Political views

[Kärnfysikern]

Does anyone else feel that the way society works nowdays is very destructive and wrong?? Atleast here in sweden the left wing parties are growing stronger and stronger(especialy among the teens).
I dont know how people still can belive the load of crap that everyone is equal! It has never been that way, it will never be that way and thinking that way isnt only stupid, its dangerous. Those kinds of thoughts have no place in politics, but still those left wing parties preach it like gospel.

I strongly belive that the right to vote should not be given to all!! It should be earned. IMO only a elite part of the population should be given the right to vote. People that clearly proves that they are inteligent and educated enough to make decisions about how the state is going to be run.

I just se some of the people around me and I for one DONT want those people to be part in taking decisions that ultimately will effect me.
IMO a big part of the population is now just voting for the party that most likely will make it easier to get social security ect.

Doesnt anyone else aggre that if we dont stop focusing so much on the weak it will fuck upp everything? I dont say we should abandond the less fortunare in society. But the main concern should always be on how to make the strong prospere, how to make the nation grow. The pace the nation advances in should be set by the strong, not the weak.
If people get a chanse to be lasy the majority of people will take it, no doubt about it. So more and more people will vote left wing just to get more social security and have to work less.

Something must continuously push the population into improving. Otherwise society will stagnate(like it already is starting to). If it keeps on like this we can kiss civilisation goodbye.
Its truly fucked upp when people scream that the rich doesnt deserve their money, when the gifted shouldnt get better jobs because its "unfair". when will people start to realise that some people accutaly is better, more gifted, smarter?
Suporting the weak to much will just make everyone weaker, suporting the strong will make everyone stronger(because in that case the weak has no other choise then to improve).

Blah thats enough ranting for this night, I know my english is sometimes crappy and that I suck at spelling. So if someone feels the need to point it out its to late, I already did

[sin]

are you pushing for fascism? i believe liberalism is out of control, but the right to vote to whom? the educated, the wealthy? its too easily corrupted. maybe you should stop thinking of yourself as the center of the universe and realize that everyone deserves equal rights.

[saboudian]

Originally posted by sin
are you pushing for fascism? i believe liberalism is out of control, but the right to vote to whom? the educated, the wealthy? its too easily corrupted. maybe you should stop thinking of yourself as the center of the universe and realize that everyone deserves equal rights.

Well i think he had a decent point about the voting thing, however a method for proving who can earn that right would be pretty tough to find. I remember reading an essay about polling and how most of the people didn't know anything about the topic that they were giving answers to.

I don't know if this is much of a problem so much anymore, with all the media coverage on elections, 24 hr gvmt news channels, and your union even sends you a letter on how you should vote.

I do disagree with sin on everyone deserving equal rights, everyone has the right to bear arms but i don't want my 90 yr old grandpa with mr magoo like vision to go out hunting any time soon.

[LORDBLiTZ]

Canada has some real dipshits in charge of this country.I don't want to get going on this....but the only reason i don't kill people is because it's illegal

[Kärnfysikern]

Originally posted by sin
are you pushing for fascism? i believe liberalism is out of control, but the right to vote to whom? the educated, the wealthy? its too easily corrupted. maybe you should stop thinking of yourself as the center of the universe and realize that everyone deserves equal rights.

Well I dont think of myself as the center of the universe.
Like saboudian says it would be hard to find a good method to test people to se if they deserve to vote. But I still think that it would be the best way.

Maby we should start running countries like companies. Treat the population like employes and only the stockholders(the elite)has any right in making descisions that concerns the company.

BTW I think that if only a elite group of people would be able to vote then it would push everyone into trying to become elite and raising the standard for everyone, the ones to lasy to try to get voting rights doesnt deserve it anyway.
It is easily corrupted but I still think it would be a way superior system to the one most western countries has now.

Has anyone read heinleins starship troppers? The goverment and law system in that book is what gave me my political ideas. It makes perfect sense.

