Facts Do Not Matter

I said this in another thread, I enjoy talking about political and current event arguments...but there is one thing in the last few years that has become so out of control it makes discussions like that nearly impossible.

What I'm talking about is facts. No longer do facts matter. I can present one set of facts to back a point and I guarantee you 50 other people will come with their own opposing set of facts. Now we can all have differing opinions but there cannot be differing sets of facts.

The problem is everyone believes their own unique set of "Facts." If you present opposing information, even if it is 100% accurate in every possible way, you will be told by many it's a lie or that you're pushing a political agenda. People (countless) do this all the time if facts oppose their own desires and they will twist and contort facts to meet those desires.

How is it so much of society has begun to confuse opinion with fact? More importantly, is it impossible to change this? Have we reached a point to where our opinionated desires are so strong Facts will never matter again?

I know some will say there's nothing we can do about it. I hate that comment, it's one of the weakest comments any man can make.

Chime in if you have some thoughts on this.

This is interesting, yet considerably broad. In regards to politics, its a lot like a religious debate. Everyone can see the 'facts', but not everyone interprets them the same way. This inevitably leads to opposing arguments. Even in the event that both parties agree that the 'facts' listed are accurate without a doubt, they might differ as to whether they are justified results or not. In other words, just because it's a fact, doesn't make it 'OK' for both parties.

This will always be a never ending battle, otherwise networks would go out of business very quickly.

Very true, in the "information age" you dont know what info is true or not and when you do people "interpret" the exact same thing differently, who's right? or really the question becomes, who's MORE right?

I'm not feeling very philosophical right more. Maybe later.

Lack of critical thinking is nothing new. It is human nature to believe information that aligns with our beliefs and reflect info that doesn't. It is like ingrained ignorance.

I wish critical thinking and intellectual curiosity where taught, or at least encouraged, throughout the entire education process.

We could all do with a healthy dose of skepticism.

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Originally Posted by austinite

This is interesting, yet considerably broad. In regards to politics, its a lot like a religious debate. Everyone can see the 'facts', but not everyone interprets them the same way. This inevitably leads to opposing arguments. Even in the event that both parties agree that the 'facts' listed are accurate without a doubt, they might differ as to whether they are justified results or not. In other words, just because it's a fact, doesn't make it 'OK' for both parties.

This will always be a never ending battle, otherwise networks would go out of business very quickly.

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You're right, our opinions and desires can cause us to ignore facts or try to spin them in our favor. And even if we accept the facts, that doesn't mean we have to agree with a decision that's being made based on them. An example, the sky is blue, therefore we must all wear blue shirts. Obviously that would be an idiotic law to put in place, but you will find people who still refuse to admit the sky is blue just because they don't want to wear a blue shirt. And yes, I'm using a ridiculously simple example that would never happen, but hopefully that helps my point to be understood.

Here's another more realistic example. The unemployment rate is X%. We all know it's X% but if you like the guy in office many will deny it until they are blue in the face and they will say the opposing side is only stating this supposed fact because it harms their guy. It's insanity! There are no winners, only losers and this happens with every topic in the American society today and is one of the reasons we're a mess.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

Lack of critical thinking is nothing new. It is human nature to believe information that aligns with our beliefs and reflect info that doesn't. It is like ingrained ignorance.

I wish critical thinking and intellectual curiosity where taught, or at least encouraged, throughout the entire education process.

We could all do with a healthy dose of skepticism.

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"Ingrained Ignorance" good phrase.

Skepticism is good. One of my favorite quotes by Thomas Jefferson is "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." However, once we question something and then find the answer, the actual undeniable facts, this is where skepticism should end and reality sets in.

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Originally Posted by austinite

This is interesting, yet considerably broad. In regards to politics, its a lot like a religious debate. Everyone can see the 'facts', but not everyone interprets them the same way. This inevitably leads to opposing arguments. Even in the event that both parties agree that the 'facts' listed are accurate without a doubt, they might differ as to whether they are justified results or not. In other words, just because it's a fact, doesn't make it 'OK' for both parties.

This will always be a never ending battle, otherwise networks would go out of business very quickly.

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Thank you current media/news resources. They are politically driven and do not report facts anymore so what ever side you lean towards you/they tend to believe what they hear on TV/Radio and dont bother checking to see if any of it's true.

Unfortunately even if you do check most of the time you are directed towards a politically driven website that is also not reporting facts properly.

How many times has it been proven that one network or another get caught editing something to make it look one sided? The problem is nothing happens to them when they do get caught and people easily forget.

