Trying to keep it simple for first time

[birsling]

Alright guys, bear with me, this might get a bit long.

Background: Lifting for a little over 7 yrs, about 2 (maybe a little more) very seriously. Pics of me are available, follow the link http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=107894 . I am in week 4 of my 4 week M1T cycle, and been happy with the results. Along with being happy it has peaked my interest in aas also. Something I said that I would never do, but that was when I was much less educated (before I found this and other sites and started reading). I have been working with NSA in the supplement forum on a cycle, and waiting for some feedback from him. While I am waiting, I thought I would run the idea in here.

Goals: Add about 15-20 lbs lean muscle, and keep the gains. Want very little/no bloat. Obviously, like everybody else, as few sides as possible. I am not very prone to acne, hair loss is not in my family (but you never no), and I was at one time very fat, so I don't really want a lot of fat. Want minimal injections because I want minimal needles capable of being around my nearly 2 yr old son.

Possible setback: I am not a good bulk eater. I really have to concentrate on keeping calories up in a day. I am so used to having to try and diet and lose weight, I am not good at having a 3500+ cal intake.

Stats: Turn 25 y/o in September (probably when I will run cycle). Currently 5'10", 190 lbs, about 9.5% BF.

Proposed cycle:

Wks 1-4 10 mg M1T ED
Wks 1-12 500 mg/wk (250, twice/wk) Test E
Wks 1-12 10mg Nolvadex ED
Wks 13-17 20mg Nolva ED
Wks 15-17 Clomid (300-100-50)
Wks 1-17 Multivitamin ED
Wks 1-4 1500mg Hawthorne Berry Extract
Wks 13-17 1000mg Milk Thistle

Trying to keep it simple, and to the point. Let me know what you think. I hope I provided enough info to benefit from the answers. Also let me know if anything should be added or subtracted to minimize sides/bloat. Thanks in advance.

[map200uk]

looks good, u dont need the M1T, is it there to kickstart or for some other reason?

[dirtdawg]

i would also run clomid 1 week longer

[birsling]

Yeah, there for kickstart. I have been thinking about dropping it, but thought I could get a jump while waiting for the E to kick. What do you think?

[SKiN]

I dont know jack about M1T but id kickstart with prop or dbol...

[birsling]

Might consider dbol, but too many injections with prop. Everything I research/read says ED, or EOD. That is more than I want to do for first time at least. Dbol I will have to look into more. Just seems most people say do a test only first.

[SKiN]

They are panzies.....j/k

I see nothin wrong with jumpstarting a first cycle with dbol...
Be ready for the back pumps tho..

and impressive transformation bro...

[birsling]

They are panzies.....j/k

I see nothin wrong with jumpstarting a first cycle with dbol...
Be ready for the back pumps tho..

and impressive transformation bro...

Thank you bro. M1T gives some pretty sick back pumps. Don't know if they compare, but have had them throughout my M1T cycle. Doesn't bother me too much. What would you run the dbol for. First 4 weeks?

[SKiN]

Right on... they dont bother me too much either..... just lets me know its working heh

Most people take around 35mg ed for 4 weeks.

[dirtdawg]

Thank you bro. M1T gives some pretty sick back pumps. Don't know if they compare, but have had them throughout my M1T cycle. Doesn't bother me too much. What would you run the dbol for. First 4 weeks?

you could do d bol 30 mgs ed for 4 weeks

[itsallmental]

keep it simple bro. i ran test at 400 mg weekly for 12 and gained 28. no dbol, no anti estrogens.

[birsling]

keep it simple bro. i ran test at 400 mg weekly for 12 and gained 28. no dbol, no anti estrogens.

No anti-E's? Or are you saying just keep them on hand? What test did you run?

[SKiN]

Ya hes sayin just keep them on hand...

I guess it depends on how patient you are... wait 4 weeks for the test or couple days for the dbol...

[dirtdawg]

No anti-E's? Or are you saying just keep them on hand? What test did you run?

you need anti e's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!dont take the chance of gyno, and why make your recovery longer

[birsling]

I'm hard working, but patience is not a virtue I have. I will have to read more about it. It is conflicting what I was thinking originally (test only), but makes some sense.

[dirtdawg]

I'm hard working, but patience is not a virtue I have. I will have to read more about it. It is conflicting what I was thinking originally (test only), but makes some sense.

clomid is necessary, it restores your hpta and it keeps your boys hanging low

[SKiN]

clomid is necessary, it restores your hpta and it keeps your boys hanging low

No one said dont take clomid guy.....

[birsling]

Well, here is what it is looking like now. My only concern is bloat. I read a lot about bad bloat with both dbol and E. Guess I will have to consider adding the .25 of ldex.

