Home automation

**Tron3219** · 01-22-2013, 10:01 AM

Does anyone have any experience with this? Thinking about automating my home, not sure which system to go with.

**dan991** · 01-22-2013, 09:51 PM

What are you trying to accomplish?

**austinite** · 01-22-2013, 10:05 PM

Stats?

jk. vivint is supposed to be up and coming. They'll give you a quote for what you're trying to do over the phone.

**Eddie_m63** · 01-22-2013, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Does anyone have any experience with this? Thinking about automating my home, not sure which system to go with.

Waste money if u ask me, except for alarm the rest is just for lazy people lol...

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by austinite

Stats?

jk. vivint is supposed to be up and coming. They'll give you a quote for what you're trying to do over the phone.

2200 sqft, 3br 2.5 ba, formal dr, 2 car garage, built 2012, energy efficient green house haha

actually that's why I started looking into it. But I wanna take it a step further, I'm a creature of excess! Lol I wanna b able to control a/v system, lighting, a/c, pretty much everything with electricity that passes through it with my iPad lol

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

! Lol I wanna b able to control a/v system, lighting, a/c, pretty much everything with electricity that passes through it with my iPad lol

That's gonna be expensive if your house wasn't wired during construction. REALLY expensive. There are other ways to do it by using different gauges but that's pretty much a hack. Look into Control4 since its a newer house. http://www.control4.com/

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by dan68131

That's gonna be expensive if your house wasn't wired during construction. REALLY expensive. There are other ways to do it by using different gauges but that's pretty much a hack. Look into Control4 since its a newer house. http://www.control4.com/

It's prewired for security, house is wired through truth cat 5 cable, but from what I can see is its modulated through radio and cellular frequency

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 11:45 AM

Well, your best bet is to honestly have a contractor come out and look. Control4 is the top of the line for equipment.

As far as wireless- you'll wanna stay away from that because long term it never works right. Home automation equipment uses a wireless protocol called Zigbee. Its really hit or miss half the time and going wired is the way to go for reliability. There are some that use cellular (my hot tub uses cellular) however that comes with a monthly recurring bill. That's an embedded modem typically running on AT&T or TMobile reseller's SIM cards. Having CAT 5 throughout the house will definitely increase your functionality and options but its really dependent on how/where its ran and what you wanna do. The stuff you see on TV being offered by companies like Comcast, ADP, etc. is junk and typically most people want to cancel within the first 90 days because it doesn't work right. Its a cool tablet/iPhone app however there are a lot of instances where the system just doesn't work.

**DSM4Life** · 01-23-2013, 03:18 PM

I bought a new thermostat called nest. I can control the temp in my house anywhere with my iPhone or iPad. It works off my house wifi connection. It even "learns" your temp needs and can auto detect when people are/aren't home.

**Eddie_m63** · 01-23-2013, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

I bought a new thermostat called nest. I can control the temp in my house anywhere with my iPhone or iPad. It works off my house wifi connection. It even "learns" your temp needs and can auto detect when people are/aren't home.

Apple???

**DSM4Life** · 01-23-2013, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie_m63

Apple???

I believe Apple bought them out.

http://www.nest.com/

**DB1982** · 01-23-2013, 05:10 PM

Like Dan said contact a local company.
Its going to be EXPENSIVE!! between equipment and labor. As far as what your option are.
I personally wouldn't go to extreme in a 2,200sq home. You'll never recoupe your investment from it. Complete home Automation is a HIGH END option reserved for high end homes.
I have never installed ( Complete ) Automation in a home smaller then 6500sqft.
Not to say others don't its just not a good turn around investment in a smaller home.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by DB1982

Like Dan said contact a local company.
Its going to be EXPENSIVE!! between equipment and labor. As far as what your option are.
I personally wouldn't go to extreme in a 2,200sq home. You'll never recoupe your investment from it. Complete home Automation is a HIGH END option reserved for high end homes.
I have never installed ( Complete ) Automation in a home smaller then 6500sqft.
Not to say others don't its just not a good turn around investment in a smaller home.

