Wear a suit to a sermon

[Fluidic Kimbo]

In the town where I live, there's over a dozen Christian churches: Catholic, Anglican, Brethren, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Elim, and also a few independent evangelical churches.

None of these churches advertise that they have a dress code, but if you take a look at the crowd of people as they walk in, you'll see a trend.

A friend of mine is a preacher in the Brethren. The Brethren are known for having very simple churches (which they simply call a 'hall') without any pictures on the wall, without any statues, no musical instruments or sound system. All the males wear suits, and all the females wear a long dress and a hat (and their fashion sense is reminiscent of the 1950's).

I do like the Brethren, and I do have a suit that I wear from time to time when I accompany my friend to a sermon. But even after a few years, I still haven't been able to settle into the whole "wear a suit to a sermon" idea. I've asked my preacher friend why he wears a suit to sermons, and he says that he wants to be respectful, and that to meet in the name of God is the pinacle of what he respects.

People typically wear a suit for a formal occasion. I haven't asked my preacher friend the following question outright, but I wonder if he considers a sermon to be a formal occasion?

See the thing about being formal is that it disables you from being something else -- it disables you from being yourself. You cannot simultaneously be formal and be yourself.

And so is church a place where you should be formal, or is it a place where you can be yourself? Does wearing a suit to a sermon aid in showing and maintaining respect among a community of people, or does it have the effect of making people put on an act? Does it make people act formal and not be themselves? Does it mean that nobody really gets to know each other because everyone's always acting formally?

Just another thing I want to say:
Lots of people think that to be 'respectful' means to be quiet, submissive and stand-offish. In some schools, young children are taught to be submissive to their teachers -- and they call this submission 'respect'. I don't agree with this idea of respect and I think it messes kids' heads up and turns them into maladapted adults who prioritise formality over core values and morals.

I've listened to the Christian testimony of Peter Orasuk several times, you can catch it here:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermonin...SID=3305142348

Peter Orasuk was a drug addict, and then he became a Christian and got clean. If you listen to his testimony, he doesn't blame his parents for how he turned out. In fact, he claims to have come from a good home. He says that he always had to call his father "Sir". If you were to ask me what my personal opinion is on that, I'd say that it's child abuse. There should be no formality in a family home. The family home is the one place above all else where a child should be able to chill out, goof around and just be themselves. If you want your child to grow up to be an addict then I think a good place to start would be to insist that they call you Sir.

[almostgone]

Not necessarily so, here in the US. Particularly in the rural South,a lot of the country churches are a blend of people who dress formally, and others like me it's more blue jeans and button up shirt, and shoes like say a newer pair of low cut Timberlands.

If you go to a church and everyone seems to rate you by your attire (provided it's proper attire), you're either in a group masquerading as a church or a fashion show.

Absolutely, disagree with your comment :

"If you want your child to grow up to be an addict then I think a good place to start would be to insist that they call you Sir."


Teaching children to have some shred of manners would go a long way towards addressing a lot of problems with society.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

Absolutely, disagree with your comment :

"If you want your child to grow up to be an addict then I think a good place to start would be to insist that they call you Sir."


Teaching children to have some shred of manners would go a long way towards addressing a lot of problems with society.

When a child is born, it has a few instincts in its mind such as to suck a nipple, but for the most part, the mind of a child is a clean slate. It doesn't have any culture, and it doesn't know any words.

So if a one-year-old child learns "Sir" instead of "Daddy" as the moniker for their father, then the child has no idea about manners nor formality -- all it knows is that it calls its father 'Sir'. Sir = Dad.

What will be strange though, is that that child will then go to school at the age of 4 or 5, and be told to call every teacher Dad. The rule of course in the school will be to address male teachers as Sir, and female teachers as Ma'am or Miss, but the young child's perception is that they have to call all of their male teachers Dad -- because 'Sir' means Dad in their little head.

And then when they go with their father to the mechanic, and the mechanic fits a new tyre, the mechanic tells your father, "Here's your bill, Dad". Of course he actually says 'Here's your bill, Sir', but in your childish vocabulary, 'Sir' is the word for father.

