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Thread: The American Government shutdown

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    During our webinar last month, David Galland asked FOX Business reporter John Stossel about his recent book:

    "You write that, 'Where governments control health care, but want to limit the costs, everyone has to get in line.' ... and then you go on to say, 'Once you accept the idea that taxpayers should pay, then individual choice dies. Someone else decides what treatment you get, and when.' ...

    "It sounds to me like the end result [is] the government basically decides who lives and who dies. Could that really happen?"

    Stossel replied:

    "Sure. I imagine it already happens under Medicaid; they won't pay for every experimental treatment. And in some cases that means who gets it lives and somebody who doesn't dies. But when somebody else is going to pay, there is going to be a limit on that. And the question is: who's going to set the limit? If you pay, you get to set the limit. ... It should be an individual choice that you weigh based on the cost, but right now with no cost, nobody even thinks about it.

    "The people at FOX are fond of saying ... there's going to be this unelected committee of bureaucrats that's going to decide what you get, and they'll decide whether you live or die. ... Would elected bureaucrats deciding for you be any better? No. It's the idea that others will decide for us, and that's what happens when it's a third-party payment."

    That exchange jogged my memory back to an article Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet wrote in July: 10 Reasons Why Obamacare Is Going to Ruin Your Medical Care... and Your Life. Dr. Vliet is an acclaimed expert on the enigmatic law, and one of our featured speakers at this week's Casey Summit in Tucson. She wrote (all emphasis in original):

    "Higher expenditures to provide medical services lead to rationing of medical care and treatment options to reduce costs. This is the mandated function of the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB): to cut costs by deciding which types of medical services to allow... or disallow.

    "If you are denied treatment, you have no appeal of IPAB decisions; you are simply out of luck, and possibly out of life. This is a radical departure from the appeals process required for all private health insurance plans. Further, the IPAB is accountable only to President Obama, and cannot be overridden by Congress or the courts. IPAB is designed to have the final word on your health.

    "Under current regulations, if medical care is denied by Medicare, then a patient is not allowed to pay cash to a Medicare-contracted physician or hospital or other health professional. Patients who need medical care that is denied under Medicare or Medicaid will find themselves having to either: 1) look for an independent physician or hospital (quite rare these days); or 2) go outside the USA for treatment."
    Obama already said that is the way it will be.
    long version
    Obama to Jane Sturm take a pill (long version in context) - YouTube

    Short version.
    Obama to Jane Sturm: Hey, take a pill - YouTube

  2. #242
    I laugh at is some of you still pointing the finger or playing the blame game.

    Honestly get over yourselves and your political party.
    To sit her and preach about the Democrats this or Republicans that is comical.
    To believe you actually have a clue of what's really going on behind the doors in Washington is pure stupidity
    Listen you get your information from different media outlets.
    Which are bias towards different parties or pushing their own agendas . So whatever information they give is misconstrued to send out they message that they want you to hear.
    Not the truth and not necessarily a bold lie. But that Grey area in between.

    Come on people open your eyes it's all in front of your face.

    The United States Government is like that little child that wants something from his/her parents. The Child will ask one parent for the candy. And if that parents says no, the child will simply ask the other parent but in a different manor. So then when the first parent see's the child with the candy and asks how they got the the candy the child replies mom gave it to me.

    So now the parents start to argue about one parent undermining the authority of the other. Never to stop n realise the child simply used this as a means to get his candy.

    So while WE THE PEOPLE Democrats n Republicans ( Parents ) continue to fight n blame the other.
    The Government ( Child ) will continue to do as they please.
    Last edited by DB1982; 10-14-2013 at 04:57 PM.

  3. #243

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB1982 View Post
    Good video. I agree. Get the money out of politics.

  5. #245
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB1982 View Post
    Hell yeah man he got me fired up, he should have been a damn football coach I just wanna hit somebody now lol. Seriously thinks for posting, a lot of great points covered.

  7. #247
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    Great fvcking vid!
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

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  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB1982 View Post
    That man has a lot of passion. Only problem is I dont think this president will or wants to stand up and tell the public the truth. Agreed, both parties are to blame.