Well I just bought the house a year ago, and got a great deal on it, I already have 30k in equity because what I bought it for vs. what it's worth. It's a smaller home, but everything in it is high end. Marble throughout the house, marble entry way (floor), mahogany custom cabinets (all), stainless appliances, coffered trey ceilings in every room. 10ft ceilings (10.5 inside trey), high end hardware, crown molding throughtout, motorized shades, the showers have glass tiling with rain style shower head, river stone floor, fireplace in living room and master br, porches are tiled in slate. It's a very clean house, and like I said, I have a lot if equity in it already so I'm not to concerned with turn around. And I'm in the early stages of research, but my father and myself will probably install it. The attic was put together in a way that its incredibly easy for wire drops if need be, but the house is wired with cat5 cable already. My dad has a lot of electrical/electronics experience and I have electrical/carpenter experience so I'm confident we can do it. As far as the equipment goes, I'm thinking 5k would b a good starting point. Really the only thing I want to be able to control remotely away from the house is the security system with live feed cameras. The rest (av, thermostat, lights, fans, etc) I'd like to b able to use my iPad as a universal remote.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 05:31 PM

I was basically looking to see if anyone has experience with it because it appears there are a few different technologies as far as wireless, didn't find much on hardwired equipment.

**DB1982** · 01-23-2013, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Well I just bought the house a year ago, and got a great deal on it, I already have 30k in equity because what I bought it for vs. what it's worth. It's a smaller home, but everything in it is high end. Marble throughout the house, marble entry way (floor), mahogany custom cabinets (all), stainless appliances, coffered trey ceilings in every room. 10ft ceilings (10.5 inside trey), high end hardware, crown molding throughtout, motorized shades, the showers have glass tiling with rain style shower head, river stone floor, fireplace in living room and master br, porches are tiled in slate. It's a very clean house, and like I said, I have a lot if equity in it already so I'm not to concerned with turn around. And I'm in the early stages of research, but my father and myself will probably install it. The attic was put together in a way that its incredibly easy for wire drops if need be, but the house is wired with cat5 cable already. My dad has a lot of electrical/electronics experience and I have electrical/carpenter experience so I'm confident we can do it. As far as the equipment goes, I'm thinking 5k would b a good starting point. Really the only thing I want to be able to control remotely away from the house is the security system with live feed cameras. The rest (av, thermostat, lights, fans, etc) I'd like to b able to use my iPad as a universal remote.

Sounds like you have a very nice home.
5k isn't really that much. I would figure out exactly what you want then start pricing equipment.
You said you have powered shades so I would figure out what system controls those and see whats compatible with them before sticking to a certain brand.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by DB1982

Sounds like you have a very nice home.
5k isn't really that much. I would figure out exactly what you want then start pricing equipment.
You said you have powered shades so I would figure out what system controls those and see whats compatible with them before sticking to a certain brand.

The motorized shades have a programmable remote, which means the shades have a module capable of transmitting and receiving. I was talking to my dad and he seems to think if I found a central dock that has several (20+) channels with the capacity of reading and storing each frequency it shouldn't be an issue. In essence a multifunction remote. The only issue I see is the a/v system because its IR, not RF, which seems to b what most of this is ran on (RF)

**DSM4Life** · 01-23-2013, 05:58 PM

Samsung is going to be releasing transparent data glass soon. So you can touch the glass or remote virtual blinds.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 06:01 PM

And yes, it's pretty nice, I got a hell of a deal. The home builder association builds a home every few years and all the builders get together and throw in all these extras and donate a lot of time and materials, so the HBA gets it for like half price and sell it for about 75% of actual value to move it fast. Well I was lookin for a house (first) and my dads wife works for HBA as VP so I had the inside, the second it went in the market I was there with my earnest money. Worked out great.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

Samsung is going to be releasing transparent data glass soon. So you can touch the glass or remote virtual blinds.

Siiiiiiiick! Minority report status!

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

I was basically looking to see if anyone has experience with it because it appears there are a few different technologies as far as wireless, didn't find much on hardwired equipment.

I'm an RF Engineer by trade (wireless protocols, modulation, antennas, and intentional radiators) if that helps... but now I wear a tie and sign paperwork.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by dan68131

I'm an RF Engineer by trade (wireless protocols, modulation, antennas, and intentional radiators) if that helps... but now I wear a tie and sign paperwork.

So u think the RF switches for say lights and fans wouldn't work very well? Like I said I'm in early stages of research but from what I gather zigabee and z wave are different, is that right? Also, the control4, is that wired?

