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  1. #1
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    Darwinism vs creationism

    Which do you believe and why?

    Please play nice, be polite and respect others views and beliefs!

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    Darwinism for me. Spent a couple years as an anthropology major in college. It makes it a lot harder to argue against when you can hold the fossil remains in your hands and see the gradual changes that happened leading up to modern day humans.

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    im no bible expert but my pastor is pretty close and ive been thru the book of Genesis at my church which took a year to do. he went thru verse by verse every sunday. explanations were given for dinosaurs, the age of the earth, 6 literal day creation, adam and eve, garden of eden.. etc.. etc..

    not to mention im a christian and have had a relationship with God for 4 years. (sometimes not a good of one as i should but a relationship nonetheless).

    the thing about it is Lunk spiritual truths will not make sense to a non-believer.. this is also in the Bible. i can attest to this first hand as i did not become a christian until i was 33yrs old. (38 now )

    in retrospect i suppose the best answer i could give about why i believe in creationism would be because God says this was how the world was created in the Bible. what he says goes and is true whether u believe it or not! we also have a class at church which explains a lot of how u can know the bible is true.

    this thread should be interesting i think. hopefully everyone can keep it respectful (myself included)

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    Times Roman's Avatar
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    I do not believe in "Creationism". Now matter how you label it, by adding the "ism" at the end, it is still NOT science.

    Just because a biological system is extremely complex doesn't mean only "god" can be responsible for it's existance.

    Just because evolutionary theory does not have ALL the answers, it does not represent a failure in the theory. It just means our understanding is incomplete.

    When you get right down to it, creationism is simply a fancy term of a certain type of dogma, which in this case is called religion.

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    Oh gawd another hot button topic...I prefer to be a catholic because I can sin all week long then go in for forgiveness and be absolved of all my sins so I can start all over again the next week. Also I could become a Priest and diddle all the little altar boys on the side...

    And for those that don't know me that was a joke. Homey don't play with little boys only big ones...

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    This will not go well.

    I will point out that only the most extremely non-inellectually curious person will say Darwinism (adaptive evolution/natural selection) doesn't exist. Even the Pope says evolution exists (because it is irrefutable)...he just disagrees that it is the origin of life. It is possible to believe in both.

    I will also point this out to anyone that says "evolution is just a theory." In science, a theory is NOT just someone's wacky idea. It is a well-confirmed explanation backed up by evidence. That evidence is acquired knowledge that is then constantly corrected and added to as more science is done. IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS NOT UNPROVEN. IT IS NOT SPECULATIVE. It is rigorous and comprehensive. In this case, it is backed up by thousands of pieces of archeological evidence among other things.

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    Times Roman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    im no bible expert but my pastor is pretty close and ive been thru the book of Genesis at my church which took a year to do. he went thru verse by verse every sunday. explanations were given for dinosaurs, the age of the earth, 6 literal day creation, adam and eve, garden of eden.. etc.. etc..

    not to mention im a christian and have had a relationship with God for 4 years. (sometimes not a good of one as i should but a relationship nonetheless).

    the thing about it is Lunk spiritual truths will not make sense to a non-believer.. this is also in the Bible. i can attest to this first hand as i did not become a christian until i was 33yrs old. (38 now )

    in retrospect i suppose the best answer i could give about why i believe in creationism would be because God says this was how the world was created in the Bible. what he says goes and is true whether u believe it or not! we also have a class at church which explains a lot of how u can know the bible is true.

    this thread should be interesting i think. hopefully everyone can keep it respectful (myself included)
    the only problem is that saying there is a god because the bible says so is called a circular reference, and is a type of logic failure.

    so let me ask,

    how is the bible any more correct than the koran? or the book of mormon?

    actually, i'm not going to get into this discussion, as it is a prime example of rational thinking vs. emotional response, and these two halves of the brain usually dont' communicate very well.