[palme]

Originally posted by johan
Well Maby we should start running countries like companies. Treat the population like employes and only the stockholders(the elite)has any right in making descisions that concerns the company.

So you think that the "elite" is better then the rest of us? Is that what your saying?
Then i feel sorry for you cause the rich folks dont know shit about how to run anything!
Fucking spoiled punks!

[Kärnfysikern]

Originally posted by palme
So you think that the "elite" is better then the rest of us? Is that what your saying?
Then i feel sorry for you cause the rich folks dont know shit about how to run anything!
Fucking spoiled punks!

I just meant that those who can show their ability to make good political decisions will have the same place in the country as stockholders has in a company.

I dont mean that the rich should be the elite, only those that are knowlegable and inteligent. If some of them happens to be rich then fine by me. I dont think money is any good indication of ability to run things.
Atleast not money gained from parents or given in any other way. But I would rather trust the economy in the hands of Bill Gates and his finacial advisors then the financial minister we have now in sweden(dont remember his/her name but apperently that person didnt even pass in maths).

I think to some extent equal rights is bullshit, I mean why in gods name should say a wifebeating, coachpotatoe have the same rights as a professor, doctor, engineer ect? Who contributes most to society? Obiously the couchpotatoe is a leach on society and right now we are encouraging more to become couchpotatoes. A big piece of the money that right now goes to imigrants and people that are to lasy to work should go to education instead. And no Im not a racist and I have nothing against imigrants either, its just painfully obvious that sweden(and aperently USA to from what I read)is letting way to many people in.
I can take the town I live in as a example, its a very small town with high unemployment. Still they send huge ammounts of imigrants to this town, people that will never find work here and that will have no other choise then to leach on the state to survive.

LoL it seems like Im coming off like a cold hearted bastard in this thread, but it is my firm belife that politics should be run by logic not emotions.

[palme]

Well i agree on you on that point bro. You should contribute to society and not be a leach.

Im not going to go deep in politcs, just a bounch of people with no real view of how life is. Thank god for AR

[jeffylyte]

here in the states they already tried to make only the intelligent vote. they were called jim crow laws. they figured (50 years back) that if they made you take a test to vote and purposely underfunded education in minority neighborhoods, then the blacks couldnt vote. thats what happens in politics. a powerful minority calls the shots most favorable to them and pushes for thier view of the world. It happened with fascism, stalinism, rascism, and most of the 'isms you can imagine.

Democracy is founded on the principle that the intelligence of society is much greateer than the sum of the individuals. for the most part this is true. People are stupid, society is less so. Of course thats why the bar is set so high. 50% of a population to agree on somehthing makes it hard to find a concensus. but if you do, its likely the right choice.

of course, tell that to Al Gore!

[Cycleon]

actually - the founders of the US constitution were all "the best asn brightest" and frankly did not believe in giving the governance to "every man" - that is democracy - more in their minds were to have men who were educated and intelligent and more signifi8cantly, those who owned land (therefore having a direct interest in the affairs of the country - a rare new right at the time) - these would make decisions for the "average man" - it was assumed that debate and discourse among these would bring about the best decisions - now we have a system in which the weakest link can destroy an entire program - entire buildings for homeless people cant be built because it wont have a laundry in it - we have gone from a country where rights that once meant freedom have been corrupted to mean entitlements to the mass populi and where corrupt lawyers buy votes via the peoples money

[jeffylyte]

notice that I didnt say the us was founded on.. i said democracy was founded on. to be honest the us was founded on teh principle that the average man was stupid and therefore we needed a relief valve in case he made a wrong decision (the delegate system), that we are in essence a collection of nations, that blacks are 3/5's of a person, and that women and indians donn't matter. remember that the amendments were placed there because of the thought that an individuals freedom is paramount that in essence the individual is more important than society. it really comes to the following distinction: in the east, the individual exists because of the society and therefore must sacrifice for it, in the west, the society exists cause of individuals.

a real democracy is one person one vote. everybody treated equal under the law. if you don't like that fine. just dont complain if all of a sudden somebody sets it up and you are left in the cold along with blacks, latinos women, indians, jews, disabled, etc.

