What's the pulse of the American people, concerning aid to Ukraine?

[XnavyHMCS]

As America again rises to the title of The Arsenal of Democracy, in her unbridled assistance to the beleaguered government, army and people of Ukraine; what do our nations people feel and think of the mind boggling expenditure, on what is literally the other side of the planet, to aid and assist this Eastern European country, in her quest to liberate their territory from the Russian invaders?

America has financially pushed the bar way out of reach of any and all of the other supporting nations. I saw a graph which demonstrated that our country's contribution is more than double that of all the other nations combined. During these times of hyper inflation and President Zelensky's "panhandling" (I don't agree with this term, but I used it for poetic / artistic effect.) to the US government; I sincerely wonder, as my students have asked specifically, what the American people think about this money which has and continues to be spent. If there is any belief that we will ever see the cash back; think again, as I saw an article detailing how long it took, and what percentage of the debts were paid back, by our allies from WW II. This reeked of classic international sodomy, in my view, especially the remuneration from the Russians. I guess that our government felt that they better take what was ultimately offered, instead of settling for nothing at all

I belong to some online reading app, and I have read a lot of opinions and justifications from contributors and commentators alike, concerning American aid. Arguments stating that: (1) When you are the biggest boy on the block, you have an obligation to neutralize the bully assist... (2) All these weapons have already been built and are basically currently collecting dust, and at least they are being used for what they were fabricated for (Combatting the Bear.). Ect...

So gents, what can you tell me?

*Not that this Rogues Gallery is by any means representative of national consensus. (Joke)

**Lets give it a college try boys, to keep this discussion from derailing as the last Ukrainian conflict thread so disappointed did.

[< <Samson> >]

There are alternate motives for all of this - exactly what? it's way above my pay grade


But, the US has no business "helping", "shoveling", "wasting" resources - All this of course as the US slides into a nice deep recession



Only thing I'm sorta thankful for is that Vladimir is a family man and is a bit strategic with his actions. I'd really hate to wake to a day where Alaska & most of the west coast just came up missing - considering they would launch out of Siberia if from anywhere.


But, who knows - but, imo it'd be in the US benefit to stfu & leave the bear to his territory

[Honkey_Kong]

America has no business in Ukraine. I'm sorry to all the members on here from Ukraine, but I don't give a fvuk about their country, much less their problems with Russia (whom I also don't give a fvuk about).

So a bunch of defense contractors with buddies in Congress are going to make billions of dollars selling bombs to Ukraine? How does that benefit myself or America? How does the CIA meddling with Russia benefit America? All it's going to do is get us to spend money we don't have on shit we don't benefit from. And worst comes, it can get us in to a war we shouldn't be part of.

In America we have so many problems of our own that we can't solve, but yet we're going to take on other countries problems? What kind of logic is that? Not to mention there's a recession going on that might just turn in to a major depression.

I'm sorry but Ukraine's problems are Ukraine's not ours and I'm tired of being Team America: World Police.

[almostgone]

As far as the financing/support of the support to the Ukraine, I'm afraid it's going to be a repeat of Afghanistan. Accountability, traceability, and responsibility on the part of our government appears to be absolutely nil.

Do I feel we should provide some aid?.Yes, in a responsible manner, not the current carte blanche status quo.

I base my views on the Budapest Memorandum and the Minsk Agreements. When Putin declared the Minsk Agreements were no longer valid in February 2022, that setup the conditions for the shit show we have now.

Honestly, I grieve for the both sides of the conflict.

[almostgone]

I'll add that I worry about the rate of depletion of our inventory of certain weapon systems. If you have money invested in General Dynamics, Raytheon, etc. you have a decent chance on beating the average market performance.


Also, yes, please discuss in a constructive manner. God knows we need a solid resolution to this conflict. The more people responsibly discuss it, the greater the chance of a palatable end to the hostilities.

[Test Monsterone]

The reason the US government is helping Ukraine is to push back the tide of tyranny. Same as it has always done (Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War, etc.)

