far as lipid profile is concerned, the first and only thing I can think of in this case is your diet has to be the cause. Try to eat as clean as you can.

This site never ceases to amaze me with the amount of information people have and what I dont know. All the years I have been taking Vicodine/Hydrocodone and I have never heard of cold water extraction. Luckily my doctor did prescribe me it with the lowest amount available I believe 10/325 but none is probably better.

Really you take 4 - 6 a day? I take 2 usually but try to manage with 1 most of the time and ever couple of months I go a couple of weeks without just to see if I can but typically something happens where I have to go back to 1 or 2. I would like to use none.

I also find a good anti inflamitory is typically more helpful than the hydrocodone most of the time. I would rather be without the hydrocodone than anti inflamitory if I HAD to pick. Joints start getting to sore/stiff after more than 24 hrs without.

I also have HIGH cholesterol. Not as high as what my last test showed really elevated levels but I was taking tren and winny at the time on top of TRT.

My personal belief is most doctors get really concerned when they see high cholesterol because they see another car payment due to life long prescription for Lipitor, Crestor or some other drug that has a potential to destroy muscle tissue and do more harm than good.

[warmouth]

This site never ceases to amaze me with the amount of information people have and what I dont know. All the years I have been taking Vicodine/Hydrocodone and I have never heard of cold water extraction. Luckily my doctor did prescribe me it with the lowest amount available I believe 10/325 but none is probably better.

Really you take 4 - 6 a day? I take 2 usually but try to manage with 1 most of the time and ever couple of months I go a couple of weeks without just to see if I can but typically something happens where I have to go back to 1 or 2. I would like to use none.

I also find a good anti inflamitory is typically more helpful than the hydrocodone most of the time. I would rather be without the hydrocodone than anti inflamitory if I HAD to pick. Joints start getting to sore/stiff after more than 24 hrs without.

I also have HIGH cholesterol. Not as high as what my last test showed really elevated levels but I was taking tren and winny at the time on top of TRT.

My personal belief is most doctors get really concerned when they see high cholesterol because they see another car payment due to life long prescription for Lipitor, Crestor or some other drug that has a potential to destroy muscle tissue and do more harm than good.

I hat taking the stuff man. I really do. For me, since I have used it so long, I built up a tolerance and needed more for the same effect. I used to try to deal with the pain and manage it with 1 or 2 a day. But I really believe the stupid things are meant to get you hooked. There has to be something better. And putting acetaminaphen in them is moronic. Supposedly it is in there so people wont abuse them. Like that works....... But now when I go without, the pain is worse than usual, and the phsycological part is just as bad. I have motrin 600, and it helps pretty good, but it doesnt do anything for the mental game. It really sucks and I know that is what is causeing the liver problems. I have been using the CW extraction, and it isntquite as powerful, but it helps, and fulfills the mental aspect. I might be doing it wrong, and that may be the reason for it not being as powerful. But I am glad we have access to processes like this from Atomini and others. This is a great place to be a part of! And I really dont want to go oncholesterol meds, andam going to try and straighten it out with diet. I showed my mom yesterday, and she broke down in tears. She asked me if I took steriods and I told her no. That bothered me. She is uneducated on them other than what she hears on TV and Drs at her work. She doesnt understand that most injectables arent liver toxic, butI feel she needs to be in the dark on this subject anyways.