Lyle McDonald / Martin Berkhan at each other's throats... Aragon caught in the middle

[gbrice75]

Not sure if any of you have them friended on FB and/or follow them on Twitter, but I do. I haven't payed attention in a while to be honest, but last night I saw a 'public' feud turn ugly. Not too long ago, Martin was planning to collaborate with Lyle on a book, now they hate each other. Did anybody else happen to catch this? The FB post was taken down shortly after it was posted, but I caught it. Crazy!!! The most brilliant minds in the sports nutrition/bodybuilding world are turning it into a WWE storyline!!

[951thompson]

Not sure if any of you have them friended on FB and/or follow them on Twitter, but I do. I haven't payed attention in a while to be honest, but last night I saw a 'public' feud turn ugly. Not too long ago, Martin was planning to collaborate with Lyle on a book, now they hate each other. Did anybody else happen to catch this? The FB post was taken down shortly after it was posted, but I caught it. Crazy!!! The most brilliant minds in the sports nutrition/bodybuilding world are turning it into a WWE storyline!!

Aww I can't miss this, im going to have to add them lol

In stuborn fat solution Lyle gave Martin a shout out, im gonna have to get in on this, I love abit of beef lol

[--->>405<<---]

Not sure if any of you have them friended on FB and/or follow them on Twitter, but I do. I haven't payed attention in a while to be honest, but last night I saw a 'public' feud turn ugly. Not too long ago, Martin was planning to collaborate with Lyle on a book, now they hate each other. Did anybody else happen to catch this? The FB post was taken down shortly after it was posted, but I caught it. Crazy!!! The most brilliant minds in the sports nutrition/bodybuilding world are turning it into a WWE storyline!!

very very interesting and i am glad to know they both are on FB.. what was the gist of the argument??

[gbrice75]

Aww I can't miss this, im going to have to add them lol

In stuborn fat solution Lyle gave Martin a shout out, im gonna have to get in on this, I love abit of beef lol

You probably won't get Lyle on FB, he hardly ever goes on anymore. Twitter is your better bet. Alan is rarely on either, but Martin is constantly posting.

Lyle seems VERY angry these days... not sure what's going on but he's been insulting Martin's posts, and Martin finally unfriended him. That apparently infuriated Lyle, who proceeded to rip Martin a new asshole... Martin ripped back into him, and then sent this email correspondence to Alan who is friends with both... poor guy is stuck in the middle lmao. Oddly enough, Martin proceeded to insult Alan for being "too diplomatic". I guess he wanted him to trash Lyle as well, but Alan's not going to bite (one of) the hand(s) that feeds him.

[gbrice75]

PS - when push comes to shove, I'm a Lyle guy. I like a lot of Martin's work, but IMO he can be very abrasive and tries to mix it up with the 'big boys', probably trying to make a bigger reputation for himself. I remember him doing the same shit with Layne Norton not too long ago.

I like Alan as well but as I've stated in the past, I think he's way off sometimes, and too much of a minimalist approach.

[rollingthunder]

i discovered lyle's books in 2010 and bought "rapid fat loss" and "guide to flexible dieting". good stuff. i used RFL principles to drop 40 pounds in 3 months. learned of martin berkhan through lyle's discussion forum. went to martin's website and read all about intermittent fasting (IF). incorporated some IF principles into my diet and exercise program. it seemed to have no discernible effect for me.

anyway, i seem to recall reading a comment on lyle's discussion forum recently about martin trying to "shoehorn" everything to fit his IF framework. my guess is that martin is a "true believer" regarding IF, whereas lyle is more of a "show me the research" guy, and that has led to their spat.

[951thompson]

PS - when push comes to shove, I'm a Lyle guy. I like a lot of Martin's work, but IMO he can be very abrasive and tries to mix it up with the 'big boys', probably trying to make a bigger reputation for himself. I remember him doing the same shit with Layne Norton not too long ago.

I like Alan as well but as I've stated in the past, I think he's way off sometimes, and too much of a minimalist approach.

There all geniuses in there own right lol whats Lyles add on Twitter can't find him, I've found martin, your right he is giving it some I love it.