There's nothing wrong with teaching kids manners and discipline, but I personally find it disgusting to maintain a formal relationship between a guardian and a child. Your kids should call you Dad and have no qualms about goofing around in your presence and making fun of you now and again. Of course if you're going to a funeral or a wedding then you'll sit them down and say we have to all be quiet and polite at the venue, but when we come home you can jump on the sofa.

As a parent you can be strict on a child, for example you can reduce their pocket money by 50% if they don't arrive home by 9pm, but that's very different from insisting that your child addresses you with the same term of address used by individuals conducting business. I find it utterly disgusting to have a child call their male guardian Sir, and I wouldn't remain in the presence of a man whose kids call him Sir, nor would I allow my own kids over to their house.

The family home should be a chill out spot for a child to develop into a happy adult.

One friend of mine has two kids, and he makes them call me "Mister Thomas". At least it's Mister + First Name, instead of Mister + Second Name. He says he makes them do that so that they'll respect me. But his kids call him Daddy so that's ok.

[almostgone]

When a child is born, it has a few instincts in its mind such as to suck a nipple, but for the most part, the mind of a child is a clean slate. It doesn't have any culture, and it doesn't know any words.

So if a one-year-old child learns "Sir" instead of "Daddy" as the moniker for their father, then the child has no idea about manners nor formality -- all it knows is that it calls its father 'Sir'. Sir = Dad.

What will be strange though, is that that child will then go to school at the age of 4 or 5, and be told to call every teacher Dad. The rule of course in the school will be to address male teachers as Sir, and female teachers as Ma'am or Miss, but the young child's perception is that they have to call all of their male teachers Dad -- because 'Sir' means Dad in their little head.

And then when they go with their father to the mechanic, and the mechanic fits a new tyre, the mechanic tells your father, "Here's your bill, Dad". Of course he actually says 'Here's your bill, Sir', but in your childish vocabulary, 'Sir' is the word for father.

There's nothing wrong with teaching kids manners and discipline, but I personally find it disgusting to maintain a formal relationship between a guardian and a child. Your kids should call you Dad and have no qualms about goofing around in your presence and making fun of you now and again. Of course if you're going to a funeral or a wedding then you'll sit them down and say we have to all be quiet and polite at the venue, but when we come home you can jump on the sofa.

As a parent you can be strict on a child, for example you can reduce their pocket money by 50% if they don't arrive home by 9pm, but that's very different from insisting that your child addresses you with the same term of address used by individuals conducting business. I find it utterly disgusting to have a child call their male guardian Sir, and I wouldn't remain in the presence of a man whose kids call him Sir, nor would I allow my own kids over to their house.

The family home should be a chill out spot for a child to develop into a happy adult.

One friend of mine has two kids, and he makes them call me "Mister Thomas". At least it's Mister + First Name, instead of Mister + Second Name. He says he makes them do that so that they'll respect me. But his kids call him Daddy so that's ok.

One year olds generally use the word Daddy. The use of Sir and Ma'am is reserved for when a child is little older as they are taught the concept of respect and discipline.

What you are describing is borderline child abuse. Few one year olds rarely use the word sir. For one thing you're comparing your archaic customs with what is done here in the US.

Father: Let go work outside in the yard.
Child: Yes, sir

Sir is not used as a title, it is used as a polite response to an interrogative, typically, but can be a polite response to a statement or suggestion.


Teaching respect is child education.

Not going to debate or discuss it. I know I'm correct.

Find a different subject to expound upon.

As far as your comment about my "childish vocabulary", go piss up a rope.

[Cuz]

Godamn why wont you find somewhere else to fuckin go.

[s1nc1ty]

Im not even religous but i think wear suit and tie or tshirt and jeans , jesus doesnt mind. If everybody else is wearing suits and you want to blend in, thats another matter and up to you. If anyone looks at you negative tell them its a fucking sermon not a costume party

[Fluidic Kimbo]

As far as your comment about my "childish vocabulary"

I wasn't taking a shot at you there man. When I said 'childish vocabulary', I meant the vocabulary of the hypothetical child.

One year olds generally use the word Daddy. The use of Sir and Ma'am is reserved for when a child is little older as they are taught the concept of respect and discipline.

So for the first 6 years, it's 'Mam/Mum' and 'Dad', yeah? And then when they're about 7ish, the father tells the child to respond to his interrogatives and directives with "Yes Sir", is that right?

