Interesting idea for keeping prop levels stable

[vestax]

Just a thought that came across while I was on the can actually, I am not sure what the halflife of prop is but lets hypothetically assume it is 24 hours.

So if you shoot prop like this

day1: 50
day2: (have 25 from before bc of halflife) shoot another 50 = 75
day3: (have 33 from before) shoot another 50 = 83
day4: (have 42 from before) shoot another 50 = 92
day5: (have 46 from before) shoot another 50 = 96
day6: (have 47 from before) shoot another 50 = 97
day7 is when the equilibrium is reached and so you have 97mg in your system ED as long as you keep shooting those dosages, right?

so what if you started your prop cycle like this:

day1: 100mg
day2: (left with 50mg from day before) shoot another 50 = 100
day3: (left with 50mg from day before) shoot another 50 = 100
equilibrium stabilizes in 2 days rather than 7

perhaps this will let it kick in sooner as the blood levels are more constant?
I am not sure if this idea is original or not,

but what do you guys think about it does it make more sense?
if you worked it out properly with the real halflife of test prop, by varying dosage at the first onsent of your cycle maybe you would see quicker results due to the quicker equilibrium of the test values in your blood


what do you guys think of this does anyone know if this would work better?
just felt like throwing it out on the forum.......

[TheMudMan]

The half-life of Prop is 3 days.............. In your example it would take longer to get blood levels saturated and stable............ It would be best to take a dosage and run it through the cycle that way........ This would keep blood levels stable and peaked........ JMO

[MMC78]

I am not sure what the halflife of prop is but lets hypothetically assume it is 24 hours.

It's 4 and a half days (108 hours) days. I have no freaking idea why people here say you have to shoot it every day. We're not talking about suspension here.

It's kind of like how everyone says to use 500mg test-e for their first cycle. Thread parrots repeat this ad nauseam.

I'm just getting sick of the extremely conservative views held on this board recently.

[TheMudMan]

It's 4 and a half days (108 hours) days. I have no freaking idea why people here say you have to shoot it every day. We're not talking about suspension here.

It's kind of like how everyone says to use 500mg test-e for their first cycle. Thread parrots repeat this ad nauseam.

I'm just getting sick of the extremely conservative views held on this board recently.

Take a look at this http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=94822

I'm sick of everyone using "parrot" when they don't feel like thier views are what should be used by everyone else............. why not make your point and leave it that?

If you would wait to run Prop E3D or even E4D your blood levels/hormones would be so whacked that your would see many more sides and a lot less in gains........... You could get away with EOD but ED is best and WILL keep blood levels the most stable.

[kronik]

It's 4 and a half days (108 hours) days. I have no freaking idea why people here say you have to shoot it every day. We're not talking about suspension here.

It's kind of like how everyone says to use 500mg test-e for their first cycle. Thread parrots repeat this ad nauseam.

I'm just getting sick of the extremely conservative views held on this board recently.

Suspension is twice a day . The reason test e or cyp is mainly recommened is due to the twice weekly shots. No newbie IMO is or will shot ED or EOD(prop) or EOD(sus) for a first cycle. Plus it is a single ester and if you react badly to it you know what caused it. I personally see no reason why you cant add a second compound to a first cycle as long as you have educated yourself on that particular compound(deca ,dbol ,winny).

[AandF6969]

It's kind of like how everyone says to use 500mg test-e for their first cycle. Thread parrots repeat this ad nauseam.

So WTF is 500mg Test E not a good newbie cycle or what?

[einstein1905]

Take a look at this http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=94822

I'm sick of everyone using "parrot" when they don't feel like thier views are what should be used by everyone else............. why not make your point and leave it that?

If you would wait to run Prop E3D or even E4D your blood levels/hormones would be so whacked that your would see many more sides and a lot less in gains........... You could get away with EOD but ED is best and WILL keep blood levels the most stable.

And that's actually the active life, which is longer than the half-life. I'm not sure where the idea that prop's half-life was 4.5 days came from. The theoretical programs that calculate plasma levels are meaning less to me, because all they do is tell you how much of the compound will have been de-esterified.......they do not take into account the actual rate of metabolization of the test itself (once de-esterified). If you've ever seen plasma level graphs of test prop and tren acetate ED vs EOD injects, you'll see that even ED injects have distinct peaks and valleys. EOD is of course worse. Long -estered gear has a much more gradual peak and valley pattern, so this provides much less "inconsistency" in the body, as the body recognizes a circadian pattern, but a gradual change over the course of a few days is insignificant.

