HCG instead of clomid?

**Drummerboy** · 06-05-2004, 10:08 AM

i was told recently by an advanced builder that HCG can be used very effectively for PCT, using 1000iu first day, and 500iu ED for 10 more days... using 10-20mg of Nolva ED also.... said clomid is no longer needed... any input?

**UrbanLegend** · 06-05-2004, 10:10 AM

No. Go to the PCT forum and read up there.

**simplecanibus** · 06-05-2004, 10:17 AM

everybody on here recommends clomid, and i totally am convinced clomid is necesarry pct, but there's been a lot of threads written how nolva is far superior to clomid. are there any threads abolishing this myth?

**UrbanLegend** · 06-05-2004, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by simplecanibus

everybody on here recommends clomid, and i totally am convinced clomid is necesarry pct, but there's been a lot of threads written how nolva is far superior to clomid. are there any threads abolishing this myth?

There is some research that goes both ways. IMO good PCT includes both. For more information, go the PCT forum.

**Lozgod** · 06-05-2004, 10:27 AM

Yeah there is a forum for this. This is getting out of hand every question being asked here. It is set up the way it is for a reason.

**Drummerboy** · 07-22-2005, 11:53 AM

Ive been reading that some ppl use hcg , in higher doses, in the beginning of thier PCT... then using clomid and nolva after... i use hcg throughout cycle at 500iu E4D... the debate on clomid no longer being useful is in a lot of threads, and nolva being its replacement... what i would like to know is this : does anyone have experience doing different PCT than the norm, and what happened? Mods, if you read this, please move to PCT forum thank you

**stayinstacked** · 07-22-2005, 11:57 AM

I ran my HCG for 10 days at 500 iu/day followed by 2 weeks of clomid at 50mg/day, ran nolva throughout at 20mg a day and my test levels came back reletively fast. HCG is far superior to clomid IMO.

**anabolicbruce** · 07-22-2005, 11:59 AM

Anyone use teslac ? Im going to use it for my pct, got a script for it and clomid.

**Drummerboy** · 07-22-2005, 12:05 PM

Thnx for the reply... Now, hcg is supposed to act as LH, which is released by a gland to tell the testes to get workin. clomid is supposed to stimulate that gland to do this. The debate is this : use hcg while on cycle to prevent shrinkage, or use in higher doses, after cycle, to reverse shrinkage that will occure. And, does nolva stimulate this gland as well or better than clomid to get it pumping out LH again? There is much debate on this, but not really much proof.... here is a thread talking of Nolva's ability to block the de-sensitizing effects of HCG... im guessing that you can run it longer when you use nolva with your cycle? Im curious here... i like to reduce the number of compounds i use for a complete cycle with all meds....

RA · 07-22-2005, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Drummerboy

i was told recently by an advanced builder that HCG can be used very effectively for PCT, using 1000iu first day, and 500iu ED for 10 more days... using 10-20mg of Nolva ED also.... said clomid is no longer needed... any input?

HCG just delays the crash, it does not prevent it.

**Drummerboy** · 07-22-2005, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by roidattack

HCG just delays the crash, it does not prevent it.

HCG is supposed to prevent testicular atrophy, then clomid (or nolva???) is supposed to kickstart the HPTA... the advantage is your boys dont have to grow back, so they can get back to work a lot quicker... the question is, again, does nolva do the job clomid does, at about 20-30 mg/day (kickstart the HPTA)?? I already know what HCG does... it acts as LH while your HPTA is suppressed, and should not be used with clomid, but in PREPARATION for clomid (or nolva??) Does anyone have straight answers???? Theres a big article by BigCat on BodyBuilding.com, i will get the link.... there are many ppl out there who no longer use clomid... just HCG (pre-PCT or during cycle, like me), nolva, and ldex (or some aromatase inhibitor)...

**Drummerboy** · 07-22-2005, 04:15 PM

here is the link for some info on Nolva and HCG . Nolva is supposed to block the de-sensitizing effect of HCG over periods longer than a few weeks. This is good for ppl who use HCG throughout the cycle. here it is :

Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization

**Drummerboy** · 07-22-2005, 04:20 PM

Here is a very long arguement about this topic between bigcat and dr evil :

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=21805

**mark956101957** · 07-22-2005, 07:52 PM

I have read over and over hcg is not for pct but to be used during the cycle. ??????????????????

**dirtyvegas** · 07-22-2005, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by simplecanibus

everybody on here recommends clomid, and i totally am convinced clomid is necesarry pct, but there's been a lot of threads written how nolva is far superior to clomid. are there any threads abolishing this myth?