Father: Let go work outside in the yard.
Child: Yes, sir

Sir is not used as a title, it is used as a polite response to an interrogative, typically, but can be a polite response to a statement or suggestion.

When I was a kid in school, I had to address male teachers as Sir, and female teachers as Miss. When making reference to another teacher, I had to say "Mister + Last Name" or "Ms + Last Name". So a conversation with a teacher might go something like this:

Teacher: Thomas, have you got your homework done today?
Child : Yes Miss, but I haven't got my notebook here, it's in the staff room.
Teacher: And what is it doing in the staff room?
Child : I had it in my bag earlier, Miss, but at lunch time Mr. Campbell took it off me to check my handwriting.

Over this side of the Atlantic Ocean at least, 'Sir' is a term of address which implies either submission or servitude. You say 'Sir' to your teacher at school. The cashier at the local hardware store would say "Sir, would you like a hand lifting those skirting boards into your trailer?".

The point I'm making here is that in my own personal view of guardianship, the relationship between a guardian and a child should be casual, friendly and lighthearted -- rather than formal and submissive. Look. . . I realise that I don't have a monopoly on the truth. There is more than one successful culture on this planet, and there is more than one successful parenting style. If having kids calling their father Sir turns out okay in some parts of America, then I'm not going to try infer that all those families are dysfunctional. All I'm saying is that I personally am adverse to that kind of relationship between guardian and child -- although perhaps I have formed this opinion entirely as a result of my own personal upbringing.

Teaching respect is child education.

Not going to debate or discuss it. I know I'm correct.

Find a different subject to expound upon.

Back to the more generic themes of formality and respect:

To those of us here on the forum who have ever done a martial art such as Karate or Ninjutsu, there may have been a formal routine at the end of each training session. When I did Ninjutsu, we all had to line up at the end of the class in a specific formation, and kneel and bow in a specific sequence. All black belts were to be addressed as 'Sensei' which is the Japanese word for teacher, and referred to as "Sensei + Last Name".

I remember one of the black belts started up his own club, and I went to train there for a year or so. At the end of the class, he didn't have us do the bow routine. He said that he didn't want to engender a false sense of respect in students by having them bow to the teachers irrespective of whether or not they respected the individual.

Some people think that respect is something that should be implicit in some situations. For example, a lot of parents think that kids should respect their teachers at school. But then there are other people who think that respect is earned -- these people believe that a kid should respect a teacher if the teacher has earned the kid's respect.

Irrespective of whether or not a kid at school respects any teacher in particular, I do believe that the child should be obedient to the teacher and follow their orders -- but I make a very clear distinction between 'respect' and 'obedience' here. What I'm saying is that the child should follow the rules without there being any mandate on the child's emotions (i.e. there is no requirement to feel the emotion of respect). Telling a child to feel a particular emotion is an attempt at mind control.

Of course though, there are limits to what orders a child must follow. For example, if a teacher were to order my child to apologise, I would tell my child to tell the teacher to immediately telephone me. I won't let the school fuck my kid's head up by compelling them to apologise. One of the most damaging events in my all school years was when I was about 9 or 10 years old, I had done something wrong and I was ordered to give a written apology to the teacher. This, of course, fucked up my idea of what an apology is, why we give apologies, and how we react to apologies. This is quite severe damage to do to the mind of a 9 or 10 year old.

I'm not an old man, but with my life experience so far I've seen a lot of what makes people tick. I have radar for stuff that most people don't notice. And I find it repulsive when false respect triggers my radar. I'm talking about people wearing the right clothes, talking the right way, saying the right things, and gesturing in the right sequence, when really there is no real emotional root of respect to it all. I am loath to tar an entire worldwide community with the one brush, but I see this a lot in Mormons.

I haven't entirely made my mind up on the matter of wearing a suit to a sermon yet, but I really think a church should be a place where we can be ourselves and not put on an act. This means it cannot be a formal place, and so dressing formally and acting formally isn't suitable. Still though I haven't made my mind up completely.

Godamn why wont you find somewhere else to fuckin go.