[Cycleon]

jeffy - but you will notice that that horribly imperfect system that all those nasty old white men set up is the single most primary reason that people in the world enjoy the levels of representation and relative freedoms that they do - America is the reason there are almost no monarchies left in the world - and unlike the Greeks and the Romans who both had massive world influence during their time - the Greeks via culture and art the Romans via law and military - the US allows even the NON CITIZEN to have a say via its laws that treat "all equal" but if you will notice that these societies before it treated citizenship and the right to vote very precious - when their numbers were watered down by "externals" coming in to "blend" the society, it lost its edge and its empire. I am less familiar with the Greeks but I know for sure that the moment the Romans began handing out the dole (yes, they had welfare as well) in order to please the voters (even if it was just for the senate since cesar was an autocracy) it was a matter of time before the fall.

People began focusing on what the empire owed them rather than how to make it great and we have an entire nation of sycophantic pols who promise the riches of the most capable to the dregs of society - we are not speaking of the widowed and ill but the unwilling and lazy and I am sad to say that entire ethnicities have lowered themselves to be pavlovian dogs waiting for scraps at the table and grumbling that their master doesnt give them what they deserve, rather than making it happen for themseles

[Kärnfysikern]

Originally posted by CYCLEON
jeffy - but you will notice that that horribly imperfect system that all those nasty old white men set up is the single most primary reason that people in the world enjoy the levels of representation and relative freedoms that they do - America is the reason there are almost no monarchies left in the world - and unlike the Greeks and the Romans who both had massive world influence during their time - the Greeks via culture and art the Romans via law and military - the US allows even the NON CITIZEN to have a say via its laws that treat "all equal" but if you will notice that these societies before it treated citizenship and the right to vote very precious - when their numbers were watered down by "externals" coming in to "blend" the society, it lost its edge and its empire. I am less familiar with the Greeks but I know for sure that the moment the Romans began handing out the dole (yes, they had welfare as well) in order to please the voters (even if it was just for the senate since cesar was an autocracy) it was a matter of time before the fall.

People began focusing on what the empire owed them rather than how to make it great and we have an entire nation of sycophantic pols who promise the riches of the most capable to the dregs of society - we are not speaking of the widowed and ill but the unwilling and lazy and I am sad to say that entire ethnicities have lowered themselves to be pavlovian dogs waiting for scraps at the table and grumbling that their master doesnt give them what they deserve, rather than making it happen for themseles

Cycleon you sure have a way with words.
Our views are exactly the same.

Im not at all familiar with history of the great empires Im sad to say. But it seems painfully obvious that society as we know it is going to fall even without the historical knowlege. Democracy is not working as it should anymore.

[Cycleon]

well - I hate to say so but johan, you live in a textbook example of a modern socialist state - most of Europe is socialist and most Americans are not really well aware of that - it is also why the EU is so tarif concious - they are terribly uncompetive - they also have a HUGE muslim population that they have allowed in but who has NOT "integrated" into their societies - and I have a feeling that they will feel the pain of that one day - I have many muslim friends but I do not want their cultural belief system to dominate our country - If I wanted Saudi Arabia I would go there, I do not want it here - and what is funny is that the same liberals who are so gung ho on defending alternate social lifestyles will be the first to go under the "regime" they so ardently espouse - has no one learned anything from history? the US conquered communism only to surrender to socialism - which is just the newer form of communism in disguise

[Kärnfysikern]