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

So u think the RF switches for say lights and fans wouldn't work very well? Like I said I'm in early stages of research but from what I gather zigabee and z wave are different, is that right? Also, the control4, is that wired?

WiFi, Zigbee, etc. are all 2.4 GHz ISM Band (Industrial, Scientific, Medical). The overlaying protocol (communications language) for the data being sent and received is where Zigbee, WiFi, etc. come in. For example- both WiFi and Zigbee are 2.4 GHz within the same band space. The difference is the "language" of WiFi and Zigbee are different.

The problem with ISM band gear is that there is no regulatory oversight on those bands. That means they are prone to interference (think cordless phones back in the day). Since is not dedicated you sometimes end up with issues like switches not responding to a signal and so on. Its a YMMV thing to be honest... depends on a lot of factors. Some people have no problems some people can't get the systems to work right 50% of the time because of other influences from the outside. So... its risky either way.

Control4 has both wired and wireless.

Sorry if some of this is confusing... trying to explain details at a higher level is sometimes hard to do especially over the internet.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by dan68131

WiFi, Zigbee, etc. are all 2.4 GHz ISM Band (Industrial, Scientific, Medical). The overlaying protocol (communications language) for the data being sent and received is where Zigbee, WiFi, etc. come in. For example- both WiFi and Zigbee are 2.4 GHz within the same band space. The difference is the "language" of WiFi and Zigbee are different.

The problem with ISM band gear is that there is no regulatory oversight on those bands. That means they are prone to interference (think cordless phones back in the day). Since is not dedicated you sometimes end up with issues like switches not responding to a signal and so on. Its a YMMV thing to be honest... depends on a lot of factors. Some people have no problems some people can't get the systems to work right 50% of the time because of other influences from the outside. So... its risky either way.

Control4 has both wired and wireless.

Sorry if some of this is confusing... trying to explain details at a higher level is sometimes hard to do especially over the internet.

Nah, it made perfect sense to me, I know dum dum lol

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 06:53 PM

Best bet, buy some CHEAP home automation equipment from like Best Buy where you can return it without question if it sucks. The more people in your area- the more likely it will suck. If you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere; you're good to go. In a subdivision... meh... you can try. That's the only way; unless you have a spectrum analyzer and then you can do a signal sweep of the area and look for issues that way.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by dan68131

Best, buy some CHEAP home automation equipment from like Best Buy where you can return it without question if it sucks. The more people in your area- the more likely it will suck. If you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere; you're good to go. In a subdivision... meh... you can try. That's the only way; unless you have a spectrum analyzer and then you can do a signal sweep of the area and look for issues that way.

Yeah, the z-wave lighting control is reasonable, I may do that. I'm assuming it would be near to impossible to shield my house huh? Tho I think it may b slightly shielded. I get shitty cell service inside and poor wifi outside. It has that aluminum covering to cut down in uv.

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Yeah, the z-wave lighting control is reasonable, I may do that. I'm assuming it would be near to impossible to shield my house huh? Tho I think it may b slightly shielded. I get shitty cell service inside and poor wifi outside. It has that aluminum covering to cut down in uv.

You could shield it but you'd be the weirdo on the street. You can create an anechoic chamber by wrapping your house in steel.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by dan68131

You could shield it but you'd be the weirdo on the street. You can create an anechoic chamber by wrapping your house in steel.

Something a lil less obtrusive? Lol

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Something a lil less obtrusive? Lol

Not really... that's the problem with ISM bands. There is no regulation. Your neighbors garage door opener literally could potentially shut off your lights or turn on your TV. Most of the time that doesn't happen because of a range issue but it CAN happen because there aren't any rules that say otherwise.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by dan68131

Not really... that's the problem with ISM bands. There is no regulation. Your neighbors garage door opener literally could potentially shut off your lights or turn on your TV. Most of the time that doesn't happen because of a range issue but it CAN happen because there aren't any rules that say otherwise.

Gotcha...so I just did some research, and z-wave runs at 900 MHz...isn't that what the old cordless phones and CB's run on?

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Gotcha...so I just did some research, and z-wave runs at 900 MHz...isn't that what the old cordless phones and CB's run on?