I will stick with my long time opinion. They are all (both sides) corrupt and after the same agenda. $$$

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Originally Posted by Metalject

I said this in another thread, I enjoy talking about political and current event arguments...but there is one thing in the last few years that has become so out of control it makes discussions like that nearly impossible.

What I'm talking about is facts. No longer do facts matter. I can present one set of facts to back a point and I guarantee you 50 other people will come with their own opposing set of facts. Now we can all have differing opinions but there cannot be differing sets of facts.

The problem is everyone believes their own unique set of "Facts." If you present opposing information, even if it is 100% accurate in every possible way, you will be told by many it's a lie or that you're pushing a political agenda. People (countless) do this all the time if facts oppose their own desires and they will twist and contort facts to meet those desires.

How is it so much of society has begun to confuse opinion with fact? More importantly, is it impossible to change this? Have we reached a point to where our opinionated desires are so strong Facts will never matter again?

I know some will say there's nothing we can do about it. I hate that comment, it's one of the weakest comments any man can make.

Chime in if you have some thoughts on this.

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There is a great deal of confusion regarding facts. Most of us use the term in an obtuse fashion, citing facts that really are not facts. Let me give you an example.

There is a great deal of misinformation out there who discovered American. Many will tell you it was Columbus. But the history books got it wrong. Others will tell you Leif Ericson (a famous Norweigen explore) "discovered" america 500 years earlier than Columbus. But this is wrong too. In fact, those asians that crossed the land bridge we now call the Bearing Straights that "connects" Russia to Alaska did so some ten thousand years ago. So the facts in the history books, at least the ones I read growing up, had it wrong.

Many will argue there is a God and state it in a factual manner. But this is wrong, isn't it? Since it is not verifiable, then it is an opinion, not a fact.

Others will argue that we all emanated from a Big Bang, but if C has been slowing down over time as some scientists are starting to piece together, then this is wrong too.

The reality is, a crowd of people can witness a crime, and when polled by the police, come up with differing sets of "facts".

People thought Newton had it all figured out. His laws of gravity and motion went undisputed for hundreds of years, until the early 1900's. We began to realize that Newton wasn't entirely correct.

There is always going to be some uncertainty when discussing facts. Heizenburg assures us of this.

We once said it was a fact that a baby can only come from a man and a woman. This is now false, due to cloning.

So anyone that claims to "know the facts", is either a fool or a liar. Truth is, no one can really be certain, without any doubt. We can only make assumptions until we can prove them false.

That's it.

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Originally Posted by Times Roman

We once said it was a fact that a baby can only come from a man and a woman. This is now false, due to cloning.

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Actually...... We're now trying to create life from 2 people of the same sex. They said it can be done and will be in the somewhat near future. They can alter the y chromosome in the male or the egg in the female to make it work.

Catch it on "through the wormhole - with Morgan Freeman" - it was an episode regarding whether or not we "need" sex

And you know what they say when you assume something. It makes an Ass out of U and Me. :)

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Originally Posted by Hazard

Actually...... We're now trying to create life from 2 people of the same sex. They said it can be done and will be in the somewhat near future. They can alter the y chromosome in the male or the egg in the female to make it work.

Catch it on "through the wormhole - with Morgan Freeman" - it was an episode regarding whether or not we "need" sex

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I need sex the same as I need water and food. :)
I once told the 2nd wife if it was not needing each-other (men and women) to procreate and there was not a mutual attraction for the most part that one of our species would be extinct by now.... lol

^ let's be real freaking clear....

....if it weren't for testosterone (and the men that carry it), our species would have died out, cuz cave women can be real nasty!

(ever watch planet of the apes?)

(testosterone ramps up libido)

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Originally Posted by Times Roman

^ let's be real freaking clear....

....if it weren't for testosterone (and the men that carry it), our species would have died out, cuz cave women can be real nasty!

(ever watch planet of the apes?)

(testosterone ramps up libido)

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I dont think they have changed all that much. ;)

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Originally Posted by Metalject

I said this in another thread, I enjoy talking about political and current event arguments...but there is one thing in the last few years that has become so out of control it makes discussions like that nearly impossible.

What I'm talking about is facts. No longer do facts matter. I can present one set of facts to back a point and I guarantee you 50 other people will come with their own opposing set of facts. Now we can all have differing opinions but there cannot be differing sets of facts.

