check out my silly idea (all constructive flames welcome)

[justaname]

ok so here is what I am planning to try... I am planning on (mostly for experimental purposes) taking the whole short cycle concept to a new level....I am going to take either dbol or winny or perhaps both 40-60mg every fourth day for 6 months. Now let me say why...I am sick of the roller coaster of cycling the great gains and then loses and the sexaul side effects post cycle...I dont really need to be any bigger than I am now I just want to maintain my current physique and I know if I dont take any gear I will slowly lose the 15 or 20 lbs of muscle that is past my natural potential. I figure 1 on 3 off should be sufficent to maintain natural test production and keep me where I want to be plus not be too hard on my liver...SO what is everyones opinion? Any better ideas for acheiving the same goal??

[magicstick2003]

im not sure why you are picking dbol or winny for this... i dont like the idea but hey it's your body...i would do something with prop but i dont know what you would really get out of E4D injects... PLUS with proper pct diet and training there should be no reason you will lose everything you gained off your cycle...

[billy_ba]

Let em get this straight, youre tired of running cycles because of the sides but you want to take gear because you want to maintain what you have? This really dosent make sense. with gear you have to keep the levels even in you bloodstream, you wont get good results compared to a proper cycle and you will probably be very emotional from the up and down hormone levels. If you just want to maintain your current size, change your diet around.

[scotttiger54]

ok so here is what I am planning to try... I am planning on (mostly for experimental purposes) taking the whole short cycle concept to a new level....I am going to take either dbol or winny or perhaps both 40-60mg every fourth day for 6 months. Now let me say why...I am sick of the roller coaster of cycling the great gains and then loses and the sexaul side effects post cycle...I dont really need to be any bigger than I am now I just want to maintain my current physique and I know if I dont take any gear I will slowly lose the 15 or 20 lbs of muscle that is past my natural potential. I figure 1 on 3 off should be sufficent to maintain natural test production and keep me where I want to be plus not be too hard on my liver...SO what is everyones opinion? Any better ideas for acheiving the same goal??

i think that doing what you proposed would be described as nothing but purely ridiculous.

[scotttiger54]

but of course i mean this in a constructive way

[itsallmental]

thats a horrible idea man, your gonna mess yourself up doing that. your not gonna have testosterone production for those 6 months+the time coming off. your blood levels will also be fukked up.

how much do you weigh bro? this isnt a flame but, what you have in that avatar could be attained naturally with hard work.

[justaname]

thats a horrible idea man, your gonna mess yourself up doing that. your not gonna have testosterone production for those 6 months+the time coming off. your blood levels will also be fukked up.

how much do you weigh bro? this isnt a flame but, what you have in that avatar could be attained naturally with hard work.

here is my logic dbol halflife is about 4-5 hours winny is around 9 hours. So the drugs would be essentially out of your system in one day. So you have 2-3 days where there are not huge amounts of extra androgens shuting down your test production. And Natural test production wont shut down in one day
so why would I have no test production for those 6 months?
I have read numerous places that positve nitrogen balance is achieved within hours of oral administration of dbol and or winny so I assume that means you are getting positive anabolic action almost immediatly so if you figure over the course of 6 months you will have around 50 such days there should be a cummulative effect assuming the natural test levels dont drop too low. maybe every five days would be better I dont know. Is my logic tragically flawed somehow??
as for the how much do I wiegh... wieght itself means very little I am 184 right now but you have to understand I have the bone structure of a canary and the musculature to match. I top out at around 170 training naturally unless I get fat. But with decent definition its 170. I trained for 10 years and gained 40 lbs of muscle but couldnt go any further even with good nutrition solid training and plenty of rest. So I did a couple cycles and gained a solid 20 more. I then continued to train hard and well and eat right and slowly but surely over the course of a couple years I lost all but about 4 pounds of what I had gained.

[AandF6969]

So I did a couple cycles and gained a solid 20 more. I then continued to train hard and well and eat right and slowly but surely over the course of a couple years I lost all but about 4 pounds of what I had gained.

Apparently youre not eating enough calories to maintain your bodyweight. Simple biology.

Calorie intake > Calorie needs = Gain weight
Calorie intake = Calorie needs = Maintain weight
Calorie intake < Caloire needs = Lose weight

Of course the kind of weight that you gain/lose will be determined by the macronutrients that you take in.

[Soldier of Misfortune]

Apparently youre not eating enough calories to maintain your bodyweight. Simple biology.

Calorie intake > Calorie needs = Gain weight
Calorie intake = Calorie needs = Maintain weight
Calorie intake < Caloire needs = Lose weight

Of course the kind of weight that you gain/lose will be determined by the macronutrients that you take in.

This much is true, not only did we work on this all summer, but I am taking several college courses on this subject and everyone of them has this equation. There must be some kind of relavance.

[justaname]

Apparently youre not eating enough calories to maintain your bodyweight. Simple biology.