Originally posted by CYCLEON
well - I hate to say so but johan, you live in a textbook example of a modern socialist state - most of Europe is socialist and most Americans are not really well aware of that - it is also why the EU is so tarif concious - they are terribly uncompetive - they also have a HUGE muslim population that they have allowed in but who has NOT "integrated" into their societies - and I have a feeling that they will feel the pain of that one day - I have many muslim friends but I do not want their cultural belief system to dominate our country - If I wanted Saudi Arabia I would go there, I do not want it here - and what is funny is that the same liberals who are so gung ho on defending alternate social lifestyles will be the first to go under the "regime" they so ardently espouse - has no one learned anything from history? the US conquered communism only to surrender to socialism - which is just the newer form of communism in disguise

Yeah I know about this country and I cant belive everyone is so blind to vote for the socialist party!!! Its insane and its just growing in popularity.
But it seems impossible for the tide to turn, socialism will just grow stronger and stronger here
And some parts in sweden are almost stricktly imigrants(I assume many of those are muslims). I to belive it will be the cause of major problems because most of them have no motivation to become a part of the swedish society. But that might change last election a right wing party presented the all imigrants have to pass a language test. Atleast its a small step towards forcing them to intergrate. That party increased enormously in votes(but unfortunaly mostly to the cost of other right wing partys).

Every time I get the chanse I discus politics with the fanatic socialists I meet(for some reason they are always females and always extreme feminists to) and even though I ALWAYS completly crush their best arguments they still wont budge in their belife of the perfect little ideal world they think socialims is going to create. Makes me want to puke. I remember one girl i discussed it with and she thought Im sic because I defened Bill Gates right to have his money, she feelt its so unfair that he is rich while lots of people have to eat out of trashcans, those kind of fanatics are not so few either in this country it seems.

[jeffylyte]

Originally posted by CYCLEON
jeffy - but you will notice that that horribly imperfect system that all those nasty old white men set up is the single most primary reason that people in the world enjoy the levels of representation and relative freedoms that they do - America is the reason there are almost no monarchies left in the world - and unlike the Greeks and the Romans who both had massive world influence during their time - the Greeks via culture and art the Romans via law and military - the US allows even the NON CITIZEN to have a say via its laws that treat "all equal" but if you will notice that these societies before it treated citizenship and the right to vote very precious - when their numbers were watered down by "externals" coming in to "blend" the society, it lost its edge and its empire. I am less familiar with the Greeks but I know for sure that the moment the Romans began handing out the dole (yes, they had welfare as well) in order to please the voters (even if it was just for the senate since cesar was an autocracy) it was a matter of time before the fall.

People began focusing on what the empire owed them rather than how to make it great and we have an entire nation of sycophantic pols who promise the riches of the most capable to the dregs of society - we are not speaking of the widowed and ill but the unwilling and lazy and I am sad to say that entire ethnicities have lowered themselves to be pavlovian dogs waiting for scraps at the table and grumbling that their master doesnt give them what they deserve, rather than making it happen for themseles

i never said i didnt like what the founding fathers set up. to the contrary, ive said that unfortunately weve perverted the original intient of what was set up. they just looked at the world through theworld view predominant at the time. i just try to look at the facts, not judge. although we may not be the most free country right now, we are in the top ten and we are the standard to judge by and we are the reason so many others practive some form of democracy and we are the reason they enshrine basic human rights. my point is this, while you may not want others sittin on thier ass doing nothing, and to not give them welfare, fine. however, you must accept thier voting as a necessary evil of democracy, otherwise somebody gets to choose who doesnt get all the rights of society. who is that you? me? pat robertson? al sharpton? i dont feel comfortable with any (especially me, cause only gym rats will vote! )