[BeefCakeStew]

This is what the blood levels would look like at ED with 100mg shots ED of prop that has a half life of 4days. I used a simple half life equation in Excel.
Ill put one together for E4D so we can see the difference.

BTW. I have always thought we start PCT early so we can blood levels of Serms up. At day 3 after 100mg ED you will still have 250mg in depot right? Which is about a 40mg release for that day. Which is well above the 8-10mg our body releases naturally. So Clomids effects will only really start taking effect until serum levels are below a release of 8mg ED right? I am personally see no big prop with EOD and ED is a little overprecautious. E4D is overdoing it IMO, but I guess we will see.

Day--------- Amount in Depot--- Amount Left--- Amount Released that day
1------------100.0------------- 84.1-------------- 15.9
2------------ 184.1------------ 154.8------------ 29.3
3------------ 254.8------------ 214.3------------ 40.5
4------------ 314.3------------ 264.3------------ 50.0
5------------ 364.3------------ 306.3------------ 58.0
6------------ 406.3------------ 341.7------------ 64.6
7------------ 441.7------------ 371.4------------ 70.3
8------------ 471.4------------ 396.4------------ 75.0
9------------ 496.4------------ 417.4------------ 79.0
10------------ 517.4------------ 435.1------------ 82.3
11------------ 535.1------------ 450.0------------ 85.1
12------------ 550.0------------ 462.5------------ 87.5
13------------ 562.5------------ 473.0------------ 89.5
14------------ 573.0------------ 481.8------------ 91.2
15------------ 581.8------------ 489.2------------ 92.6
16------------ 589.2------------ 495.5------------ 93.8
17------------ 595.5------------ 500.7------------ 94.7
18------------ 600.7------------ 505.2------------ 95.6
19------------ 605.2------------ 508.9------------ 96.3
20------------ 608.9------------ 512.0------------ 96.9
21------------ 612.0------------ 514.6------------ 97.4
22------------ 614.6------------ 516.8------------ 97.8
23------------ 616.8------------ 518.7------------ 98.1
24------------ 618.7------------ 520.3------------ 98.4

[BeefCakeStew]

This is prop 400mg E4D for the first 4days (during maintenance) shown in release/hr.

hour--- Amount in Depot--- Amount Left --- Amount Released that hour.
1---------- 800.0---------- 794.2---------- 5.8

12---------- 755.1---------- 749.7---------- 5.4

24---------- 692.4---------- 687.4---------- 5.0

36---------- 639.6---------- 635---------- 4.6

48---------- 586.5---------- 582.3---------- 4.2

64---------- 522.5---------- 518.7---------- 3.8
76---------- 479.1---------- 476.6---------- 3.4
96---------- 414.7---------- 411.7---------- 3.0

You can see by the fourth day an average of 3mg/hr is being released, which is almost half of the 5.8mg/hr of the first day. 5.4*24hrs=129.2mg average release for 1st day. 3.4mg*24hrs=81.6mg average release for the 4th day. Overall, there is about a 46mg difference from hr1 to hr96. Those are huge peaks n valley's IMO. Maybe this makes me a parrot but Im not every running my prop E4D with #'s like that. Eh, but what can you do?



P.S.

Also during maintenance with ED and EOD shots with prop.

100mg ED at 1st hour release is 4.3mg. At hour 24 release is 3.7mg. So 4.3mg-3.7mg=.6mg max fluctuation in blood levels for 24hr period.

200mg EOD at 1st hour release is 4.9mg/hr. At hour 48 release is 3.6mg/hr. So 4.9mg-3.6mg=1.3mg/hr max fluctuation in blood levels for a 2day period.



If I missed anything or numbers came out wrong let me know. It's easy to misplace numbers this late at night.

I used the equation: Amount Release = Initial Amount*.5^(Hours Between Injections/Half Life hours) + amt in depot from previous injection.