[gbrice75]

i discovered lyle's books in 2010 and bought "rapid fat loss" and "guide to flexible dieting". good stuff. i used RFL principles to drop 40 pounds in 3 months. learned of martin berkhan through lyle's discussion forum. went to martin's website and read all about intermittent fasting (IF). incorporated some IF principles into my diet and exercise program. it seemed to have no discernible effect for me.

anyway, i seem to recall reading a comment on lyle's discussion forum recently about martin trying to "shoehorn" everything to fit his IF framework. my guess is that martin is a "true believer" regarding IF, whereas lyle is more of a "show me the research" guy, and that has led to their spat.

I think you're synopsis is spot on here bro. Martin would post something, Lyle would post a disparaging remark basically calling him out, and Martin eventually got pissed (maybe rightfully so). He said that's ok except when that's ALL Lyle does... uses those mediums for nothing other than to fling insults.

There all geniuses in there own right lol whats Lyles add on Twitter can't find him, I've found martin, your right he is giving it some I love it.

I'll have to check for you tonight... I generally stay off Twitter. I saw this all on FB.

[rollingthunder]

here is a post dated 3/21/2013 on lyle's discussion forum:

"Ok, I got a PM about the IF/Martin Berkhan/Leangains issue and want to clarify my stance.

I dislike that Martin has turned into the exact thing he used to rail against. In his mind IF is the ONLY ONE TRUE way and he spent a lot of time shoehorning very study and every data point into Leangains even when it didn't fit. When I pointed this out on his FB page he deleted them because it might cause the faithful to question the teachings. I have a problem with that.

I am in no way AGAINST IF'ING. Anymore than I am against most non-stupid approaches to diet or training. It has it's uses, works great for some and poorly for others. It is not magic and get over the fact that it is."

so thats lyle's perspective. (in his last sentence, i think he means "get over the fact that it is NOT.")

looking at martin's leangain's website, his most recent posts seem very defensive, and do not have much to do with IF itself.

[jimmyinkedup]

The funny thing is 10-20 years from now the thing all 3 of "the big 3" are fighting about will be obsolete and none of them will feel or believe the same things.
There can usually only be one big swinging dick and just about everyone want to be it so lets not kid ourselves or ignore that this is really all about ego, to varying degrees perhaps, but its ego driven.

[baseline_9]

Martins an amateur compared to Lyle.... And what has he actually brought to this industry.... Nothing.... He just re-posts study's to back up his IF approach.... IF being an approach that he promotes and did not create.....

I haven't seen this argument but I'd say that Martin needs to wind his neck back in if he is having a go at lyle.....

Lyle IMO is the best in the industry and has actually contributed to the community with an excellent website and multiple books....

Martin is just a PT who managed to go viral by promoting an approach that was the opposite to what people expect..... Obviously this is a great way to get recognised.....

[Sgt. Hartman]

^^^exactly. Lyle preaches sound fundamentals of nutrition and that different specific approaches work differently for everyone. IMO what he preaches will still be solid info years from now even though I'm sure advances will be made that will cause him to tweak his ideas but the underlying principles are sound.

Berkan promotes a fad type diet that he arrogantly insists is the best type of diet for everyone regardless of their specific situation or goals. It obviously works very well for some and I do agree with some of his underlying principles but his arrogant IF is the best suited diet for everyone type attitude drives me insane.

Can you tell I hate IF?

[baseline_9]

^^^exactly. Lyle preaches sound fundamentals of nutrition and that different specific approaches work differently for everyone. IMO what he preaches will still be solid info years from now even though I'm sure advances will be made that will cause him to tweak his ideas but the underlying principles are sound.

Berkan promotes a fad type diet that he arrogantly insists is the best type of diet for everyone regardless of their specific situation or goals. It obviously works very well for some and I do agree with some of his underlying principles but his arrogant IF is the best suited diet for everyone type attitude drives me insane.

Can you tell I hate IF?

Lol

I'm not against IF'ing.... I'm not against any type of dieting TBH.... My 'foundations' are set way deeper nowadays than your meal frequency or wether you eat whole/natural foods or processed foods etc.... I believe in basics that we know are right.... Like calories and macros....

But yeh, Martin is a bit of a bore, arrogant and is clearly only into IF as a way to promote himself and 'mix' with the 'big names'

I actually respect people like Ian McCarthy much more as he will give a very non biased opinion based on scientific data.... I understand that Martin also does this but he is very one sided in the data he posts...

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^exactly. Lyle preaches sound fundamentals of nutrition and that different specific approaches work differently for everyone.

You know as far as opinion on whom I respect more I agree with you and base and prob G as well. The point you made here is one I actually reconsidered after i posted my first post. It is a very good one.

