A MUST READ!! Progesterone unveiled...the hidden benefits and common myths...

[macrophage69alpha]

Originally posted by Mike
I've thought about that - it's hard to say really. I have my suspicions though, it is a small amoutn of estrogen but an amount that cannot easily be prevented by normal anti-aromatize like with testosterones

I have a feeling that it is very possible that everyone who thinks they have gotten gyno from "deca converting into progesterone" (which doesnt even happen) really may have just gotten it from estrogen, but in all honesty there is no way to tell. Nobody is going to come on here with PROOF that themselves or their friend got it from progestins rather than estrogen, it's all just heresay. So until i find a guinea pig it's really inconclusive as to how much progestins actually lead to gyno in these cases and how much does estrogen

many of those that got gyno on deca only cycles used nolva WITHOUT EFFECT. (including the ttokkyo friend posted about earlier.. note- vitex did cause recession)

as to your theories...you make some very broad statements regarding large populations.. statements that are not backed up by anecdotal evidence.

another small point progestins DO NOT act as progesterone, while they do bind to the PR their activity is considerably different including but not limited to, binding affinity, binding time, and varied transcription. this will also vary within the PR subtypes.

you do make some good points as that many of the medications mentioned affect growth factor production and liver function (which are linked) and are one of the main causes (outside of AS use and still linked to severity of AS induced) of gyno.

the c-17 issue... is probably more linked to impaired liver function... and increased growth factor production.

[Mike]

Originally posted by macrophage69alpha


many of those that got gyno on deca only cycles used nolva WITHOUT EFFECT. (including the ttokkyo friend posted about earlier.. note- vitex did cause recession)

How could nolvadex help in this situation when the aromatization process is different that that of Nolvadex's method of action??

as to your theories...you make some very broad statements regarding large populations.. statements that are not backed up by anecdotal evidence.

Have you stated ONE piece of evidence for anything?? For my "theories" I have cited credible data - but if EVIDENCE is what you are looking for than it wouldn't be a theory would it? What statement did I make about large populations?

another small point progestins DO NOT act as progesterone, while they do bind to the PR their activity is considerably different including but not limited to, binding affinity, binding time, and varied transcription. this will also vary within the PR subtypes.

Progestins act differently in the body and produce different effects on progesterone receptor sites. Natural progesterone molecules fit EXACTLY into progesterone receptor cells. Where as the introduction of a 19-nor group increases the affinity of the molecule to progesterone receptor and hence the 19-nor testosterone derivatives are more active. That being why natural progesterone is less harmful than the progestin (deca). No, literally speaking progestins do not act as progesterone will at the receptor. I apologize for making that verbal short cut for everyone else's reading. Progesterone acts very naturally with the PR where as there is increased activity with progestins, as they will actually change the shape of the progesterone receptor when interacting.


you do make some good points as that many of the medications mentioned affect growth factor production and liver function (which are linked) and are one of the main causes (outside of AS use and still linked to severity of AS induced) of gyno.

the c-17 issue... is probably more linked to impaired liver function... and increased growth factor production.

[newby]

16 deca , 8 sust, 4 primo, clomid proviron and norvadex in 2.5 months ..is a reasonable cycle 4 a newby? help..!!!!

[NightOp]

Originally posted by Mike
Oral anabolic steroids that are modified by the addition of a side chain or group of molecules at the alpha position of the number 17 carbon atom through alkylation. These are C-17, 17aa steroids.

