Officer Shoots Handcuffed Prisoner, Justification That Prisoner is a BODYBUILDER(VID)

[thegodfather]

An El Paso Officer shoots a handcuffed prisoner, and a Grand Jury declines to indict him, acquits him of wrong doing. A group which defends officers justifies the shooting by saying the handcuffed prisoner was a bodybuilder and very agile, and that he was able to 'front' his handcuffs, turning them into a deadly weapon. Additionally, they say he drew his weapon, and when the jail guards hand flew off the prisoner and hit his weapon, he discharged it, firing one fatal shot into the prisoner. Not only were neither the officer nor the guards life in danger, the fact that the guards hand hitting the weapon caused a discharge only means that he either negligently discharged his weapon but not indexing the trigger, or he actually intended to shoot the prisoner because his finger was on the trigger and not indexed, and shot him despite his life not being in danger. You can't have it both ways, but it seems that's the defense they're arguing. The video is disturbing to say the least, and there are numerous examples of protocols not being followed, principally, that the officer even had his weapon inside of a jail. Watch and judge for yourself, would like to get Lunks opinion and any of our members in LE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-le-zoiETM

Shooting at 1:42...

City releases video of fatal police shooting of El Paso bodybuilder Daniel Saenz - El Paso Times

El Paso Times article -

An El Paso police officer pulled his Taser stun gun after he drew his handgun and fatally shot a handcuffed prisoner at the Downtown Jail last year, according to security camera footage released Monday by the city of El Paso.

The video of the March 8, 2013, shooting death of bodybuilder Daniel Saenz was released after the Texas Attorney General's Office ordered the city to comply with an open-records request made by the El Paso Times in February. The video was requested after a grand jury declined to indict Officer Jose Flores in the shooting.

Jim Jopling, a lawyer with the Combined Law Enforcement Associations of Texas (CLEAT) representing Flores, said in a statement that the group believes the grand jury cleared Flores because of "the totality of the circumstances, which include the long sequence of events that came before the shooting itself."

Saenz, 37, had been arrested that day on assault charges after allegedly attacking an off-duty police officer and staff at Del Sol Medical Center, where he had been taken after he was found exhibiting bizarre behavior at an Alberstons supermarket on Yarbrough Drive.

The jail video released Monday starts with Saenz shirtless, handcuffed behind his back and sliding sitting on the floor as he is dragged by Flores and an unnamed prisoner transport guard.

Police officials had said that Saenz was being taken from the jail to a hospital. Jail staff had refused to accept Saenz because when he was being walked into the jail he "struck his own head into the doorway causing himself injury," according to a previously released Custodial Death Report. In the video, there appears to be blood on Saenz's face.

Once Saenz is dragged outside, the officer and guard appear to talk to him as he sits on the sidewalk outside the jail's back entrance.

The scene was filmed by cameras at different angles. There is no one else seen outside.

In the video, Saenz begins to struggle with the officers after they stand him up. Saenz falls to the ground but keeps trying to get up with the two men on top of him.

Saenz kicks, tries turning around and twists, grabbing at Flores who is behind him.

Saenz, according to CLEAT, was also trying to slam his head on the ground and the guard was trying to stop him.

In the video, the guard is attempting to hold Saenz by the shoulders when Flores gets up. At first, Flores appears to reach for the Taser in his left holster.

When Saenz pushes off the guard, Flores draws his Glock semi-automatic handgun from his right holster. The guard moves away and Flores fires a single gunshot.

Flores then holsters his gun, pulls his yellow Taser and gets atop of Saenz, who is face down, bleeding from a shoulder and continues to kick for a few seconds until he stops moving as blood spreads on the ground.

Saenz is eventually turned over. Flores begins CPR before the arrival of paramedics and an ambulance that takes Saenz to a hospital.

Saenz died at the hospital. An autopsy found that the bullet traveled from Saenz's shoulder and into his chest.