[jimmyinkedup]

Lol

I'm not against IF'ing.... I'm not against any type of dieting TBH.... My 'foundations' are set way deeper nowadays than your meal frequency or wether you eat whole/natural foods or processed foods etc.... I believe in basics that we know are right.... Like calories and macros....

But yeh, Martin is a bit of a bore, arrogant and is clearly only into IF as a way to promote himself and 'mix' with the 'big names'

I actually respect people like Ian McCarthy much more as he will give a very non biased opinion based on scientific data.... I understand that Martin also does this but he is very one sided in the data he posts...

Isnt he a part of the nutrition roundtable discussions from Aragons blog? It was Aragon ,McCarthy and Brink if I recall correctly. If not that specific one I know he has participated.

[baseline_9]

You know as far as opinion on whom I respect more I agree with you and base and prob G as well. The point you made here is one I actually reconsidered after i posted my first post. It is a very good one.

Lyle always tends to give you both sides of the 'story' IMO....

Maybe his views are often 'down the middle' however if that is the truth then sobeit..... At least he doesn't take one side of the debate to the extreme just for recognition or a 'game changer' type move like Berkenhan is doing...

[baseline_9]

Isnt he a part of the nutrition roundtable discussions from Aragons blog? It was Aragon ,McCarthy and Brink if I recall correctly. If not that specific one I know he has participated.

Yep.... That's him

He has a YouTube channel and loads of people hate him because he 'doesn't look like a bodybuilder'..... So obviously the info he shares is nonsense because he doesn't look like a BB'er.... Lol people are morons.....

The best thing he ever said was that if he said something and it wasn't believed because he said it and he didn't look like a BB'er would the same statement said by jay cuter make it anymore true....

[951thompson]

Martin isnt actually a qualified nutritionist, he is just a knowledgeable guy who invented a website. He does know his apples though, but from reading and practicing both guys methods, if you look at the quality and attention to detail in there information, Lyle is on another level. I mean I don't even think Martin has one book out and his website is a mess. Lyle one the otherhand has a list of great books and his website and forum is great.

I've heard a rumor I read earlier on lyles forum,don't know what truth is to it, Lyle and martin were supposedly talking about doing a book together called leangains 2.0 and this may have had something to do with them falling out.

[--->>405<<---]

Lyle rules man..

[Sgt. Hartman]

You know as far as opinion on whom I respect more I agree with you and base and prob G as well. The point you made here is one I actually reconsidered after i posted my first post. It is a very good one.

You know when I very first started reading about nutrition and came across his site that's exactly what I didn't like about him. I thought he just straddled the fence. Someone would ask a specific question re their diet and goals and he'd respond well there's this variable and that variable and blah blah blah. Like most people I just wanted someone to tell me how and what I needed to eat. It'd be simple if everything were black and white and there was a single clear cut nutrition plan that worked best for everyone based on goals.

Now that's what I like about him though. He recognizes that we're all different and that everyone has to figure out what specific diet works best for them. And obviously it's not IF lol.

[lovbyts]

You guys actually read books and/or go to other sites for nutrition information? Seems to me there is enough information here alone and people who are knowledgeable to last me a long time.

Never heard of this lyle or Martin guy. I dont think I'm missing much.

[Sgt. Hartman]

Where do you think the wealth of nutrition information that gets posted in this forum comes from?

How do you think the guys here who are knowledgeable got that way? Guys like GB and stem have a ridiculous amount of knowledge regarding nutrition but I can pretty much assure you they weren't born that way.

[lovbyts]

Where do you think the wealth of nutrition information that gets posted in this forum comes from?

How do you think the guys here who are knowledgeable got that way? Guys like GB and stem have a ridiculous amount of knowledge regarding nutrition but I can pretty much assure you they weren't born that way.

LOL yeah I get that. I appreciate other people taking the time to actually read/study. I know a lot or at least some of the diet information is from personal experience. The only reading I do is via this site and a couple other forums for cars and such. I think it's my ADD but I HATE reading books.

[gbrice75]

Martins an amateur compared to Lyle.... And what has he actually brought to this industry.... Nothing.... He just re-posts study's to back up his IF approach.... IF being an approach that he promotes and did not create.....

Basically true, although I'll add that he did modify the fasting approach (nothing new) to be more 'bodybuilder' friendly, something that hasn't really been done (well) in the past to my knowledge.

