Hypothesis: "High Estrogen Environment Necessary For Maximum Tren Efficacy"

[Java Man]

There are very few studies about body composition and tren in people, Probably because it's not intended to be used by people and not approved by the FDA for humans, but in cattle its the number one supplement for increasing lean mass.

This suggests tren should be run in at least an equal test/tren ratio, if not higher test, with perhaps dbol and nolva instead of arimidex so as not to kill the estrogen, but regulate it instead.

Cattle use finaplix pellets in the following configurations:

Heifers (female cows before their first calf):
140mg Trenbolone Acetate, and 14mg of Estradiol

Steers (castrated male cattle):
120mg of Trenbolone Acetate and 24mg of Estradiol

Heifers 69 days or less from slaughter:
200mg Trenbolone Acetate

It's apparent that body composition increases in lean body mass in males requires a higher rate of estrogen to be added (as females already have estrogen). IE: Tren needs a high estrogen environment.

I think the main reason for this is that trenbolone (like nandrolone) is a 19-nortestosterone derivative, and a Progestogen (meaning it has progesterone like action) and in fact binds at about 60% of the effectiveness of progesterone at the progesterone receptor.

So whats this got to do with estrogen?? Progesterone receptors up regulate in the presence of high estrogen:

An excerpt from Wikipedia:
"...Progesterone exerts its primary action through the intracellular progesterone receptor although a distinct, membrane bound progesterone receptor has also been postulated.[23][24] In addition, progesterone is a highly potent antagonist of the mineralocorticoid receptor (MR, the receptor for aldosterone and other mineralocorticosteroids). It prevents MR activation by binding to this receptor with an affinity exceeding even those of aldosterone and other corticosteroids such as cortisol and corticosterone.[25] Progesterone has a number of physiological effects that are amplified in the presence of estrogen. Estrogen through estrogen receptors upregulates the expression of progesterone receptors.[26] Also, elevated levels of progesterone potently reduce the sodium-retaining activity of aldosterone, resulting in natriuresis and a reduction in extracellular fluid volume."

According to this data, you want high oestrogen with tren. High levels of test (and dbol) that aromatise to high levels of estradiol would be good...

I'm going to experiment with this and see how it goes, using nolva to prevent gyno, but not reduce estrogen levels. I'm not gyno prone anyways. In the early 90's we knew nothing about SERMs, SARMs, and very little about AI. Nolvadex and HCG were known and used. I personally could not get HCG back then, not even in Mexico. Its funny... They'd sell me any drug I asked for except opioid compounds and placenta juice. I didn't get it! Anyway the point its that 7 cycles later I don't have gyno. I used nolvadex usually, when I could get it. PCT was old school taper over 8 weeks. 200mg, 175, 150, 125, 100, 50, 25- 25 while running nolva.

I don't know about an online log but I'll be tracking measurements and strength, body weight and fat% in a log at home. My main issue right now is love handles. I'm pretty lean everywhere else.

Comments?

[lovbyts]

High E2 with tren is easy even with low Test. Even with an AI mine was over 300 sensitive last time. I will know if using 2x the AI works any better soon.

What are you thinking is a good number for E2? Personally I dont think its a good idea because what I have seen in the past if E2 is high then your test is lower than it should be.

[Java Man]

I'm thinking more along the lines of using enough test to get a good bit of aromatization. I started with 600/w test e, 400 tren.

As for raw E2 number I don't know. I'm going to need bloods every week to do this scientifically but I can't do that. I have stane to kill the estrogen if it becomes messy and I can always abort and start pct early.

I'm just tired of the same old cycle experience. I need to experiment.

[Atomini]

They purposely implant/inject E2 into cattle with Trenbolone in order to increase the efficiency of lean mass volume and feed efficiency.

Would this have the same effect in humans? Maybe.

Would you WANT this kind of hormonal environment in your body? I know I absolutely wouldn't.

Are you seriously saying you are willing to put up with the health risks of excessively high Estrogen levels just because you want some extra muscle on a Trenbolone cycle? I think this is absurd thinking. Do you realize the detrimental effects of excessive Estrogen levels on the subsystems of the body? The prostate? Blood pressure? Many other things? If you want to do it go ahead, but my suggestion to others is: SAFETY FIRST - KEEP YOUR ESTROGEN LEVELS IN NORMAL PHYSIOLOGICAL RANGES, NO HIGHER AND NO LOWER!

I think that purposefully skyrocketing your Estrogen levels on a cycle just to split hairs to gain a bit more muscle despite the health risks is a very stupid idea and nobody should be promoting such a practice. This is all we need, 5 years from now we'll have the new trend in the AAS-using community being newbies who are purposefully trying to achieve high rates of aromatization while on a Trenbolone cycle because somewhere long ago someone thought "hey if farmers do this with cattle to maximize LBM, we should do it to ourselves too!".