[almostgone]

Not going to break all that down. As you get older, children are introduced to discipline and courtesy.
Daddy/ Dad is a life long name usually. Same for Mom/ Mother. They may be 108 years old, when they ask a question or pose a statement, the response is generally Yes/No ma'am/sir. Ma'am and Sir aren't a given title. It's a gesture/ acknowledgement of respect.

No idea how why you feel the need to tie in martial arts, but 2nd dan black belt @ 13 years old in Goju-ryu, then 4 more years in what eventually became American karate. Hopefully that does something for you. I'm 58 now and my best bet is a fight is probably ground, pound, and feed their temples and windpipe elbows....whatever.

Lay off Cuz and other members families. It's not called for and that post will be in the shitpile in about 50 minutes or less.

[almostgone]

....and for what it is worth, if someone disparaged your family, I'd treat them the same as I just treated you. You just don't do that...period.

[almostgone]

I wasn't taking a shot at you there man. When I said 'childish vocabulary', I meant the vocabulary of the hypothetical child.



So for the first 6 years, it's 'Mam/Mum' and 'Dad', yeah? And then when they're about 7ish, the father tells the child to respond to his interrogatives and directives with "Yes Sir", is that right?



When I was a kid in school, I had to address male teachers as Sir, and female teachers as Miss. When making reference to another teacher, I had to say "Mister + Last Name" or "Ms + Last Name". So a conversation with a teacher might go something like this:



Over this side of the Atlantic Ocean at least, 'Sir' is a term of address which implies either submission or servitude. You say 'Sir' to your teacher at school. The cashier at the local hardware store would say "Sir, would you like a hand lifting those skirting boards into your trailer?".

The point I'm making here is that in my own personal view of guardianship, the relationship between a guardian and a child should be casual, friendly and lighthearted -- rather than formal and submissive. Look. . . I realise that I don't have a monopoly on the truth. There is more than one successful culture on this planet, and there is more than one successful parenting style. If having kids calling their father Sir turns out okay in some parts of America, then I'm not going to try infer that all those families are dysfunctional. All I'm saying is that I personally am adverse to that kind of relationship between guardian and child -- although perhaps I have formed this opinion entirely as a result of my own personal upbringing.



Back to the more generic themes of formality and respect:

To those of us here on the forum who have ever done a martial art such as Karate or Ninjutsu, there may have been a formal routine at the end of each training session. When I did Ninjutsu, we all had to line up at the end of the class in a specific formation, and kneel and bow in a specific sequence. All black belts were to be addressed as 'Sensei' which is the Japanese word for teacher, and referred to as "Sensei + Last Name".

I remember one of the black belts started up his own club, and I went to train there for a year or so. At the end of the class, he didn't have us do the bow routine. He said that he didn't want to engender a false sense of respect in students by having them bow to the teachers irrespective of whether or not they respected the individual.

Some people think that respect is something that should be implicit in some situations. For example, a lot of parents think that kids should respect their teachers at school. But then there are other people who think that respect is earned -- these people believe that a kid should respect a teacher if the teacher has earned the kid's respect.

Irrespective of whether or not a kid at school respects any teacher in particular, I do believe that the child should be obedient to the teacher and follow their orders -- but I make a very clear distinction between 'respect' and 'obedience' here. What I'm saying is that the child should follow the rules without there being any mandate on the child's emotions (i.e. there is no requirement to feel the emotion of respect). Telling a child to feel a particular emotion is an attempt at mind control.

Of course though, there are limits to what orders a child must follow. For example, if a teacher were to order my child to apologise, I would tell my child to tell the teacher to immediately telephone me. I won't let the school fuck my kid's head up by compelling them to apologise. One of the most damaging events in my all school years was when I was about 9 or 10 years old, I had done something wrong and I was ordered to give a written apology to the teacher. This, of course, fucked up my idea of what an apology is, why we give apologies, and how we react to apologies. This is quite severe damage to do to the mind of a 9 or 10 year old.

I'm not an old man, but with my life experience so far I've seen a lot of what makes people tick. I have radar for stuff that most people don't notice. And I find it repulsive when false respect triggers my radar. I'm talking about people wearing the right clothes, talking the right way, saying the right things, and gesturing in the right sequence, when really there is no real emotional root of respect to it all. I am loath to tar an entire worldwide community with the one brush, but I see this a lot in Mormons.