The world is always changing directions; either into the path of authoritarianism or freedom. While I agree that it's not always in America's best immediate interest to involve itself in these sort of things, it is definitely in the interest of people everywhere in the long term. First it's Ukraine, then Moldova, then Lithuania, Latvia, etc., until it reaches our door.

I mean, was WW2 that long ago? Don't you remember what happens when you let a bully take control?

[Cuz]

Well Bidens admin really makes a lot of sense doesnt it?? Leaving a military surplus in Afghanistan for the taliban and then turning around and giving Ukraine BILLIONS meanwhile in the US we’ve never seen prices like this before. We have no business doing anything with Ukraine I think they are handling the situation fine by themselves. Most of Russias military is outdated as fuck anyway. Imagine if our socialist government put its entire emphasis on taking care of its supporters (the taxpayers) yeah wouldnt that be something

[wango]

Xnavy, I honestly think if the economy doesn’t make a more significant turnaround than it has already, you’ll see far less support happening more & more quickly and vocally. I’m genuinely surprised the public hasn’t been less generous in its support till this time considering the market, inflation, etc. And if after a long, cold winter in Europe & you start to see cracks in their support? I can’t see the American public allowing us to continue to carry the bag. I am happy to see that WW III has been averted to this point at least.

What concerns me more is the continued bonding of Russia and China. Of course there’s continued concern with Taiwan & N. Korea is getting very ballsy. If and it’s a big if, they start to get more open support from Russia (and China); YIKES. Because guess whose next? Iran. This real life game of Risk is getting creepier by the month.

So, is it wise to step away?

As was touched upon above, the US wanted no part of WWII and avoided it only until Pearl Harbor. Look how quickly that got butt ugly. Was not getting more involved sooner counterproductive?

All that said, Ukraine has wanted to be part of NATO since the 90’s and they aren’t a member yet for a reason.

[s1nc1ty]

I think the problem is not in that the US is contributing too much but that others are contriburing too little. Even if ukraines on the other side of the planet, if we let dictators and terrorists thrive it will bite you in the ass one way or the other, sooner or later. The world is one and if one side is rotting it is bad idea to pretend everything is ok, until it isnt. Its just money in the end. US is the biggest player on the international scale so its logical its contributing the most but the numbers you gave are disgraceful... other countries like eu etc. Need to contribute more

[XnavyHMCS]

Great response...!!!

I want to thank you gents for the contributions here.

I am a bit pressed for time right now, but I will be back later to respond and contribute.

[< <Samson> >]

The reason the US government is helping Ukraine is to push back the tide of tyranny. Same as it has always done (Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War, etc.)

The world is always changing directions; either into the path of authoritarianism or freedom. While I agree that it's not always in America's best immediate interest to involve itself in these sort of things, it is definitely in the interest of people everywhere in the long term. First it's Ukraine, then Moldova, then Lithuania, Latvia, etc., until it reaches our door.

I mean, was WW2 that long ago? Don't you remember what happens when you let a bully take control?

Bull shit!

The US didn’t step in into WWII for way too long. This Ukraine shit is no WWII - it’s all about $ & ulterior motives.

The US is no save a hoe, sure pretends to be tho.

Like already mentioned, pulling out of Afghanistan & now to do this.


Whatever, it’s way above all of us.

But, making Ru the way it is now - I dunno. They always have some shit up their sleeve - don’t know what’s up with the dated military tho. Oh well, that’s why I live in Merica!

[Euroholic]

The stupid American CIA under Obama and Biden were the ones who funded and supported the uprising in Ukraine back in 2014 which overthrew the government which led to Putin invading the Crimea and the reason Americans can not import Russian firearms anymore. My wife can't even bring a Russian Saiga AK shotgun from Australia to Florida.

A large portion of Russian people live in the Ukraine so it is no wonder Putin is ensuring the security of the Russian people in the eastern regions by not letting them join NATO and building more pipelines to the middle east through Ukraine.

The west has used Ukraine for decades as a cash cow with their pipelines and bio labs.