a few points also need to be made: 1) you may not want to let in all the muslims and let them influence our culture, but the sad fact is if you want to remain a superpower, our economy demands a population growth. we just don't produce enough babies. third world countries just breed faster than we do. demographics don't lie. thats why we are gonna be in a world of poo in 50 years. if current trends continue... israel will have more arab citizens than jewish. muslims will be the largest minority in europe. and third in the us. 2)rome fell more because of christianity than any other factor. second was likely the sheer scope of the empire. once cesar turned christian and declared the holy roman empire, the games came to an end and the population realized that almost half were unemployed and didnt like it too much. 3) socialism and communism are more disparate than you think. be that as it may. a unique study was carried out about 5 years back showing that the greatest factor in economic growth and per capita income was freedom. it overshadowed tax rate, technol. superiority, etc. the us wasnt first either. we just had the largest economy, not the fastest growing. 4)europe (as defined by western europe) is not as uncompetitive as you think. this is all about relative advantage. what is thier relative advatage over us? . we have equal levels of technol. advancemnt. and similar cost of living (bottom line costs). thiers is the relative lack of unions (wchich drive up wages dispropportionate to efficiency). this is why european and japanese car companies are destroying american. in other industries like food production we have the advantage. the third world has a labor relative advantage. you also have to consider shipping costs (which for the chemical industry are heavy). europes main problem is except for a few contries they have a negative population growth which will drive up wages and hurt output.

anyway, gotta go sorry the coffee made me so verbose

[markas214]

As far as restricting the right to vote by having some type of intelligence test I believe you are dead wrong. You see we don't need a formal test here in the USA as we only have 50% of the people turn out for national elections. Proving that stupid people, poor people, indifferent people, disillusioned people, uneducated people, etc. do not vote any way. They just complain about the government and do nothing to initiate changes.

[Tock]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by johan
[B]
I dont know how people still can belive the load of crap that everyone is equal! It has never been that way, it will never be that way and thinking that way isnt only stupid, its dangerous.

==============
In one way, it's true that not everyone is equal . . . some people are smarter than others, some are better in math or ping-pong or music or spatial perception or empathy etc etc etc than others.
But in the political way, yes, we all ought to be considered equal amongst ourselves. And I say so on the grounds that there really is no reason why some people should have more political rights (free speech, religious views, privacy, property, assembly, etc) than others. I suppose once you start down that road, you can eventually get to the point where some people end up as slaves . . . not a good thing in a society.
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I strongly belive that the right to vote should not be given to all!! It should be earned. IMO only a elite part of the population should be given the right to vote. People that clearly proves that they are inteligent and educated enough to make decisions about how the state is going to be run.

=============================

One big advantage to giving the right to vote to everybody is that it cuts way back on civil unrest/violence. When things go bad, everyone knows they're the ones who put the idiot politicians in power, and they know they can vote 'em out. Gives the general public an option to rioting and violence.
. When you start trying to select smart people to run a government you run into problems . . . smart people often have different opinions of the way things ought to go. And smart people often make horrible choices -- take McNamara's decision to support the escalation of war in Vietnam, for example. Or the decision in the response to the Wall Street Crash of 1929 by the US Federal Reserve System to tighten the money supply. Or Nixon's henchmen in the Watergate scandal. And Hitler had lots of smart people working for him too, and look at what they were trying to do . . .
. IMHO, it's best to have open government where the public and the press gets to see what's going on, and politicians/officials are held accountable for their screwups. Keeps 'em honest.
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I just se some of the people around me and I for one DONT want those people to be part in taking decisions that ultimately will effect me.
IMO a big part of the population is now just voting for the party that most likely will make it easier to get social security ect.
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Yah, I know what you mean . . . sometimes the general public can be greatly mistaken. But it's still better, IMHO, for the public to learn from mistakes (or be persuaded to change their minds) than to impose something that most of 'em won't like.

