Oxandralone Toxic??

**Anaballick** · 02-21-2002, 03:32 PM

I recently came across an article in Testosterone magazine issue #6 about Anavar . I will just go ahead and quote Brock Strasser:

"Oxandrolone is actually very toxic, more so than even oxymetholone, even though some people will say I'm wrong about this. High doses of oxandralone greater than 40mg per day cause profound hepatoenzymatic damage. So I'd stick to a dose of under 25mg per day for six to seven weeks minimum."

I was planning on doing a anavar only cycle for 8 weeks at 50mg a day along with clen and ECA cycled every two weeks throughout. I am mainly doing this maintain what I have gained from my previous bulking cycle. I have been told by various respectable people that I know in person and that have used anavar that it is the safest 17aa steroid there is. I was told that strength gains are excellent, but size gains are very small but all are kept. I guess I want to keep my strength high for motivation as well as lose bodyfat while maintaining my newly gained muscle. I was also told that many users use anavar as a bridge inbetween cycles. So how toxic is anavar and what kind of gains can one expect using it. Also is the differance between 25mg and 50mg a big one as far as organ damage and effecting natural test production? Is anavar just as toxic as other 17aa's or is it different? Any experianced users and or vets advice and/or information/articles is greatly appreciated.

**NightOp** · 02-21-2002, 03:42 PM

wonderful question which I would love to hear the answers to as well, from everything i've read (and even advice I've given

) is that anavar is pretty safe, but hopefully someone who acutally knows what they are talkin about will answer this one.

**Anaballick** · 02-21-2002, 03:47 PM

Found this in the database. Helped somewhat but could'nt find a lot of information on my original questions.

http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...ghlight=anavar

I am debating weither or not to use clomid post cycle to stimulate the boys, I have been told at low doses of Var its uneccesary but at 50mg it would probaly be a wise choise. Is this way off base or pretty good advice?

**NightOp** · 02-21-2002, 04:02 PM

yes i would use clomid post cycle, and I also read (aside from the toxicity problem) that anavar can possibly cause a moderate amount of any natural testosterone you are producing to convert to estrogen even though the anavar is not aromatizing, so therefore I would consider having arimidex and nolva on hand or maybe even run the arimidex at 1/4 mg ED thru the whole cycle..

**Anaballick** · 02-21-2002, 05:30 PM

NightOp, no flame bro but you have never used anavar or AS for that matter before correct? I appreciate your first post and opinion but I really have a problem with people giving out advice that have no experiance with AS or are not a Vet/doctor. I want to get the opinion of people who have experiance with Ox and also vets. I have done my research on the drug quite extensively but take a lot of information on the internet/books with a grain of salt. Once again bro not trying to single you out or anything I see a lot of people give out advice that have never touched AS in their life and get all of their information through the internet or Anabolics2000 type books.

**RUSSIANBEAR** · 02-21-2002, 05:36 PM

I would also like to hear what the bro's have to say about "Var".
"Anaballic" alot of the stuff you read may not be true, I came across alot of B/S several times in various magazines and Encyclopedias. Dont believe everything you read bro.

**Anaballick** · 02-21-2002, 06:30 PM

http://www.oxandrin.com/prescribing_info2.html#prec

According to this site Anavar is not toxic to the liver.

**Anaballick** · 02-21-2002, 06:41 PM

According to this study Anavar is more toxic than Anadrol and Winstrol . WTF????

Heard in Geneva:
Oxandrin May Cause Liver Toxicity
by Michael Mooney (Original article in issue #7, October, 1998. Updated July, 2001)
(See also Dr. Donald Abrams review in The AIDS Reader March, 2001;11(3)

While Oxandrin is promoted as being non-toxic to the liver, the truth is Oxandrin is a 17-alpha alkylated oral anabolic steroid so it has the potential to burden the liver, just like any other oral 17-alpha alkylated steroid. We have questioned that its potential for liver toxicity would be enhanced when it is used with other liver-challenging drugs like protease inhibitors and other standard AIDS medications, or with higher dosages. We have an answer.

At the Geneva AIDS Conference, Dr. Carl Grunfeld presented the preliminary results of a placebo controlled dose-ranging study that used 20, 40 and 80 mg daily doses that showed that doses of 40 and 80 mg cause incidence of elevated transaminases (SGOT and SGPT), which may indicate liver toxicity.

Doses above 20 mg per day were tested because 20 mg was found to be relatively ineffective for lean mass gain in some men. Oxandrin is a better option for women who need about half the men’s dose. Children need much less. Although most studies tell us that Oxandrin is relatively safe for HIV-negative people, oxandrolone produced evidence of liver toxicity in studies of boys with kidney failure in 1980.1 We have been somewhat surprised at the number of HIV(+) men who report to us that Oxandrin caused elevations in the blood tests that can indicate liver toxicity. Physician’s should monitor liver tests carefully when Oxandrin, or any oral anabolic steroid is used, especially in higher doses.