[Euroholic]

Remember back in 2003 when the media and Bush said Iraq had WMDs and needed to be invaded? Well that was a lie wasn't it. That invasion led to over a million civilians and thousands of troops being killed for no bloody reason and the reason the middle east is so unstable today.

[Euroholic]

Strongest military in the world that can project power around the world like no other and yet can't even secure its own boarders from invading people of central america.

Biden giving military aid to Ukraine and yet at the same time he wants to disarm Americans.

[Honkey_Kong]

Strongest military in the world that can project power around the world like no other and yet can't even secure its own boarders from invading people of central america.

Biden giving military aid to Ukraine and yet at the same time he wants to disarm Americans.

If America could secure its border, invaders like yourself wouldn't be here either. You're just as bad as they are. And here you are mocking the government after you cheated your way in.

[Euroholic]

If America could secure its border, invaders like yourself wouldn't be here either. You're just as bad as they are. And here you are mocking the government after you cheated your way in.

I followed the immigration law perfectly. I am lawfully married to a US citizen. She loves me and I respect her by providing for her financially.

When Trump wins in 2024 he will want to make people like me citizens. I embody the spirit of 1776.

[XnavyHMCS]

I fully agree with what Samson said, concerning the ulterior motives to get involved over there. We must be helping them for a reason and again I agree with him; whatever that is, it is way above my paygrade. My thoughts on what this / these reasons may be are as follows. (1) We want / need to protect the eastern flank from Rus. incursion and expansion. Through ensuring eastern security, we gain greater strategic advantage by the building of bases in these nations (Poland has already signed agreements for construction of US military bases.), and at the same time, we maintain continuation of the cash cow / military industrial complex. (2) We would like to beat the Bear down several notches militarily. Which would keep us on top of the heap, in this category.

I wholeheartedly concur with forum members who have touched on the historical precedence of WW II and how Europe sat on their hands and turned a blind eye to the remilitarization of the Rhineland, the Austrian Anschluss, the Sudetenland seizure and the swallowing up of the remainder of Czechoslovakia. History believes that had they acted earlier, to stop Hitler, when the Nazi regime was less prepared and far less practiced; they could perhaps have averted the bloodbath which we call The Second World War. Perhaps there is some justification to employ prophylactic measures in Ukraine, to stave off possible further and further Putin conquests (I believe that his govt. has launched, Second Chechen war 1999-2000, invasion of Georgia 2008, Ukraine 2014, Syria 2015 – present, Kazakhstan 2022 (Rus. forces sent to prop up the govt.) and finally the full scale "Special Military Operation" (I fucking love that term; it just reeks of obfuscation.) which we see today. My two questions here are, "are we any better" and "is this a legitimate fear". My response to the first is that we are quite hypocritical in our criticism; look what we did in Iraq (A sovereign nation that never "intentionally" -see USS Stark tragedy- targeted Americans.) on the preposterous premise of WMDs. If we delve deeper into American involvement abroad; I firmly believe that one would rapidly conclude that we, in our foreign policy, but not the prosecution of our incursions, are no better than the Russians. My response to the second touches again on WW II. If you are one of the unfortunate nations which found themselves under the yoke of communism, at the end of the conflagration; you feel great fear towards the invasion in Ukraine. They certainly don't want a repeat of past events to unfold in the near future. But for America; Ukraine, a nation which most likely a high percentage of US citizens couldn't find on a map, is a million miles away from us; way on the outside to influence us, to a greater degree. Yet here again, as in the past century's conflicts (WW I, WW II, the Balkans), Europe needed Uncle Sam to step in, redress the balance, right the wrongs, clean our brothers house for him. This is undoubtedly the case here, if we consider their lukewarm response since 2014. As an example I give you the Germans; on the very brink of hostilities, when pressured by the Biden govt., they contributed like 5000 helmets and lots and lots of bandages (because Ukraine was certainly going to need those). It is obvious, not to take anything away from the ******* Uk. warriors, who are doing more than the lion's share of the fighting, killing and dying (Hey, they should be; it's their country.), that they would all have been speaking Russian 9 and a 1/2 months ago, without US support.

