Saw Palmetto and Test Enanthate ? and a FINAL GO

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10-02-2004, 02:55 PM
D00fy

Saw Palmetto and Test Enanthate ? and a FINAL GO

Hey , hows everyone doing???

Heres my question, i have a receeding hairline had it since age 16 or 17 about ,it gets somewhat worse every year.... Got worse last year AGE 20 from i believe stress and smoking to much weed (COLLEGE GAvE ME SOME DEPRESSION) im over it:) dealing with work and school and getting stuff done is CRAZY

Will Saw Palmetto hinder gains from test enanthate ,im running 250mg for 10weeks....... i dont wanna hear dosage opinions on tes enthatet, i dont need 500mg:) I HAVE A HEART MURMUR my cycle will look like this but please comment on the rest of the stuff added on

Also i will be using a 23 g 1inch needle:/ for glutes:)

m1t 10mg week 1-2 for JUMPSTART WEIGHT/STRENGTH
Week 1-10 Test Enanthate 250mg
4ad/1test week 1-8
M5AA 40mg week 7-10 To harden up and solidfy gains
Nolvadex 20mg EOD until end OFF PCT for bloat, and possible reoccuring gyno from previous m1t/4ad
CLomid the typical Schedule after cycle

SAW PALMETTO???? dont want to hinder gains im also thinking of getting LIQUID PROPECIA possibly what do you think?

Protein Sources-Whey Protein, 2% Milk,Tuna,Chicken Breast, Steak and whatever college food offers
Carbs -Bananas, whole Wheat Bread,Oatmeal,veggies
Fat- Natural Peanut Butter, Olive Oil,

Supplements- Pro Liver (MILK THRISTLE +Nac) ,Vitamins, Ginger to help with digestive enyzimes, Crannyberry juice,

THANK YOU
D00fy
1
10-02-2004, 09:20 PM
D00fy

B U M P
10-03-2004, 05:33 AM
weightshead

Quote:

Originally Posted by D00fy

Will Saw Palmetto hinder gains from test enanthate ,im running 250mg for 10weeks....... i dont wanna hear dosage opinions on tes enthatet, i dont need 500mg:)

if you dont need 500mg of test why bother with m1t/1test/4ad? i think there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to go for poor test substitutes or test precursors when your shooting the real thing anyway!?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by D00fy

m1t 10mg week 1-2 for JUMPSTART WEIGHT/STRENGTH
Week 1-10 Test Enanthate 250mg
4ad/1test week 1-8
M5AA 40mg week 7-10 To harden up and solidfy gains
Nolvadex 20mg EOD until end OFF PCT for bloat, and possible reoccuring gyno from previous m1t/4ad
CLomid the typical Schedule after cycle

there's no real need to "jumpstart" either, its your call but i really dont think that its going to make a difference to how much you've gained in LBM or strength once the cycle's finished.

after one very successful PH cycle (4ad/1ad) i can honestly say i dont think they're a good thing, i also found the lethargy from 4ad/1ad appalling, but you'd probably find 250mg enan would counter that quite well.

but at the end of the day i'd much rather be shooting human grade test...
10-03-2004, 07:08 AM
D00fy

:) thanks for your opinion
10-03-2004, 07:34 AM
D00fy

Good call on the lethargy i wasn't thinking about that when i typed the proposed cycle up , if not il probably will bump the dosage to 500mg and probably get some eq ........But dont wanna flare up to much in weight ,..... STUPID COCKSUCKING BASEBALL TEAM and Basket Ball Team always on my case on "U ON JUICE" or some bs, so i dont wanna add to much for them to be like y0 hook me up with some test, those stupid ****ers.........:) dont them idiots know NCAA drug test:)
10-03-2004, 09:14 AM
shiloh

Go for a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor.
10-03-2004, 10:24 AM
weightshead

Quote:

Originally Posted by D00fy

Good call on the lethargy i wasn't thinking about that when i typed the proposed cycle up , if not il probably will bump the dosage to 500mg and probably get some eq ........But dont wanna flare up to much in weight ,..... STUPID COCKSUCKING BASEBALL TEAM and Basket Ball Team always on my case on "U ON JUICE" or some bs, so i dont wanna add to much for them to be like y0 hook me up with some test, those stupid ****ers.........:) dont them idiots know NCAA drug test:)

consider adding in 0.25mg ED of anastrozole to help keep off some of the weight caused by high estrogen/water retention.
10-03-2004, 03:01 PM
D00fy

