11 lessons from Vietnam....

[symatech]

In 1995, former U.S. secretary of defence Robert McNamara published In Retrospect, the first of his three books dissecting the errors, myths and miscalculations that led to the Vietnam War, which he now believes was a serious mistake. Nine years later, most of these lessons seem uncannily relevant to the Iraq war in its current nation-building, guerrilla-warfare phase.

1 We misjudged then -- and we have since -- the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries . . . and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.

2 We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience. . . . We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

3 We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.

4 Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

5 We failed then -- and have since -- to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine. . . . We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.

6 We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement . . . before we initiated the action.

7 After the action got under way and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course . . . we did not fully explain what was happening and why we were doing what we did.

8 We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.

9 We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action . . . should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.

10 We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions. . . . At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.

11 Underlying many of these errors lay our failure to organize the top echelons of the executive branch to deal effectively with the extraordinarily complex range of political and military issues

[BOUNCER]

Almost happened in Granada, happened in Somalia and it happened to the brits here in Ireland. Its not a mistake thats unique to America. I've said this in more than one thread, if you guys can find a book (Can't remember the author and publisher) 'The war of the flea, gorilla warfare politics and tactics' it would open your eye's some. It shows how America couldn't have beat the Vietnamese, how the Brits couldn't beat us etc. In the short term it can seem as though we militarily defeated. Unfortunetly it happened to the US in Iraq when Bush declared victory. The Israeli's won't beat the Palestinians by military mean alone, just as it couldn't do to the Hezbollah and Amal in Lebanon and the Brits couldn't beat us here. All the the same reasons as listed above.

[PurePower]

In 1995, former U.S. secretary of defence Robert McNamara published In Retrospect, the first of his three books dissecting the errors, myths and miscalculations that led to the Vietnam War, which he now believes was a serious mistake. Nine years later, most of these lessons seem uncannily relevant to the Iraq war in its current nation-building, guerrilla-warfare phase.

1 We misjudged then -- and we have since -- the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries . . . and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.

2 We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience. . . . We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

3 We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.

4 Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

5 We failed then -- and have since -- to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine. . . . We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.

6 We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement . . . before we initiated the action.

7 After the action got under way and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course . . . we did not fully explain what was happening and why we were doing what we did.

8 We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.

9 We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action . . . should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.

10 We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions. . . . At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.

11 Underlying many of these errors lay our failure to organize the top echelons of the executive branch to deal effectively with the extraordinarily complex range of political and military issues

let me guess you are a liberal

[BOUNCER]

I don't see that he's being a liberal. He's just stating a fact. The VC never won any major engagement with the enemy, it lost the battle but won the war. Same in Somalia, and the same here with the Brits. Pure military strenght alone won't win you a war.

[symatech]

let me guess you are a liberal

you know, I post anything that brings any kind of doubt that you believe america can do no wrong and they call you a liberal. you obviously have no idea what my intention was in this post. and you obviously gave no thought to your response. this could be a well discussed thread, to those who have the intelligence to see it for what it is. no im not calling you stupid....

I suppose if I had said that we were kickin the Iraqi's asses and godbless George Bush that you would all kneel before me and say "preach on brother"

please, think for yourselves. be open minded. 1 million people are NOT smarter than 1.

EDIT: and by the way I am NOT a liberal. i have stated this in numerous other threads. I am not a republican either. I vote my beliefs not because some jackass call himself a democrat or republican.

[PurePower]

Well thank God we will not have to deal with a liberal President for at least 4 more years.


bro dont let College corrupt your mind.

[bermich]

Thats a good thread. I cant help but to assume that this thread is trying to compare Vietnam to Iraq. I mean it is just an assumption unless for some reason you felt delighted to just post a thread with war history.

Id like to ask you to compare Iraq to Vietnam. Since there are almost NO SIMILARITIES, other than the fact that US troops were engaged in conflict overseas, I dont see how this thread can relate.

[bermich]

Well thank God we will not have to deal with a liberal President for at least 4 more years.


bro dont let College corrupt your mind.

Four more years of Bush will at least pave the way towards US domination. 4 more years of free oil, 4 more years of the middle east not f u c k i n g with the US.
Once a democratic pres gets the white house, then the terrorists will come out of hiding and be able to roam around freely.

[symatech]

Well thank God we will not have to deal with a liberal President for at least 4 more years.


bro dont let College corrupt your mind.