Thanks again, gents...!!!
Always a pleasure to engage in the mental masturbation here on the forum...

[Honkey_Kong]

I fully agree with what Samson said, concerning the ulterior motives to get involved over there. We must be helping them for a reason and again I agree with him; whatever that is, it is way above my paygrade. My thoughts on what this / these reasons may be are as follows. (1) We want / need to protect the eastern flank from Rus. incursion and expansion. Through ensuring eastern security, we gain greater strategic advantage by the building of bases in these nations (Poland has already signed agreements for construction of US military bases.), and at the same time, we maintain continuation of the cash cow / military industrial complex. (2) We would like to beat the Bear down several notches militarily. Which would keep us on top of the heap, in this category.

I wholeheartedly concur with forum members who have touched on the historical precedence of WW II and how Europe sat on their hands and turned a blind eye to the remilitarization of the Rhineland, the Austrian Anschluss, the Sudetenland seizure and the swallowing up of the remainder of Czechoslovakia. History believes that had they acted earlier, to stop Hitler, when the Nazi regime was less prepared and far less practiced; they could perhaps have averted the bloodbath which we call The Second World War. Perhaps there is some justification to employ prophylactic measures in Ukraine, to stave off possible further and further Putin conquests (I believe that his govt. has launched, Second Chechen war 1999-2000, invasion of Georgia 2008, Ukraine 2014, Syria 2015 – present, Kazakhstan 2022 (Rus. forces sent to prop up the govt.) and finally the full scale "Special Military Operation" (I fucking love that term; it just reeks of obfuscation.) which we see today. My two questions here are, "are we any better" and "is this a legitimate fear". My response to the first is that we are quite hypocritical in our criticism; look what we did in Iraq (A sovereign nation that never "intentionally" -see USS Stark tragedy- targeted Americans.) on the preposterous premise of WMDs. If we delve deeper into American involvement abroad; I firmly believe that one would rapidly conclude that we, in our foreign policy, but not the prosecution of our incursions, are no better than the Russians. My response to the second touches again on WW II. If you are one of the unfortunate nations which found themselves under the yoke of communism, at the end of the conflagration; you feel great fear towards the invasion in Ukraine. They certainly don't want a repeat of past events to unfold in the near future. But for America; Ukraine, a nation which most likely a high percentage of US citizens couldn't find on a map, is a million miles away from us; way on the outside to influence us, to a greater degree. Yet here again, as in the past century's conflicts (WW I, WW II, the Balkans), Europe needed Uncle Sam to step in, redress the balance, right the wrongs, clean our brothers house for him. This is undoubtedly the case here, if we consider their lukewarm response since 2014. As an example I give you the Germans; on the very brink of hostilities, when pressured by the Biden govt., they contributed like 5000 helmets and lots and lots of bandages (because Ukraine was certainly going to need those). It is obvious, not to take anything away from the ******* Uk. warriors, who are doing more than the lion's share of the fighting, killing and dying (Hey, they should be; it's their country.), that they would all have been speaking Russian 9 and a 1/2 months ago, without US support.

Thanks again, gents...!!!
Always a pleasure to engage in the mental masturbation here on the forum...

I wouldn't draw any parallels at all between Hitler's Germany and Putin's Russia. Hitler took the Sudetenland and later invaded Poland, because both countries had regions that had higher populations and the Czechoslovakian and Polish governments were allowing the persecution of Germans that were living there. In fact, Hitler did write letters to both countries asking them to stop the persecution of those German people multiple times. So by that, he had justification to take back those lands (which were lost in the Treaty of Versailles).

In Russia's case. I've heard some spokesman for Putin's government saying they're trying to fight the Ukrainian Nazis. Which is kind of ironic since Ukraine's president is jewish and a lot of their government (much like Russia's too) is run by Jewish people. So that's obviously not the reason. Most likely, it's got a lot to do with the pipelines that run through Ukraine and all the bio labs that are there. And is that worth billions of our tax dollars? Is that worth any of our lives? I don't think so.