5-alpha reductase inhibitor. ?????
10-03-2004, 03:11 PM
956Vette

Quote:

Originally Posted by D00fy

5-alpha reductase inhibitor. ?????

that is referring to finasteride (for example)....
10-03-2004, 03:37 PM
D00fy

:) whats a good dosage to run finasteride at ? 1mg a day or .25mg ed????
10-03-2004, 04:18 PM
shiloh

In one study, finasteride at 5mg/day blocked about 60% of test's conversion to DHT.
10-03-2004, 04:22 PM
D00fy

how does that effect the gains,?
10-03-2004, 05:21 PM
shiloh

In this study, test levels were increased by 15%. So this might counteract the loss of DHT. However, even if gains are effected a little, I would much rather decrease the sides of a cycle than be picky about a couple of pounds. Also, since there is a marked decrease in LH and FSH, it might be a good idea to lay off of propecia during PCT to allow clomid to do its job.

Effects of the 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride on serum levels of gonadal, adrenal, and hypophyseal hormones and its clinical significance: a prospective clinical study.

Uygur MC, Arik AI, Altug U, Erol D.

Urology Clinic of the Ministry of Health, Ankara Hospital, Turkey.

In the present study, we investigated the effects of a steroid 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor, finasteride, when given orally (5 mg/day), on the serum levels of gonadal, hypophyseal, and adrenal hormones and the clinical significance of these effects. Forty-eight patients with a mean age of 63 (range 49-81) were included in the study. All patients had symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia. Serum levels of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH), prolactin, aldosterone, cortisol, and dehydroepiandrosterone were determined before the study. The degree of symptoms in each patient and serum prostate specific antigen levels were determined together with uroflowmetric studies. Sexual status of the patients was also assessed with a self-administered questionnaire. All patients received finasteride, 5 mg/day, for 6 weeks. All of the above mentioned studies were repeated at month 3 and month 6. All of the patients had baseline hormonal values within the normal range. At month 3, the dihydrotestosterone level decreased by 60%, while the testosterone level increased by 15%. FSH and LH levels decreased by 24% and 16%, respectively. The changes in the serum levels of these hormones were further evident at month 6. No significant changes were noted in the serum levels of prolactin, aldosterone, cortisol, and dehydroepiandrosterone. Thirty-six patients (75%) were judged to be potent before the treatment. Finasteride caused erectile dysfunction in 8 patients (22%) by month 3 and in 12 (33%) by month 6. A substantial improvement was noted in symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia in all patients. The serum prostate specific antigen level decreased by 42% and 50% at month 3 and at month 6, respectively. Continued administration of finasteride, 5 mg/day alters the serum levels of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, FSH, and LH significantly. Finasteride also causes sexual dysfunction in a substantial number of patients and should be offered with caution to patients who have an active sexual life.
10-03-2004, 07:21 PM
MMC78

Quote:

Originally Posted by D00fy

:) whats a good dosage to run finasteride at ? 1mg a day or .25mg ed????

1mg / day to prevent hairloss (DHT at the scalp). The 5mg dosage (Proscar) is intended for treating prostate problems (additional variants of 5-ar enzyme). Disregard the above study.
10-03-2004, 07:47 PM
KAEW44

Saw Palmetto will work but u have to take consistently for a while. I would combne saw palmetto with propecia..get the liquid propecia from research labs its much cheaper. Hairloss really sucks, and if u really want to help stop it and even reverse it then u must attack from as many angles as u can. MMC78's approach i think is the best because i used it and its great.....teh apporach is Nizoral 2%shampoo daily, minoxidil 5% and propecia. Nizoral isnt expensive and minoxidil and propecia can be bought generic for very cheap.
10-03-2004, 08:26 PM
shiloh

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMC78

1mg / day to prevent hairloss (DHT at the scalp). The 5mg dosage (Proscar) is intended for treating prostate problems (additional variants of 5-ar enzyme). Disregard the above study.