*shakes head* how can you support a man who is taking your freedom away. I would rather have a president getting his dick sucked than a president taking my freedom away...maybe thats just me.

dont let college pollute my mind? wtf is that. i make my own choices, and everything i do, say, act, believe in you better believe I have thought long and hard about. and im not just saying that. I actually give it deep contemplation...more than most do.

dont let an idiot who never worked for anything in his life corrupt your mind...even if he calls himself a republican.

[PurePower]

Four more years of Bush will at least pave the way towards US domination. 4 more years of free oil, 4 more years of the middle east not f u c k i n g with the US.
Once a democratic pres gets the white house, then the terrorists will come out of hiding and be able to roam around freely.

So true So true........it scares the sh!t out of me.


One thing is for sure though we will not have to worry about the saddam hussein anymore....

[PurePower]

*shakes head* how can you support a man who is taking your freedom away. I would rather have a president getting his dick sucked than a president taking my freedom away...maybe thats just me.

dont let college pollute my mind? wtf is that. i make my own choices, and everything i do, say, act, believe in you better believe I have thought long and hard about. and im not just saying that. I actually give it deep contemplation...more than most do.

dont let an idiot who never worked for anything in his life corrupt your mind...even if he calls himself a republican.

Well he is doing a ****ed good job to me and the Americans that are going to VOTE him back into office

[symatech]

Thats a good thread. I cant help but to assume that this thread is trying to compare Vietnam to Iraq. I mean it is just an assumption unless for some reason you felt delighted to just post a thread with war history.

Id like to ask you to compare Iraq to Vietnam. Since there are almost NO SIMILARITIES, other than the fact that US troops were engaged in conflict overseas, I dont see how this thread can relate.

hmm ok lets see

1)fighting a war that is not really a 'war' and on false premises

2)we are once again fighting people who actually believe in what they are doing...

3)we are fighting for our own benefit; none other. in vietnam to stop communism (which was NONE of our business) and to reep the benefits of $$ from opium in Iraq, to get oil and re-elect a moron...who the hell are we to kill people so we can have cheaper gas and a fool in an oval office?

4)the pretenses for going to war were greatly exaggerated. no wmd, no real threat from communism.

5)we do not have the necessary number of troops to 'win' in vietnam they kept sending more and more....what do you think is happening in iraq?

i hope you dont think that they dont compare simply becaues we arent in asia and fighting the vc with outdated m16 rifles....

[symatech]

Well he is doing a ****ed good job to me and the Americans that are going to VOTE him back into office

doing a good job by taking your freedom? please validate that. if he were a democrat you;d be burning him at the stake.

why do people defend idiots simply based on party. Political parties are worthless, they mean NOTHING. why dont people know this.

vote him back in? yeah, just like the people that voted him in the first place...


worry about sadam??? holy **** open your eyes you never worried about him until bush said so. think for yourself. tell me how sadam has kept you up at night...with his mythical wmd, and his inability to harm ANY of us. this is undebatable, quite simply, sadam had no reach on the US

[bermich]

*shakes head* how can you support a man who is taking your freedom away. I would rather have a president getting his dick sucked than a president taking my freedom away...maybe thats just me.

dont let college pollute my mind? wtf is that. i make my own choices, and everything i do, say, act, believe in you better believe I have thought long and hard about. and im not just saying that. I actually give it deep contemplation...more than most do.

dont let an idiot who never worked for anything in his life corrupt your mind...even if he calls himself a republican.

Oh yeah, just banging an intern is no big deal. Thats a great way to run a country. Letting some whore secretary over hear classified material while she sucks your dick as you talk on the phone. Get real with your COMPARISONS. There is no way to compare any president to the next.

Id say just put it to rest and vote but even then, democrats say the voting was unfair. Either way, something is unfair.

[symatech]

so bermich. you would rather live in a land with less freedoms than live in a land where a man cheats on his wife....well i guess thats where we differ.

"those who would sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither freedom or safety"

edit:get real with MY comparrisons? please, we all know that that whore of a sec. never heard any classified info while givin him head. despite my non party affiliation, i will say this. and i in NO MEANS AM REFERRING TO ANYBODY ON THIS BOARD IN PARTICULAR.

on the whole:democrats bitch a lot about things but often times lack the gaul to change them

Republicans: are more immature than dem. but get things done. When things dont go their way they more often raise their voices and make stupid arguments thinking they are really showing their competitor up....

green party: well they dont do much at all.

this has been from years of observing many differnt people from diff parties. I have spent long hours in the capitol building at DC and here in Austin. I have sat in on countless hours of debate. the above is from reality, i have seen it all. not just my opinion. i have experience to back this.

im going to bed

[bermich]

hmm ok lets see

1)fighting a war that is not really a 'war' and on false premises

2)we are once again fighting people who actually believe in what they are doing...

