Still need more gains, What do you think?

**john230481** · 05-28-2004, 12:12 PM

Hey bro's

Just finished my recent cycle, gained about 14 pounds, the cycle was -

1-4 Dbol 30mg e/d
1-12 Sust 250mg E3D
1-12 Deca 150mg E3D
Nolv Throughout
Clomid as usual PCT

Didn't get any further gains after week 8. Still looking for another 7 or 8 pounds.

I'm now looking at my next cycle, i'm thinking of maybe increasing the Dbol to 40mg E/D for weeks 1-4 and using test e at 250mg EOD. Would this give me the extra gains I need. I'm going to give my body a few months off the gear first though.

Your advice wouyld be muchly appreciated, or if anyone thinks i should add something to this new cycle, please let me know.

6ft 2in, 200lbs.

**Crankin'steiN** · 05-28-2004, 12:19 PM

cycle history would have been nice.... but I'll work with what I have....

You can try putting the d-bol to 40mg ED, I suggest splitting them up throughout the day.

Try the sust at day 2, 5 and 7. Just don't want your dosages to jump up there too fast. Even better would be enth at 600mg a week.....

You may want to try EQ as some people prefer it to deca ..... If you go EQ run 500mg a week.

Now.... the nolva. Why did you run Nolva throughout your cycle. Usually I recommend having it on hand but not running it until signs of gyno show up.... If they don't then you don't run it. The reason for this is the fact that the extra water retention and estrogen can actually be benificial to your gains..... More water = more weight = more displacement = more strength = more muscle gains..... So unless you are prone to getting gyno (and know it will be a problem) then wait until you get symptoms before running it. If you do get symptoms, run it at 50mg until the symptoms subside, then run it at 20mg the rest of the cycle.

Hope this helps.

**Russ616** · 05-28-2004, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Crankin'steiN

cycle history would have been nice.... but I'll work with what I have....

You can try putting the d-bol to 40mg ED, I suggest splitting them up throughout the day.

Try the sust at day 2, 5 and 7. Just don't want your dosages to jump up there too fast. Even better would be enth at 600mg a week.....

You may want to try EQ as some people prefer it to deca ..... If you go EQ run 500mg a week.

Now.... the nolva. Why did you run Nolva throughout your cycle. Usually I recommend having it on hand but not running it until signs of gyno show up.... If they don't then you don't run it. The reason for this is the fact that the extra water retention and estrogen can actually be benificial to your gains..... More water = more weight = more displacement = more strength = more muscle gains..... So unless you are prone to getting gyno (and know it will be a problem) then wait until you get symptoms before running it. If you do get symptoms, run it at 50mg until the symptoms subside, then run it at 20mg the rest of the cycle.

Hope this helps.

I would have to disagree and say always run the nolva at a small dose of 10mgs throughout the cycle. It is to your benifit to run it, it is not going to cut down on gains....As for gaining only 14lbs thats not that bad, check your diet. Remember you are what you eat...

**Crankin'steiN** · 05-28-2004, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Russ616

I would have to disagree and say always run the nolva at a small dose of 10mgs throughout the cycle. It is to your benifit to run it, it is not going to cut down on gains....As for gaining only 14lbs thats not that bad, check your diet. Remember you are what you eat...

Please explain what benifit you think he is getting from a dosage of 10mg of nolva??

Also, explain why you think that it will not affect gains at all..... Do you not agree with this >>> More water = more weight = more displacement = more strength = more muscle gains
If not, please tell me why.

**Russ616** · 05-28-2004, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Crankin'steiN

Please explain what benifit you think he is getting from a dosage of 10mg of nolva??

Also, explain why you think that it will not affect gains at all..... Do you not agree with this >>> More water = more weight = more displacement = more strength = more muscle gains
If not, please tell me why.

Water is not muscle. It is simply not worth the chance of gyno so why not take 10mgs of nolva throughout your cycle. Even if he wants more weight that doesn't mean water. He wants muscle. Give me a second and I will post the scientific reason for taking nolva and l-dex throughout the cycle...

**Russ616** · 05-28-2004, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Russ616

Water is not muscle. It is simply not worth the chance of gyno so why not take 10mgs of nolva throughout your cycle. Even if he wants more weight that doesn't mean water. He wants muscle. Give me a second and I will post the scientific reason for taking nolva and l-dex throughout the cycle...

Running both l-dex and nolva- Liquidex doesn't hinder gains, HOWEVER, it does affect your lipids. Running Nolvadex in conjunction with Liquidex makes for an excellent combination, where Nolva counters the negative sides with L-dex. Nolva blocks the estrogenic receptor, while L-dex prevents the AAS in your system from aromatizing into estrogen. Nolva also acts as a synthetic estrogen as well, so you're not going to hinder gains by taking Nolva either. Nolva helps make sure you have enough estrogen in your system for proper bodily function, while also making sure you don't uptake too much estrogen. (by blocking the receptor) If you ran Nolva alone, you run the risk of a estrogen rebound, and you can get gyno post-cycle once you've stopped administering AAS and have finished your PCT. Running both covers all your bases, unless you're also running a progesterone-based steroid , like Fina, Deca , or Anadrol . In that case, you'd either want to run Bromo or Vitamin B6.
At 10mg of nolva and .25mg of Ldex you aren't ridding your body of estrogen....you're simply limiting it and its effects. In addition, nolva will still maintain many of the estrogenic positive effects...... even in the absence of estrogen, which isn't likely to happen anywhere near these doses.

**Matto20** · 05-28-2004, 12:47 PM

good call, russ.

and CHECK THAT DIET. if you're not gaining enough weight, you're not eating enough. its that simple.