Incorrect. The point of taking finasteride during a cycle is to limit the amount of serum DHT that is produced while on AAS. The rise in DHT is what speeds up the hairloss process for people taking steroids. Now, if you are taking propecia for the treatment of male pattern baldness than 1mg/day is the optimal dose. However, while taking steroids, that dose will do little if anything. This is why dutasteride is the drug of choice while on cycle. It blocks 30% more DHT (90-94%) at a tenth of the dose (.5mg/day) so as to minimize a decrease in libido.
10-03-2004, 10:57 PM
bignatt

You should go buy a topical shampoo ......Nizoral perhaps
10-03-2004, 11:13 PM
MMC78

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiloh

IHowever, while taking steroids, that dose will do little if anything.

Bull****. Show me one study that supports this. I can show you Merck studies that demonstrate that .25mg is 75% as effective as 1mg at controlling DHT at the scalp.

Quote:

This is why dutasteride is the drug of choice while on cycle. It blocks 30% more DHT (90-94%) at a tenth of the dose (.5mg/day) so as to minimize a decrease in libido.

This is a patently idiotic statement. Nothing you've written suggets that Dut is easier on the libido, to the contrary the extremely low DHT levels would result in more of a libido loss as demonstrated in merck studies.
10-04-2004, 04:30 AM
shiloh

In the previous study which you disregarded by saying that the 5mg dose is only used for benign prostatic hyperplasia…… here is part of another study using that dose for hairloss:

Phase II trials of Dutasteride showed that after six month of treatment, the hair counts measured in a 1 inch diameter circle increased by an average 96 hairs with 0.5mg Dutasteride, compared to an average 72 hairs with 5mg Propecia (Finasteride).
So these initial trials show that Dutasteride is around 30% more effective than Propecia in promoting hair regrowth.

Why do you think that is? ^^^ Because it is more effective at blocking… stay with me now… D H T.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMC78

Bull****. Show me one study that supports this.

Obviously there are no studies on propecia's effect while on steroids. Sometimes you have to incorperate a little common sense. Img/day is the dose used on normal (not on cycle) people with normal levels of test and DHT. What do you think increases hairloss while on steroids???

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMC78

I can show you Merck studies that demonstrate that .25mg is 75% as effective as 1mg at controlling DHT at the scalp.

So what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMC78

This is a patently idiotic statement. Nothing you've written suggets that Dut is easier on the libido, to the contrary the extremely low DHT levels would result in more of a libido loss as demonstrated in merck studies.

You couldn't be more wrong if you went back and tried again. The loss of libido has been shown in numerous studies to be dose dependent not DHT dependent. Since I need to spell everything out for you, here is one of those studies. Pay special attention to the bold print.

EFFECTIVE SUPPRESSION OF DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE (DHT) BY DUTASTERIDE, A NOVEL, DUAL 5 ALPHA REDUCTASE INHIBITOR.

Richard V Clark, David J Hermann, Hoda Gabriel, Timothy H Wilson, Betsy B Morrill, and Stuart Hobbs.
Research Triangle Park, NC (presented by Dr. Clark)

INTRODUCTION AND OBJECTIVES

DHT is formed from testosterone (T) by Type 1 and Type 2 5 a reductase enzyme (5AR). DHT plays a key role
in the development and progression of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). Dutasteride is the first dual inhibitor of both 5AR isozymes. We compared hormonal effects of dutasteride with placebo and finasteride, a Type 2 5AR inhibitor.

METHODS

One group of 53 subjects was studied for 4 weeks and received dutasteride at 0.1, 0.5, 2.5, 5.0mg and 2.5mg
with a 40mg loading dose, placebo, or 5mg finasteride daily. A second group of 313 subjects was studied for 24 weeks and received dutasteride at 0.01, 0.05, 0.5, 2.5, or 5.0mg, placebo, or 5mg finasteride daily. Studies
were randomized, double blinded, with a parallel group design. All subjects had BPH, prostate volume >= 30ml
or IPSS >= 8. Dutasteride groups were compared to placebo and finasteride by a general linear model with
pairwise comparisons, and a sigmoid Emax model for DHT dose response.