The problem is everyone believes their own unique set of "Facts." If you present opposing information, even if it is 100% accurate in every possible way, you will be told by many it's a lie or that you're pushing a political agenda. People (countless) do this all the time if facts oppose their own desires and they will twist and contort facts to meet those desires.

How is it so much of society has begun to confuse opinion with fact? More importantly, is it impossible to change this? Have we reached a point to where our opinionated desires are so strong Facts will never matter again?

I know some will say there's nothing we can do about it. I hate that comment, it's one of the weakest comments any man can make.

Chime in if you have some thoughts on this.

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Do you know any of this for a "fact" lol?

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Originally Posted by lovbyts

I dont think they have changed all that much. ;)

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uh....

I have to disagree mate.

Personal hygiene for one. The oral contraceptive for two.

Sex is a recreational activity in modern times. We do things today unthinkable before...

If you were a cave fukker going down on a cave wench, how much enjoyment could there be if she hadn't "cleaned up down there" in a few weeks?

^^^ OK, OK I mean on the nasty as in being deceptive, manipulative and creative about killing their mates.

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Originally Posted by Times Roman

There is a great deal of confusion regarding facts. Most of us use the term in an obtuse fashion, citing facts that really are not facts. Let me give you an example.

There is a great deal of misinformation out there who discovered American. Many will tell you it was Columbus. But the history books got it wrong. Others will tell you Leif Ericson (a famous Norweigen explore) "discovered" america 500 years earlier than Columbus. But this is wrong too. In fact, those asians that crossed the land bridge we now call the Bearing Straights that "connects" Russia to Alaska did so some ten thousand years ago. So the facts in the history books, at least the ones I read growing up, had it wrong.

Many will argue there is a God and state it in a factual manner. But this is wrong, isn't it? Since it is not verifiable, then it is an opinion, not a fact.

Others will argue that we all emanated from a Big Bang, but if C has been slowing down over time as some scientists are starting to piece together, then this is wrong too.

The reality is, a crowd of people can witness a crime, and when polled by the police, come up with differing sets of "facts".

People thought Newton had it all figured out. His laws of gravity and motion went undisputed for hundreds of years, until the early 1900's. We began to realize that Newton wasn't entirely correct.

There is always going to be some uncertainty when discussing facts. Heizenburg assures us of this.

We once said it was a fact that a baby can only come from a man and a woman. This is now false, due to cloning.

So anyone that claims to "know the facts", is either a fool or a liar. Truth is, no one can really be certain, without any doubt. We can only make assumptions until we can prove them false.

That's it.

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You bring up some good points. However, I'll admit I was speaking in relation to political and economic facts primarily. These are things we can know and understand as facts if we choose to accept what's in front of us. For example, is the U.S. national debt increasing or not? There is a factual answer. Is it increasing faster or slower than previous years? Again, there is and will always be a factual answer. Employment rates, basic economic issues, and even what a political groups agenda is based on actions, these can all be understood in fact base forms. However, we choose to discuss such issues ignoring all facts to support our desires even when numbers do not and cannot lie.

But again, you do bring up some interesting points. Religion, not the topic of is there a God but how God is perceived is what I'm going to refer to in order to get back to my original point about facts. Christians believe in God, but you will hear a Christian say they don't believe certain things in the bible while another person does. Islam, the same can be said. Their are Muslims who will vehemently state the Quran does not in anyway promote violence, while other Muslims will say yes it does, and here's where it says it.

The point, varying religions believe different things within the same religion regardless of what their text says in order to fulfill their own desires or desired perception of God. For the sake of argument, pick any religion and let's say it is 100% right. If that's the case, shouldn't the individual who subscribes to that religion follow and believe what that religious doctrine says? Of course he should, he should not rest on his own desires. And here in lies the problem with facts. We are (not all but I'd say most) are so overwhelmed by what we want to be we cannot see facts (regardless of the subject) even if their staring us in the face.

Politically, I am 100% wholeheartedly convinced that an individual, left or right, could state as fact that a man is actually a woman and men are actually figments of our imagination if believing that was a fact could some how serve their desire.