  9. #249
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    I wish they would outlaw any kind of ultimatums in the legislature...no tit for tat....pick an issue, deal with it, move on to the next victim.In the case of a vital issues, pack an overnight bag. Breaks and meals will be awarded based on progress.Deal with individual issues...no riders, addendums, or add-ons.
    If they don't like it, then they can no longer run. It seems there's too much emphasis on "supposed" party guidelines and too little concern for the constituency.

  10. #250
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    Lmao was just reading taxes still due tomorrow. Government shut down or not. Pay up baby! Doesn't matter where your from. Taxes stop for no one!

  11. #251
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    I remember that video from a few years ago. All we can hope for is that more and more people continue to start thinking like this. I sent that to my father who believes fox is the gospel.


    This one was better as its at least directed at a politician. Forward to 3:30 if you dont want to watch the whole thing

    Maria Bartiromo Destroys Senator Ben Cardin - YouTube


    Maria is ****ing hot. Probably a great lay

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovbyts

    That man has a lot of passion. Only problem is I dont think this president will or wants to stand up and tell the public the truth. Agreed, both parties are to blame.
    Hell no Obama won't. He gave more than half of his 47 biggest financial contributors a government job.
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

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  13. #253
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    So we can't pass a budget and we're possibly going to default...... Our government is "shut down" but they have the money to set up barricades and put officers on site at war memorials to prevent veterans from entering.

    Blows my mind
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

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  14. #254
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    Regarding obamacare....

    You can't goto the website and look at plans and their costs unless you sign up first. Blue cross and every other insurance company lets you view plans/benefits/costs prior to signing up. How come our government insurance won't let us?

    According to the director - "we don't want the prices to scare people away so we make them sign up first"

    Sounds like a great plan.....
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    So we can't pass a budget and we're possibly going to default...... Our government is "shut down" but they have the money to set up barricades and put officers on site at war memorials to prevent veterans from entering.

    Blows my mind
    Blows my mind too but does not surprise me, does it you?

    A lot of people here have seen the light with him and what he is doing and then there are those who just stopped defending him.

  16. #256
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    You serious about your war memorials being shut down? Now That pisses me off. Those belong to the people of the nation.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euroholic View Post
    You serious about your war memorials being shut down? Now That pisses me off. Those belong to the people of the nation.
    That and a lot more. They/he shut down most all state parks, monuments and anything to make it hard on the general public, places that have never been shut before all to show he can.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovbyts View Post
    That and a lot more. They/he shut down most all state parks, monuments and anything to make it hard on the general public, places that have never been shut before all to show he can.
    Its because you have that law were you can only be in twice so he knows he has nothing to loose.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    I wish they would outlaw any kind of ultimatums in the legislature...no tit for tat....pick an issue, deal with it, move on to the next victim.In the case of a vital issues, pack an overnight bag. Breaks and meals will be awarded based on progress.Deal with individual issues...no riders, addendums, or add-ons.
    If they don't like it, then they can no longer run. It seems there's too much emphasis on "supposed" party guidelines and too little concern for the constituency.
    That's the by-product of a vetocratic government, which is what the American Government currently is.

    Obamacare might not be universal healthcare Hazard but it's a step in the right direction.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flagg View Post

    That's the by-product of a vetocratic government, which is what the American Government currently is.

    Obamacare might not be universal healthcare Hazard but it's a step in the right direction.
    Not even close to a step in the right direction. It's a step right off a cliff. You can't see that?

  21. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flagg

    That's the by-product of a vetocratic government, which is what the American Government currently is.

    Obamacare might not be universal healthcare Hazard but it's a step in the right direction.
    It's not tho man.....

    Premiums for the already insured are increasing becoming more expensive. Lower income families are being forced to purchase healthcare. Lets say a single mom is living paycheck to paycheck. Doesn't qualify for subsidies..... And now the government is making her purchase the over $200/month bronze plan. Which mind you...... Has a high deductible. So if she needs surgery it's not like she walks outa the hospital without a bill.