RESULTS

Dutasteride suppressed DHT in dose related fashion with maximal suppression >= 95% at the 5.0mg dose. The lowest maximally effective dose was 0.5mg, with 90% DHT suppression at 4 wks, increasing to 94% at 24 wks, while finasteride suppressed DHT by 67% and 76% respectively. T rose in conjunction with DHT suppression, ranging from 9 to 27%, but mean T levels with both dutasteride and finasteride remained within the normal range.
Laboratory studies and ECG's remained normal during the studies. Adverse events were typical, non-specific
events and were reported at comparable rates to placebo for both compounds, except for decreased libido with 5.0mg dutasteride and finasteride.

CONCLUSIONS

Dutasteride, a dual inhibitor of 5AR, achieved significantly greater suppression of DHT with less subject
variability compared to finasteride. The increase in T at maximally effective doses of dutasteride was not
considered clinically significant as mean T levels remained in the normal range. Dutasteride was well tolerated at all dose levels studied with a safety profile comparable to placebo except for a mild decrease in libido also noted with finasteride. The consistent and increased suppression of DHT by dutasteride may show greater clinical benefit in the treatment of BPH. This is currently being investigated with the 0.5mg dose in large-scale phase III clinical trials.
10-04-2004, 04:47 AM
D00fy

dam look what I started:(
10-04-2004, 05:18 AM
shiloh

I'm sorry D00fy, I'm digressing. While taking AAS, the increase in test allows for more test to be converted into DHT causing an increase in the rate hairloss. If this conversion is hindered before it takes place than the effect of an increase rate of hairloss due to AAS is stopped before it starts. This is the effect that we are looking for... minimizing the sides... not treating male pattern baldness. This is why you want a more powerful 5-alpha reductase inhibitor like dutasteride or an increased dose of finasteride. I recommend dutasteride @ .5mg/day while on cycle
10-04-2004, 05:29 AM
KAEW44

The almighty phdeeno who we all follow PCT advice from posted his own cycle not very long ago in which he preffered to go 2mg of propecia/finasteride daily during the cycle probably for incresed DHT reducing effect, i dotn know if there's any proof this works but doubling up the dose wont really increase sides and wont really hinder gains either, and the cost of research lab generic makes it affordable to double up during the cycle and PCT.
Dutasteride is pretty new compared to propecia, and very little research has been done on it when it comes to sides and long term results, also the lack of widely available generics makes it a hell of an expensive alternative, its actually cheaper to go 5mg daily propecia than to go brand name Avodart-dutasteride.
When dutasteride is widely available in generic from research labs and other means then i support it all the way since u cant go wrong with blocking both types of DHT, but until that happens finasteride is more affordable for someone who will be using it allyear round.
I know of only one research lab that sells generic dutasteride and its still not cheap at all.
10-04-2004, 05:54 AM
shiloh

True, dutasteride is more expensive @ $195 per cycle if running it at .5mg/day. IMO it is worth it if on cycle. Not only to reduce hairloss but since, like you said, type I 5-alpha reductase is also inhibited, it makes it a very promising treatment for acne as well. Although there has been no studies on this.
10-04-2004, 01:01 PM
MMC78

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiloh

Phase II trials of Dutasteride showed that after six month of treatment, the hair counts measured in a 1 inch diameter circle increased by an average 96 hairs with 0.5mg Dutasteride, compared to an average 72 hairs with 5mg Propecia (Finasteride).
So these initial trials show that Dutasteride is around 30% more effective than Propecia in promoting hair regrowth.

Why do you think that is? ^^^ Because it is more effective at blocking… stay with me now… D H T.

I have 2 problems with your original post:
1. That you must take a stronger 5-ar inhibitor than finasteride to see any benefits while on steroids
2. That dutasteride, because it requires a lower mg dose has fewer side effects

Dutasteride Clinical Side effects 0.5mg/day:
http://www.dutasteride.org/dutasteri...ide_safety.htm

Propecia Clinical Side effects 1mg/day:
http://www.propecia.com/propecia/sha...cuments/pi.pdf

A few examples:
% chance of libido loss placebo/drug
finasteride: 1.3%/1.8%
dutasteride: 2%/3%

% chace of inpotence
finasteride: 0.7%/1.3%
dutasteride: 3%/5%

The side effects associated with Dutasteride are at least if not more pronounced than with 1mg/day with finasteride.