Another thought...as men, we're never going to agree about everything. There will always be arguments surrounding the existence of God and how religious things should be approached. And there will always be disagreements when it comes to the varying desires we all have as one will want one thing and another man another thing and rarely can you have anything both ways. But when it comes to basic societal questions, how we're going to live as a nation, how we're going to govern ourselves and what direction we're going to go, we should have enough common sense to lay down desires and ask one question: Are we going to live with true freedom and self-reliance, or are we going to go the other direction? And when we look at this question, we should be able to look at basic simple facts that are in fact facts and come to a decision. I do believe most Americans fall into the freedom and self-reliance camp, and while there are left and right thinking people in that camp we should have enough sense to be able to come to common ground on basic principle issues. But currently we don't seem to have this ability. We're strangling ourselves. Our issues and conflicts are internally created and we have the ability to stop this, but we've yet to take that step. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's going to take a true disaster to reach this point.

I work in advertising. Facts are just the raw ingredients for spin. The crafted spin is all you will ever hear because the info is used as a narrative by whomever took the time, energy and money to put together the info for your consumption.

This is why a conservative and liberal economist will derive exact opposite stories from the same data set.

Fact: I wake up and drink coffee I poop.

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Originally Posted by DSM4Life

Fact: I wake up and drink coffee I poop.

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As do I. In that exact order. Every day.

Maybe that is a universal fact?

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Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

As do I. In that exact order. Every day.

Maybe that is a universal fact?

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*Sip......let me get back to you on that...

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Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

It is like ingrained ignorance.

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I like this !!

Hey I believe it..."I read this just the other day and that's what was written" ...huh
Oh,.......... Ooops I didn't know it was just someone's opinion. ....not so crazy mike

Although facts exist, this does not mean that they are always available to people or are simple and straightforward. Things can happen a world away, and some people claim that x happened, others claim that y happened, and then it comes down to who you are choosing as a reliable information source. In some cases, facts are available to some people, but not others (information asymmetry).

For example, on some occasions, I have tried to get information on incidents that occurred between palestinians and israelis in the middle east. Even after extensive reading, I found it was impossible to reliably determine who started an incident. Some websites insisted the israelis acted first, others insisted the palestinians acted first. There were obvious facts involved, as to who did what, when. But as far as I was concerned they were unknowable to me (in spite of other people insisting that their differing versions of reality were both factual).

To top it off, some people claimed that although the palestinians acted first on the day in question, the israelis *really* acted first, because of something they did a week ago. How does one reckon the confusion regarding the causality associated with the temporal nature of facts? Who do you say started some friction, when there is a multitude of events that have occurred over decades? And even if someone did plainly and factually "start" an incident forty or fifty years ago, does that mean that they are still factually responsible for something someone else does years later?

And this same confusion exists with regards to the economic figures that you mentioned. Clinton changed the way some economic indicators were calculated (unemployment, and the way loans against the social security trust fund were accounted for), so did the budget surplus that existed under his last budget factually exist? Or were they accounting sleight-of-hand? Yet people factually compare the budget deficits and "surplus" as though they were calculated in the same way. Both unemployment figures were "facts".

I guess I'm saying that while there is a simple notion of a 'fact', in reality I think a lot of "facts" are fairly slippery things, and I wonder if this is what fuels a lot of the debate in matters where facts seem to be at issue.

^ and on top of that, when MJ said that the national debt is increasing, there are ways of measuring this debt, ways of filtering this information that needs to be agreed on.

Is the debt growing in relation to GDP? Or is it shrinking?
How does one measure the debt? In present dollars, or do we adjust for inflation?

And by the way, how do we measure inflation? At one point, the housing index was included. Now it is not. Do we put the housing index back into the equation and then recalculate? Or do we leave it out? If we put the housing index back in, does that raise the possibility we have recently went through a period of deflation and didn't realize it?

My point is, how you arrived at a particular number can be just as important as the number itself. Statistics can be massaged to give you the result you are looking for.

again, I think this concept of "facts" of yours might be a little naive based on how you stated it.

I know your wrong for a fact.. :bbiwin: I never really thought about this tho, very true

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Originally Posted by Times Roman

^ and on top of that, when MJ said that the national debt is increasing, there are ways of measuring this debt, ways of filtering this information that needs to be agreed on.

Is the debt growing in relation to GDP? Or is it shrinking?
How does one measure the debt? In present dollars, or do we adjust for inflation?

And by the way, how do we measure inflation? At one point, the housing index was included. Now it is not. Do we put the housing index back into the equation and then recalculate? Or do we leave it out? If we put the housing index back in, does that raise the possibility we have recently went through a period of deflation and didn't realize it?

My point is, how you arrived at a particular number can be just as important as the number itself. Statistics can be massaged to give you the result you are looking for.

again, I think this concept of "facts" of yours might be a little naive based on how you stated it.

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Yes, I agree with all the things! You win all the prizes.