America needs to focus on closing the borders from all foreign invaders and to bring back manufacturing to the country. They need more skill tradesmen and more engineers and scientists of their own. This importation of foreigners because "we don't have enough homegrown workers" is bullshit. They intentionally will refuse to hire people of certain demographics and then complain that jobs are going unfilled so they need to bring in more H1B's

America needs to get rid of its "wokeness" problem.

[tarmyg]

I think what we are doing is the right thing. I would fully support us going in fully in an outright war to win this thing. Any parallel to Afghanistan I think is incorrect considering the massive cultural differences between those countries and that Ukraine has a pretty well established industrial sector especially in specialty pharma.

I think pussyfooting around world problems imagining it will all not affect us if we just focus on ourselves is a loosing strategy.

My 2c. Might not even be worth that much.

[tarmyg]

I followed the immigration law perfectly. I am lawfully married to a US citizen. She loves me and I respect her by providing for her financially.

When Trump wins in 2024 he will want to make people like me citizens. I embody the spirit of 1776.

There is following the law legally and following the spirit of the law. You might have done the former and by doing so maybe taking someone else’s spot who was actually in need of the green card for legitimate reasons. I realize by your responses you have no idea what I am saying so this will be my last response to you in any way shape or form. I hope someone calls out your fake marriage and deports you allowing some hard working South American to take your spot.

Good riddance.

[Cuz]

I wouldn't draw any parallels at all between Hitler's Germany and Putin's Russia. Hitler took the Sudetenland and later invaded Poland, because both countries had regions that had higher populations and the Czechoslovakian and Polish governments were allowing the persecution of Germans that were living there. In fact, Hitler did write letters to both countries asking them to stop the persecution of those German people multiple times. So by that, he had justification to take back those lands (which were lost in the Treaty of Versailles).

In Russia's case. I've heard some spokesman for Putin's government saying they're trying to fight the Ukrainian Nazis. Which is kind of ironic since Ukraine's president is jewish and a lot of their government (much like Russia's too) is run by Jewish people. So that's obviously not the reason. Most likely, it's got a lot to do with the pipelines that run through Ukraine and all the bio labs that are there. And is that worth billions of our tax dollars? Is that worth any of our lives? I don't think so.

America needs to focus on closing the borders from all foreign invaders and to bring back manufacturing to the country. They need more skill tradesmen and more engineers and scientists of their own. This importation of foreigners because "we don't have enough homegrown workers" is bullshit. They intentionally will refuse to hire people of certain demographics and then complain that jobs are going unfilled so they need to bring in more H1B's

America needs to get rid of its "wokeness" problem.

Couldnt agree more. “Everything woke turns to shit” hate him or love him this is true. America isnt the America i grew up in. Biden and his son have ties to Ukraine long before he was elected president as well. I mean its pretty hopeless at this point Im just doing what I can to manage with this nonsense. Hopefully a better candidate can fix this mess in 24’. Idk doubtfull.

[almostgone]

I can draw one parallel between Afghanistan and the current situation in the Ukraine that I feel passes the litmus test.

One point that many people miss is :

When we provide arms to support other nations we often pay double for the equipment provided. We paid for it once when we initially purchased the systems and then we give it away. Then we have to replace that equipment, so we just bought those items again. No matter how you slice it, that's paying double.

Again, I'm fully in favor of providing support, but let's not create a situation where we leave an ass load of equipment for an adversary to scoop up.

We need to do this, but we need to do it with a strong stance....that includes NATO members.

It's a very fine line, so I hope they have one hell of a fishbone diagram that covers all of the contingencies. (That's one hell of a task).

[< <Samson> >]

I think what we are doing is the right thing. I would fully support us going in fully in an outright war to win this thing.