3)we are fighting for our own benefit; none other. in vietnam to stop communism (which was NONE of our business) and to reep the benefits of $$ from opium in Iraq, to get oil and re-elect a moron...who the hell are we to kill people so we can have cheaper gas and a fool in an oval office?

4)the pretenses for going to war were greatly exaggerated. no wmd, no real threat from communism.

5)we do not have the necessary number of troops to 'win' in vietnam they kept sending more and more....what do you think is happening in iraq?

i hope you dont think that they dont compare simply becaues we arent in asia and fighting the vc with outdated m16 rifles....

What did you compare? That is YOUR own assumption of IRAQ and the CNN media.
We dont have enough TROOPS? DUDE, the WAR is over. IRAQ has NO military.
How many more troops are needed to fight suicide bombers??
Of course we are fighting for OUR benifit. I find OUR BENIFIT JUST CAUSE. to fight.
90 percent of the IRAQis are happy there leader is gone.

You say fighting a war that is not REALLY A WAR. You are contradicting yorself.
If it is not really a war then like I said, you cant compare it to Vietnam.

We lost hundreds of thousands of troops over so many years in vietnam. We lost 100 in Iraq in 6 months.

You seem to leave out all the pieces that dont fit in your evaluation

[bermich]

so bermich. you would rather live in a land with less freedoms than live in a land where a man cheats on his wife....well i guess thats where we differ.

"those who would sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither freedom or safety"

im going to bed

Yes I would. Clinton let Bin ladden go several times. If I lived in NY and lost someone I loved and knew it could have been prevented but wasnt because Clinton was too busy getting his dick sucked, I would be furious. Im not even gonna turn this thread into CLINTON vs BUSH. There are other threads going on with that.

Freedom for safety?? When is freedom without a price? You think freedom just comes to those hit sit by idol and dont bother anyone??? Freedom has to be fought for.


I dont approve of the patriot act and do think Bush is pushing his power trip a little far, but he will get what needs to be done done. Maybe a little extreme but it is temporary.

[PurePower]

Some people just dont get it.

[PurePower]

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom go from us in peace, we ask not your counsels or arms."




.

[Animal Cracker]

One lesson from Vietnam not listed: If it looks like the enemy, talks like the enemy-without a doubt, it is the enemy.

[bermich]

worry about sadam??? holy **** open your eyes you never worried about him until bush said so. think for yourself. tell me how sadam has kept you up at night...with his mythical wmd, and his inability to harm ANY of us. this is undebatable, quite simply, sadam had no reach on the US

Thats the SAME EXACT THING the clinton advisors said about BIN LADDEN.
How is BIN LADDEN gonna hurt the US when he is way over there. He has no military. WAKE UP to modern times. Saddam had the resources to do plenty of damage to us. Should we keep him in power and wait til he pays 1 billion dollars to buy a plane and ram it into our building just so people can say HE IS A DANGER??
Its called preventive threat. See. People like you who post this crap are the ones who cant see ahead of today. If it hasnt happened then you feel everything is ok. Then once it happens you blame it on someone and why that person didnt do a thing to stop it. Either way you will complain.

[PurePower]

Bermich you are wasting your breath bro...........they cannot hear what they dont want to hear.


saddam is a MADMAN he is/was an UNPREDICTABLE,INSANE,TYRANT. He had to be taken out. If he had the chance he would blow the USA to hell with chemical, biological, even NUCLEAR weapons if he would have had the chance.

[bermich]

Bermich you are wasting your breath bro...........they cannot hear what they dont want to hear.


saddam is a MADMAN he is/was an UNPREDICTABLE,INSANE,TYRANT. He had to be taken out. If he had the chance he would blow the USA to hell with chemical, biological, even NUCLEAR weapons if he would have had the chance.

I know. Politics is like religion. You cant change or convert, but you cant avoid debating your point of view. I hate how it sucks me in cause I am not a person who likes to argue. I hate it actually.