    Cheers kids!
    Remember to play nice =)

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    Let me explain the biggest reason for this thread.

    My daughter is a senior in high school and spent her first 8 years of schooling in a perocial school. She has been raised with Christain her whole life and now in school they are pushing Evelolution as the only option available. She was/is not happy.

    My wife and I were discussing it during a road trip one night. My wife is not one who really cares to debate even though I love to. She did a great job this time. She is very Christian and I will say I am at a confusing point in my life being raised Catholic but finding way too many reasons to question things as I have gotten older.

    Moving on to the debate. I of course took the side of evolution and her creationism. At one point her argument to me was this "if we evolved from apes, then why are there still apes"? I was stumped lol. My argument to her was, "if God created man in his image and IF you believe we decended from cave men, then does God look like a Cave Man"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    Moving on to the debate. I of course took the side of evolution and her creationism. At one point her argument to me was this "if we evolved from apes, then why are there still apes"? I was stumped lol. My argument to her was, "if God created man in his image and IF you believe we decended from cave men, then does God look like a Cave Man"?
    It is because we did not evolve from modern apes. We share a common ancestor, which is long extinct.

    The problem is that evolution is not linear. Groups splinter off and change in isolation (or for another reason).

    Check out "allopatric speciation"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas View Post
    It is because we did not evolve from modern apes. We share a common ancestor, which is long extinct.

    The problem is that evolution is not linear. Groups splinter off and change in isolation (or for another reason).

    Check out "allopatric speciation"
    Would you agree or disagree that we are all ancestors of Cave men?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    the only problem is that saying there is a god because the bible says so is called a circular reference, and is a type of logic failure.

    so let me ask,

    how is the bible any more correct than the koran? or the book of mormon?
    well T.R. the i cant honestly compare the bible to the koran or book of morman because i havent read those books. i can tell u the bible is full of fulfilled prophecy. not to mention all the historical accuracy. there is even science in the bible.

    most importantly (and this is something that cant be proven to the rational minded) God has used the scriptures in the bible to speak to me personally regarding certain circumstances i may have been in at the time. this is why i made the statement spiritual truths will not make sense to a non-believer. God made things this way.

    ill give u an example:
    1 corinthians 1:21
    "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

    i wish i had better knowledge to be able to impart more to answer ur question. i suppose i need to read the bible more it is important as a christian to try to spread the good news of the bible which is salvation thru faith in christ, however i am not naive enuff to think i can "prove" the bible is true to anyone who does not believe it.. as jesus said:

    (john 6:44) Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

    (john 6:65): 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

    God has to make the first move (not me) ..

    BTW TR i used to make the same arguments about how can we know christianity is the "true religion".. LOL i got my answer after many years of pain, suffering and addiction that led me to see my need for God who was the only one who could deliver me from my pain..

    hopefully the same will happen for all u guys

  12. #12
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    The why are there still apes is easily explained. It's the same reason that are staff infections and drug resistant staff infections. During the course of evolution not everything in the group inherits the new traits that develop.

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    is this basically a question of whether you believe in science or in God?

    i believe science is only a description of God's work. simple example, from my daughter's science text book. there was a chapter on magnets. science says that magnet attracts and repels because of the magnetic field that is generated. but who put the magnetic field there in the first place?

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    Not sure "cave men" is an actual thing.

    I think we have a common ancestor that goes back further than Neanderthals (which a lot of people might refer to as cave men?) because there is a lot of talk right now about how much Neanderthals may have bred with our early ancestors.

    We all came from Africa at one point.

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    I believe we we're created here. People think it was a god and in a way they are right but have the wrong view of what that is. Aliens are what i believe theres no way so many cultures were so close in describing what a god was and there being no way of them communicating with one another.

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    Intelligent design = stupid design


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    Quote Originally Posted by njs View Post
    I believe we we're created here. People think it was a god and in a way they are right but have the wrong view of what that is. Aliens are what i believe theres no way so many cultures were so close in describing what a god was and there being no way of them communicating with one another.
    Well, the Creationists are just going to ask, "who created the aliens?"