[einstein1905]

What's missing from models like this is the fact that the curve for release vs time as actually fairly dramatically shifted to the left, and, as I mentioned earlier, the rate of metabolization of the unesterified test (or AAS). Graphs that actually show plasma levels vs time (from actual blood samples) show much greater fluctuations

[MMC78]

This is what the blood levels would look like at ED with 100mg shots ED of prop that has a half life of 4days. I used a simple half life equation in Excel.
Ill put one together for E4D so we can see the difference.

BTW. I have always thought we start PCT early so we can blood levels of Serms up. At day 3 after 100mg ED you will still have 250mg in depot right? Which is about a 40mg release for that day. Which is well above the 8-10mg our body releases naturally. So Clomids effects will only really start taking effect until serum levels are below a release of 8mg ED right? I am personally see no big prop with EOD and ED is a little overprecautious. E4D is overdoing it IMO, but I guess we will see.

Day--------- Amount in Depot--- Amount Left--- Amount Released that day
1------------100.0------------- 84.1-------------- 15.9
2------------ 184.1------------ 154.8------------ 29.3
3------------ 254.8------------ 214.3------------ 40.5
4------------ 314.3------------ 264.3------------ 50.0
5------------ 364.3------------ 306.3------------ 58.0
6------------ 406.3------------ 341.7------------ 64.6
7------------ 441.7------------ 371.4------------ 70.3
8------------ 471.4------------ 396.4------------ 75.0
9------------ 496.4------------ 417.4------------ 79.0
10------------ 517.4------------ 435.1------------ 82.3
11------------ 535.1------------ 450.0------------ 85.1
12------------ 550.0------------ 462.5------------ 87.5
13------------ 562.5------------ 473.0------------ 89.5
14------------ 573.0------------ 481.8------------ 91.2
15------------ 581.8------------ 489.2------------ 92.6
16------------ 589.2------------ 495.5------------ 93.8
17------------ 595.5------------ 500.7------------ 94.7
18------------ 600.7------------ 505.2------------ 95.6
19------------ 605.2------------ 508.9------------ 96.3
20------------ 608.9------------ 512.0------------ 96.9
21------------ 612.0------------ 514.6------------ 97.4
22------------ 614.6------------ 516.8------------ 97.8
23------------ 616.8------------ 518.7------------ 98.1
24------------ 618.7------------ 520.3------------ 98.4

Could you do a calc for EOD? Thanks!

[MMC78]

Take a look at this http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=94822

I'm sick of everyone using "parrot" when they don't feel like thier views are what should be used by everyone else............. why not make your point and leave it that?

If you would wait to run Prop E3D or even E4D your blood levels/hormones would be so whacked that your would see many more sides and a lot less in gains........... You could get away with EOD but ED is best and WILL keep blood levels the most stable.

I think you missed my point. I would never recommend someone run prop every 3 or 4 days. When people bring up the possibility of EOD shots, a lot of members tell them to shoot ED without significant justification.

BTW I'm not trying to expouse any views here. I just want to point out that a lot of people seem overly conservative with cycle advice.

[DARKSEID]

It's kind of like how everyone says to use 500mg test-e for their first cycle. Thread parrots repeat this ad nauseam.

I'm just getting sick of the extremely conservative views held on this board recently.[/QUOTE]



If 500mg is too conservative, where do u propose people should be starting at?

[spywizard]

It's kind of like how everyone says to use 500mg test-e for their first cycle. Thread parrots repeat this ad nauseam.

I'm just getting sick of the extremely conservative views held on this board recently.

If 500mg is too conservative, where do u propose people should be starting at?[/QUOTE]
maybe 1-2 grams a week would be better to start a newbie at?? like in BDTR's experiment...

or maybe it's just being prudent............

[hung-solo]

bump! very interesting discussion here

[death-be4-dishonor]

umm i do 2 cc every other day, one cc of prop... and one cc of winny depot. and i have been consistent with that. this is also ma first cycle

[w_rballs]

umm i do 2 cc every other day, one cc of prop... and one cc of winny depot. and i have been consistent with that. this is also ma first cycle

winny has to be shot ED. it has such a short half life that u arent getting everything out of it. switch over to ED and u will like it better.

[NATTY]

umm i do 2 cc every other day, one cc of prop... and one cc of winny depot. and i have been consistent with that. this is also ma first cycle

Umm, you are jacking this thread

[bluethunder]

Well, I think its very prudent to be conservative for a first cycle. You need to see how your body reacts. What if the AAS was bogus or had a bacteria in it? What if the person has a unknown medical condition? It's safe to be not overly zealous and not only that smart too. Just my 2cents.