In this picture from a security camera at the Downtown Jail shows the muzzle flash in the fatal shooting of Daniel Saenz by El Paso police Officer Jose
In this picture from a security camera at the Downtown Jail shows the muzzle flash in the fatal shooting of Daniel Saenz by El Paso police Officer Jose Flores on March 8, 2013.
"The video does not show an important event that happened earlier in the day," Jopling said in the CLEAT statement. "When Mr. Saenz was in his holding cell at the Pebble Hills Regional Command Center, he was observed moving his cuffed hands from behind his body to the front of his body. This is called 'fronting' his cuffs. Mr. Saenz, who was in bare feet, put his shoes on and, when finished, moved his handcuffs back behind his body. Mr. Saenz did this with great agility and speed.

"In the video, Officer Flores first reaches for his Taser. However, he decides not to deploy his Taser because he knew that Mr. Saenz — also earlier that same day — had undergone five cycles of the Taser device, without effect. He had been Tased earlier in the day after he assaulted a police officer and other people at the hospital where he was being evaluated."

CLEAT stated that Flores drew his handgun because "Saenz could quickly front his cuffs and turn them into a deadly weapon, given his considerable strength, agility and demonstrated resistance to the Taser ... At the same moment Officer Flores draws his weapon, Mr. Saenz pushes off on that curb and, with remarkable strength, sends the civilian escort flying backwards. The civilian escort's arm then hits the trigger hand of Officer Flores, causing his weapon to discharge."

Saenz was a competitive bodybuilder and trainer known at gyms across El Paso. An autopsy report said he was 5 feet, 8 inches tall and weighed 217 pounds. The autopsy did not find cocaine, PCP or other hard drugs in his system but reported that Saenz tested positive dimethylamylamine, or DMAA, a substance found in both workout supplements and bath salts — synthetic stimulants that can cause paranoia, panic attacks and impaired perception of reality.

The struggle and shooting occurred in less than two minutes. The video also contains hours of scenes following the shooting, taken from different angles.

Last year, the state attorney general denied the first request by the Times to make the video public after city lawyers argued that the case was still under investigation.

With the conclusion of the criminal investigation by the Texas Rangers and El Paso Police Department, city attorneys in March argued that the video should be withheld for several other reasons, including the right to privacy of the deceased, a potential lawsuit against the city by Saenz's family and that releasing the video could endanger the life of the officer involved in the shooting.

The attorney general's office in a letter said that the city's reasons had been rejected.

It explained that the right to privacy is personal and lapses upon death.

"Upon review of your arguments, we find the department has failed to demonstrate release of the responsive recordings would endanger the life or physical safety of a peace officer," the attorney general's office stated in a letter to Assistant City Attorney Daniel Ortiz.

In March, Police Chief Greg Allen said there was an administrative investigation into Flores's actions. The result of the internal investigation and Flores's current status in the police department were not immediately available Monday evening.

Flores was the El Paso police officer who received national attention in January 2013 after buying a pair of boots and a package of socks for a homeless man outside the Lowe's Home Improvement store at 12100 Montana.

The story was broadcast across the country after it was initially reported by Channel 14-KFOX.

Daniel Borunda may be reached at 546-6102.

[kronik420]

only in america..

[jay94]

Things like this make me ****ing depressed... **** this shitty society full of ignorant people that we live in.

[lovbyts]

"The autopsy did not find cocaine, PCP or other hard drugs in his system but reported that Saenz tested positive dimethylamylamine, or DMAA, a substance found in both workout supplements and bath salts — synthetic stimulants that can cause paranoia, panic attacks and impaired perception of reality."

Well thats not good. Same stuff the guy in Florida was on when he ate the other guys face. I'm not passing judgment without seeing the video. It sounds like if the guy had cooperated things would have gone a lot differently and he would not be there in the 1st place so ???

[thegodfather]

"The autopsy did not find cocaine, PCP or other hard drugs in his system but reported that Saenz tested positive dimethylamylamine, or DMAA, a substance found in both workout supplements and bath salts — synthetic stimulants that can cause paranoia, panic attacks and impaired perception of reality."

Well thats not good. Same stuff the guy in Florida was on when he ate the other guys face. I'm not passing judgment without seeing the video. It sounds like if the guy had cooperated things would have gone a lot differently and he would not be there in the 1st place so ???