Question: Assume (for discussions sake) that during a cycle of steroids, free and total testosterone is around 4x normal levels. About wow much finasteride should I take to maintain the same level of DHT suppression as someone not on steroids?
10-04-2004, 04:59 PM
techlifter_2

a) MMC78 & shiloh are both licensed and practicing medicine in the scientific field of male pattern baldness.

b) MMC78 & shiloh are veteran anabolic users who sufer from hair loss and have maniacally researched this topic in a supreme effort to retain their hair.

c) MMC78 & shiloh are extremely gifted bull-****ters capable of fixating my attention on a topic, such as hair loss, that I don't give a **** about. (If so, kudos)

d) MMC78 & shiloh obviously aren't going to agree on this subject and each should state their final opinion in two sentences, then we shall decide who is right.
10-04-2004, 05:14 PM
MMC78

Quote:

Originally Posted by techlifter_2

a) MMC78 & shiloh are both licensed and practicing medicine in the scientific field of male pattern baldness.

Nope, but I am a published scientist.

Quote:

b) MMC78 & shiloh are veteran anabolic users who sufer from hair loss and have maniacally researched this topic in a supreme effort to retain their hair.

Still natural, never touched a steroid

Quote:

c) MMC78 & shiloh are extremely gifted bull-****ters capable of fixating my attention on a topic, such as hair loss, that I don't give a **** about. (If so, kudos)

Then don't read the thread. No one is forcing you to be here.

Quote:

d) MMC78 & shiloh obviously aren't going to agree on this subject and each should state their final opinion in two sentences, then we shall decide who is right.

Ok, here is my final opinion:
Techlifter_2 is a troll. Fvck off.

And BTW nice first post.
10-05-2004, 04:56 PM
shiloh

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMC78

Dutasteride Clinical Side effects 0.5mg/day:
http://www.dutasteride.org/dutasteri...ide_safety.htm

Propecia Clinical Side effects 1mg/day:
http://www.propecia.com/propecia/sha...cuments/pi.pdf

A few examples:
% chance of libido loss placebo/drug
finasteride: 1.3%/1.8%
dutasteride: 2%/3%

% chace of inpotence
finasteride: 0.7%/1.3%
dutasteride: 3%/5%

The side effects associated with Dutasteride are at least if not more pronounced than with 1mg/day with finasteride.

I am glad we are moving to a more civilized style of debating. :)

You are correct that half the dose of dutasteride yields similar side effects. (based on your numbers the occurrence of libido loss and impotence: 1mg/day of finasteride 1.38 x and 1.85 x the occurrence than from placebo respectively; .5mg/day of dutasteride 1.5 x and 1.66 x the occurrence than from placebo respectively) So at the dosages you specified, finasteride has a higher likelihood of impotence and dutasteride has a higher likelihood of libido loss, when compared to placebo. This is not a fair comparison, however, because at these dosages, dutasteride suppresses much more DHT. However, 1mg/day is not the most effective why to utilize finasteride for the purpose of DHT suppression. It would be more accurate to compare 5mg/day finasteride with .5mg/day dutasteride. At 5mg/day of finasteride the sides are more pronounced yet there is still not as much (20-30% less) DHT suppression as with .5mg/day of dutasteride.

The accepted dosage of 1mg/day was derived from studies testing the pros (hair growth) vs. the cons (side effects) of different dosages. It was found that 1mg/day was ideal in that 5mg/day didn’t have a significantly different positive effect on hair growth (in men with normal amounts of DHT) vs. its increase in sides to warrant its use for MPB. These studies, however, were more concerned with hair growth than with DHT suppression. So it seems that 1mg/day blocked just enough DHT in the normal (not on cycle) man to yield desired effects.
The dosage of 5mg/day was derived by the same methods, however the desired effect (pros) was maximum effective DHT suppression at the minimal effective dose (used for benign prostatic hyperplasia). It was found that 5mg/day was the most effective dosage in suppressing DHT in respect to side effects. So, more than 5mg/day might suppress more DHT, but not enough to warrant use when weighed again side effects. Ironically, the studies that are of most use to us are the ones used for benign prostatic hyperplasia, not male pattern baldness even though keeping our hair is one of our main objectives. This is because the majority of studies dealing with MPB use hair growth, not DHT suppression, as the testable factor. Now if there were studies using the hair growth factor on subjects on AAS, then they would be the most relevant and useful to use. However, this does not seem to be the case so we must rely on seemingly irrelevant studies to estimate the drugs desired effect on us (bodybuilders). Maybe I was too quick to say that 1mg/day would be ineffective but since maximum DHT suppression is our desired result, than it would seem that 5mg/day is the most effective dose. Now, I am somewhat speculating because I have yet to see if higher doses would be significantly more effective in the event of exogenous testosterone being introduced into our system. But until I do, I will use the most effective method of suppression, dutasteride.