Point is: Iraq and vietnam is not comparible. There is NOTHING comparible except the fact that we invaded another country to eliminate a threat.
Whether the threat be justified or not, that is the ONLY thing comparible

Cant compare number of troops, casualties, time of war, money spent, support, mission results, mission success, territory aquired.

Sure you can compare it morally, but not based on FACT.
Sure some did not feel it was right to be there. That is not fact.
You can not compare opinion with fact.
Post a thread with numbers.

As far as Saddam. He is gone. We are there. Get over it and wait til a demo gets in office. For now, it is a republican game and another 4 years of middle east conquest to make America stronger to help other countries.
You either support the US or you get bombed.

For a country only 200 years old, we should be proud of our power,not try to supress it. Accumilating the BIGGEST BADDEST MILITARY in the world in just 200 years from NOTHING is something to brag about. Might as well make us of it.

[BOUNCER]

Berm I don't think he's making a direct comparison between Vietnam and Iraq because as you say there's hardly any similarities, even taking into account that in the US's first yr in Iraq you've lost more troops than the first yr in Vietnam. However I don't think your going to suffer 55,000 dead in Iraq or even close to it. But with only 30,000 frontline troops the US can become combat ineffective much quicker, logs troops don't make up for a lack of frontline soldiers. You said in another thread your not fighting a frontline war, but you don't have the benefit of speaking with experience of war. So with so few troops on the ground in Iraq (and don't forget your large commitment to Afghanistan) the US should be learning from the 11 lessions listed (sadly not learned) above). But in reality I think there are far too many issues for the US to win hearts and minds in Iraq and anyother M.E. country, inwhich case you (the US) can only continue to be seen as an occupying force. You can't occupy Iraq forever and your withdrawal, no matter under what circumstances, will be seen as a military defeat.
Somalia is a good example, America has never been given the credit for bringing a famine to a stop and saving countless millions of lives, instead it made a military withdrawal after losing some bodies and the whole thing was unfortunetely seen as a military defeat. Beirut 1984 was the same, America went in with a multi-national force with the best of intentions and withdrew after the embassey bombing.
All I'm saying is that you can't use military might alone to win a war. As for 4 more yrs of US domination in the M.E... Buddy 4 yrs is absolutely nothing and the terrorists there have lot more time invested than that and have the luxury of being able to sit and wait for the west to show its soft belly..

I think what should happen is to bring both the M.E. population and Europe onto America's side. Europe is far too soft on Muslims and that frightens me. I'm 100% behind America, but the dogs on the streets can see the flaws in its tactics.

Free oil Bermich!, come on buddy you can't be that shallow. Your not the one over there losing your comrades and risking life so someone in the US can have free oil. Most likely its another 4 more free yrs in the white house for Bush paid with in American blood.

[bermich]

No. I dont believe in the oil thing. I just get tired of hearing that that is the only reason we are there when it isnt.
Withdrawing our forces would be a DEFEAT?? HARDLY. We succeeded. We got Saddam out of power. How is that a DEFEAT??? Since our claims for being there WMD are counter acted by defeating Saddam, we still won.
The other thread with front line troops. Troops are not needed. Peace keeping officails and such are needed. Im not educated on post war strategies such as how to set up a new government so I cant get into that. Im saying we dont need that many troops over there to fight off daily sabotauge. There will ALWAYS be groups acting up til the end of time. ISREAL is an example.
Just because someone doesnt have the experience of fighting a war doesnt mean he is not capable of comprehending the strategies of war. If that were true, then half our presidents would be screwed. My whole family comes from the military. My brother was the FIRST TEAM into Afghanistan. THE FIRST aside from CIA intelligence.

And this thread is comparing vietnam to iraq. Why bring up vietnam lessons if not trying to compare? Why not state 11 lessons of the US civil war to learn from?
How many US troops died in IRAQ this year since we have only been there for under a year? I honestly dont know and thought it was under 200.
I thought in the first year of Vietnam, thousands of US troops died.

I honestly dont think Bushs main concern is the oil. I truely feel he is trying to keep america safe. From day one he planned on invading Iraq. So what. At least he had an agenda and kept to it and got it done. PROPS....
America has oil. We have Alaska, Texas, Bakersfield CA. Im sure Iraq sells it to us cheap and why not. We spent billions to take it away from a dictator. Reinbursment.
So: All those BLOOD FOR OIL banners really do piss me off.
AMERCIA will ALWAYS have a US pressence in IRAQ. There is no reason for us to pull ALL of our forces away and out of IRAQ.