Calorie intake > Calorie needs = Gain weight
Calorie intake = Calorie needs = Maintain weight
Calorie intake < Caloire needs = Lose weight

Of course the kind of weight that you gain/lose will be determined by the macronutrients that you take in.

I agree with the equation %100 however the last part is just plain incorrect the kind of wieght you gain is determined by much more than the composition of the food you take in.

[joevette]

You're 15-20lbs over your genetic limit! Bro, you only weigh 185 at 6'. You should be able to gain 15 more lbs naturally let alone just maintain what you've got.

[unclemoney]

........... What I say is what is up with your diet? Please tell me you take whey protein, if not theirs a good place to start and also how many calories and grams of protein are you getting ed? If I was stuck with having to go natural for the rest of my life with whey protein/creatine/multi-vit's I could still make decent gains... Of course nothing on a large scale but I would continualy keep on going up.

[Jackman]

........... What I say is what is up with your diet? Please tell me you take whey protein, if not theirs a good place to start and also how many calories and grams of protein are you getting ed? If I was stuck with having to go natural for the rest of my life with whey protein/creatine/multi-vit's I could still make decent gains... Of course nothing on a large scale but I would continualy keep on going up.

well actually eventionally you would stop when you get to your natural peak.

[justaname]

........... What I say is what is up with your diet? Please tell me you take whey protein, if not theirs a good place to start and also how many calories and grams of protein are you getting ed? If I was stuck with having to go natural for the rest of my life with whey protein/creatine/multi-vit's I could still make decent gains... Of course nothing on a large scale but I would continualy keep on going up.

I take in between 200 and 300 grams of protien daily mostly from beef and eggs with at least two protien shakes included as well. I take in typically between 2500 and 3000 calories it depends of course on what I am doing whether I am trying to bulk or cut. if I go higher than for very long I get fat and lose my definition. If I am juicing those numbers go up of course.

[justaname]

so lets just assume what I say is true my genetic limit sucks on ice and my training and diet are solid. If that is the case does any one see a tragic flaw in my logic for doing what I descibed earlier? does anyone have any other ideas? For achieving the same goal that goal being to make slow gains or at a minumum not have any loses while at the same time not shutting down natural test production.

[fitnessguy]

so lets just assume what I say is true my genetic limit sucks on ice and my training and diet are solid. If that is the case does any one see a tragic flaw in my logic for doing what I descibed earlier? does anyone have any other ideas? For achieving the same goal that goal being to make slow gains or at a minumum not have any loses while at the same time not shutting down natural test production.

I think it WOULD shut down natural test production, and even if it didn't, you're blood levels would be fluctuating so much, you would be at a higher risk of more sides.(sides > gains) this is just my opinion though.

[justaname]

You're 15-20lbs over your genetic limit! Bro, you only yo weigh 185 at 6'. You should be able to gain 15 more lbs naturally let alone just maintain what you've got.

believe me when I say I am.. I have a very small frame and very thin muscles
my wrist measurment is less than 7 inches. If you knew me you would belive what I say..I have a cousin who is just like me and he doesnt lift he is 6'1" and weighs 145 and he is chubby... Im not kidding.

[Jackman]

well if you wana be the guinea pig i would like to see how the results come out.

[Anhydro78]

You can keep what you got in the picture without steroids.

[Dude-Man]

You can keep what you got in the picture without steroids.

Not to mention add on it in a big way. I wouldn't have even guessed that you use at that size.

[Jackman]

Not to mention add on it in a big way. I wouldn't have even guessed that you use at that size.

Be nice

[justaname]

Not to mention add on it in a big way. I wouldn't have even guessed that you use at that size.

whatever dude I am pathetically small of build I thought the thread had moved past that...

[fitnessguy]

oh yeah, you said you eat between 2500-3000 cal per day.
IMO that isn't enough. bump it up to 3500+ and see what happens.

[justaname]

oh yeah, you said you eat between 2500-3000 cal per day.
IMO that isn't enough. bump it up to 3500+ and see what happens.

I have bumped it up in the past and I got fat but that was when I was training naturally. I will most likely bump it up for this experiment certainly I will on my "on" days.

[Jackman]

I have bumped it up in the past and I got fat but that was when I was training naturally. I will most likely bump it up for this experiment certainly I will on my "on" days.

lol no wonder your only that weight at 6' Bro obvoiusly your going to gain fat along with muscle its what happens! You said your diet was solid at 2500 calories..? i know females whos maintnaince dose is close to to that. No flam intended but you need to research more before touching a needle.

[catabolic kid]

You should not have trouble maintaining. What is your pct like. Make sure you have protein every 2 hours, thatll keep posititve nitro balance

[justaname]

lol no wonder your only that weight at 6' Bro obvoiusly your going to gain fat along with muscle its what happens! You said your diet was solid at 2500 calories..? i know females whos maintnaince dose is close to to that. No flam intended but you need to research more before touching a needle.