I haven't entirely made my mind up on the matter of wearing a suit to a sermon yet, but I really think a church should be a place where we can be ourselves and not put on an act. This means it cannot be a formal place, and so dressing formally and acting formally isn't suitable. Still though I haven't made my mind up completely.

I'm pretty positive there aren't any requirements in the Greek texts making the wearing of "finery" a requirement for church. If it's a real church, you're there to learn, not for an assessment of your clothing.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

I'm pretty positive there aren't any requirements in the Greek texts making the wearing of "finery" a requirement for church. If it's a real church, you're there to learn, not for an assessment of your clothing.

Imagine you're going for a weekend away with your wife, and that you have plenty of money to spend for the occasion. You can choose a homely bed and breakfast, or a swanky five star hotel.

When a person is in fancy surroundings, they feel that they themselves need to be fancy too. When a person is in homely surroundings, they feel they can relax and just be themselves.

So if a person shows up at a church wearing a suit, and is surrounded by people wearing suits, will their frame of mind be 'fancy' instead of just chilling out? Will the air of formality and respect detract from having a more sincere eye-to-eye encounter with their fellow churchgoer? This is what I'm probing.

[lovbyts]

OK Im going to jump in for a hot second because I grew up in church and have been to many different churches as well as denominations.

My experience has always been Sunday morning is typically more formal. That being said some churches are less formal than others and some in more economically depressed locations than others.
Sunday evening is less formal, most people dont wear their "Sunday Best" or suits if they attend in the evening and any other day of the week is usually casual. No shorts and tank tops typically.

Some of its custom, some is economics (rich neighborhood vs poor) and some is just plain respect like not wearing a hat in a court room.

I went to church pretty much from week 1 until I was in my late teen. Usually Sunday Morning, Sunday night, most Wednesday evenings and once in a while other days during the week for special meetings or events.

Thats my $0.02

[almostgone]

Imagine you're going for a weekend away with your wife, and that you have plenty of money to spend for the occasion. You can choose a homely bed and breakfast, or a swanky five star hotel.

When a person is in fancy surroundings, they feel that they themselves need to be fancy too. When a person is in homely surroundings, they feel they can relax and just be themselves.

So if a person shows up at a church wearing a suit, and is surrounded by people wearing suits, will their frame of mind be 'fancy' instead of just chilling out? Will the air of formality and respect detract from having a more sincere eye-to-eye encounter with their fellow churchgoer? This is what I'm probing.

Why are you worried about the potential interaction/thought patterns of the others as long as you're wearing decent jeans, shirt, etc.

Ask yourself this: Whom did Christ spend the vast majority of his times ministering to. Well to do fancy high rollers in the local hierarchy, or the sick, less, fortunate, etc.

Like Lovbyts pointed out the time of the service has some effect, however in the churches that have two morning services, the earlier session is typically more laidback in my part of the country.

Why not to an little legwork, and see for yourself. Sit outside and see what the crowds are wearing into church?

[wango]

Kimbo, dudes were wearing suits to baseball games when I went in the mid - 60’s (though it was less and less). It’s a new world. Personally, I never understood ties, what’s the point really; purely decorative.

Depending on where you live, folks can be fickle though, so I guess it’s a question of manners.

Got a book for you. I’m really digging it; although this happened well before your time. Damn there is some interesting stuff so far.

Got to hand it to you, your choice of subject matter is a big odd, but a kick to read sometimes.

[almostgone]

Imagine you're going for a weekend away with your wife, and that you have plenty of money to spend for the occasion. You can choose a homely bed and breakfast, or a swanky five star hotel.

When a person is in fancy surroundings, they feel that they themselves need to be fancy too. When a person is in homely surroundings, they feel they can relax and just be themselves.

So if a person shows up at a church wearing a suit, and is surrounded by people wearing suits, will their frame of mind be 'fancy' instead of just chilling out? Will the air of formality and respect detract from having a more sincere eye-to-eye encounter with their fellow churchgoer? This is what I'm probing.

So are you going to church to learn or just to see how it feels to dress up.

If I get a chance I'll snap a picture of a little county church up the road. It's been in existence since 1813 when it was originally established by the Huguenots. In 1835, they moved to their current location.