    That's one example of many man. I'm not opposed to reforming healthcare. It needs to be done but it needs to be done RIGHT. Dumping 1 trillion dollars into an experiment isn't okay with me. This is another way for the government to make $$ off us.

    Also..... U cAnt get a price for individual coverage with obamacare until you already plug in all your information. No insurance company does that. Then when asked why that was.... They said they didn't want prices to scare people off. Tell me how that is "affordable"
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

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  22. #262
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    Well your Government is open again.

    Reading a lot of stuff from news outlets from prominent republican figures how they failed spectacularly on this.

    I'm not against the Republican Party, but how can some of you not see how crackers and hugely damaging the Tea Party is to the Republican party?

    Was it worth it?

    And Hazard perhaps if the insurance industry didn't scare people with words like socialism then it would be clearer to see that a tax funded healthcare system would be better than the current model that will be legalised.

    Now you have a system that will be subsidized to those that cannot afford the insurance policy being implemented.

    Edit: about 6 months ago it became mandatory to have a pension plan in the UK. It became mandatory for your employer to match what you put in. There were rumblings but most people accepted this as long term it's great idea. No offence but this would be the kind of thing where most Americans, if made to do this, would see this as the end of the world.
    Last edited by Flagg; 10-17-2013 at 05:55 PM.

  23. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flagg
    Well your Government is open again.

    Reading a lot of stuff from news outlets from prominent republican figures how they failed spectacularly on this.

    I'm not against the Republican Party, but how can some of you not see how crackers and hugely damaging the Tea Party is to the Republican party?

    Was it worth it?

    And Hazard perhaps if the insurance industry didn't scare people with words like socialism then it would be clearer to see that a tax funded healthcare system would be better than the current model that will be legalised.

    Now you have a system that will be subsidized to those that cannot afford the insurance policy being implemented.

    Edit: about 6 months ago it became mandatory to have a pension plan in the UK. It became mandatory for your employer to match what you put in. There were rumblings but most people accepted this as long term it's great idea. No offence but this would be the kind of thing where most Americans, if made to do this, would see this as the end of the world.
    A LOT of companies here offer pensions already. Some match what u put in...... Some put in without you contributing. I belonged to a hospital and built up 7 years of them putting into my pension. I left to take a better job at the age of 24 and they wouldn't give me my pension because I wasn't 25. Their rule was - 25 or 5 years of service whichever comes later.
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  24. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flagg View Post
    Well your Government is open again.

    Reading a lot of stuff from news outlets from prominent republican figures how they failed spectacularly on this.

    I'm not against the Republican Party, but how can some of you not see how crackers and hugely damaging the Tea Party is to the Republican party?

    Was it worth it?

    And Hazard perhaps if the insurance industry didn't scare people with words like socialism then it would be clearer to see that a tax funded healthcare system would be better than the current model that will be legalised.

    Now you have a system that will be subsidized to those that cannot afford the insurance policy being implemented.

    Edit: about 6 months ago it became mandatory to have a pension plan in the UK. It became mandatory for your employer to match what you put in. There were rumblings but most people accepted this as long term it's great idea. No offence but this would be the kind of thing where most Americans, if made to do this, would see this as the end of the world.
    Another suggestion of making someone pay for someone else. What dose this teach people?

  25. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fcastle357 View Post
    Not even close to a step in the right direction. It's a step right off a cliff. You can't see that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fcastle357 View Post
    Another suggestion of making someone pay for someone else. What dose this teach people?
    Fc, you seem to feel very strongly about this issue. what have you done or what can you do to make a change? to make things better? are you considering taking any actions? writing a petition? rallying up the neighborhood? starting a new political party?


  26. #266
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    I do feel strongly but it seems I'm just good at complaining. I support those in office who I feel share my beliefs. I live in a very liberal city of Wisconsin so that doesn't help. There's more I could do I suppose but I would be smeared in a second if I ever tried anything political. ( not exactly a clean record ) the U.S. is going through a change. I will never believe that someone should be forced to foot the bill for someone else. I believe in reform and treating people with respect. I believe you are given the chance to succeed. The rest is up to you. Pass or fail. No one should be guaranteed to win at the cost of others.