[MotoLifter]

Umm, you are jacking this thread

I think he is!!!!!! Get em' NATTY!!!!

[jbigdog69]

BTW I'm not trying to expouse any views here. I just want to point out that a lot of people seem overly conservative with cycle advice.

[BeefCakeStew]

What's missing from models like this is the fact that the curve for release vs time as actually fairly dramatically shifted to the left, and, as I mentioned earlier, the rate of metabolization of the unesterified test (or AAS). Graphs that actually show plasma levels vs time (from actual blood samples) show much greater fluctuations

Could you post a link those graphs if you ever run across them again. It would be great to see the comparison. Thanks.

[Steroids101]

BTW I'm not trying to expouse any views here. I just want to point out that a lot of people seem overly conservative with cycle advice.

Better safe than sorry, I for one never want gynocomastia.

[Money Boss Hustla]

If 500mg is too conservative, where do u propose people should be starting at?

I think 500mg is plenty for a first. Personally I needed more...but there was only one way to find out.

[DARKSEID]

I think 500mg is plenty for a first. Personally I needed more...but there was only one way to find out.

It is individual, but going from what your body produces to 500mg, I hardly consider conservative.

[MMC78]

It is individual, but going from what your body produces to 500mg, I hardly consider conservative.

I guess what I'm getting at is that people never suggest 250-400mg. It's always half a gram to start. There are many bodybuilders (friends of mine, europeans and old timers) that grow like a weed on a moderate dose like that.

Then we have people like BDTR that encourage members to bump their doses up to 2 grams a week---based on a sketchy and probably fake study involving two people.

[DARKSEID]

I guess what I'm getting at is that people never suggest 250-400mg. It's always half a gram to start. There are many bodybuilders (friends of mine, europeans and old timers) that grow like a weed on a moderate dose like that.

Then we have people like BDTR that encourage members to bump their doses up to 2 grams a week---based on a sketchy and probably fake study involving two people.

yeah , I see what your getting at, I think everyone just got the impression that you were saying 500mg isn't enough. From personal experience, I have grown off as little as 250mg of test. I use more now, but just stating as an example. I don't think BDTR is encouraging using that much test, the problem is everyone that's reading that thread is not looking into things such as side effects and long term use of those doses, all they see is the guy that took 2grams got big as hell and strong, and now all wanna jump into high dosaging.

[BDTR]

I never said everyone should take 2 grams for their first cycle, I was simply trying to show that more gear = more gains.

Hell, i'd still advocate a lower dose cycle.

BTW, sketchy and fake study? Funny, tell my buddies i was injecting them with olive oil.

You seem to have some problem with me, almost every post mentioning me in fact.

[MMC78]

You seem to have some problem with me, almost every post mentioning me in fact.

I don't have a problem with you. I find a lot of your posts entertaining and educational. I think you may be setting a bad example though:

Remember this thread you started?
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=64600
"As a steroid user, I feel a lot of the negative hype about steroids comes from irresponsible users"

Someone using 2 grams a week for a first cycle is an irresponsible user in my book. A lot of people on this board and others, hang on your every word like gospel.

[BDTR]

I dont consider it irresponsible when the two subjects were both very educated, healthy adults who knew what they were getting into and were supervised by me in their efforts.

I consider some newbie who never worked out eatign 100 dbol tabs a day irresponsible.

[SportsMedVIP]

I don't have a problem with you. I find a lot of your posts entertaining and educational. I think you may be setting a bad example though:

Remember this thread you started?
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=64600
"As a steroid user, I feel a lot of the negative hype about steroids comes from irresponsible users"

Someone using 2 grams a week for a first cycle is an irresponsible user in my book. A lot of people on this board and others, hang on your every word like gospel.

You have some very valid points and I feel you are justified in your feelings on the subject. However it is a small annoyance of mine when people hold one's previous words against them because they aren't exactly what they're saying then. Of course come instances of this are right, i.e.- holding something like I won't cheat on you against your cheating girlfriend. But everything has exceptions. What I'm refering to is the fact that someone whom is experimenting must delve down all paths to find what he considers to be the truth. Just by conducting an expirement and sharing the results does not mean he has that as his personal stance and/or that he advocates anyone else do it. How do you think we find out maximum strentgh for our labels? We overdose the sh*t out of things until we know how much can be taken safely. Then we tell everyone to never take as much as we were forcing unwilling animals to take. I think the beauty of the mind is it's ability to wander everywhere.