Then I hope you are a US Citizen who pays a hefty amount in taxes - so, you can feel that it's not taxation - more of a contribution to the cause

[tarmyg]

I can draw one parallel between Afghanistan and the current situation in the Ukraine that I feel passes the litmus test.

One point that many people miss is :

When we provide arms to support other nations we often pay double for the equipment provided. We paid for it once when we initially purchased the systems and then we give it away. Then we have to replace that equipment, so we just bought those items again. No matter how you slice it, that's paying double.

Again, I'm fully in favor of providing support, but let's not create a situation where we leave an ass load of equipment for an adversary to scoop up.

We need to do this, but we need to do it with a strong stance....that includes NATO members.

It's a very fine line, so I hope they have one hell of a fishbone diagram that covers all of the contingencies. (That's one hell of a task).

I agree with all what you wrote here AG. I think it is worth every penny.

[tarmyg]

Then I hope you are a US Citizen who pays a hefty amount in taxes - so, you can feel that it's not taxation - more of a contribution to the cause

I pay more than I want to which I’m sure every other American will agree on. Living overseas you also get stuck paying the US world tax so there is that and I still pay property taxes back home. Happily do it if we force democracy down everyone’s throat.

[XnavyHMCS]

There is following the law legally and following the spirit of the law. You might have done the former and by doing so maybe taking someone else’s spot who was actually in need of the green card for legitimate reasons. I realize by your responses you have no idea what I am saying so this will be my last response to you in any way shape or form. I hope someone calls out your fake marriage and deports you allowing some hard working South American to take your spot.

Good riddance.

Mr. tarmyg,

Thanks, but no thanks, brother; wrong thread.

I was really enjoying the last Uk war thread here on the forum; until it went sideways. I don't want to see this happen to what I would like to consider "intelligent discussion / debate. PLEASE make an effort to keep unnecessary comments out of this discussion. Not because I think my thread is so important or good; I just don't want to see it locked up, just as it is getting started.

Thanks bro.

[Euroholic]

I think what we are doing is the right thing. I would fully support us going in fully in an outright war to win this thing. Any parallel to Afghanistan I think is incorrect considering the massive cultural differences between those countries and that Ukraine has a pretty well established industrial sector especially in specialty pharma.

I think pussyfooting around world problems imagining it will all not affect us if we just focus on ourselves is a loosing strategy.

My 2c. Might not even be worth that much.

Going in fully in a outright war would mean nuclear destruction. Nobody wants that. The US government started the war in Ukraine back in 2014 when it overthrew the government and created a puppet regime.

[XnavyHMCS]

I can draw one parallel between Afghanistan and the current situation in the Ukraine that I feel passes the litmus test.

One point that many people miss is :

When we provide arms to support other nations we often pay double for the equipment provided. We paid for it once when we initially purchased the systems and then we give it away. Then we have to replace that equipment, so we just bought those items again. No matter how you slice it, that's paying double.

Again, I'm fully in favor of providing support, but let's not create a situation where we leave an ass load of equipment for an adversary to scoop up.

We need to do this, but we need to do it with a strong stance....that includes NATO members.

It's a very fine line, so I hope they have one hell of a fishbone diagram that covers all of the contingencies. (That's one hell of a task).

Fully agree with AG, here. Only, I have way less confidence (Like AG) in any "fishbone diagrams" that will prove to be effective. My hypothesis is that Europe will be awash with weapons of war, for sale to the highest bidder (Can you say, "terrorists"? I knew you could.) As evidence I offer the fact that the Kalashnikovs employed by the November 13 terrorists, were traced back to Serbian / Balkan armories. It stands to reason. I know that currently, for the moment, at least the Polish frontier is "tighter than a bulls ass at fly time" right now; but this won't last forever. I don't believe that MANPADS, HIMARMS, etc will be on the menu for anyone, but small arms, grenades *in abundance) and explosives; why not.

[XnavyHMCS]

Then I hope you are a US Citizen who pays a hefty amount in taxes - so, you can feel that it's not taxation - more of a contribution to the cause

My first thought here was, "I doubt he has a son, of military age".