Wks 1-4 30 mg dbol ED
Wks 1-12 500 mg/wk (250, twice/wk) Test E
Wks 1-12 10mg Nolvadex ED
Wks 13-17 20mg Nolva ED
Wks 15-17 Clomid (300-100-50)
Wks 1-17 Multivitamin ED
Wks 1-4 1500mg Hawthorne Berry Extract
Wks 13-17 1000mg Milk Thistle

How does that look for a September cycle?

[dirtdawg]

Well, here is what it is looking like now. My only concern is bloat. I read a lot about bad bloat with both dbol and E. Guess I will have to consider adding the .25 of ldex.

Wks 1-4 30 mg dbol ED
Wks 1-12 500 mg/wk (250, twice/wk) Test E
Wks 1-12 10mg Nolvadex ED
Wks 13-17 20mg Nolva ED
Wks 15-17 Clomid (300-100-50)
Wks 1-17 Multivitamin ED
Wks 1-4 1500mg Hawthorne Berry Extract
Wks 13-17 1000mg Milk Thistle

How does that look for a September cycle?

i would run clomid and nolva 1 week longer, i dont think l dex is necessary, you could use 20 mgs nolva throughout

[birsling]

Longer you think. 20 mgs throughout, and run clomid and nolva 1 extra week. Is that what you are thinking?

[dirtdawg]

Longer you think. 20 mgs throughout, and run clomid and nolva 1 extra week. Is that what you are thinking?

yes 20 mgs will help with the bloat more, and clomid for 4 weeks, run nolva till last day of clomid, that is what i did, but i used 100 mgs clomid for 30 days, and 300 day 1

[birsling]

So you would propose this:

Wks 1-4 30 mg dbol ED
Wks 1-12 500 mg/wk (250, twice/wk) Test E
Wks 1-18 20mg Nolva ED
Wks 15-18 Clomid (300-100-50)
Wks 1-17 Multivitamin ED
Wks 1-4 1500mg Hawthorne Berry Extract
Wks 13-17 1000mg Milk Thistle

[dirtdawg]

14-18 clomid

[birsling]

I thought 3 weeks after last inject to start clomid. What kind of history do you have with this? I am just trying to figure out the difference between what I have been reading, and the feedback I am getting. Doesn't seem out of line, just different. Thanks for all the help so far

[dirtdawg]

I thought 3 weeks after last inject to start clomid. What kind of history do you have with this? I am just trying to figure out the difference between what I have been reading, and the feedback I am getting. Doesn't seem out of line, just different. Thanks for all the help so far

its 14 days for enth and 21 days for cyp, i have read 18, read pheednos pct and that should answer all your questions, myself, i did what i told you and kept almost all my gains, never lost my libido, i added 6 g's of trib during pct, so that helped, also check out pct start times, you could also run 4 g's during cycle to help out the boys

[kingofmasters]

Start 3 weeks prior to cycle with Letrozole and continue it all the way too PCT @ 1 mg ED.

Don't worry about calories just worry about proteins,
Lean meats, fish, and chicken are good sources!
Also during cycle think about proteinshakes (taste like milkshakes)

take a 60% Milkprotein/30% whey/10% glutamine peptides mixture
50 grams first thing in the morning
50 grams 1 hour after work-out
30-50 grams 50% Milkprotein/50% Calcium Caseinate right before bed!
(order the two mixtures with Aminogen! and if you want vitaminmix)

A good cycle would be:
week 1-12 Test Enantate 250 mg E3D
week 9-14 Anavar 50 mg ED
PCT week 16

or if you are up to it:
week 1-14 Test Enantate 250 mg E3D
week 1-12 Boldenon 200 mg E3D
week 9-14 Anavar 50 mg ED
PCT week 16

You can also include Clen+Taurine (80-100 mcg + 5 grams ED) for two weeks on and two weeks off with an ECY-stack on "off-weeks".

ECY is best made using 1fast400 supplies using
(Vasopro Ephedrine 25 mg + 200 mg Cafeine + 5 mg Yohimbine + 40 mg Guggelsterones + 75 mg Acetyl-L-carnitine) 3 times a day!

And if you decide to do Clen + ECY with cycle, then shedule it that the last blitz of that is 30 days of clen+taurine (+ketotifen, because it will otherwise loose it's effect because 30 days is too long) during PCT.

While not a guarantee, but with proper training, the second cycle will yield 20-30 lbs or more in LBM gains while dropping fatpercentage about 5%...
And it will also get rid of that "excess-skin" problem you mentioned!

Greets
Kingofmasters

Forgot to mention that 60-80 grams of carbs within 15 minutes of completing your training is also very important!