[MMC78]

I dont consider it irresponsible when the two subjects were both very educated, healthy adults who knew what they were getting into and were supervised by me in their efforts.

I consider some newbie who never worked out eatign 100 dbol tabs a day irresponsible.

You're missing my point. Your "study" indirectly encourages people to start on high dosages for a first cycle and furthermore encourages others to increase their doses to the professional bodybuilder level.

[SportsMedVIP]

You're missing my point. Your "study" indirectly encourages people to start on high dosages for a first cycle and furthermore encourages others to increase their doses to the professional bodybuilder level.

A valid point. Maybe his position as role model needed to be more thought of. Kinda like rappers. More disclaimers would have helped this. He did already have more than one in there though.

[BDTR]

it's not my fault "what it encourages".

If it showed the gains were the same, i would have posted they were the same. Should i have hid the results because it may be harmful to people by their own choice?

I could see if i said in the post "this is why you should do 2 grams of test a week", but i didn't. All i did was post the results.

You're missing my point. Your "study" indirectly encourages people to start on high dosages for a first cycle and furthermore encourages others to increase their doses to the professional bodybuilder level.

[BDTR]

I'm not a role model, never claimed to be as such. I'm a big meathead who likes illegal anabolic steroids . Hardly a role model.

[daos]

I'm not a role model, never claimed to be as such. I'm a big meathead who likes illegal anabolic steroids. Hardly a role model.

lmao!

seriously though, people do look to you in some instances. of course i dont, but ya know, some people do *sarcasm*...

[SportsMedVIP]

I'm not a role model, never claimed to be as such. I'm a big meathead who likes illegal anabolic steroids. Hardly a role model.

I know exactly what you're saying. And I doubt Eminem asked to be a role model either. He just wanted to do what he loves like yourself. But you can see from another point of view right. look from the eyes of an uneducated new guy on here that's eager to get started. I liked your study myself but I do concur it may steer some in a bad direction. Don't take that the wrong way, I'm just discussing it.

[Consistency]

Anyways back to the question.....

Prop should be shot ED or EOD?? I always read and learned that ED shots are best= most gains and least side effects. How much more sides and less of gains are we talking about (ED vs. EOD) assuming diet and routines are the same.

Anyone run prop ED for one cycle then EOD for another? If so what were the differences?

[einstein1905]

Anyone run prop ED for one cycle then EOD for another? If so what were the differences?

That's not really valid, as one would have to run tons of cycles each way to see a trend. Just like people claiming cyp is better than enanthate or vice versa , because they "got better gains" off one or the other. The differe3nce between ED and EOD will be minor, but the point is one IS better than the other, and when we're doing everything possible to attain our goals, why not optimize every facet of the process?

When people claim to grow better off one brand/ester/compound/you name it, their individual results are more or less meaningless....there are far too many variable that are not constant between cycles to draw a conclusion. Some things are clear though; if the same person were to use 4x the dose, given all else constant, their gains will be greater....that's clear, but it's the much more minor things....the things you may not even be able to notice that are also very important. For instance, a pct with clomid/nolva/adex versus just nolva.....you can't compare two of your own cycles and say, "well, I only lost 3 lbs during pct using both ways"......there are too many other variables at play there. You'll never know how many lbs you would have lost during pct if you were to have just used nolva vs Pheedno's pct....at that point in time, you can only choose one route, and there really is no control you can use. That's why the boards are so valuable.......you have many people contributing to the "sample number", and you really can establish trends. When it's just you comparing a ED vs EOD with a short ester, and you "think" you may have had better results one way over the other, it's still unclear, but when 90% of the people say, "I think I had better results with ED vs EOD", then you have a trend. Most of the recommendations given on this board are based on trends like this. 8 week cycles with long-estered gear are a thing of the past, because it's a very clear trend that 11-12 week cycles with longer-estered gear provide much better results, whereas 8-10 week cycles of prop and acetate esters are more favorable for those compounds