Kind of why its imperative you watch the posted video, no amount of my describing it will really illustrate the blatant unnecessary use of deadly force. Additionally, in the United States, we don't allow our police to use deadly force simply for not cooperating, especially with a handcuffed prisoner in a facility teaming with law enforcement personnel (i.e.- backup).

[lovbyts]

Somehow I missed the video link the 1st time.

It's curios they took him outside where no one else was around instead of waiting inside for one.
Yeah he got out of hand but I didnt see at any time he was a real threat and defiantly no need to shoot him.
If it was not for videos such as this and all the social media videos I think things would be 10x worse than they are but it's as bad as it can be when it's a loved one of yours who is the victim and laying in a morgue somewhere.

Yes it's very well known that it has to be a very extreme situation for a police officer to be charged with a crime let alone even reprimand or given time off without pay.

[Cuz]

Hope those cops rot in hell

[kelkel]

I'm irritated that they call him a bodybuilder. Christ, anyone who lifts a weight is suddenly a bodybuilder.

Now, back on topic....

[jimmyinkedup]

I'm irritated that they call him a bodybuilder. Christ, anyone who lifts a weight is suddenly a bodybuilder.

Now, back on topic....

That IS on topic. Like there is some stigma with the fact that he is a bodybuilder that might justify such a reaction. I guess if you are donut eating coffee drinking slob maybe someone in good condition is a threat. Then again maybe ..well forget it..I agree...it annoyed me too...

[Rwy]

Kind of why its imperative you watch the posted video, no amount of my describing it will really illustrate the blatant unnecessary use of deadly force. Additionally, in the United States, we don't allow our police to use deadly force simply for not cooperating, especially with a handcuffed prisoner in a facility teaming with law enforcement personnel (i.e.- backup).

Wow, he was so nonchalant about shooting him.

[Rwy]

Body builders on steroids can break handcuffs? Which is ridiculous but to the average fool on the street who knows.....

[bass]

so cops use taser guns on none cuffed suspects and fire arms on handcuffed prisoners? It seemed the prisoner was resisting the cops, and probably put himself in that predicament, but there is no excuse for what the so called cop did, he should be charge with cold blood murder, no ifs or buts about it.

[< <Samson> >]

Hope those cops rot in hell

Come on bro

That guy was lunatic - nasty situation


But, who cares if he's a BB or whatever - that guy went ape shit on those pigs. But, 99.999999% are rat Bastard POS's who use brutality and fatality unmannerly at times. But, WTF would I have done in that situation? Beating the shit out of the guy to keep him down isn't looked at much differently.

Sucks ass - shit like this makes me side with LE to a point :/


I am 99.9999% anti LE - But, they have a nasty job to do & restraining that maniac is a part of their rough ass job.

[hawk14dl]

Guy was out of hand. But damn they said he was tased 4x earlier and didn't respond? He thought he had the upper hand because they couldn't do anything to him.

He was in jail for a reason. Let's not forget that.

I hate it when anyone dies. But for f*cks sake, just do what's right and you'll never end up in this predicament

[thisAngelBites]

Come on bro

That guy was lunatic - nasty situation


But, who cares if he's a BB or whatever - that guy went ape shit on those pigs. But, 99.999999% are rat Bastard POS's who use brutality and fatality unmannerly at times. But, WTF would I have done in that situation? Beating the shit out of the guy to keep him down isn't looked at much differently.

Sucks ass - shit like this makes me side with LE to a point :/


I am 99.9999% anti LE - But, they have a nasty job to do & restraining that maniac is a part of their rough ass job.

He was resisting them, but he was handcuffed, and even if he could front his cuffs, he was in fact lying on the ground when he was shot, both the cop and civilian helper were not in danger at the time of the shooting. Under the youtube vid it says police took him to a mental health centre after the jail refused him, and in the story above it said he was exhibiting bizarre behavior. So that is a potential question: why would police think it is okay to use deadly force against someone who might be in some chemically altered state of consciousness, or have a mental health problem, when they were cuffed and on the floor?