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If people get a chanse to be lasy the majority of people will take it, no doubt about it. So more and more people will vote left wing just to get more social security and have to work less.
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If this happens, eventually the money will run out and the public policies will have to change. Social security will be cut, people will be required to work to get benefits, etc etc etc, and the situation will be remedied. There'll be lots of grumbling, but hey, it's human nature.
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Its truly fucked upp when people scream that the rich doesnt deserve their money,
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Depends on how they got their money.
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when the gifted shouldnt get better jobs because its "unfair". when will people start to realise that some people accutaly is better, more gifted, smarter?
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My gosh, there are lots of reasons why more qualified people don't end up with better jobs. Racism & other forms of discrimination; sometimes ya gotta marry into the family business to get a good job; other times ya gotta go to a certain school; other times ya gotta be a member of the "Good O'l Boys Club." In my 22 years at a big multi-national corporation, I've seen plenty of idiots make not only stupid mistakes, but do stuff that was bad for the company because it was good for themselves. Other "smart" managers were just general assholes and got their jollies by abusing subordinates.
. Nah, the way things actually are done in business, love, politics, and religion have less to do with qualifications and more with office politics, who's scratching who's back (or who's screwing who), stupidity, and just plain dumb luck. Those people who do have better ideas and are more "gifted" than the corporate idiots can just start their own company, patent their own stuff, beat the numbskulls at their own game--if, of course, they truly are "better" and not just irritable ne'er do wells . . .
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Suporting the weak to much will just make everyone weaker, suporting the strong will make everyone stronger(because in that case the weak has no other choise then to improve).
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IMHO, the haves should share with those who can't take care of themselves. How far to take that policy, I can't really tell ya . . .
ooops, gotta run . . .

[Martin43]

It’s the second time that you mention facism. And as I understand you define facism as a wish for a society that is rational and hopefully just to every one, run like a corporation by an ‘enlightened’ elite/meritocracy that decides who deserves to vote, to be rewarded or punished etc… I want to respond in no particular order to some of these issues.

I live near South Africa, a country that used to be run by an elite which considered itself enlightened and rational, with job reservation for the ones that qualified only, and voting rights for, in your terms, an identified deserving and educated minority. It set itself as an example of prosperity and order for the rest of Africa. However to maintain such a society this entailed the merciless exploitation of a majority of people who were denied education, a living wage, human rights. If for some reason you questioned its premises you could be tortured, lose your job/rights/life. (As an aside for the media as sources of ‘impartial’ information, the South African government decided which ‘information’ was relevant to be disseminated through the media to its population. At the time, it was not apparent to everyone locally that this ‘info’ was propaganda. Information is always partisan and needs to be sifted through as such.)

Voting in some African states is sometimes merely a formality, a pretence to democracy when all is does is to endorse a party which is already in power and not a reflection of what the population wants/voted or of true democracy (i.e. multi party elections). As an educated person I value my vote but do not look down on ‘uneducated’ people who over here value their voting rights, and understand political necessities, some times more than the educated who do not even bother to vote. May be in Sweden people can choose not to go to university, but in African most want to become educated but lack the resources/money or the opportunity and many make sure that at least their children can go to university. I believe that the turnout for American elections is pathetic. I wonder what it is like in Sweden. Perhaps people in ‘first world’ countries do not appreciate their rights and have become too complacent about democracy.

Education equally does not guarantee enlightenment. I think it was in Sweden (a country renowned for progressive thinking) that the governments under a ‘subtle’ form of Eugenics, until ‘70s and even the ‘80s, use to practice sterilisation of men and women who came from alcoholic families for instance, in order to rid the population of such degenerates, or other ‘genetically anomalous’ individuals. This also happened in Canada I believe, though cannot remember their criteria for sterilisation. Ivan Illych wrote some interesting books about the value of education per se, for instance: ‘De-schooling Society’. I don’t know if any one reads them anymore.

As to society working like a big corporation, you might need to work in one to see that its internal politics do not always guarantee that the best individual gets the appropriate and deserved position.

I would rather see you as an idealist rather than a facist. Seeing that you are interested in politics, get yourself better informed/educated and expand your reading. Take care bro the world is a complex place.