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    ShredMN is offline Banned
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    Also the story about jonah and the whale automatically renders the entire bible as false to me.

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    I'm trying to think about how I can express my views without being disrespectful. To say I do not hold creationism in high regard would be the understatement of the year.

    Science is constantly evolving itself and may not always be correct. You have to take it with a grain of salt. Religion is best taken with poisoned Kool-Aid.

    That being said, there is more to being human than molecules and atoms. We can be something greater than the sum of our parts.

    Belief according to Death: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnaQX...ure=plpp_video

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    Let me explain the biggest reason for this thread.

    My daughter is a senior in high school and spent her first 8 years of schooling in a perocial school. She has been raised with Christain her whole life and now in school they are pushing Evelolution as the only option available. She was/is not happy.

    My wife and I were discussing it during a road trip one night. My wife is not one who really cares to debate even though I love to. She did a great job this time. She is very Christian and I will say I am at a confusing point in my life being raised Catholic but finding way too many reasons to question things as I have gotten older.

    Moving on to the debate. I of course took the side of evolution and her creationism. At one point her argument to me was this "if we evolved from apes, then why are there still apes"? I was stumped lol. My argument to her was, "if God created man in his image and IF you believe we decended from cave men, then does God look like a Cave Man"?
    without looking it up I'm under the impression we didn't evolve for modern apes(obviously) we all evolved from a primate species somewhere along the line this primate species broke into different branches one evolving into modern humans and into modern apes and some evolving into species that have gone extinct

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    "if we evolved from apes, then why are there still apes"?

    because there is still a natural habitat where apes can thrive in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas View Post
    Not sure "cave men" is an actual thing.

    I think we have a common ancestor that goes back further than Neanderthals (which a lot of people might refer to as cave men?) because there is a lot of talk right now about how much Neanderthals may have bred with our early ancestors.

    We all came from Africa at one point.
    I should have said Neanderthals instead of Cave men, but since physical evidence has been found of Neanderthals existance and when comparing them to modern humans, it's hard not to believe that those are not our incestors

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    Quote Originally Posted by asiandude View Post
    "if we evolved from apes, then why are there still apes"?

    because there is still a natural habitat where apes can thrive in.
    San Diego Zoo!!! Have you seen them? They are monsters!

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    Quote Originally Posted by asiandude View Post
    "if we evolved from apes, then why are there still apes"?

    because there is still a natural habitat where apes can thrive in.
    The Jersey Shore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by asiandude View Post
    "if we evolved from apes, then why are there still apes"?

    because there is still a natural habitat where apes can thrive in.
    Why is evelution of those apes not still occuring? Why are there no creatures in existance that are primates in different stages of evolution? Did the process just stop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    Why is evelution of those apes not still occuring? Why are there no creatures in existance that are primates in different stages of evolution? Did the process just stop?
    Evolution is an extremely long process. It doesn't just happen overnight, but fossil records clearly prove that it is fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas View Post
    San Diego Zoo!!! Have you seen them? They are monsters!
    and in the jungles with Tarzan...lol

    but seriously, species only go extinct when their habitat changes faster than their own evolution/mutation. if they cant adapt fast enough, they die. but this doesnt mean that all the lower evolutionary species are automatically extinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    Why is evelution of those apes not still occuring? Why are there no creatures in existance that are primates in different stages of evolution? Did the process just stop?
    if there is no change to their habitat, and the ape's current characteristics are well suited to their current environment, then there is no further evolution, cos they are already extremely well suited to their current environment. nothing else can climb trees and eat bananas better than them...

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    because evolution is bullcrap Lunk.. thats why.. we did not evolve from apes thats absurd!