Many people think that this much suppression of DHT will significantly decrease gains while on cycle. I hypothesize that is not the case because of the following reasons: The increased binding affinity of DHT in some tissue is not seen in skeletal muscle; skeletal muscle does not have very much 5-alpha reductase at all. So, IMO, blocking 5-alpha reductase from converting test to DHT will have little effect on skeletal muscle. One aspect that might slightly hinder gains is that DHT has about 4 times the binding affinity to SHBG than testosterone. So it seems to me that the freeing up more SHBG for test to attach itself to might decrease free testosterone. Being that our test levels are elevated so much while on cycle, I don’t think this effect will be noticed. However this is all, of coarse, speculation. Take the following studies with a grain of salt since their relevance is not conclusive. Pay attention to the bold print.

Androgen treatment of middle-aged, obese men: effects on metabolism, muscle and adipose tissues.

Marin P, Krotkiewski M, Bjorntorp P.

Department of Medicine I, Sahlgren's Hospital, University of Goteborg, Sweden.

OBJECTIVES: This pilot investigation was conducted to explore the relationship between androgens and glucose tolerance in obese men and to select an optimal mode for androgen treatment. METHODS: For exploratory purposes, testosterone (T) or dihydrotestosterone (DHT) were given in different doses and preparations for different periods of time to obese, middle-aged men. The administration forms were selected in order to by-pass the liver. In the first two studies T was given as a single intramuscular injection of 250 or 500 mg and the results evaluated after 1 week. In two subsequent studies testosterone was administered in moderate doses either as oral T undecanoate or a T and DHT in preparations applied on the skin for transdermal absorption for 6 weeks and 3 months respectively. Before and after treatment the following examinations were performed: glucose tolerance tests with insulin determinations or euglycemic clamps at submaximal insulin levels. Anthropometric measurements including the waist/hip circumference ratio and estimations of body fat and lean body mass (from measurements of whole body potassium content) were performed. Plasma triglyceride and cholesterol concentrations, liver function tests and blood pressure were followed. Physical examination including the prostate was performed before and after study. Muscle function, glycogen synthase and morphology were examined in the 3-month study. RESULTS: Administration of T was followed by moderate increases of circulating T concentrations in all studies, except after injection of 500 mg, where large increases were seen. Follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone levels decreased consistently. Injection of 500 mg T resulted in a decreased glucose tolerance. In the other treatment groups, plasma insulin decreased or glucose disappearance rate increased in clamp measurements, suggesting improved insulin sensitivity. This was most pronounced in men with relative hypogonadism from the outset. In the study of 3 months duration, a decrease in the waist/hip ratio, without a change in body fat mass, was also seen. Plasma lipids, liver function tests and blood pressure did not change. Muscle strength, the fractional velocity of glycogen synthase as well as the percentage and diameter of type IIB fibres increased after T treatment. No adverse effects were seen. 17 -beta oestradiol concentrations were unaltered and DHT administration was less effective than T, suggesting that T rather than derivatives of this hormone was mainly responsible for the effects observed. CONCLUSION: The results suggest that T administration to middle-aged, obese man may have beneficial effects

Comparison of the receptor binding properties of nandrolone and testosterone under in vitro and in vivo conditions.

Bergink EW, Janssen PS, Turpijn EW, van der Vies J.