[KrashRoute]

I dont see bush gettin reelected at all. If he does I dont see him staying there...hell fall to impeachment or assasination. Im vary anti politics. Im not overly human. I know the quality of life I enjoy here take unnecessary resources away from others, and exploits many people. On the same note...I cant help this and am very into hard science. I say survival of the fittest. Theres already too many people in this worls, natural resources can only sustain so much. We ruin land and drive animals into extincetion. Esp through the by products or all out luxury manufacturing. One way to set a mark would of been to bomb the **** out of the families and/or home town of every terroist in 9/11. In the biggest way possible that wouldnt spread a cloud. Kinda mean but I feel the us is kind of a pussy when it comes down to it. I mean I love it here but the politicians and upper crust are far from a representation of the majority. War is war.. you kill everything thats how it works. Just seems "humane" war never works.

[Terinox]

The following is all just my opinion, speaking off the top of my head...

In terms of "THIS" war, the U.S. had no viable reason to invade IRAQ they way they did. First they attacked Afghanistan, doing it basically as retalliation. That got them nothing, Bin Laden was suddenly just discarded, and they needed another scapegoat for staying in the ME. So they go and attack IRAQ.

They went in with false info, and they fed that WMD bull**** to the PEOPLE so that they had an excuse. Once they got in there, saw there was no WMD, they decide to overthrow the government, and give it to the "so called people." What gives any country the right to go and overthrow a government of another country just because they want to? Almost everyone now knows it was all about oil and power, and they are just trying to justify their attacks, and the killings of thousands of civilian Iraqi's.

Do you see Germany or Italy or England or even Canada sending a bunch of military into the U.S. and saying "we don't like the way you running the place, so **** off?" NO, they don't, now why is that? Simply because they can't. If U.S. was a small and weak country, then yeah, people would come in and try to take over their society.

What the U.S. is doing is not much different from what England did with their colonizations of 3rd world countries way back when. They went in, killed a ton of people, stole their goods, and claimed it was for their countries good. And where are most of those countries now? African countries which that happened to are doing terrible, and same with the ME.

The U.S. is just flexing it's muscle. They have TONS of military, and MORE weapons than all the **** countries in the world combined. God only knows how many nuke's the US really has. So why is that okay?!? They pay billions of dollars for military, and obviously they can't just sit around and do nothing, so by sending them around the world it's an excuse for using tax payers money. And Bush, he's a terrible president. He goes into Iraq with no just cause, and then, he REALLY starts to take it too far. He threatens to invade Syria, and Iran, and other ME countries. First Iraq had WMD, and now, they think Iran has them?! WTF is wrong with his brain?! He is trying to find excuses to stay in the ME longer. God knows when Iraq will turn truly to the people. In 10 years, Iraq is gonna be nothing but one giant McDonald's and Starbucks, because that's ALL it's about, making MONEY!

How is it, when good presidents come along, Lincoln, JFK, they suddenly get assassinated?! Oh, it's just random and coincidence?! The American "high power" people (the rich and powerful) can't stand what's good, they just want more, and are very greedy. Here comes along JFK, and they kill him, why? Cuz he represented good things and had good ideas. How can a government kill it's own president just because he's A GOOD one?!?!

Well that's it for me, time to go to school. Take the above as you will. Hell, flame away.

[tryingtogetbig]

I won't even get started on this....

All I will say is "If 9/11 had to happen, Thank God that Bush was in the Whitehouse when it did."

Everyone can second guess, criticize, and call the US (or just Bush, either way) bad names....but it doesn't change the facts. We OWN Afghanistan. We OWN Iraq. We have NOT been attacked since. And YES, America is shedding some blood in this war on terror, but nowhere near the numbers we lost in one day on September 11. A majority of the citizens in the US still support and will continue to support the efforts going on in the Middle East no matter how many tree huggers or foreign countries continue to cry about it. That's how diplomcay works. Majority rules. Argue with those facts.

P.S. Bush has not taken away 1 dam freedom from you. Yes, you have to do more at the airport. Big f'ing deal. Be happy the airlines are even still in business. Without Bush's efforts they would not be. Getting on an airplane is not a "Right"...it's a "privilege."

peace,

ttgb

[tryingtogetbig]

Some people are really showing lack of knowledge also in this thread.

Iraq, namely Saddam, had been violating UN sanctions for more than 10 years. Quit trying to feel sorry for a tyrant that was thumbing it's nose at the world.