I haven't seen this argument but I'd say that Martin needs to wind his neck back in if he is having a go at lyle.....

Lyle IMO is the best in the industry and has actually contributed to the community with an excellent website and multiple books....

Martin is just a PT who managed to go viral by promoting an approach that was the opposite to what people expect..... Obviously this is a great way to get recognised.....

Agreed for the most part. I can understand Martin's frustration if Lyle was in fact doing what Martin accused him of - having nothing to do with FB/Twitter other than to make 'drive-by' insults on his and other's posts. Having said that - if Martin had a solid refutal, he should have brought it to the table instead of deleting Lyle's (negative) comments. This is what set Lyle off and led to the FB unfriending... and then all of this.

^^^exactly. Lyle preaches sound fundamentals of nutrition and that different specific approaches work differently for everyone. IMO what he preaches will still be solid info years from now even though I'm sure advances will be made that will cause him to tweak his ideas but the underlying principles are sound.

Berkan promotes a fad type diet that he arrogantly insists is the best type of diet for everyone regardless of their specific situation or goals. It obviously works very well for some and I do agree with some of his underlying principles but his arrogant IF is the best suited diet for everyone type attitude drives me insane.

Can you tell I hate IF?

^^ THIS is the problem with Martin. I don't hate IF at all (I think that's obvious as I've been somewhat of an IF 'cheerleader' in the past) - BUT when Martin first got on people's radar, he was a lot more humble and didn't take this (arrogant) approach. He got some notoriety, particular with some big names (Lyle, Alan, Layne, etc) which fed his ego, and made him feel like he was on their level and could mouth off. Let's not forget he was sucking Lyle's d!ck a few years before.

IMO, Leangains is a good approach for some people but Martin needs to come back down to Earth and remember that before his Leangains, people were making gains/reducing bodyfat efficiently and effectively. Point being - there are many ways to skin a cat; find what works best for you and/or best suits your lifestyle.

I asked Nark what he thought about all this, and he said he didn't give a shit what these guys were feuding about, it didn't affect his life or knowledge in any way, etc. But I think he said it best:

"This is the perpetual bodybuilding paradigm: Every(intelligent)thing works (once aptly and consistently applied)"

IMO, truer words have never been spoken. Nark puts it very eloquently. I simply tell people "consistency is key".

Yep.... That's him

He has a YouTube channel and loads of people hate him because he 'doesn't look like a bodybuilder'..... So obviously the info he shares is nonsense because he doesn't look like a BB'er.... Lol people are morons.....

The best thing he ever said was that if he said something and it wasn't believed because he said it and he didn't look like a BB'er would the same statement said by jay cuter make it anymore true....

People are so fcking stupid. I guess Alan and Lyle look like 'bodybuilder's'? Hardly... yet they're considered 'guru's' (and rightfully so, particularly Lyle IMO). Ian McCarthy might look like he belongs in Revenge of the Nerds, but that little nerdy bastard knows his shit and is a name to be reckoned with!!

You know the saying - some of the best coaches can't play the game.... does that make their knowledge any less sound? HELL NO!

I've heard a rumor I read earlier on lyles forum,don't know what truth is to it, Lyle and martin were supposedly talking about doing a book together called leangains 2.0 and this may have had something to do with them falling out.

Pretty sure it was true. Lyle made reference to it in one of the hateful emails they had going back and forth... something to the effect of "How's that book coming along? Hahaha!" While that doesn't imply he had anything to do with a Martin book initially, he's obviously aware of one and likely was planning to collaborate a few years ago when they were tight.

Where do you think the wealth of nutrition information that gets posted in this forum comes from?

How do you think the guys here who are knowledgeable got that way? Guys like GB and stem have a ridiculous amount of knowledge regarding nutrition but I can pretty much assure you they weren't born that way.

Thanks for the compliment Sgt, and yes - it all comes down to having a thirst for knowledge and a passion for self improvement. Admittedly, I had the advantage of growing up with a PT mother (as I've said before, an old school, TRUE PT, not those dime-a-dozen PT's you find nowadays) and an amateur bodybuilder father. So it's somewhat in my blood...

[951thompson]

I've got nothing bad to say about martin, he's a smart very initiative guy. his protocol helped me shred alot of bodyfat, so I've got nothing but love for him, but his protocol could only take me so far. Lyles work is currently taking me to the next level.