Winstrol, another oral steroid is a less expensive option for males. It appears to be somewhat more anabolic than Oxandrin, and a 6 to 18 mg. daily dose has produced good muscle gains without detectable liver burden in males we’ve observed. Anadrol is another powerful option, and while it is thought to be toxic to the liver, we had not had one report of Anadrol at doses as high as 150 mg per day causing elevated liver enzymes until July, 1999, after Anadrol had been on the market for about a year and a half.

This male reported that he had used Anadrol with no negative effect on his liver enzymes when he was using the anti-HIV medications Viracept, Zerit, and Epivir. About nine months after he ended the first Anadrol cycle he started a new cycle of Anadrol, but this time his HIV medications consisted of a cocktail of Videx, Viramune, Hydroxyurea, and Ziagen. Within a few months of this second cycle of Anadrol, blood tests that can indicate liver problems became elevated. It appears that one or more of the medications he was using had some problematic interaction with Anadrol. While we do not know conclusively which medication(s) may have promoted the problem, we have been hearing reports of liver toxicity being associated with hydroxyurea used in combination with other medications in HIV, so this should be taken into consideration.

Interestingly, he also said, "... Anadrol produced much quicker, better results regarding muscle growth. It seemed that just looking at weights added mass! I went from about 185 lbs to about 203 lbs in about 4 months. After stopping the Anadrol and continuing the workouts, I leveled out at 195. The Oxandrin seems to be less effective, although to be fair, I've only been on it for 3 weeks."

Added July, 2001: As time has passed since Anadrol has been introduced into the HIV community, evidence of liver toxicity has appeared, but generally with higher dose use. It appears that oral steroid doses over 20 mg per day, in general, should be considered to have potential for liver toxicity. Anadrol has been prescribed in HIV medicine in doses up to 150 mg per day, and at this dose we have had some reports of liver enzyme elevations, including GGT, a discreet liver function test.

Compare Drug Toxicity at Equal Doses

It is important to note that comparisons of studies that showed a seeming lack of a negative effect of Oxandrin on liver enzymes with HIV(-) and HIV(+) people related to studies of Anadrol that showed a negative effect are not credible. When we consider that liver toxicity is a dose-related phenomena, and then consider that the typical doses that Anadrol has been used and studied at are often 100 mg per day, and the doses that Oxandrin has been used and studied at are usually about 10 to 15 mg per day, there is no credible way to use data from these studies to compare the potential for toxicity of the two steroids . To accurately compare them each steroid must be given at the same dosage to matched subjects.

The Grunfeld study that showed that Oxandrin caused elevated SGOT and SGPT enzymes raises questions about whether Oxandin is just as potentially toxic as any other steroid at higher doses.

Those who’ve had liver disease or are using protease inhibitors (especially Norvir) should have their liver function tested regularly while using any oral steroid and take liver protectants like evening primrose oil, silymarin, lipoic acid, glutamine, and N-acetyl-cysteine.

Also, because oral steroids can decrease the "good" HDL cholesterol and increase the "bad" LDL cholesterol, oral steroids can increase the risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD). If you use oral anabolic steroids consider taking 400 to 800 IU of Vitamin E, and 1,000 to 2,000 mg. of Vitamin C with each meal. These vitamin antioxidants help to protect cholesterol from the oxidation that is associated with CVD.

**NightOp** · 02-21-2002, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Anaballick
NightOp, no flame bro but you have never used anavar or AS for that matter before correct? I appreciate your first post and opinion but I really have a problem with people giving out advice that have no experiance with AS or are not a Vet/doctor. I want to get the opinion of people who have experiance with Ox and also vets. I have done my research on the drug quite extensively but take a lot of information on the internet/books with a grain of salt. Once again bro not trying to single you out or anything I see a lot of people give out advice that have never touched AS in their life and get all of their information through the internet or Anabolics2000 type books.

i totally hear ya bro, I usually add a line on my replies saying that I've never used it and that whatever I say is what i've learned by reading... sorry I didn't do that this time, I think it is sort of an unspoken caution we should all take, that is, don't believe everything you hear.. however the majority of my reply info contains stuff that I have read from a vet or mod at one time or another, but in the end most people on here aren't experts and advice should be taken with a grain of salt, like you said

**Anaballick** · 02-21-2002, 08:41 PM

Well bro thanks for the replies, im not saying you dont know your shit, you just had posted the other day that you had never cycled and it concerned me a tad that you were giving advice, your advice seems to be good though take care.

**go4gold** · 02-21-2002, 09:05 PM

so i guess we shouldn't juice, lol

**BIG_GUNS_21** · 02-21-2002, 10:57 PM

I think the thing about var being "safe" is more along the lines of not causeing a "crash" b/c it does not effect your natural test levles. The fact of the matter is is that anavar is STILL an oral steroid and they are toxic. They NEED to be so that they are not destroyed in the liver. So I would use var in moderation just like any other oral steroid. Not somthing I would ever recomend for exteneded periods of time or at extraodinary amounts.

**Dead Man Inc** · 02-22-2002, 09:13 AM

BG21! How ya doing bro!? Anyway, Anavar does effect your natural test levels by up to 60% at just 20mg ed after just a few weeks.