At least show some form of knowledge about a subject before denouncing something so bad everyone.

And the republicans are suppose to be the one's not able to "see all of the facts"???

peace,

ttgb

[Dude-Man]

All i know is that this preventative measures bull is exactly that. If any person in the united states that had a gun wanted to, he could kill hundreds of people. Any person on an airplane could hijack it and fly it into a tower. Does that mean you stop all flights? Does that mean you outlaw the sale of guns or kill everyone that has one? Do we pass more strict gun control laws and severely limit the number of firearms sold? Hell no, because that's against your republican ideals. If you're going to allow one preventative measure, don't go bitching when another doesn't suit your fancy. We could've removed sadaam from power without destroying his country, and punished him for violating the UN resolutions. Instead we went for "shock and awe" and cost both us and the iraqis billions, all so bush could have his friends get the contracts to rebuild and take the american people's focus off of important domestic issues.

Do none of you republicans care that half of america doesn't have health care? Do you not care that bush passes tax cuts for the wealthiest 1%? Do none of you care that while profits have risen, the number of jobs hasn't?

[Terinox]

All i know is that this preventative measures bull is exactly that. If any person in the united states that had a gun wanted to, he could kill hundreds of people. Any person on an airplane could hijack it and fly it into a tower. Does that mean you stop all flights? Does that mean you outlaw the sale of guns or kill everyone that has one? Do we pass more strict gun control laws and severely limit the number of firearms sold? Hell no, because that's against your republican ideals. If you're going to allow one preventative measure, don't go bitching when another doesn't suit your fancy. We could've removed sadaam from power without destroying his country, and punished him for violating the UN resolutions. Instead we went for "shock and awe" and cost both us and the iraqis billions, all so bush could have his friends get the contracts to rebuild and take the american people's focus off of important domestic issues.

Do none of you republicans care that half of america doesn't have health care? Do you not care that bush passes tax cuts for the wealthiest 1%? Do none of you care that while profits have risen, the number of jobs hasn't?

I totally agree that the whole Iraq situation could have at least been handled much better. Could have been controlled, and not have gone in with guns blarring. Issues back home seem to be more important right now, and it's THOSE things (health care, education) they should be concentrating on.

[tryingtogetbig]

All i know is that this preventative measures bull is exactly that. If any person in the united states that had a gun wanted to, he could kill hundreds of people. Any person on an airplane could hijack it and fly it into a tower. Does that mean you stop all flights? Does that mean you outlaw the sale of guns or kill everyone that has one? Do we pass more strict gun control laws and severely limit the number of firearms sold? Hell no, because that's against your republican ideals. If you're going to allow one preventative measure, don't go bitching when another doesn't suit your fancy. We could've removed sadaam from power without destroying his country, and punished him for violating the UN resolutions. Instead we went for "shock and awe" and cost both us and the iraqis billions, all so bush could have his friends get the contracts to rebuild and take the american people's focus off of important domestic issues.

Several issues here:

1. I can defend myself against someone with a gun, but not against a frigging boeing 747. Come on, that is just common sense.

2. 1/2 Americans don't have health insurance. First off, that is not an accurate number at all....use actual numbers if you are gonna use any facts. Secondly, those that are without health insurance need to get their ass to work and get it.

3. The domestic issues you mention are still there. Economy up, senior citizen prescription program passed, taxes down, etc, etc, etc. Like or not, Bush has been very busy getting lots of things passed that Clinton could not.

Again, I respect you not believing the same as I do, but please use some accurate information. Everything is not "black or white."

Regarding terrorism and the Middle East, there is no way everyone will ever agree on this topic. Let me give everyone a hint, both Republican and Democrats and other countries....NO ONE KNOWS OR KNEW THE RIGHT WAY OF ALL WAYS TO HANDLE THE GLOBAL PRESSENCE OF TERRORISM. At least something is being attempted to rid the world of bad people. You may not completely agree...but at least Bush is trying. Can you not even acknowledge that?

peace,

ttgb

[Red Ketchup]

To those who say "the war is over in Irak and Afghanistan", go say it to the families of the soldiers who are dying EVERY DAY over there. They might disagree.

The war may be over "politically" but in real life, on the ground over there, it's still a warzone... your and my people are dying.