    God creating us in his image is not specifically related to how we look. it is more spirit, intellect, emotion. God is a spirit. Jesus is the only one of the trinity that has a body and he didnt have a body until he was born.

    i was also raised catholic and had to learn christianity on my own as an adult and i saw how many holes the catholic faith had in their theology.

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    if there is a god why has forsaken me

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank13 View Post
    if there is a god why has forsaken me
    usually its us who have forsaken Him. all we have to do is ask Him to come back into our lives.

    or it could be a test...

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    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    because evolution is bullcrap Lunk.. thats why.. we did not evolve from apes thats absurd!

    God creating us in his image is not specifically related to how we look. it is more spirit, intellect, emotion. God is a spirit. Jesus is the only one of the trinity that has a body and he didnt have a body until he was born.

    i was also raised catholic and had to learn christianity on my own as an adult and i saw how many holes the catholic faith had in their theology.
    I was raised catholic...did the whole alter boy thing (escaped with my virginity lol) but have definetly questioned faith more and more over the years. It sucks because my wife and daughter or very big believers. I hope to someday find your faith 405...your a damn walking insperation in so many ways, you suck

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    No offense to Jesus because I respect what he taught and suffered for, but who can possibly say that Jesus is the son of god, and that's a fact. To put it simply, religion was created when the first non-intellectual (to put it kindly) met the first con man. Organized religion is killing people on a daily basis, it's better to just end the charade now and find something else to take comfort in. The only religions that I approve of (and belong in this world) are buddhism and confucianism.

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    I want to add that I appreciate the maturity and politness in this thread at this point. Thanks for keeping it civil!!

    By the way...lets stay on topic,

  35. #35
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    believing in evolution doesn't necessarily mean not believing in God. who made the DNA and mutation change in a certain way and not the other?

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    I am going to step in and just say this.

    I have had this fruitless discussion a hundred times. You CANNOT develop a rational argument that will persuade those that believe in god. Belief in god is not a Rational decision, but an emotional one! And the same is true for those that embrace science. Emotion has no place in a scientific discussion.

    I can sit here all day and poke holes in the bible and show a variety of major contradictions, but it does no good! Being rational/logical will not change the opinion of someone that will not embrace the scientific method.

    IMHO, this discussion is as fruitless as Republicans and Democrats trying to find compromise.

    But this thread WILL attract alot of attention!

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    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    because evolution is bullcrap Lunk.. thats why.. we did not evolve from apes thats absurd!

    God creating us in his image is not specifically related to how we look. it is more spirit, intellect, emotion. God is a spirit. Jesus is the only one of the trinity that has a body and he didnt have a body until he was born.

    i was also raised catholic and had to learn christianity on my own as an adult and i saw how many holes the catholic faith had in their theology.
    over a hundred years of science, and almost every scientist would disagree with that comment. very very few in the intellectual community would disagree with Darwinism.

    OK, NOW i'm going to step out.

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    Im still confused. We are destroying the natural habitat of animals (including apes) everday, forcing them closer and closer to poulated areas, yet why is there no evidence of current evolution of apes to men being discovered today. Isn't evelution an on going and never ending process?

    Seems crazy that all of the evolution occured and then just stopped with us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman

    over a hundred years of science, and almost every scientist would disagree with that comment. very very few in the intellectual community would disagree with Darwinism.

    OK, NOW i'm going to step out.
    In addition to that, most religions have no problem with evolution (including the Pope, for you Catholics) but they do not agree it is the origin of life. Evolution, as a process, is irrefutable.

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    Evolution never stops, not until a species becomes extinct. Also a huge flaw in creatonism. Why do so many animals have vestigial structures, (structures which serve no current purpose, but had a purpose at some point in the time line of life) why do humans have a coccyx (tailbone), why do whales have leg bones, why do flightless birds have wings, why do blind, cavedwelling creatures have eyes, why do boas have pelvis remnants. All of these vestigial traits clearly point to evolution.

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