It is almost as though that cop used a bullet in order to regain control of the situation.

[kelkel]

That IS on topic. Like there is some stigma with the fact that he is a bodybuilder that might justify such a reaction. I guess if you are donut eating coffee drinking slob maybe someone in good condition is a threat. Then again maybe ..well forget it..I agree...it annoyed me too...

Yep. Like his massive amount of muscle put them in fear of their life. Somebody post his stats dammit!

[Dpyle]

Yep. Like his massive amount of muscle put them in fear of their life. Somebody post his stats dammit!

Article said 5'8 217

[diesel101]

He didn't deserve to get shot in my opinion but a good beating with a night stick would not have been out of line.

[thegodfather]

Guy was out of hand. But damn they said he was tased 4x earlier and didn't respond? He thought he had the upper hand because they couldn't do anything to him.

He was in jail for a reason. Let's not forget that.

I hate it when anyone dies. But for f*cks sake, just do what's right and you'll never end up in this predicament

Ok, that is a ridiculous argument. It actually amazes me that people can in any way, shape, or form defend the actions of the law enforcement officer. This is a common misconception in America, that because he was 'arrested' or in 'jail' then he MUST have done something wrong, he MUST deserve it. Let me remind you people, that being 'ARRESTED' is only an ACCUSATION, it is not ANY INDICATION OF GUILT! He was not in prison, he was not convicted, he was innocent, because he was never proven guilty. There are THOUSANDS of people arrested every single year who in fact did absolutely nothing wrong, and are completely innocent. In fact, there are thousands of people a year convicted for crimes of which they are innocent, and I'll direct you to 'The Innocence Project' as an example of hundreds of people who have been spared death row and life sentences for crimes that they did not commit. Ergo, declaring that he must have 'DESERVED' it because he was in handcuffs, in jail, is ridiculous. Furthermore, thousands of people who are arrested or go to jail resist arrest and become combative, not the least of which is mentally ill people (who are many times more likely to have deadly force used against them, than their sane counterparts).

The only time a law enforcement officer is permitted to use deadly force is in defense of his life or the lives of others. A person must pose a CLEAR threat to life, and the officer must reasonably believe that he or a 3rd party is likely to suffer death or grievous bodily injury at the time deadly force is used. Grievous bodily injury is not a black eye or a bruise, it is an injury which could lead to death, disfigurement, or permanent disability. It is nearly impossible to argue that a suspect/inmate poses such a threat when handcuffed, and when there are dozens of law enforcement personnel in close proximity which could render overwhelming force. Hence why I said there were numerous violations of protocol. Jails have 'Restraint Chairs,' which is precisely the tool that should have been implemented for this individual when he was less combative (there is 43 minutes of video related to this case which demonstrate as much). That the two officers chose to drag this individual out back, and then not to attempt to use a restraint chair, or to call for backup to use overwhelming force on this 'dangerous bodybuilder, is inept. That the officer had a firearm INSIDE a jail facility, is a major violation of protocol, in any American jail that I'm familiar with; I cannot name one facility which allows anyone to carry a firearm inside the jail premises, other than guards on the exterior of the jail, or guard within a control pod/shooting perch within a PRISON.

[thisAngelBites]

Ok, that is a ridiculous argument. It actually amazes me that people can in any way, shape, or form defend the actions of the law enforcement officer. This is a common misconception in America, that because he was 'arrested' or in 'jail' then he MUST have done something wrong, he MUST deserve it. Let me remind you people, that being 'ARRESTED' is only an ACCUSATION, it is not ANY INDICATION OF GUILT! He was not in prison, he was not convicted, he was innocent, because he was never proven guilty. There are THOUSANDS of people arrested every single year who in fact did absolutely nothing wrong, and are completely innocent. In fact, there are thousands of people a year convicted for crimes of which they are innocent, and I'll direct you to 'The Innocence Project' as an example of hundreds of people who have been spared death row and life sentences for crimes that they did not commit. Ergo, declaring that he must have 'DESERVED' it because he was in handcuffs, in jail, is ridiculous. Furthermore, thousands of people who are arrested or go to jail resist arrest and become combative, not the least of which is mentally ill people (who are many times more likely to have deadly force used against them, than their sane counterparts).