  27. #267
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    i thing that modern societies are made in such a way that the rich will always pay for the poor. the richer you are, the higher tax you pay. the poorer you are, the more "welfare" you tend to enjoy.

    but, the good news is the rich tend to get richer. but this can only happen if there are a lot of poor worker-bees in the society to support the rich and elite. so in a way, it all balance out. the rich needs the poor to survive, and vice versa.

  28. #268
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    I'm not a "political" person by nature. There's a lot of issues I'm not versed in so its not really my forté. Healthcare hits home for me because I've worked in it since 18 and I've been involved in it since I was very little "volunteer at the hospital" - I've been involved in many different facets of it. From billing and coding, to sales, to human resources, sterilization, and I've been involved in hundreds of surgeries of many different natures. I've made friends with doctors and made acquaintances with many many more. Over 250 contacts in my phone were personal cell phones of doctors. Healthcare was always a topic during surgery..... When Obama started talking about his reform the immediate responses were overwhelmingly negative. To this day Americas doctors don't want it. Not ONE that I worked with wants it or will be participating in it.

    That's why I get vocal with healthcare...... I'm all for reform just not the way it's being done.

    Also..... I'm not republican..... Not democrat. Our motto is "united we stand - divided we fall" but we have two major parties. I do my research on the candidates and their views as best as I can - then make a decision. I read through Obama false promises from day 1. I have nothing against him as a person or family man. He's just a perpetual liar. I mean that in the sense that its easier to break a promise to the American people than it is to a major corporation who gave you money.
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  29. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by AD
    i thing that modern societies are made in such a way that the rich will always pay for the poor. the richer you are, the higher tax you pay. the poorer you are, the more "welfare" you tend to enjoy.

    but, the good news is the rich tend to get richer. but this can only happen if there are a lot of poor worker-bees in the society to support the rich and elite. so in a way, it all balance out. the rich needs the poor to survive, and vice versa.
    Where's the middle class in all that? Lol
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  30. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by AD View Post
    i thing that modern societies are made in such a way that the rich will always pay for the poor. the richer you are, the higher tax you pay. the poorer you are, the more "welfare" you tend to enjoy.

    but, the good news is the rich tend to get richer. but this can only happen if there are a lot of poor worker-bees in the society to support the rich and elite. so in a way, it all balance out. the rich needs the poor to survive, and vice versa.
    I disagree. The rich are rich because they are successful and create jobs for someone else. If you start a business and become rich and successful that means you should give more of the money you earn to someone else? B.S!

  31. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post

    Where's the middle class in all that? Lol
    I was wondering that to.

  32. #272
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    lets say you start a company. you employ 100 staff. you pay them $100 each(arbitrary number). and you make a $1000 profit.

    now imagine the mindset of your staff. they are willing to collect $100 and work for you to generate your $1000 profit. why? cos $100 is a significant amount to them. thats why they are willing to get up every morning, leave their families, and come to the office.

    what happens when there are no poor people. nobody thinks that $100 is worth their time and effort. then your business will fail to exist. if there are no poor people, there can not be any rich folks too.

    of cos, middle class is in between, pay some tax, enjoy some wealth, neither here nor there.

  33. #273
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    Let me just redirect this for a second..... I appologize. Lets apply this to the doctors. If the government wants to limit what they can make - why would anyone want to become a doctor and not an engineer instead?

    The doc is the business owner..... The "poor" are his patients - tho I know not all are poor. He "needs" his patients to make money.

    All I'm saying is..... The doctor is a business owner. He owns his practice and has every right to charge what he feels is right for his skill and location. Look at plastic surgery in Beverly Hills compared to North Dakota. Different prices.....

