Real dillema

[Lunk1]

I can't give too much away here but I have a dilemma and could use some constructive advice (and yet I turn here lol).

Hypothetical situation , you are in a management position that's responsibility includes hiring and firing. It has been brought to your attention by staff that one of your upper management team has a large amount of "discrepancies" on their time card. You investigate back approx. 14 months and find "discrepancies" in the employees favor that range from 0-8 hours per month for an average of over 30 hours in the 14 months investigated.

Your experience with the supervisor is that he has never been very bright and is known for poor records keeping. The employee in question is a long term employee that has reached retirement age yet do to poor financial planning and current economics, can not afford to retire. You are unable to prove that the discrepancies were intentional.

Do you:
A. Ask for their resignation
B. Fire them
C. Demote them
D. Other

Feel free to ask any follow up questions.

[Hazard]

I asked my partner this too..... Lol. We both agree...... Demote him. If he has a history of poor records keeping than he can take a demotion. If not then pressure him to retire.

[lovbyts]

I can't give too much away here but I have a dilemma and could use some constructive advice (and yet I turn here lol).
You saw me coming a mile away.
Hypothetical situation , you are in a management position that's responsibility includes hiring and firing. It has been brought to your attention by staff that one of your upper management team has a large amount of "discrepancies" on their time card. You investigate back approx. 14 months and find "discrepancies" in the employees favor that range from 0-8 hours per month for an average of over 30 hours in the 14 months investigated.

Your experience with the supervisor is that he has never been very bright and is known for poor records keeping. The employee in question is a long term employee that has reached retirement age yet do to poor financial planning and current economics, can not afford to retire. You are unable to prove that the discrepancies were intentional.

Do you:
A. Ask for their resignation
B. Fire them
C. Demote them
D. Other

Feel free to ask any follow up questions.

Consult with HR since the employee asked you to investigate and if you do nothing it could be your head on the chopping block.

[diesel101]

First of all him being close to retirement and broke should have absolutely no influence on your decision.

If it were my employee I would demote him for the fact he isn't doing his job effectively and give him written warning for the time discrepancies. In the future I would closely monitor his time and if the discrepancies kept happening I would terminate his employment.

[JAB1]

I run a large company. I would of course consult HR. But the decision I would make is give him two options. First explain he can be terminated and for fraud and theft. Then give him the option to voluntarily resign. Best case he resign as that gets you of the hook for anything he wants to fight later, unemployment, wrongful termination, etc. If he does not resign You are still in a good position to terminate because most companies have a zero tolerance for manipulating payroll records(theft). Never fun to be in your situation, Ive been there. But he needs to go, whether he is intentionally stealing from the business or not, he is costing you money and that doesnt fly!!

[RaginCajun]

I look at it from a biz prospective.

If he was/is my employee, then I look at it as if he was/is stealing my money. I would have to first prove that he did not work those hours that he reported, and if proved, then he would be suspended for at least two weeks with out pay to think about it. If he cannot get the paperwork right, is a good employee, then after the two week suspension, I would try to find a position suitable for his needs.

[Capebuffalo]

Can you define dellima?

Sorry. Giving you a hard time on spelling.

As said before, unless you are HR you have to turn it over to them to handle. They are their for your and the others protection and if needed disciplinary actions.

[Lunk1]

No such thing as HR for us.

[JAB1]

I look at it from a biz prospective.

If he was/is my employee, then I look at it as if he was/is stealing my money. I would have to first prove that he did not work those hours that he reported, and if proved, then he would be suspended for at least two weeks with out pay to think about it. If he cannot get the paperwork right, is a good employee, then after the two week suspension, I would try to find a position suitable for his needs.

Good point on the suspension. I always suspend for atleast 3 days "pending investigation" if its any situation that needs to be looked into for fact checking.

[Capebuffalo]

No such thing as HR for us.

Union rep?

[probuild42]

No such thing as HR for us.

Welcome to my world!

Put the supervisor and employee on probation for 90 days with written notice as both have done something wrong. Ask the supervisor/employee to provide a plan or system to prevent such mistakes from reoccurring. Schedule a follow up meeting at 30, 60 and 90 days to track improvement or non-compliance. If they fail to improve ask for resignation.

In this way the supervisor/employee will be held accountable for their own actions.

[Lunk1]

Decision made. Demotion w/short unpaid suspension. Thanks for the advice fellas...even you Luv

[David LoPan]

Welcome to my world!

Put the supervisor and employee on probation for 90 days with written notice as both have done something wrong. Ask the supervisor/employee to provide a plan or system to prevent such mistakes from reoccurring. Schedule a follow up meeting at 30, 60 and 90 days to track improvement or non-compliance. If they fail to improve ask for resignation.

In this way the supervisor/employee will be held accountable for their own actions.

I like this. 30 hours over 18 months is not that bad? Could it have been not taking breaks, no lunch? Let him explain first. You can always make him make up that time or take it out of his vacation time. Then talk to him about integrity and keeping accurate time records. But as you say, he is not really good at it. Have a talk, give him the befit of the doubt and put him on probation. You would probably get better results out of him/her by doing it this way. If you demote him he might become a bad employee and start stealing from you and find a new job and you have to train someone else.

[probuild42]

Decision made. Demotion w/short unpaid suspension. Thanks for the advice fellas...even you Luv

The Axeman cometh!! haha

[Lunk1]

[QUOTE=BigTahl;6844429]I like this. 30 hours over 18 months is not that bad? Could it have been not taking breaks, no lunch? Let him explain first. You can always make him make up that time or take it out of his vacation time. Then talk to him about integrity and keeping accurate time records. But as you say, he is not really good at it. Have a talk, give him the befit of the doubt and put him on probation. You would probably get better results out of him/her by doing it this way. If you demote him he might become a bad employee and start stealing from you and find a new job and you have to train someone else.[/QUOTE

The problem is that he is a supervisor and the issue was raised by one of his subordinates. It's impossible to determine if there was intent and if action isn't taken then a bad message is sent to staff.