The only time a law enforcement officer is permitted to use deadly force is in defense of his life or the lives of others. A person must pose a CLEAR threat to life, and the officer must reasonably believe that he or a 3rd party is likely to suffer death or grievous bodily injury at the time deadly force is used. Grievous bodily injury is not a black eye or a bruise, it is an injury which could lead to death, disfigurement, or permanent disability. It is nearly impossible to argue that a suspect/inmate poses such a threat when handcuffed, and when there are dozens of law enforcement personnel in close proximity which could render overwhelming force. Hence why I said there were numerous violations of protocol. Jails have 'Restraint Chairs,' which is precisely the tool that should have been implemented for this individual when he was less combative (there is 43 minutes of video related to this case which demonstrate as much). That the two officers chose to drag this individual out back, and then not to attempt to use a restraint chair, or to call for backup to use overwhelming force on this 'dangerous bodybuilder, is inept. That the officer had a firearm INSIDE a jail facility, is a major violation of protocol, in any American jail that I'm familiar with; I cannot name one facility which allows anyone to carry a firearm inside the jail premises, other than guards on the exterior of the jail, or guard within a control pod/shooting perch within a PRISON.

Thanks for posting this. I didn't have the strength to type it, but I'm with you 100%. I can't stand that notion that if the police are even speaking to someone, they must have done something wrong. It's a very naive and idealistic notion of policing that does not stand up to factual analysis.

[Euroholic]

Yep. Like his massive amount of muscle put them in fear of their life. Somebody post his stats dammit!

I think this is him

[Times Roman]

do you need to sign in to Google or something to view the video?

I tried a few times and nothing.........

[Lunk1]

Well, since you asked specifically for it, IMO it was an accidental discharge. Like everyone else I am Monday Morning Quarterbacking the video and cant speak of the officers intent but the actions in the video appear to be that of someone who did not intend to pull the trigger and was shocked when it fired. If this was indeed the case then whatever the states terminology for unintentional homicide would apply. In this state it's manslaughter..same thing as killing someone while drunk driving. Its murder without intent but based on negligence.

[Sicko]

That is why I do not talk smack to a cop or resist arrest...not that I arrested anymore but I got the crap kicked out of me once by some Santa Monica police officers. Bad enough to spend a couple of days in medical ward.
My friend who was driving was arrested for DUI. I was detained for 72 hours and released no charges filed
I was simply a passenger with a bad attitude and it cost me a couple weeks of pain.
This was a eye opener as to what they can do and get away with. They could have easily killed me and planted a weapon on me or anything they wanted to do.
Time and time again cops are caught publically abusing/beating/killing citizens and it is rarely ever addressed as it should be...as a violent crime.
They have a tough job.. I get it but regardless when a crime has been committed they should not be above the law. The same punishment should and needs to be enforced. Otherwise they will never change.
Sad....
I have to wait to see the video since I am at work I cannot stream videos on the company data plan.

[Times Roman]

Savannah, Ga cops kicked my ass one time...............

[austinite]

Anything short of the death penalty is garbage.

There was NEVER a need to even pull the gun out of the holster, let alone call it an "Accidental discharge". LOL at that argument, Lunk.

Death penalty will not do justice, but it's all I could ask for.

[Lunk1]

^^^^ I wasn't arguing for the case. Just stating my opinion of what appeared to happen. I agree that at no time did I ever see a time where a firearms needed to be introduced into the scenario. I also immediately questioned why neither officer grabbed a radio and attempted to call for help considering they were at a detention facility where ample help should have been readily available.

[austinite]

^^^^ I wasn't arguing for the case. Just stating my opinion of what appeared to happen. I agree that at no time did I ever see a time where a firearms needed to be introduced into the scenario. I also immediately questioned why neither officer grabbed a radio and attempted to call for help considering they were at a detention facility where ample help should have been readily available.

Can you make me one of those shooting target thingies? I'll pay.