[Kärnfysikern]

The % of the population that votes in swedish elections is alot higher then in the states. Im not sure but I think it was around 80% the last election and I think its one of the lowest % so far.

How did they decide who got the right to vote in south africa??

Democracys downfall IMO is that people start taking their rights for granted and dont exercise them in a good way. If you are forced to struggle for your rights then it seems logical that you will use your rights in a more resonable maner. Thats exactly why most people in africa like you say want to get educated, want to have rights ect. They deserve it because they are willing to fight for it.
Maby its impossible to create a "fair" facism state because someone will always corrupt it, but the way democrasy is becoming corrupted by the masses is equaly bad imo. Every political system WILL become corrupted with time it seems like. But if a big part of the population is constantly struggling to get voting rights it feels like the best of the best will always be in charge, I think the thing is that the elite cant be to small because then to much power is in to few hands, but it cant be to big either because then all democracys problems will be repeated.

I will never be a idealist, my views on the human race and society is to cynical for that.

going to respond in greather length later today...

[Animal Cracker]

Liberals are just lazy communists IMO.
Johan, you made a crap-load of good points! To many people put their rights before their civic responsibilities. When it boils down to it, Political Correctness and groups like the ACLU, SCLU and all the other "rights groups" are actually taking rights away from the majority to appease the minority...it is really a crappy thing. It is also contrary to what democracy is founded upon.
I also agree about the right to vote issue...to many people simply do not vote...even more do it uninfomed, and based off last minute opinions formed from the local news or CNN. There needs to be some sort of right of passage that grants such a privledge/right...the same with Pregnancy!

[EXCESS]

People that clearly proves that they are inteligent and educated enough to make decisions about how the state is going to be run.

Would bad grammar disqualify you from voting rights?

I strongly belive that the right to vote should not be given to all!! It should be earned. IMO only a elite part of the population should be given the right to vote.

Why don't you resurrect Hitler while you're at it?

How will people earn the right to vote? Maybe they'd pay the people that decide who can vote? Maybe that right would be granted after a favor is given? Maybe it would be a world run by the elite and big business? Why the hell am I saying "MAYBE", it WOULD be a totally corrupt system! The lower and middle class would be forgotten and slip into decay.

[palme]

it WOULD be a totally corrupt system! The lower and middle class would be forgotten and slip into decay.

You dont see this happening already?

[Kärnfysikern]

Would bad grammar disqualify you from voting rights?

Well I dont think gramar is at all important and english isnt my first language. BTW have I once even claimed I would be a part of the ruling elite?? Maby I would make an effort to be part of it but its doubtfull because I dont consider myself educated enough about current political issues to make decisions. Because of that Im NOT fit to vote. But even I who dont even make an effort knows a shitload more then most people that are voting.
Voting on random or just from what you hear from your friends is abusing the right to vote!!

Why don't you resurrect Hitler while you're at it?
How will people earn the right to vote? Maybe they'd pay the people that decide who can vote? Maybe that right would be granted after a favor is given? Maybe it would be a world run by the elite and big business? Why the hell am I saying "MAYBE", it WOULD be a totally corrupt system! The lower and middle class would be forgotten and slip into decay.

Im aware that it would be risky and that it can be corrupted. But seriously isnt democracy corrupted as hell right now??
People would earn the right to vote by showing clear knowledge that is required to make good decisions about the current issues and they would have to show they are inteligent.
I havent given this thought enough to decided how that would be done.

[mammoth]

Maby we should start running countries like companies. Treat the population like employes and only the stockholders(the elite)has any right in making descisions that concerns the company.

You can't be serious!! Have you taken notice as to what the corporate trends are recently? Enron, Worldcom?? What about all the corporate downsizing that has put our economy in one of the worst slumps that our generation has seen. This downsizing was a direct result of corporate corruption. I myself, was a victim of corporate downsizing. Not a good idea!!

Also, get rid of the attitude that stockholders are elitists! I am a stockholder in many different companies including the one I work for, and I am far from being an elitist. Any Joe Schmoe can become a stockholder.