[XnavyHMCS]

Going in fully in a outright war would mean nuclear destruction. Nobody wants that. The US government started the war in Ukraine back in 2014 when it overthrew the government and created a puppet regime.

Spot on.

[Euroholic]

Ukraine is near full mobilisation with total support from the west whilst the Russians are not. Things will be slow until the new Russian offensives around the end of February early March.

[almostgone]

Fully agree with AG, here. Only, I have way less confidence (Like AG) in any "fishbone diagrams" that will prove to be effective. My hypothesis is that Europe will be awash with weapons of war, for sale to the highest bidder (Can you say, "terrorists"? I knew you could.) As evidence I offer the fact that the Kalashnikovs employed by the November 13 terrorists, were traced back to Serbian / Balkan armories. It stands to reason. I know that currently, for the moment, at least the Polish frontier is "tighter than a bulls ass at fly time" right now; but this won't last forever. I don't believe that MANPADS, HIMARMS, etc will be on the menu for anyone, but small arms, grenades *in abundance) and explosives; why not.

Yes sir,......and UAVs, NODs, possibly some of the high tech gear like radar will be stripped and sold to the highest bidder ( cough...cough...NoKo), other sensitive electronic gear. Just doesn't seem to be enough oversight/accountability. Forensic accountants are either pulling their hair out or happily flogging away at themselves.

[XnavyHMCS]

Let me reiterate (See the locked Uk war thread by Davi.); I believe that Ukraine is Russia's back yard (see map), and this is her sphere of influence.

I believe that I understand the desire for democracy, but not on the American peoples dime.

I always present this "unpopular" opinion to my students in this way: If a foreign govt. were trying to influence our Mex. or Can. neighbors, employing extreme measures to ween and entice them away from the USA; we would go to war, at the drop of a hat, to keep either of the said countries in our control / collaboration. I stand by that.

I am PROUD as fuck to see what western (this means USA, for the most part, I must also include our "battling brethren, the Brits; don't need Booz breathing down my neck...) weapons technology and training can do, under the deft application of the stalwart Ukrainian fighters. I believe that perhaps for once, the Ukrainian hierarchy isn't embezzling all of our investment. I hope that I am right there, as this nation was as corrupt and dirty as their Russian neighbors, before the conflict kicked off.

All that aside; the Uk. is a million miles away from The Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave". I still believe that, as unfortunate as this sounds, both the Uk. and the West will need to make concessions to the Motherland. If they don't, and they end up signing an armistice, it will end up being what Marshal Ferdinand Foch said about the Treaty of Versailles, “This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years!”... I am of the belief that ANY American govt. (Trump, Biden, Clinton or Howdy Doodie) doesn't give a shit about who or what is driving the Ukrainian train; we just see the promotion, prosecution and proliferation of this conflict as a cash cow for their defense contractor cronies...

Again, we are going to see how it finishes; be that sooner or later.

[XnavyHMCS]

Yes sir,......and UAVs, NODs, possibly some of the high tech gear like radar will be stripped and sold to the highest bidder ( cough...cough...NoKo), other sensitive electronic gear. Just doesn't seem to be enough oversight/accountability. Forensic accountants are either pulling their hair out or happily flogging away at themselves.

Hey BROTHER (And to think, that we started off our "virtual friendship" by me criticizing your judgement and authority in policing the forum. I will venture to add; it takes two real men to do that.),

DON"T call me sir, I worked for a living. Ha Ha Ha...!!!
You knew that was coming.

I agree with you, on the other "tools of the trade" which will be up for grabs on the world market.

[XnavyHMCS]

Ukraine is near full mobilisation with total support from the west whilst the Russians are not. Things will be slow until the new Russian offensives around the end of February early March.

Euroholic is correct here.