I know virtually every family in that church. There's a lawyer and his wife that dress semi-casual. Modest dress for her, he may wear a sports jacket and slacks.

A couple of rows in front of the is a Native American family with 5 children. The father and kids usually wear clean bib overalls, the Mom generally wears a dress with minimal jewelry and her "dress" Western boots.

Here and there are a few of the older ladies, mainly widow, and they dress for church about like the ladies off of the Andy Griffith show.

On the other side, there's a good friend of mine that I occasionally help load cattle for the sale barn, etc. His wife will wear a skirt and blouse or slacks and a shirt. Occasionally, she may show in scrubs if she worked a long shift at the hospital.


Then you have the old guys that always see in bib overalls or work clothes. Their clothes may be patched here and there, but they're always clean.

I could go on, but I know all of the people very well. The clothes don't make the person. It's more of a small extended family


Why not scout the church out, see what attire the other people are wearing? Then, participate. You'll have your answer and may find that fine clothing and fanciness
vs. more casual clothing isn't that big of a deal/you may find you're worrying over a non-issue.

Ok, back to work.


Edit: FWIW, I hope you get your answer.

[lovbyts]

So are you going to church to learn or just to see how it feels to dress up.

If I get a chance I'll snap a picture of a little county church up the road. It's been in existence since 1813 when it was originally established by the Huguenots. In 1835, they moved to their current location.

I know virtually every family in that church. There's a lawyer and his wife that dress semi-casual. Modest dress for her, he may wear a sports jacket and slacks.

A couple of rows in front of the is a Native American family with 5 children. The father and kids usually wear clean bib overalls, the Mom generally wears a dress with minimal jewelry and her "dress" Western boots.

Here and there are a few of the older ladies, mainly widow, and they dress for church about like the ladies off of the Andy Griffith show.

On the other side, there's a good friend of mine that I occasionally help load cattle for the sale barn, etc. His wife will wear a skirt and blouse or slacks and a shirt. Occasionally, she may show in scrubs if she worked a long shift at the hospital.


Then you have the old guys that always see in bib overalls or work clothes. Their clothes may be patched here and there, but they're always clean.

I could go on, but I know all of the people very well. The clothes don't make the person. It's more of a small extended family


Why not scout the church out, see what attire the other people are wearing? Then, participate. You'll have you answer and may find that fine clothing and fanciness
vs. more casual clothing. You may find you're worrying over a non-issue.

Ok, back to work.


Edit: FWIW, I hope you get your answer.

In bold

[Mooseman33]

i cant read all this stuff, but will add some of my useless thoughts.

I know i will take shit here but...

Kimbo, you dont belong in church, you are a piece of dog shit. god dont like you nobody does. how u can post u want someone to kill themselves and then post about going to church is a joke. do the world a favor, go away, far away from anyone.
and why Im on it, who the fuck lets u around there children? how can any responsible parent allow you to be with their kids, let alone make them call u master.

ur whole life is made up, when is ur boxing match? all bullshit. just another fucking whacko

[lovbyts]

i cant read all this stuff, but will add some of my useless thoughts.

I know i will take shit here but...

Kimbo, you dont belong in church, you are a piece of dog shit. god dont like you nobody does. how u can post u want someone to kill themselves and then post about going to church is a joke. do the world a favor, go away, far away from anyone.
and why Im on it, who the fuck lets u around there children? how can any responsible parent allow you to be with their kids, let alone make them call u master.

ur whole life is made up, when is ur boxing match? all bullshit. just another fucking whacko

[Fluidic Kimbo]

i cant read all this stuff, but will add some of my useless thoughts.

I know i will take shit here but...

Kimbo, you dont belong in church, you are a piece of dog shit. god dont like you nobody does. how u can post u want someone to kill themselves and then post about going to church is a joke. do the world a favor, go away, far away from anyone.
and why Im on it, who the fuck lets u around there children? how can any responsible parent allow you to be with their kids, let alone make them call u master.

ur whole life is made up, when is ur boxing match? all bullshit. just another fucking whacko

My plot is coming to fruition. A private investigator has gotten me your file from your family doctor, and now I just need the notes that your therapist took 9 years ago. If I put this all together I can formulate a campaign of abuse to get you to self-terminate.