Previous in vitro binding studies with androgen receptors in rat seminal vesicles (Toth M. and Zakar T., J. steroid Biochem. 17 (1982) 653-660) have shown that the difference in the effects of nandrolone (N) and testosterone (T) is caused by the fact that 5 alpha-reduction increases the affinity of T and decreases the affinity of N. We confirmed this result using androgen receptors in rat prostate and intact human MCF-7 cells. We also analysed the receptor binding properties of N, T, dihydronandrolone (DHN) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in vivo following a combined 2-h infusion of a physiological dose of [3H]T and the same dose of [3H]N in castrated male rats, which permitted a direct comparison of the accumulation of [3H]N, [3H]T, [3H]DHN and [3H]DHT in different sub-cellular fractions of various tissues. There was a considerable accumulation of radioactivity in the liver, but no retention of active compounds. In the prostate there was a preferential retention of [3H]DHT over [3H] DHN in the receptor fractions whereas in thymus, spleen and muscular tissues [3H]N and [3H]T were retained in equal amounts. The kidney showed a preferential retention of [3H]N over [3H]T. The present results explain the relatively strong effect of nandrolone compared to that of testosterone on target tissues devoid of 5 alpha-reductase activity (e.g. muscular tissue) compared to its relatively weak effect on tissues with a relatively high 5 alpha-reductase content (e.g. prostate).
10-06-2004, 06:56 AM
shiloh

This study might help shed some light on whether dutasteride hinders gains. Unfotunatly it's scheduled to end in June 2005 so we will have to wait for the results. :frown:

The Effect of 5-alpha Reductase on Testosterone in Men

This study is currently recruiting patients.

Sponsored by

National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (NICHD)
Purpose

The enzyme 5-alpha reductase is present in small amounts in muscle and converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Testosterone affects lean body tissue, muscle size, muscle strength, and sexual function in men. This study will evaluate how 5-alpha reductase influences the effects of testosterone in young healthy men.

Condition Treatment or Intervention Phase
Sex Disorders
Drug: testosterone enanthate
Drug: duastride
Phase III

MedlinePlus related topics: Male Genital Disorders; Reproductive Health

Study Type: Interventional
Study Design: Treatment, Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo Control, Parallel Assignment, Safety/Efficacy Study

Official Title: The Role of 5-alpha Reductase in Mediating Testosterone Actions

Further Study Details:

Expected Total Enrollment: 184

Study start: August 2003; Study completion: June 2005

Testosterone, the predominant circulating androgen in men, serves as the active hormone in some target tissues; however, testosterone effects in other target organs require its conversion to two active metabolites, estradiol 17-beta and DHT. The role of 5-alpha reductase in mediating testosterone's effects on muscle and sexual function remains unclear. This study will determine whether 5-alpha reduction of testosterone to DHT is necessary for mediating effects on fat-free mass, muscle size, muscle strength, and leg power in men. The study will also evaluate the necessity of 5-alpha reductase for maintenance of androgen effects on sexual function (sexual desire, overall sexual activity, nocturnal penile tumescence [NPT], response to visual erotic stimulus, and penile rigidity) in men.

Participants in this study will be treated with a drug to suppress endogenous testosterone production. Participants will then be randomly assigned to receive either testosterone and placebo or testosterone and the 5-alpha reductase inhibitor duasteride. Testosterone will be administered weekly; duasteride and placebo will both be administered daily. Diet and exercise will be standardized across both groups. Participants will be assessed at study entry and Week 20. Assessments will include measurements such as a DEXA scan, MRI scan, and muscle performance and sexual function tests. Participants will also have blood tests for safety monitoring; blood tests will include measures of hematocrit, liver enzymes (AST and ALT), prostate specific antigen (PSA), and cholesterol.

Eligibility

Ages Eligible for Study: 21 Years - 40 Years, Genders Eligible for Study: Male

Accepts Healthy Volunteers

Criteria

Inclusion Criteria

General good health and capable of undergoing strength testing
Normal testosterone (300-1100 ng/dL), LH, and FSH levels
Exclusion Criteria