I hear blowtorches are great for melting fat off your body, and obviously do it far quicker than diet, cardio, clen, T3, or even DNP. Maybe i'll try blowtorching my fat off. Yes, that is an extreme comparison and a very huge exaggeration, but my point here is that there is an inherent danger involved in excessive E2 levels, which is why we at all times should keep Estrogen in the normal physiological range at all times while on cycle... not purposely skyrocket it.

[Atomini]

By the way, many UGLs don't even properly brew their Trenbolone correctly with Finaplix pellets, with almost always contain Estrogen in them as well. Most of the time if you use Trenbolone, you are already injecting pure Estrogen into yourself with Trenbolone.

Next time you do a Trenbolone cycle, inject Trenbolone ONLY for the first week of your cycle, get bloodwork done, and then you will find out if your UGL is cutting corners by brewing Finaplix pellets with Estrogen in it, and not separating the Estrogen.

[Java Man]

High E2 with tren is easy even with low Test. Even with an AI mine was over 300 sensitive last time. I will know if using 2x the AI works any better soon.

What are you thinking is a good number for E2? Personally I dont think its a good idea because what I have seen in the past if E2 is high then your test is lower than it should be.

Can you elaborate on that last sentence? If you mean if E2 is highER than test youre in trouble, baby! Cause youre turning into a woman but if test is 2000 and E2 is 800 youre ok. That's what I expect. Not ok necessarily but still very much male and should still be in an anabolic state. I expect high estrogen (relative) due to inevitable aromatization and no AI. ... Unless I misunderstood your meaning.

[Java Man]

By the way, many UGLs don't even properly brew their Trenbolone correctly with Finaplix pellets, with almost always contain Estrogen in them as well. Most of the time if you use Trenbolone, you are already injecting pure Estrogen into yourself with Trenbolone.

Next time you do a Trenbolone cycle, inject Trenbolone ONLY for the first week of your cycle, get bloodwork done, and then you will find out if your UGL is cutting corners by brewing Finaplix pellets with Estrogen in it, and not separating the Estrogen.

I didn't know that. Thanks. I will do what you suggested. It is UGL. I'll need to come back to baseline before I do this experiment. I didn't suggest anyone else should do this. I'm not basing the hypothesis on the oversimplified representation in the OP and you don't know me so I won't get offended by your assumption that I'm such an ignorant simpleton that I would think " if we do this with cows maybe it'll work in me' I do have a little more background knowledge and experience than that.

[lovbyts]

What I am saying is you are taking enough Test that your levels SHOULD be 2000 but due to aromatization and your E2 goes above normal say 100 - 300 your testosterone levels will only be 900 (estimated). This is what I have seen when doing blood work. If my E2 is elevated then my test levels are lower than they should be so it's not doing it's job properly I believe. If you keep the E2 levels in check your Test levels will be higher.

[Atomini]

I didn't know that. Thanks. I will do what you suggested. It is UGL. I'll need to come back to baseline before I do this experiment. I didn't suggest anyone else should do this. I'm not basing the hypothesis on the oversimplified representation in the OP and you don't know me so I won't get offended by your assumption that I'm such an ignorant simpleton that I would think " if we do this with cows maybe it'll work in me' I do have a little more background knowledge and experience than that.

I by no means was inferring that you were being ignorant or simplistic. But guess what? This WILL work in humans... for building muscle. But you need to ask yourself the following questions:

Is it worth any benefit in any other aspect to the body? No. We have documented the negative effects of excessive Estrogen levels in men pretty extensively. It isn't pretty.

Is it going to provide any increased muscle growth? Yes. However...

Is it going to provide any increased muscle growth that very significant above running Trenbolone in a normal Estrogen environment? Probably not. You're probably splitting hairs with this hypothesis.

You'd need to have this conducted in a proper double-blind placebo controlled study to be able to see whether or not there is any significant difference in LBM and strength between a group that uses Trenbolone without excessive Estrogen levels, a group that uses Trenbolone with exessive Estrogen levels, and then a control group, and it needs to be done on humans which will unfortunately never happen in our lifetime.

Well, you can try it out yourself... but there are too many uncontrolled variables here that is going to end up in inaccurate results (especially since you're not directly comparing it with any other 'test subjects' simultaneously). Are you getting bloodwork done to monitor your E2 levels? And are you going to be doing it on a weekly basis? Either way, let us know how it goes.