    If we dictate to any business what they can make most would flip out. Lucky for the docs, and is probably the sole reason they havnt stepped infront of congress, is that they can opt out of accepting the governments insurance.
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

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  34. #274
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    Haz i think you're right. everybody in any sort of profession, is in it for the money. i'm not sure how the healthcare system is over there. do you only have elite doctors whose charges are astronomical or do you also have doctors who cater for the poor, charges are lower and yet reasonably competent?

  35. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by AD
    Haz i think you're right. everybody in any sort of profession, is in it for the money. i'm not sure how the healthcare system is over there. do you only have elite doctors whose charges are astronomical or do you also have doctors who cater for the poor, charges are lower and yet reasonably competent?
    No there are cheaper doctors. The problem isn't with the docs tho. The problem lies within the relationship between the care facilities (hosp/surgery centers) and the insurance companies.

    The insurance is a business..... So they want to take money from people and pay out as little as possible. The hospital is also a business..... Even I it's non profit it still needs to covers its costs. So they will charge out as much as they can to make the most money. Here in lies the problem......

    Since insurance doesn't want to pay the full amount for one Tylenol pill - the hospital charges the insurance $3 for a single pill. Then insurance pays out $1 per pill. So over time the hospital starts charging $6 per pill and insurance pays out $1.50-$2.00. And it just keeps going on and on. Now apply this to medical devices in excess of $10000. Who ends up losing? The insured/the patient. If there's a balance..... You owe it. If you havnt met your deductible .... You owe it. Then you receive bills from the doctor himself and the anesthesiologist because insurance won't cover 100% of that.

    Now if you don't have insurance..... There are outlets here to get care. It's a national law that you can not be denied treatment..... Even if you are unable to pay. A lot of people don't know this tho
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  36. #276
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    i think one fundamental problem is everyone is so used to being super rich and status quo that any changes will meet strong opposition.

    -flood the "market" with doctors. with oversupply, charges might become competitive.

    - flood the "market" with govt-managed low profit hospitals. this will cos tax money.

    - flood the insurance market with cheaper alternatives, govt to take over the insurance business and make it low to no profit. which is what the president is trying to do. maybe failing.

    really, there is no good way to make a change. no matter what you do, someone will be unhappy.

  37. #277
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    The government isnt doing this to help us..... Mark my words man. It's a way to generate money.

    He introduce "obamacare" aka the "Afordable Care Act" - how can u call it that when the government offered insurance is just as expensive or more expensive than private insurance? But now we are REQUIRED to purchase it..... If we don't..... We get taxed. Who gets that tax $$? The government. All the while..... Those who were able to afford private insurance are now seeing increases to their premiums and certain care is being cut from their plans.

    If you want to make insurance affordable..... Open it nation wide. Currently we can only purchase insurance in the state we reside. Make it more competitive.

    My grandmother is on a fixed income. She's retired and lives with my grandfather who is also retired. They're pushing 80 years old and really have to budget. Their Medicare plans just rose by $100 each. They're pissed..... And for good reason.
    Last edited by Hazard; 10-17-2013 at 10:40 PM.
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

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  38. #278
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    The problem is our government. It sucks to say it..... But everything they touch turns to "ca ca" as my daughter would say. The fvck EVERYTHING up..... But we are handing them an issue with this importance.
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
    - Knockout_Power

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  39. #279
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    This Obama/healthcare digression is interesting. I've never really wondered why we have Obamacare in the first place and why not instead truly socialized medicine, but this conversation got me thinking about this. It seems like the latter would make much more sense if we are trying to wrap our arms around rising healthcare costs.

    I'm not quite sure what Obamacare solves or why it even exists. Getting rid of pre-existing conditions is nice, but I think most people who can't afford insurance now are going to be surprised at how much it will cost them to get the care they want that they will go back to walking into ERs and not paying their bills instead (i.e. back to square one).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    The problem is our government. It sucks to say it.....
    Nah, I think every government around the world is criticized by its people. It's a fairly accepted notion that government borks everything to hell and is highly inefficient. The reason it needs to be, however, is that the opposite (too much "less government") is very destructive to an economy and its people. There needs to be a fine balance.

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