Hooker has told me Nolva does work better then clomid for PCT as it raises your natural Test Level, I dont know about for everbody else. im sure he was just refering to himself but he knows his shiit, so I dont doubt him at all.

~DV~

**dirtyvegas** · 07-22-2005, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Drummerboy

here is the link for some info on Nolva and HCG . Nolva is supposed to block the de-sensitizing effect of HCG over periods longer than a few weeks. This is good for ppl who use HCG throughout the cycle. here it is :

Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization

Hey drummerboy could you or sombody explain to me what exactly this means without getting all technical n' shiit , i dont quite understand.?

Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.

taken from the thread you posted

**Drummerboy** · 07-22-2005, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by mark956101957

I have read over and over hcg is not for pct but to be used during the cycle. ??????????????????

yes i agree, i use it while on also, some use it after a cycle before PCT.... now after cycle/hcg done, is clomid necessary with 20mg ED Nolva/.25mg ED Ldex (letro)???

**Drummerboy** · 07-22-2005, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by dirtyvegas

Hey drummerboy could you or sombody explain to me what exactly this means without getting all technical n' shiit , i dont quite understand.?

Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.

taken from the thread you posted

It means you may build a resistance to natural LH (luteinizing hormone, here is a link to explain it http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hboo...pit/lhfsh.html)

This is what HCG is, basically for our purposes, it is LH. when you get your natural LH levels back, which tells your nuts to produce natural test, you want your boys to sense the LH. HCG can cause them to become less sensetive to the natural LH, reducing its effect, and your natural test levels may stay low, even in the presence of natural LH. Taking Nolva with your HCG may prevent this desensitization. Thats what the link is about...

**Big M** · 07-23-2005, 02:38 AM

IMO it makes the most sence to keep your balls alive with small amount of hcg during cycle, keep the estogen sides away with nolva during cycle. and use clomid after cycle (to prevent any possible estogen to interfere with the come-back of you natural test production)

**dirtyvegas** · 07-23-2005, 06:26 AM

Damn im really sorry Drummerboy but i still dont understand..

Can you give me and example cycle with just Test E, and include PCT with your theory of Nolvadex and HCG .?? Please

Thanks
~DV~

**Drummerboy** · 07-23-2005, 10:52 AM

You could use HCG at 500iu E4D, with Nolva 10mg ED while on cycle... stay on this until the E ester runs out, like approx 2 weeks. then stop the HCG, bump the nolva to 20mg ED and add .25 Ldex ED. You can also start the 21 day clomid therapy now, but im under the impression it is not needed, as nolva at 20mg ED may do the trick.... i have not done this yet, but this thread is about finding out who has, and does it work.... i may still use clomid until i get solid anserws

**bigbouncinballs** · 07-23-2005, 12:05 PM

let's say you've been on a lot of test for quite some time and were just planning on regular pct once yer done, could i, in theory, start up the hcg now(mid-cycle) at 500iu/2xweek or would i need to be more aggressive due to being already crashed?

**Seattle Junk** · 07-23-2005, 12:39 PM

Big M and mumdman make a lot of sense on using lower doses of HCG while on. I've read both of their posts on this. That keeps the balls sensitive to LH when your natural production has been shut down by gear. I've had shrinkage and it sucks. By bombarding your body with HCG at the end of cycle you are feeding it LH only without stimulating the process from the beginning like clomid does. I've never used nolvadex so I don't know. I've only used HCG and clomid. PCT is very important and necessary to feel sane. I saw so many kids go from being big to small or flat then big. When they are off they don't work out. They only work out when on. That's ridiculous. If you do proper PCT then you keep working out and you see how you look natural after everything is out of your body. I think seeing your physique while off and after a correct PCT is the end product of all of the hours in the gym, strict dieting, etc. It's the best to be natural and still looking very good. That means YOU own that muscle and you can sustain it as long as you want.

**Drummerboy** · 07-24-2005, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by bigbouncinballs

let's say you've been on a lot of test for quite some time and were just planning on regular pct once yer done, could i, in theory, start up the hcg now(mid-cycle) at 500iu/2xweek or would i need to be more aggressive due to being already crashed?

yes, this would be a good move... go a little more aggressive though, and use nolva with it, cause hcg can cause PERMANENT desensitization to natural LH, not good (infertility) maybe 500iu EOD for 3 doses, then E3D for 3 doses, then E4D till the ester has run out. good HCG will NOTICEABLY bring back the boys, and fast... this is from experience.... then start your proper PCT with 20mg nolva ED and ldex .25 ED...