[Lunk1]

Can you make me one of those shooting target thingies? I'll pay.

Do you really want one?

[austinite]

Do you really want one?

I really do, but I'd like to get involved in the build. That post you made made me want to build one. I'm no welder though. Would be a bolt-on set.

[Lunk1]

I really do, but I'd like to get involved in the build. That post you made made me want to build one. I'm no welder though. Would be a bolt-on set.

It would be very easy to build it as a bolt together. It could be shipped as a kit. The plates already slide out of brackets in the back and the post unbolts from the base.

[thegodfather]

Well, since you asked specifically for it, IMO it was an accidental discharge. Like everyone else I am Monday Morning Quarterbacking the video and cant speak of the officers intent but the actions in the video appear to be that of someone who did not intend to pull the trigger and was shocked when it fired. If this was indeed the case then whatever the states terminology for unintentional homicide would apply. In this state it's manslaughter..same thing as killing someone while drunk driving. Its murder without intent but based on negligence.

No such thing as an accidental discharge...If your weapon discharges unintentionally, it is a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. In which case I agree that negligent homicide would be appropriate, but also agree with Austinite that the weapon should never have been removed from the holster.

[Lunk1]

No such thing as an accidental discharge...If your weapon discharges unintentionally, it is a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. In which case I agree that negligent homicide would be appropriate, but also agree with Austinite that the weapon should never have been removed from the holster.

Its a term..its just semantics so don't get to hung up on the wording. The bottom line is that it appears he did not intend to shoot based on my observation of the video. I also agree that he had no reason to draw a firearm in that scenario. I have seen this type of thing happen once. The officer shot and killed a man after a small pursuit. He stated he thought the driver was reaching for a weapon. I'm convinced (after watching the video) that the gun was discharged when he tried to use the muzzle to break the glass, punching forward and had a finger on the trigger. The court ruled the shooting was justified and I have not spoken to him since.

[austinite]

Its a term..its just semantics so don't get to hung up on the wording. The bottom line is that it appears he did not intend to shoot based on my observation of the video. I also agree that he had no reason to draw a firearm in that scenario. I have seen this type of thing happen once. The officer shot and killed a man after a small pursuit. He stated he thought the driver was reaching for a weapon. I'm convinced (after watching the video) that the gun was discharged when he tried to use the muzzle to break the glass, punching forward and had a finger on the trigger. The court ruled the shooting was justified and I have not spoken to him since.

Question: What is the purpose of drawing a weapon?

I personally don't draw my weapon when I pour my coffee, or make a salad. I draw to either shoot or prepare for the need to shoot. Both scenarios come with intent.

[Lunk1]

Easy killer, I have agreed with you twice now that there was NO need to draw a weapon in this scenario. As to the second part of your comment. Drawing a weapon does NOT constitute intent. I NEVER have intent to kill someone when I draw my weapon but I'm now prepared if the need were to arise to protect myself.

[austinite]

Easy killer, I have agreed with you twice now that there was NO need to draw a weapon in this scenario. As to the second part of your comment. Drawing a weapon does NOT constitute intent. I NEVER have intent to kill someone when I draw my weapon but I'm now prepared if the need were to arise to protect myself.

lmao. I'm just playing devil's advocate. In Texas, we draw with intent.

I'm going to do my first desk pop right now.

[Lunk1]

lmao. I'm just playing devil's advocate. In Texas, we draw with intent.

I'm going to do my first desk pop right now.

I thought in Texas you carry at the low ready all the time

[kelkel]

I really do, but I'd like to get involved in the build. That post you made made me want to build one. I'm no welder though. Would be a strap-on set.

Wait.....what?

I personally don't draw my weapon when I pour my coffee, or make a salad.

Aw come on. How can you not draw a weapon when you make a salad? Or walk by a treadmill for that matter....

[austinite]

Wait.....what?



Aw come on. How can you not draw a weapon when you make a salad? Or walk by a treadmill for that matter....

Only Kel can do this

[kronik420]

at the very least, the cop should lose his job..

i've lost my job before over far less...