[kelkel]

Interesting back and forth but I'd have to err on the side of safety and keeping E2 in check. I'd put my effort into a different nutrition and / or training strategy, IMHO.

[jimmyinkedup]

You missing the mark. The goal in beef is marbilization or fat. That is partly why the estradiol inclusion. Also they could give a **** about gyno or anything else, Its given to animals going to slaughter. In addition they are steers (castrated bulls)...they have literally no test and thus virtually no estrogen so supplementation is prob beneficial to a degree. Not the case with us.

[warmouth]

Great read and nice discussion. However, there is absolutley no way I would purposfully try to raise my estro levels. That does some nasty stuff to mens bodies. Goes to show that women are very resilliant and tough as nails.

[warmouth]

You missing the mark. The goal in beef is marbilization or fat. That is partly why the estradiol inclusion. Also they could give a **** about gyno or anything else, Its given to animals going to slaughter. In addition they are steers (castrated bulls)...they have literally no test and thus virtually no estrogen so supplementation is prob beneficial to a degree. Not the case with us.

We posted at the same time. You make a great point Jimmy! The marblization is the key that all cattle farmer (selling beef cattle that is) strive for. If it werent for the excess estrogen, then the meat would have so little fat that it would be practically worthless, other than in some asian markets. Great point!

[panntastic]

We posted at the same time. You make a great point Jimmy! The marblization is the key that all cattle farmer (selling beef cattle that is) strive for. If it werent for the excess estrogen, then the meat would have so little fat that it would be practically worthless, other than in some asian markets. Great point!

Hungry now

[Knockout_Power]

Does Tren not inhibit estro binding? So what are they saying, estro needs to be present or needs to bind?

[Atomini]

Great read and nice discussion. However, there is absolutley no way I would purposfully try to raise my estro levels. That does some nasty stuff to mens bodies. Goes to show that women are very resilliant and tough as nails.

Well, it has more to do with what each gender's hormonal environment is SUPPOSED to be, as programmed by genetics. The same thing you mentioned could be said about women and excessive Testosterone levels. With that being said, Estrogen still is one of the components responsible for a few problems in females especially at later ages, such as breast cancer.

Does Tren not inhibit estro binding? So what are they saying, estro needs to be present or needs to bind?

Wrong. I think the details expounded by the wikipedia exerpt are taken out of context by some readers... the truth is that when it talks about Progesterone's activity on receptors and how it affects Estrogen, the ER, and vice-versa, it deals with receptors in all kinds of tissues in the body (namely, breast tissue) - not muscle tissue. Progesterone can increase the ER's affinity for Estrogen, which is why some will become more sensitive to gyno while using 19-nor compounds such as Trenbolone or Nandrolone. I honestly think this whole topic is both splitting hairs as well as being taken totally out of context.

[Knockout_Power]

Wrong. I think the details expounded by the wikipedia exerpt are taken out of context by some readers... the truth is that when it talks about Progesterone's activity on receptors and how it affects Estrogen, the ER, and vice-versa, it deals with receptors in all kinds of tissues in the body (namely, breast tissue) - not muscle tissue. Progesterone can increase the ER's affinity for Estrogen, which is why some will become more sensitive to gyno while using 19-nor compounds such as Trenbolone or Nandrolone. I honestly think this whole topic is both splitting hairs as well as being taken totally out of context.

could also be my lack of the scientific knowledge behind all of this... and the original thought is a bit vague as to what it being co-related.

Would be interesting to know though since I may pick up the Tren sometime this year

[Atomini]

could also be my lack of the scientific knowledge behind all of this... and the original thought is a bit vague as to what it being co-related.
Would be interesting to know though since I may pick up the Tren sometime this year

Exactly. The hypothesis being proposed here is so utterly vague, I can't possibly fathom an experiment like this going in any intended direction towards a significant increase in muscle growth. If this could be performed in a properly controlled double-blind placebo study, we could definitively see if it does or doesn't make a difference. But with the knowledge we have thus far about the Estrogen-Progesterone-ER interaction in the body, we can say with a high degree of certainty that it isn't going to make that much of a difference. And then there's the question of all of this happening in humans. Yes, Estrogen plays a role in anabolism. But it isn't so profound as to say that excessive Estrogen levels will then result in even more growth. It is simply a necessary component with everything else in place. And then we have this hypothesis trying to link excessive Estrogen with Trenbolone resulting in greater muscle growth, and Trenbolone being a progestin somehow working with Estrogen to increase anabolism to an unknown/unstated extent (even though we know that the interactions with Progesterone and Estrogen when referred to in literature always refer to breast tissue and select other tissue, not muscle tissue... all the while the health risks of excessive Estrogen (ON TOP of the use of one of the harshes AAS ever created) are overlooked. Sounds like a vague, ugly situation to me.