I believe that Rus. can definitely sustain greater casualties (Population plays a "small" roll here.) and continue to fight. In the beginning, it has been perhaps easy for the Zelensky govt. to maintain their stance of "We will settle for nothing other than the pre 2014 borders..." along with reparations and trials for the innumerable atrocities on the battlefield, blah blah blah, but when they start running into manpower problems, they will undoubtedly be more inclined to negotiate and make some concessions. This is what I think.

This must be one of the reasons for them to be pushing to finish the fight; but certainly not the only reason.

[almostgone]

Hey BROTHER (And to think, that we started off our "virtual friendship" by me criticizing your judgement and authority in policing the forum. I will venture to add; it takes two real men to do that.),

DON"T call me sir, I worked for a living. Ha Ha Ha...!!!
You knew that was coming.

I agree with you, on the other "tools of the trade" which will be up for grabs on the world market.

I was waiting to see if that would draw out a little salt.

[almostgone]

Not to change the subject of this thread one iota, but frigging geopolitics are nuts right now:

Russia-Ukraine war

Iran providing drones to Russia

Iran pushing hard into Damascus. Russia not lifting an eyebrow (unusual).
Russia pushing to revive JCPOA. ( Could be a pattern).

Israel sweating that JCPOA is revived (A constant worry).

China continuing to dry hump Taiwan's airspace en masse (Another fuse that's about lit).

Kim Jong-un continuing to fire off his fireworks ( probably as quick as he can force his starving workforce can fabricate them).

Again, continue to focus on the Ukrainian issue. Just wanted to point that out.

[almostgone]

Again, please keep this thread focused on the Ukrainian mess. I just wanted to drop my post above while it was consolidated in my mind.

[XnavyHMCS]

Not to change the subject of this thread one iota, but frigging geopolitics are nuts right now:

Russia-Ukraine war

Iran providing drones to Russia

Iran pushing hard into Damascus. Russia not lifting an eyebrow (unusual).
Russia pushing to revive JCPOA. ( Could be a pattern).

Israel sweating that JCPOA is revived (A constant worry).

China continuing to dry hump Taiwan's airspace en masse (Another fuse that's about lit).

Kim Jong-un continuing to fire off his fireworks ( probably vas quick as he can force his starving workforce can fabricate them).

Again, continue to focus on the Ukrainian issue. Just wanted to point that out.

And of the things that you listed, Kim is the least of the world's concerns.

I believe that Iran, if they are not a nuclear power, they are destined to become one and upset the delicate balance of power in the ME. Iran, I believe is destined to be a major force in the region, and rightly so, considering her geographic size and population. Furthermore, we can forget about a Desert Storm or an OIF lightening strike and clean sweep repeat in that topography; she sits like an Afghanistan on steroids , (Pun intended.) for lack of a better term. I have read that they had watched wisely what the Israelis did to the Iraqi nuclear facility, and constructed any critical infrastructure underground or burrowed deep into mountains. I believe in the unfortunate game changing fait accompli in this case. I bet the Jews are shitting themselves; either that or they are planning a first strike (I mean nuclear.) against the Iranians. In this case I believe that the best, but most unlikely course of action would be to find a peaceful solution here. Even though I fully understand that having a viable nuclear device, is light years away from an accurate, functioning ICBM which can drop on NY City. Also, I Do not subscribe to the theory that they could physically impede our access and block the Straits of Hormuz either. I know that this statement smacks of USN hubris; I doubt that you expected anything other from me. There is a reason that the unofficial moto of the USN is "The Sea is Ours". I still stand with the peace initiative here.


Again I must agree with you on the Taiwan "tight rope" which the west (That means us.) is walking. This too is just around the corner. The death knell, if not sounding already, will definitely commence when western nations, after viewing the Russians predicament in procuring chips leads to the major players (Again, the USA as a buyer.) begin manufacture at home. I heard somewhere that this has already started, after observing countries are seeing the dilemma the Bear has found itself in.

[XnavyHMCS]

Again, please keep this thread focused on the Ukrainian mess. I just wanted to drop my post above while it was consolidated in my mind.

Oops... Excuse my above post. I guess I should have just DMd you.