I will agree that not everyone should be allowed to vote. Take welfare recipients who feed off other hardworking taxpayers for example. These people should not be allowed to vote because they don't pay income tax and don't contribute to society in the same manner as taxpayers do. In my opinion, I believe that the US is too liberal in its dealings with society. Everything has to be PC these days!! Arrgghh!! I hate democrats!! Now if you will excuse me I am going to go slap a few liberals with my dugan!!

[Kärnfysikern]

Also, get rid of the attitude that stockholders are elitists! I am a stockholder in many different companies including the one I work for, and I am far from being an elitist. Any Joe Schmoe can become a stockholder.

I expressed myself very porly when I said that about stockholders. I didnt mean stockholders=elite. I just mean that the elite in the society should have the same "power" over society as stockholders have over a company.

[mammoth]

I expressed myself very porly when I said that about stockholders. I didnt mean stockholders=elite. I just mean that the elite in the society should have the same "power" over society as stockholders have over a company.

Exactly my point! I am a stockholder with absolutely no authority in my company. Its the amount of shares and whether or not you are on a Board of Directors that determines your authority. Of course any stockholder with more than 30% worth of shares typically has alot of pull.

My point is this....Corporations are driven by money. Money is evil. Hence Corporations = Evil!! hehe j/k Seriously though, I would not want my country run by the same people who care about moeny rather than its employees. If you have ever been to business school you would know that one of the things that you are taught is that employees are not seen as employees. They are viewed as investments that get bought (hired) or sold (fired) to adjust for a companies Profit and Loss! Executives of large corporations a.k.a. Elitists are money-driven individuals that are only concerned with the bottom-line. If they feel that a investment needs to be sold to protect there P&L then they shall do so regardless of consequences to the employee that they lay-off.

As far as democracy goes, I would say that it's political scheme has passed the test of time. Many countries have adopted and welcomed Western Democracy and has since imporved upon there culture and economy. You will never have a flawless society. It's impossible! Not with people having free-will!

[Tock]

[QUOTE=BamaSlamma]Liberals are just lazy communists IMO.
Johan, you made a crap-load of good points! To many people put their rights before their civic responsibilities. When it boils down to it, Political Correctness and groups like the ACLU, SCLU and all the other "rights groups" are actually taking rights away from the majority to appease the minority...
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I agree, too many people put their rights before civic responsibilities. But that doesn't have anything to do with the mission of the ACLU, which is to defend the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
. If you think the US government should not have the power to require you to pray (yes, it used to be the law), and instead you think you should be able to pray (or not pray) to whatever deity you like, you agree with the ACLU. If you think the government should not have the right to deny unpopular groups the right to assembly, you agree with the ACLU. If you think that you have more rights to do what you want with your own body than the US government does, then you agree with the ACLU.
. If, on the other hand, you think the government should tax your property (car, truck, business, real estate) to pay the bills of some crazy TV evangelist, then you do not agree with the ACLU. If you agree with racial segregation, want to bring back "whites only" drinking fountains, want to criminalize inter-racial marriages, want to bring back lesser pay for equal work for non-whites, then you do not agree with the ACLU. If you beleive the government should have more control over the choices you make in your personal life, then you do not agree with the ACLU.
. The Bill of Rights is the only thing keeping crazy idiot government employees and lunatic politicians from fucking with your life. And the ACLU is one of a very few organizations that work to preserve those rights (by legal action that challenges the unconstitutional government practices), and to keep the government from becoming rabidly authoritarian. In practical terms, it means they're working so that the government is limited to lawful ways when they fuck with you. And that's a good thing . . . otherwise, as what happens in other countries without these rights, they might take you away in the middle of the night and we'd never hear from you ever again. And that would be a bad thing . . .

So don't dis the ACLU . . . they're the ones making sure the gov't abides by the law.