Originally posted by BIG_GUNS_21
I think the thing about var being "safe" is more along the lines of not causeing a "crash" b/c it does not effect your natural test levles. The fact of the matter is is that anavar is STILL an oral steroid and they are toxic. They NEED to be so that they are not destroyed in the liver. So I would use var in moderation just like any other oral steroid. Not somthing I would ever recomend for exteneded periods of time or at extraodinary amounts.

**BIG_GUNS_21** · 02-22-2002, 10:29 AM

Oh shit! there goes my bridge....lol jk There is 2 reasons I said that, ONE: I was grossly missinformed...lol (Not to big to admit that lol) and TWO: I worded it kinda shitty when talking about safety. (IE I was thinking more along the lines of females useing var and it being one of the safest for them due to lack of clit gro or whatever ya call it...lol Gotta give me a break I just got outta bed...lol)

Doing real good bro. BUSY but I should be back full time to BSS in a month maybe 2. I still drop in but just dont have time to post much. Take care of yourself brotha...

CYCLEON · 02-22-2002, 11:07 AM

First of all, Brock Strasser is not exactly a reliable source of information - Mooney is (tho he is normally looking at doses for Aids patients) anyway, anavar is 17aa and thus WILL have some toxicity if enough is taken - it is just that of all the orals it seems to be the lowest impact - quite different taking 60mg of anavar ED and 60mg of dbol (real stuff) as far as liver impact.

**NightOp** · 02-22-2002, 01:35 PM

this is a pretty generalized question, how can the toxicity of anavar be related to alcohol abuse? Is four weeks of 40mg ED of anavar more damaging than getting drunk everyweekend for four weeks? This has been asked before in other threads, but I think we all are looking for some evidence that we can relate to.

**Iconn** · 02-22-2002, 01:40 PM

First of all, Brock Strasser is not exactly a reliable source of information

No shit. I was reading his "Gramabol" cycle. He says you should use 300mg of any test for the 1st 2 weeks and then 1000mg for the next 8-10. Also use 25-50mg of clomid all throughout the cycle. I will go by my own experience instead of someONE elses.

CYCLEON · 02-22-2002, 01:50 PM

taking 40mg of anavar ED is no where near the stress on your liver that alcohol is - especailly a big binge of it.

**BIG_GUNS_21** · 02-22-2002, 01:57 PM

I have read a few articles on that and this is true. Oral steroids are less harmful on the liver then drinking heavily even if just for the weekend. I just dont have tests to back it up b/c I dont drink. I just get blood work done for cycles, not bindge outs...lol

Originally posted by CYCLEON
taking 40mg of anavar ED is no where near the stress on your liver that alcohol is - especailly a big binge of it.

**Anaballick** · 02-22-2002, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by CYCLEON
First of all, Brock Strasser is not exactly a reliable source of information - Mooney is (tho he is normally looking at doses for Aids patients) anyway, anavar is 17aa and thus WILL have some toxicity if enough is taken - it is just that of all the orals it seems to be the lowest impact - quite different taking 60mg of anavar ED and 60mg of dbol (real stuff) as far as liver impact.

Thank you, you answered my question. My friend seemed to think this guy was a major authority and I was like, his advice sucks bro, according to everything I have learned and heard. I guess the whole reason I started this thread is because I wanted to do a mild cycle to mainly keep my gains and stay away from the darts over the summer. The primary reasons I choose anavar was #1 lower liver toxicity compared to other non-injectables and #2 that it doesnt aramatize to estrogen. Someone above sugguested arimidex , is that really necessary with anavar? I don't even use arimidex on my heavy cycles because of cost and availability. I will use clomid post cycle as a precaution because it is cheap. I have talked to several women and this one girl claimed she got so strong that she began to get scared that she was taking more than 10mg and discontinued use after 7 weeks. A lot of information shows that anavar does give very respectable strength gains and accompanying natural speed mass gains.

**Anaballick** · 02-22-2002, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by BIG_GUNS_21
I have read a few articles on that and this is true. Oral steroids are less harmful on the liver then drinking heavily even if just for the weekend. I just dont have tests to back it up b/c I dont drink. I just get blood work done for cycles, not bindge outs...lol

Awesome. I gave up drinking for bodybuilding, its nice to know it wont even be as damaging as drinking on the weekends. What liver protectants would you guys recommend besides milk thistle?

**McBain** · 02-22-2002, 03:11 PM

I have been considering doing a cycle with var/test. If deca was added woudlnt the added protein synthesis produce pretty awesome gains, since var causes such an increase in strength deca would allow your body to take advantage of this? One problem I have with deca though is that I don't like the idea of it being in my system for 18 months. During those 18 months is it still somewhat active or is it just detecable. I know I won't be like gaining like I was on the cycle, but I don't want it affected my nat test levels and shit for too long. If clomid is thrown in post cycle and armidex is used during cycle would this be relatively safe cycle at dosages of say: 30mg var ed, 200mg deca/week, 250mg sust/week.