Currently participating in competitive sports
Mental state that would preclude complete understanding of the protocol and compliance
Disorder known to cause or be associated with hypogonadism (e.g., pituitary tumors, hyperprolactinemia, HIV infection, or Klinefelter's Syndrome)
More than 20% over ideal body weight
Disabilities that would prevent participation in strength testing (e.g., amputation of limbs, blindness, severe arthritis, angina, or neurologic disorders such as Parkinson's disease, stroke, or myopathy)
Uncontrolled hypertension, diabetes, congestive heart failure, or chronic obstructive lung disease
Alcohol or drug dependence in the 6 months prior to study entry
Disorders that might be exacerbated by androgen treatment (e.g., benign prostatic hyperplasia or prostate cancer, erythrocytosis [hematocrit > 51% at baseline], or sleep apnea assessed by Berlin's questionnaire)
Serum PSA levels > 4 microg/L
AST, ALT, or alkaline phosphatase elevation greater than three times the upper limit of normal
Creatinine greater than 2 mg/dL
Medications that might affect muscle or bone metabolism (e.g., glucocorticoid, rhGH, androgenic steroids, oral androgen precursors such as androstenedione or DHEA) or androgen metabolism, action, or clearance (e.g., dilantin, phenobarbitol, aldactone, flutamide, finasteride)

Location and Contact Information

California
Charles R. Drew University, Los Angeles, California, 90059, United States; Recruiting
Shalender Bhasin, MD 323-563-9353

Study chairs or principal investigators

Shalender Bhasin, MD, Principal Investigator, Charles R. Drew University
10-09-2004, 01:04 PM
shiloh

Posted this study in another thread a little while ago and thought it might have some relevence here. The dosage for both meds are obviously way more than you or I would take. I am assuming "intact" means that the dogs were alive but I can't make a dosage comparison without knowing what kind of dogs were used (to estimate the kg). However, this study was used to estimate the effects of using both finasteride and arimidex on humans so I would think that this study has relevence. The text in bold print is what I'm worried about. Any opinions on this...

Effect of dual inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase and aromatase on spontaneously developed canine prostatic hypertrophy.

Suzuki K, Okazaki H, Ono Y, Kurokawa K, Suzuki T, Onuma E, Takanashi H, Mamiya Y, Yamanaka H.

Department of Urology, Gunma University School of Medicine, Maebashi, Japan. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Our aim was to assess the effect of dual inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase and aromatase on prostate glands. METHODS: We investigated the morphological changes in the prostate gland and the changes in the hormonal environment after administration of finasteride and arimidex to intact canine specimens. The study consisted of four groups: a 5-alpha-reductase only group (5RI only, n = 5); a 5RI plus aromatase-inhibitor combination group (5RI + ARI combination, n = 5); a BPH control group (n = 3); and a castration control group (n = 3). Finasteride (1 mg/kg/day) and the same dose of arimidex were orally administered for 80 days. RESULTS: In the 5RI group, a significant decrease in the serum dihydrotestosterone (DHT) level was found, and prostatic volume was significantly decreased. However, significant increases in serum testosterone (T) and DHT levels were observed, with a concomitant increase in prostatic volume in the 5RI + ARI combination group. Morphometric analysis showed that histopathological findings in the 5RI + ARI combination group were similar to those in the BPH control group. CONCLUSIONS: Dual inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase and aromatase resulted in a significant increase in prostate volume, accompanied by a 3-10-fold increase in serum testosterone levels and a significant increase in testicular volume.
04-21-2009, 02:16 PM
neuf80

Geez, I'm not gonna get into that much detail....I was just gonna say I'd go with the saw palmetto. Finasteride is good, but the saw palmetto covers more bases. You do need to take it for a while, but you'd be taking it for a while anyway.
04-21-2009, 04:53 PM
DS21

Quote:

Originally Posted by neuf80

Geez, I'm not gonna get into that much detail....I was just gonna say I'd go with the saw palmetto. Finasteride is good, but the saw palmetto covers more bases. You do need to take it for a while, but you'd be taking it for a while anyway.

That was a good read, but it is 5 years old. I think the OP figured out if he should use Saw Palmetto or something else.
05-18-2009, 05:30 PM
D00fy

LOL of course i figured it out :)

now i take propecia for thinning, receeding hairline, Rogaine 5% 2x daily, and shampoos thanks to test e and the increase test and lack of dht blockers at the time i result it some serious hairloss during and after the cycles, oh well.... now i just got a good tan to make up for the receeding hairline :P