[David LoPan]

Hmm tough call. Was the subordinate up happy with the supervisor? Other than the 30 hours is he a good supervisor and employee? Tough choice anyway you look at it. I would talk with him first and then decide what you are going to do. Make him sweat it out a bit or have a staff meeting and state that it has been brought to your attention that some people are fudging their time cards, if they come forward now and speak with you they will not lose their job, but an audit is underway so they better get in front of it or else . . . and see if more than one person comes forward.

[Lunk1]

Hmm tough call. Was the subordinate up happy with the supervisor? Other than the 30 hours is he a good supervisor and employee? Tough choice anyway you look at it. I would talk with him first and then decide what you are going to do. Make him sweat it out a bit or have a staff meeting and state that it has been brought to your attention that some people are fudging their time cards, if they come forward now and speak with you they will not lose their job, but an audit is underway so they better get in front of it or else . . . and see if more than one person comes forward.

No, he has had several disciplinary actions over the last few years since a divorce. His subordinates have lost faith in his leadership. He was aware of the audit being conducted on his time cards.

I made an effort to save his career and not put him out on his ass. He still has a job but it's his to lose at this point.

[noon]

Two men enter one man leaves.

Pin the subordinate against the supervisor in UN armed combat.

[David LoPan]

No, he has had several disciplinary actions over the last few years since a divorce. His subordinates have lost faith in his leadership. He was aware of the audit being conducted on his time cards.

I made an effort to save his career and not put him out on his ass. He still has a job but it's his to lose at this point.

Sounds like you have thought about this enough. Time for the conversation. Good luck

[Lunk1]

Two men enter one man leaves.

Pin the subordinate against the supervisor in UN armed combat.

BAHAHA! I would love to as the subordinate is a pot stirring ass and the supervisor is a monster of a guy lol.

[Lunk1]

Sounds like you have thought about this enough. Time for the conversation. Good luck

Done deal already. We will see if it was the right decision now.

[AD]

i also feel that 30hrs in a 14month period sounds a little trivial. 2 hrs a month! i think a verbal warning and closer supervision is enough. i know its good to be firm and fair, but its also good to be somewhat understanding and compassionate.

[Lunk1]

i also feel that 30hrs in a 14month period sounds a little trivial. 2 hrs a month! i think a verbal warning and closer supervision is enough. i know its good to be firm and fair, but its also good to be somewhat understanding and compassionate.

While 30 hours in 14 months doesn't seem like a lot. Some months were 6-8 hours and some days were as much as 4.5-6 hours per shift. The problem again also stems from a "where do you draw the line" situation when other staff is well aware of the routine "discrepancies". As I mentioned before, there have been several verbal disciplinary actions taken over the last few years as well.

I thought the decision was EXTREMELY compassionate considering my boss wanted me to ask for his resignation or dismiss him immediately.

[lovbyts]

Good call and sounds fair. You are right, it's up to him now on what path to take.

[austinite]

Smack yourself in the mouth for not having a solid system that prevents such amateur mistakes. That being said, Compassion can put you out of business. No room for that.

[AD]

I usually give my staff 1-2 hrs every month of extra pay as tip.

[lovbyts]

I usually give my staff 1-2 hrs every month of extra pay as tip.

Only problem is far to many people will complain or stop/reduce production if you ever have to stop doing that. It's sort of like if you give a street beggar a dollar every day when you pass him for 2 weeks he will say thank you, but the one time you don't give him a dollar he will say, HEY, where is my dollar? They learn to expect it and not really appreciate it.

I think bonuses based on performance is a good option or just pay someone what is agreed on and leave it at that.

[diesel101]

I agree Lovbyts all of my employee bonuses are based on performance except for Christmas bonus that is based on how many years they have worked for the company(And yes I still give a Christmas bonus each year I know its old school but some of them sure appreciate it).

[Hazard]

My last company took our Christmas bonus money and used it as a signing bonus to hire a hatchet man. He fired 1/3 of the staff

[Honkey_Kong]

You should just talk to payroll and have him removed from the system. That way he wont be receiving a paycheque. The problem's solved on your end.

[Lunk1]

The rules change a bit when its private company vs govt. You cant just "give" tax payer money. At the same time, it allows for more compassion considering it's not a profit based company.

[lovbyts]

You should just talk to payroll and have him removed from the system. That way he wont be receiving a paycheque. The problem's solved on your end.

Dont take my Swingline Stapler

Office Space. lol

[diesel101]

Nice Job Lunk way to wreck the guys life I hope you are proud of yourself all he wanted to do was make it to retirement with a little dignity and here you come to wreck it all. You should have handled it a lot different.

[David LoPan]

My last company took our Christmas bonus money and used it as a signing bonus to hire a hatchet man. He fired 1/3 of the staff

Was it the Miks's from Office Space?

[Honkey_Kong]

Dont take my Swingline Stapler

Office Space. lol

Yeahhhhhh, I'm gonna have to go and sort of disagree with you there. Yeahhhh.

[Lunk1]

Nice Job Lunk way to wreck the guys life I hope you are proud of yourself all he wanted to do was make it to retirement with a little dignity and here you come to wreck it all. You should have handled it a lot different.

HA HA! I saved his bacon (pun intended).

[AD]

HA HA! I saved his bacon (pun intended).

so what did you do in the end?

[Lunk1]

so what did you do in the end?

Post# 12. Demotion and few days of unpaid suspension.

[AD]

Post# 12. Demotion and few days of unpaid suspension.

well done. at least he still has a job.