[birsling]

King,
You think stack with var instead of front-loading dbol? Why? I remember you talking about letro before also. How is that going to help with the extra skin? That is mostly covering my lower abs, which I would love to get rid of!

[MrDezel]

use anti-e's to keep the bloat down.

[kingofmasters]

King,
You think stack with var instead of front-loading dbol? Why? I remember you talking about letro before also. How is that going to help with the extra skin? That is mostly covering my lower abs, which I would love to get rid of!

Because Boldenon and Anavar have regenerating characteristics on tissue, Clen and Letrozole have that as well but indirectly...
Letrozole also gets rid of the estrogenic fat deposits and excess water, making the "tightning" of the skin after loosing a lot of weight to happen much faster (This only holds true to people below about 30 years old)...

Don't front with Dianabol --> People use it so they can feel "the steroidpump" faster, but I never liked the idea of Dianabol (I don't like it's characteristics and sides!)...

And as to you being very fat at one point, I think you probably can appreciate the bloat and extra fat that Dianabol brings (Letrozole can keep that a bit in control though) a lot less than the skintightning, muscledefining, fatshredding, vascular making Ripness Drug that is Anavar!

Greets
Kingofmasters

[birsling]

Now this is sensible conversation. Do you recommend stacking that for a first cycle though? Sounds great, but is someone able to handle it for first time?

[kingofmasters]

No that's why i said of you are up to it!

I would just do the first cycle:

Week 1-12 Test Enan. 250 MG E3D
Week 9-14 Anavar 50 mg ED (if you find it to expensive take winstrol)
PCT week 14

VERY important!
Proteinguidelines and Protein and carbs timing!
And Letrozole taken 3 weeks prior to cycle!!

Greets
Kingofmasters

[birsling]

Everyone,
Thanks for all the help thus far. King, I like your idea (at least the theory) of the Test E and Var cycle. I will see how it comes out price wise. Does anyone know what I should be paying for Var? I will have to track that down.

[juiceinthehood]

bro do test e cycle @ 600mg (300 2x a week) for 12 weeks you will get the results you want
also look int a test e and eq cycle since you want lean mass that will stay with u longer **** the dbol get more experience with gear first
test only or a test eq cycle
u will be very satisfied

[birsling]

Juice, sounds like a decent idea. I have dropped the idea of the dbol. Reading more about it, doesn't sound like it is for me. I like the idea of a kickstart, but I think I will be more patient. So far, I like what King is saying. He has been on me with this letrozole idea, and I like it. I am going to price out Var and see how it works out for me. I think it is going to look pretty much like what King said:

Wks 1-22 Letrozole 1mg ED
Wks 4-16 Test E 250mg E3D (28 inj)
Wks 13-18 Anavar 50mg ED
Wks 13-18 1500mg Hawthorne Berry
Wks 4-18 10mg Nolva
Wks 18-22 20mg Nolva
Wks 18-22 Clomid (300/100/50)
Wks 18-22 1000mg Milk Thistle

Look good? Want to get this planned, purchased, and ready for September

[kingofmasters]

Juice, sounds like a decent idea. I have dropped the idea of the dbol. Reading more about it, doesn't sound like it is for me. I like the idea of a kickstart, but I think I will be more patient. So far, I like what King is saying. He has been on me with this letrozole idea, and I like it. I am going to price out Var and see how it works out for me. I think it is going to look pretty much like what King said:

Wks 1-22 Letrozole 1mg ED
Wks 4-16 Test E 250mg E3D (28 inj)
Wks 13-18 Anavar 50mg ED
Wks 13-18 1500mg Hawthorne Berry
Wks 4-18 10mg Nolva
Wks 18-22 20mg Nolva
Wks 18-22 Clomid (300/100/50)
Wks 18-22 1000mg Milk Thistle

Look good? Want to get this planned, purchased, and ready for September

Looks very good, if you are planning to cut on cost buy some powder and a very accurate scale (about $80 at 1fast400) and cap or liquifie the Anavar and Liquifie the Letrozole...

Letrozole can also be used 1 mg EOD

Greets
Kingofmasters

[Lozgod]

I like it. I don't see any purpose in dropping the Hawthorne. That is probaly the best heart protecting herb out there. I say take it everyday whether you are on or off cycle.

[birsling]

I am not too worried about the cost of the letro. Purchasing it in powder is a decent idea though, since I do own a very nice digi scale. Might just buy the research liquid anyway though. I am going to have to check out the var though. I definitely like the way it sounds. I would never drop the Hawthorne because it is a very cheap insurance policy. Thanks for all the help thus far.

[Lozgod]

I would never drop the Hawthorne because it is a very cheap insurance policy.

What I am saying is why drop it after 4 weeks. I take 600mg's ED year round. It is great for the heart.