Red

[Phillyboy1]

all im saying in this thread is, bush is the biggest idiot i think ive ever met or seen in my life. i would honestly love to see his IQ score. i saw him get asked questions about wmd's and he talked around it. they asked him 5 times, and kept saying you havent answered our question. and 5 times he gave them a answer that had nothing to do with the question asked. he needs to just realize he's a idiot, and should step down from office. its like having the dumbest kid that got picked on in school now become that capt of the football team at gym and he gets to pick his team. he doesnt have the slightest clue!

and yes the war is nowhere over in iraq. suicide bombers will never give up. and after a while us here at home are gonna finally get tired of our soilders dying. we'll bring them home, and the M.E. will have a feild day saying they won, the US is leaving

[tryingtogetbig]

all im saying in this thread is, bush is the biggest idiot i think ive ever met or seen in my life. i would honestly love to see his IQ score. i saw him get asked questions about wmd's and he talked around it. they asked him 5 times, and kept saying you havent answered our question. and 5 times he gave them a answer that had nothing to do with the question asked. he needs to just realize he's a idiot, and should step down from office. its like having the dumbest kid that got picked on in school now become that capt of the football team at gym and he gets to pick his team. he doesnt have the slightest clue!

and yes the war is nowhere over in iraq. suicide bombers will never give up. and after a while us here at home are gonna finally get tired of our soilders dying. we'll bring them home, and the M.E. will have a feild day saying they won, the US is leaving

Exactly how long have you been around or listened to politicians, lawyers, reporters, car salesman, etc ?????? They NEVER answer a question bro! Wow...your reply really surprises me.

Remember this "did you have sex with Monica Lewinski?" Answer "I did not have sexual relations with her." Yeah...Right!!

peace,

ttgb

[JGK]

Or how about...

"It depends on what your definition of is is"

Just face it, all politicians are power hungry crooks. They wouldn't become politicians if they didn't crave power. Think that any of them actually have your best interest in mind? Better think again.

[jeffylyte]

ok, I won't get into the politics of this other than to say all politicians need to be kilt! other than that I need to correct a few errors in fact.

1) there were not hundreds of thousands of troops killed in vietnam, it was about 60,000 and officially over an 8 year period.
2) officially it was over an eight year period, but in reality it was much longer. we were there in '57 with CIA and military "advisers" and by '63 there were 16,000 "advisers". officially the gulf of tonkin resolution in 1965 provided impetus to put regulars into vietnam and this is where the Official conflict begins. we pulled out in 1973. [as a note my father was there in '64 and then again in '65 or '66, i don't remember when.3
3) technically none of these are "wars" per se, but conflicts. no act or articles of war have been produced.
4) while many may blame clinton for not doin anything about osama. remember on multiple occasions he tried to kill bin laden by shooting missles at him.
5) remember that for an entire year, bush did not do anything about osama bin laden. he didnt even shoot missles at him like clinton did. It wasnt until after 9/11 that he acted. any president would go after him then... even al gore. we need to remember there was not the political will to stage a large scale attack on osama or sadam before 9/11.

again, this response is not meant as a political point, just clearing up some issues.

[tryingtogetbig]

That's how to post true information!! Accurate and unbiased!

Good post Jefflyye!

peace,

ttgb

[symatech]

Or how about...

"It depends on what your definition of is is"

Just face it, all politicians are power hungry crooks. They wouldn't become politicians if they didn't crave power. Think that any of them actually have your best interest in mind? Better think again.

a good point. sad but true.

We OWN Afghanistan. We OWN Iraq. We have NOT been attacked since........Bush has not taken away 1 dam freedom from you

Ok, it's time to address this point. How long before 9/11 since we had an attack? anybody remember? it was the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. so 8 years had passed. and now people say "its been been 2 years since we've had an attack Bush has saved us." cmon...Like bouncer said Bin laden and other terrorists invest years and years of effort into their work. If they want to hit us they will. how can you, after only 2 years, claim that bush has stopped anything?

Now, Bush has not taken 1 dam freedom from me? Have you heard of the patriot act? do you know what it can do? You do realize that YOU can be held in federal prision INDEFINATELY without trial or notification to ANYBODY!? this doesnt piss you off? how can you as a lover of freedom support bush? because he appeals to the mob? mob mentality is very foolish and dangerous.

In case you all have forgotten the Bill of Rights I'll let you know what your 6th amendment WAS.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense

Oh yeah bush isnt taking our freedom....Just shave a little off the constitution and he's right on!!

[symatech]

That's how to post true information!! Accurate and unbiased!

Good post Jefflyye!

peace,

ttgb

I agree. Excelent post Jeff