**cpt steele** · 05-28-2004, 12:47 PM

It sounds to me bro you need more calsWhen I bulk I start at about 4200 and end at about 6k. Granted its relative to what your weight is to begin with but I think you get the idea

**Crankin'steiN** · 05-28-2004, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Russ616

Water is not muscle. It is simply not worth the chance of gyno so why not take 10mgs of nolva throughout your cycle. Even if he wants more weight that doesn't mean water. He wants muscle. Give me a second and I will post the scientific reason for taking nolva and l-dex throughout the cycle...

I'm not saying water will turn into muscle directly.... I'm saying it may help increase strength which should lead to more muscle gains......

Of course he would rather gain muscle not water... But I am saying that it will indirectly lead to muscle gains...

I will come back to read your article...

**Russ616** · 05-28-2004, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Crankin'steiN

I'm not saying water will turn into muscle directly.... I'm saying it may help increase strength which should lead to more muscle gains......

Of course he would rather gain muscle not water... But I am saying that it will indirectly lead to muscle gains...

I will come back to read your article...

Well I agree that some may agree that more water means more weight which means more strength which means more muscle but I don't agree... I think that the lifts may be done more comfortable, less waters is always bad for joints and what not but I would rather look less bloated thatn weigh 3lbs more and looked all bloated. Just my opinion....

**Crankin'steiN** · 05-28-2004, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Russ616

Running both l-dex and nolva- Liquidex doesn't hinder gains, HOWEVER, it does affect your lipids. Running Nolvadex in conjunction with Liquidex makes for an excellent combination, where Nolva counters the negative sides with L-dex. Nolva blocks the estrogenic receptor, while L-dex prevents the AAS in your system from aromatizing into estrogen. Nolva also acts as a synthetic estrogen as well, so you're not going to hinder gains by taking Nolva either. Nolva helps make sure you have enough estrogen in your system for proper bodily function, while also making sure you don't uptake too much estrogen. (by blocking the receptor) If you ran Nolva alone, you run the risk of a estrogen rebound, and you can get gyno post-cycle once you've stopped administering AAS and have finished your PCT. Running both covers all your bases, unless you're also running a progesterone-based steroid , like Fina, Deca , or Anadrol . In that case, you'd either want to run Bromo or Vitamin B6.
At 10mg of nolva and .25mg of Ldex you aren't ridding your body of estrogen....you're simply limiting it and its effects. In addition, nolva will still maintain many of the estrogenic positive effects...... even in the absence of estrogen, which isn't likely to happen anywhere near these doses.

I know all about what nolva and l-dex do, and how they effect your lipids.... This study doesn't really prove your point tho..... To be safe against gyno, sure run both.... I'm just saying that lots of people will run none because they do wish to retain some water for the reason I stated.

We both have our opinions on it.... So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

**Russ616** · 05-28-2004, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Russ616

Running both l-dex and nolva- Liquidex doesn't hinder gains, HOWEVER, it does affect your lipids. Running Nolvadex in conjunction with Liquidex makes for an excellent combination, where Nolva counters the negative sides with L-dex. Nolva blocks the estrogenic receptor, while L-dex prevents the AAS in your system from aromatizing into estrogen. Nolva also acts as a synthetic estrogen as well, so you're not going to hinder gains by taking Nolva either. Nolva helps make sure you have enough estrogen in your system for proper bodily function, while also making sure you don't uptake too much estrogen. (by blocking the receptor) If you ran Nolva alone, you run the risk of a estrogen rebound, and you can get gyno post-cycle once you've stopped administering AAS and have finished your PCT. Running both covers all your bases, unless you're also running a progesterone-based steroid , like Fina, Deca , or Anadrol . In that case, you'd either want to run Bromo or Vitamin B6.
At 10mg of nolva and .25mg of Ldex you aren't ridding your body of estrogen....you're simply limiting it and its effects. In addition, nolva will still maintain many of the estrogenic positive effects...... even in the absence of estrogen, which isn't likely to happen anywhere near these doses.

as far as running it with pct....

Also, another thing to note in including L-dex is the effect it has on Nolva. Nolva and Clomid are both SERMs, but are selctive in which ERs they bind to. Clomid is selective to suprapituitary, and Nolva is selective to breast, bone, and liver. With an AI addition, you inhibit estrogen converison, which in turn allows Nolva to work stronger as a secondary stimulator for LH next to clomid; this making recovery faster.(It still has this effect without the AI, just not to the same extent). With Clomid/Nolva without the AI, Nolva is primarly being used to prevent binding of excess estrogen produced post cycle.
by pheedno

**Crankin'steiN** · 05-28-2004, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Russ616

Well I agree that some may agree that more water means more weight which means more strength which means more muscle but I don't agree... I think that the lifts may be done more comfortable, less waters is always bad for joints and what not but I would rather look less bloated thatn weigh 3lbs more and looked all bloated. Just my opinion....

You'll hold much more water then just 3 pounds..... If your not prone to gyno, you should just give my way a try and see how strong you get and what kind of gains you get....

And in the winter do you really care about looking bloated?? I don't.... I go all out for the most gains I can achieve...

**Lozgod** · 05-28-2004, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Crankin'steiN

I know all about what nolva and l-dex do, and how they effect your lipids.... This study doesn't really prove your point tho..... To be safe against gyno, sure run both.... I'm just saying that lots of people will run none because they do wish to retain some water for the reason I stated.

We both have our opinions on it.... So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Me personally, I never used anti-E's before but I am definetly on this cycle, because I am not interested in gaining water weight. I am looking for solid muscle gains. Opinions on AAS use change frequently. Two years ago pyramiding was the norm, now it isn't recommended. Twenty years ago people were doing 8 week cycles of Dbol only prescribed by their family doctor, and recently the correct Anti-E's and ways to use them are a hot topic. I made a decision to use 10mg of Nolvadex and 50mg of Proviron a day for my next cycle.