[Knockout_Power]

sooo, anyone have a good source for Birth Control pills?

[jimmyinkedup]

We cant even say with any certainty that tren does in fact act as a progestin. Binding affinity slightly greater than PG to the PGR does not does not equate to activity. There are MANY substances with higher binding affinities to receptors than endogenous hormones that do not exhibit the said effects of the hormone. Just look at nolvadex off the top of my head Also most studies that focus on PGR or PRL refer to up regulation in endometrial tissue - not breast tissue...which may very well be moot for males but potentially may explain sexual dysfunction. Its a pretty murky area and you can in no way talk in absolutes.
Regardless the idea of intentionally increasing estrogen makes absolutely no sense what so ever to me.

[Atomini]

We cant even say with any certainty that tren does in fact act as a progestin. Binding affinity slightly greater than PG to the PGR does not does not equate to activity. There are MANY substances with higher binding affinities to receptors than endogenous hormones that do not exhibit the said effects of the hormone. Just look at nolvadex off the top of my head Also most studies that focus on PGR or PRL refer to up regulation in endometrial tissue - not breast tissue...which may very well be moot for males but potentially may explain sexual dysfunction. Its a pretty murky area and you can in no way talk in absolutes.
Regardless the idea of intentionally increasing estrogen makes absolutely no sense what so ever to me.

You are VERY correct about that. I have been saying this for a very long time, actually. When we delve into the world of AAS, we know that when modifications are made to the chemical strucutres of hormones to create different and more powerful anabolic steroids with different attributes, we end up with compounds that are supposed to act a certain way (sharing properties with their parent/progenitor hormone) when they absolutely in real practicality show exactly the opposite! One such compound as an example is Anadrol. Anadrol is a DHT-derivative, which makes it highly androgenic and unable to convert into estrogen - yet it produces heavy estrogenic side effects without aromatization. Other strange anomalies that have been found with other AAS as well. Trenbolone is no different. Actually, it should be the poster child anabolic steroid for exhibitng anomalous effects. Nandrolone and Trenbolone are not Progesterone themselves – they are anabolic steroids that exhibit known/unknown Progestogenic activity due to their chemical modifications and it is therefore very possible for these hormones to exhibit activity that is contrary to the activity of a similar hormone or parent hormone.

[Java Man]

This is great stuff. This is my first go with tren. As with everything else I put in my body I am trying to find out all I can about its action in humans. Unfortunately due to it not being intended for human use, there are no clinical studies on it. In a perfect world I would set up a double-blind with a placebo control group but there are some roadblocks:

1. I'm not a professional scientist
2. I would go to.jail
3. I wouldn't be able to finance such a study

Those are the big 3 lol. There's many more but I think point made. The only other educational resource available to me then is forums such as this. Not exactly the kind of source material that can be taken at face value. Every person on the internet is beautiful, rich, possesses genius level intelligence and can win the worlds strongest competition if only they had the time or need to even be bothered with such trivial human pursuits.

I have been reading this forum for long enough to know who is and isn't full of sh!t I think. All I intended with the OP was to provoke a lively discussion. I've only started tren this week so I can still alter the plan as needed.

there are some glaring holes in my thinking that you all have pointed out. Castrated. For some reason I overlooked that. These bulls have no test, therefore no

[Java Man]

Ahh crap I think I made my point there's a lot more I didn't consider other than the fact that any exogenous hormones would need to be complete in these bulls IE introducing T would also necessitate introduction of E2 since there's no HTA present. My phone cuts off long posts at a point and I can't edit beyond that line.

Bottom line is that you guys made me reconsider. I'm going to stick to my original plan and control my E2. thanks for the comments, all who posted.

[Java Man]

What I am saying is you are taking enough Test that your levels SHOULD be 2000 but due to aromatization and your E2 goes above normal say 100 - 300 your testosterone levels will only be 900 (estimated). This is what I have seen when doing blood work. If my E2 is elevated then my test levels are lower than they should be so it's not doing it's job properly I believe. If you keep the E2 levels in check your Test levels will be higher.

OIC. Net T level.

@Atomini I'm a programmer. Splitting hairs is in my genetic code! Not to worry-this was a flawed thought process I'm not doing it. In the presence of estrogen means just that. Since I'm not castrated or 125 years old (no offense to anyone that old, and congrats!) I already have estrogen. There's nothing that I can find that says it has to be beyond a certain saturation point, just that it needs to be present.

[Java Man]

Hungry now

Of all points made, I have to say this one is the most profound! I'm hungry too!