Martin uses alot of Lyles methods in his protocol, carb cycling and what not, so I think leangains 2.0 would be a fitting name, should he bring out a book. I think he's missed his moment on bringing out a book though, he missed out on alot of bucks $$$ he practically gave the info away for free. Tho I guess it has made him a celebrity in the industry.

[evander87]

IMHO IFers are just as bad as Crossfitters. While both work they are not the end all be all of fitness. I'm for anything that gets fat people fit but there are a million ways to skin that cat. Find what works for you and stick to it.

[gbrice75]

IMHO IFers are just as bad as Crossfitters. While both work they are not the end all be all of fitness. I'm for anything that gets fat people fit but there are a million ways to skin that cat. Find what works for you and stick to it.

I wouldn't even limit it to just those 2 groups. It's anybody who thinks their way is the only way.

[jimmyinkedup]

I wouldn't even limit it to just those 2 groups. It's anybody who thinks their way is the only way.

Ties right in with Narks social media post. I dont wanna post for someone or anything but I wanna thank gbrice for sharing this with me and Nark for posting it. I think its worth sharing here. Its pretty damn spot on:

Here's a little-known-secret, that most people won't tell you: In the sphere of fitness, everything works. It doesn't matter if you're following 'If It Fits Your Macros' (IIFYM), Intermittent Fasting (IF), Carb-timed diets, UD 2.0, Paleo, Atkins... or what have you. What matters is that you pick ONE well-thought-out style of dieting, and you stick to it. It really is that simple. Nark

[gbrice75]

Ties right in with Narks social media post. I dont wanna post for someone or anything but I wanna thank gbrice for sharing this with me and Nark for posting it. I think its worth sharing here. Its pretty damn spot on:

Here's a little-known-secret, that most people won't tell you: In the sphere of fitness, everything works. It doesn't matter if you're following 'If It Fits Your Macros' (IIFYM), Intermittent Fasting (IF), Carb-timed diets, UD 2.0, Paleo, Atkins... or what have you. What matters is that you pick ONE well-thought-out style of dieting, and you stick to it. It really is that simple. Nark

Yep, seems he's been driving this point home lately. I quoted him saying something similar above, not sure if you saw it. Definitely spot on though. Took me YEARS to learn this, and actually implement it. I was your classic case of bouncing from 'plan' to plan, never really allowing the chance for any one of them to 'work'.

[jimmyinkedup]

Yep, seems he's been driving this point home lately. I quoted him saying something similar above, not sure if you saw it. Definitely spot on though. Took me YEARS to learn this, and actually implement it. I was your classic case of bouncing from 'plan' to plan, never really allowing the chance for any one of them to 'work'.

Ahh in my ego driven frenzy I saw none of those replies were to me (which kind of hurt my feelings to be honest) so I didnt read them. LOL j/k but I did somehow miss it !
Nark and I have disagreed in the past (mostly over supplements of all stupid things) but my respect for him and his knowledge has never wavered. Hell thanks to you Im now a FB follower !

[gbrice75]

Ahh in my ego driven frenzy I saw none of those replies were to me (which kind of hurt my feelings to be honest) so I didnt read them. LOL j/k but I did somehow miss it !

Lmfao!!! Nah man, you always have something substantial to add Jimmy... I'd never leave you hanging like that.

Nark and I have disagreed in the past (mostly over supplements of all stupid things) but my respect for him and his knowledge has never wavered. Hell thanks to you Im now a FB follower !

Yea, I remember you and Nark going at it on a few occasions. I actually just found a thread recently while I was bumping some of my older ones to get things moving in the nutrition section again. I opted to leave that one alone since it got a bit ugly at times.

Yea, I think you're following his Apollo FB page? You should just friend his 'real' profile, he posts a lot more from it, always something interesting - and some amazing fcking food. I call it porn.

[jimmyinkedup]

Yea, I think you're following his Apollo FB page? You should just friend his 'real' profile, he posts a lot more from it, always something interesting - and some amazing fcking food. I call it porn.

Ahh we will have to see if he accepts my request.

[gbrice75]

Ahh we will have to see if he accepts my request.

lol! He may not only because he won't know who you are... unless he see's me and Dukkit as mutual friends maybe.

[SEOINAGE]

I'm not a fan of Lyle. He's made ridiculous attacks for no good reason to friends I know personally on facebook, and it wasn't like Lyle had anything to do with it in the first place. Not to mention his information is one way of doing things, and imo not the only way, nor can be claimed the best, especially when people have differing goals.