Yep, and 10,000 other things; which makes it unreliable. That's why I said go wired.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by dan68131

Yep, and 10,000 other things; which makes it unreliable. That's why I said go wired.

How does interference happen if the device being controlled has a "node address" that has to be paired with the network address of the controller and can only be controlled by that network address? It's like pairing Bluetooth right?

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 07:58 PM

The interference isn't in respects to the addressing of devices. That's part of the communications protocol. The "interference" is based on the device not even getting the data or "packet loss" per se. The engineering term is called "Near Far Syndrome". Essentially its like sticking a French dude and a German dude in a small room. Both start screaming in their own language. The problem is because both are screaming their own language you really can't make out what either are saying so you just ignore it as noise.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by dan68131

The interference isn't in respects to the addressing of devices. That's part of the communications protocol. The "interference" is based on the device not even getting the data or "packet loss" per se. The engineering term is called "Near Far Syndrome". Essentially its like sticking a French dude and a German dude in a small room. Both start screaming in their own language. The problem is because both are screaming their own language you really can't make out what either are saying so you just ignore it as noise.

Ahhhh so it's a RF strength issue. An outside signal overpowering controller to device...gotcha...so if the controller has a strong enough transmitter or not is the problem with unreliability?

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Ahhhh so it's a RF strength issue. An outside signal overpowering controller to device...gotcha...so if the controller has a strong enough transmitter or not is the problem with unreliability?

So.. there are two types of messages- mobile terminated and mobile originated. If there is packet loss- the action does not occur (i.e. turn on light). Any outside interference creates packet loss. Once you start dropping packets "over the air" then you have reliability issues you can't over come.

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by dan68131

So.. there are two types of messages- mobile terminated and mobile originated. If there is packet loss- the action does not occur (i.e. turn on light). Any outside interference creates packet loss. Once you start dropping packets "over the air" then you have reliability issues you can't over come.

Hypothetically speaking, u have two devices that need to communicate wirelessly. Your getting packet loss. You have all means necessary to remedy the problem. How do you fix it?

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 08:19 PM

Btw...thanks for the explanations...I'm always up to learn something lol

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Hypothetically speaking, u have two devices that need to communicate wirelessly. Your getting packet loss. You have all means necessary to remedy the problem. How do you fix it?

Well, you can either change the frequency or remove the packet loss from outside sources. ISM bands use centered frequencies meaning that "2.4 GHz" is really 2.40 and the channels can skew between a range from 2.20 to 2.49 for example. But since the center freq. is 2.4; all other devices in the same range can also use the same bands. You would have to jump to a different bandset.

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Hypothetically speaking, u have two devices that need to communicate wirelessly. Your getting packet loss. You have all means necessary to remedy the problem. How do you fix it?

Typically the over the air interface (aka comm protocol like Zigbee) has built in packet protection. This is usually a hex header that has the number of bytes in the incoming packet as well as a termination byte. If a packet is dropped; the receiver knows as it didn't receive the same payload as expected and defined in the header. The problem you get with the RF cross talk from other devices is that sometimes even the header gets screwed up over the air and the device just see's garbage which its programmed to ignore.

So- you have two choices; change the frequency or change the protocol BUT if the other devices frequency is the same- still screwed because it will cause packet loss regardless of the protocol. RF power output however can change things. You don't want to amplify the signal as if its already garbage; you're just amplifying garbage. You need to either switch bands or remove the outside RF interference.

Whew... what happened to talking about boobies?! LOL

**dan991** · 01-23-2013, 08:53 PM

Damnit I come here for boobies, arguing with Lunk, and making fun of 405's 90 year old body... and I end up working.... lol

**Tron3219** · 01-23-2013, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by dan68131

Damnit I come here for boobies, arguing with Lunk, and making fun of 405's 90 year old body... and I end up working.... lol

Haha we all love those things lol thanks again

See I guess I wasn't understanding because I was always under the impression that RF was broadcasted and got weaker as the transmission got further away and if it overlapped with another transmission, the stronger transmission would prevail. But from what I gather it just scrambles the transmission if they overlap. Period.

I thought it was like German and French yelling equals noise, but u speak German so u give the German guy a megaphone...now u can't hear the French guy

And u know u like displaying ur knowledge...we all do...we're all infantile ego maniacs in here lol