Orals like winstrol, dianabol, anavar, anadrol etc.

duuuhhhh, i should have known that, thnx, the "C'' threw me off

[macrophage69alpha]

Mike nolvadex has nothing to do with aromatization. It blocks estrogen (as well as other ER bingin hormones and chems) from binding to the ER (Nolva has a very high affinity)..

the point being that the estrogenic metabolite of Deca would also be blocked.. unless it had a higher affinity.. in which case it would be more likely to cause gyno in a greater # of people.

btw- no one has ever elucidated a mechanism for deca conversion..(though it often discussed..) which would lead one to believe that this is a "myth" (not for sure) created to explain the progestenic (which are easily mistaken for estrogenic) effects of deca.



note- you did make statement regarding large populations.. you implied that only a very,very small percentage of people could get gyno from progestenic drugs alone (without the c-17 issue).. which while it may be less common it is IMHO not very,very small.. though this is, of course, debatable... as there is not a lot of evidence anecdotal or otherwise.. either way.. (NO CLEAR NUMBERS)

[NightOp]

macro, just curious, but what do you have a degree in? endocrinology or what...

[gotenks]

Cool post man
Learned some cool stuff today
just one query though
about the dht sayin on a deca /test cycle the deca should deal with the dht form the test yeah, but what other precautions can be taken for this ?

Also in the cases of people getting gyno just from deca is this the people on the vet stuff ?

Interesting about the c17, me bro was gonna do var with deca def need to tell him this.

thanks for the info bro this is def a must read article

[little-man-zane]

Sup mike...great post...
I have a few comments and q's??

1) i was wondering why ppl are asking can i get gyno from this and that...est or prog...because i thought you were arble to recieve this from any steroid ..don't factors like ... receptor senativity/doses/etc...all come into play??

2) If you say that prog gyno is caused mainly because something else opens the receptor sites...will then any agent that causes a hormonal change cause these sites to be effected?? Also what drug interactions could be accounted for this problem??

3) Would other steroids with the exception of 17 aa's also cause this...for example test??

4)What then would be relativelysafer to stack with deca ??? I know not all steroids bal blah blah...but side effects considering?? (not really interested in deca myself...was just wondering?)

Thanks bro..by the way you are GOD

[righton]

I finally read this thread and i got gyno from deca ALONE!!!! Nothing else, no test, no orals, frick all else!!! I used deca after i had a bad car accident to help with joint pain. I had stopped taking all my pain meds, so those were not a contributing factor. I used only 200mg/week and by the third week my left tit hurt so much i thought i was f**king pregnant! A small lump had formed under the nip and has never completely gone away.I have done test and dbol after and no probs, HOWEVER after 2 shots of deca(6 years later) that familiar pain came back.I have taken winny AND nolva with the deca and that did dick!! So if anyone says that "clinical studys have shown yada yada yada" can suck my slightly larger left tit!!!!

[NFG123]

<<Progesterone is a natural and powerful inhibitor of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme. This means - that when on a testosterone /deca cycle and worried about DHT....proscar may not be the answer....>>

Deca INHIBITS 5 a reductase? Are you KIDDING ME? Its a SUBSTRATE of 5 a reductase. The reason you dont want to use finasteride on a deca/T cycle is not because DECA is preventing T from undergoing adverse metabolism to DHT, but because if you INHIBIT 5 a reductase with finasteride you will prevent DECA from being metabolically deactivated in the skin and prostate! This is why people lose hair when on deca and they take propecia!!!!

Progesterone inhibiting 5 a reductase im very dubious about and MIKE you need to back this up with some references from the literature. And im not just talking about bunk science published in "Never Heard of if Journal" but something from JBC, JSBC (journal of steroid biochemistry), Nature, Science or PNAS.

Otherwise, I think the theories in this post are interesting but very flawed. Ask anyone who has got gyno from a deca only cycle if you progesterone induced gyno is just a myth ...

NFG

[deathgod101]

I am 20 years old and while I am nearly fully grown I still want to know this answer:

During the offcycle when there is aromitization to progesterone with certain steroids .... Does progesterone cause stunt in growth?

Thank you.

DeathGod101

[elite2kr]

I am 20 years old and while I am nearly fully grown I still want to know this answer:

During the offcycle when there is aromitization to progesterone with certain steroids .... Does progesterone cause stunt in growth?

Thank you.

DeathGod101

i want to know as well

[Money Boss Hustla]

i want to know as well

You're a little late for the party.

[elite2kr]

You're a little late for the party.

lol yup