Bro I have been training for 16 years in that 16 years I have tried and researched most everything...to include of course bulking and cutting cycles I understand how and why steroids work I understand PCT I know about training and diet.I know that when you bulk you gain fat as well as muscle. the point is if we are talking about training naturally I think very few people reach thier natural potential but ones natural potential is a moving target anyways considering as we age our maximum potential decreases. But I really did reach mine really I did. When I say I have been training for 16 years I dont mean here and there I have been training consistantly for 16 years. And it is not as simple as saying eat more calories. Ones body composition is determined by that persons specific biology to include natural (or altered) hormone levels. If that biology says you will have a maximum of x amount of lean body mass and you eat more you will simply add fat assuming you really are maxed out.
Can someone tell me why no one can believe I am built small and that for me 185 is big?

[fitnessguy]

Bro I have been training for 16 years in that 16 years I have tried and researched most everything...to include of course bulking and cutting cycles I understand how and why steroids work I understand PCT I know about training and diet.I know that when you bulk you gain fat as well as muscle. the point is if we are talking about training naturally I think very few people reach thier natural potential but ones natural potential is a moving target anyways considering as we age our maximum potential decreases. But I really did reach mine really I did. When I say I have been training for 16 years I dont mean here and there I have been training consistantly for 16 years. And it is not as simple as saying eat more calories. Ones body composition is determined by that persons specific biology to include natural (or altered) hormone levels. If that biology says you will have a maximum of x amount of lean body mass and you eat more you will simply add fat assuming you really are maxed out.
Can someone tell me why no one can believe I am built small and that for me 185 is big?

i have no doubt when you say you have a small frame. but back to your proposed cycle, if you are going to do it, why not do it the way people know works best and the way that minimizes sides-the correct way.
IMO, the way you are talking about taking winny and d-bol sounds like this:
You get sick, go to the doc, he gives you medicine and says take two a day for two weeks. you say fvck that, i'll take 2 every 4 days for 6 weeks.
There is a reason he told you to take them like he did. this may be a stupid example, but i'm just trying to clear it up.
OTHER FACTORS COULD BE:
maybe lack of sleep has something to do with it also. i know i don't get as much sleep as i should and that affects the rate at which i grow. maybe you train TOO much.
just trying to help man. good luck

-fitness

[IronReload04]

Bro I have been training for 16 years in that 16 years I have tried and researched most everything...to include of course bulking and cutting cycles I understand how and why steroids work I understand PCT I know about training and diet.I know that when you bulk you gain fat as well as muscle. the point is if we are talking about training naturally I think very few people reach thier natural potential but ones natural potential is a moving target anyways considering as we age our maximum potential decreases. But I really did reach mine really I did. When I say I have been training for 16 years I dont mean here and there I have been training consistantly for 16 years. And it is not as simple as saying eat more calories. Ones body composition is determined by that persons specific biology to include natural (or altered) hormone levels. If that biology says you will have a maximum of x amount of lean body mass and you eat more you will simply add fat assuming you really are maxed out.
Can someone tell me why no one can believe I am built small and that for me 185 is big?

post up your diet and routine, i want to see what i looks like. have you had your test checked by a doc ever?

[Tahq]

If your adding calories and bulking up you are going to gain some fat, don't concern yourself over a few fat pounds that you can lose when you cut back down. Add some calories, gain some mass, and lose the fat come spring. I think your better off going with a natural bulk than the plan you have proposed.

[Anhydro78]

With your idea you would get all the side effects without the benifits. As much benifits that coupld come from oral only cycles. Every positive side effect of these drugs takes weeks to kick in. There is little chance you will see any positive result from the outlined cycle above.

I have trained many hard gainers. They can hold weight very well once they have gained real muscle weight. For you to keep what you got. Build a little more base naturally and youll be able to hold 185lbs without steroids.

[BUYLONGTERM]

With your idea you would get all the side effects without the benifits. As much benifits that coupld come from oral only cycles. Every positive side effect of these drugs takes weeks to kick in. There is little chance you will see any positive result from the outlined cycle above.

I have trained many hard gainers. They can hold weight very well once they have gained real muscle weight. For you to keep what you got. Build a little more base naturally and youll be able to hold 185lbs without steroids.

Exactly. I'm glad someone caught this...

Your logic makes no sense. You will get sides running the way you propose. Your hormones will be on a major rollercoaster ride. YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR BLOOD LEVELS CONSISTENT (which in turn keeps your sides down to a minimum) Your wasting your gear running it every 3 or 4 days. If the drugs are out of your system in a couple of days, why in gods name are you even running them in the first place? In order for anabolic steroids to work, they have to be in your system consistently. No flame bro, but you need to go back to the drawing board.

Peace,

BLT

[justaname]

ok you guys win I give up...I expected the response to my idea to be negative but I hoped somebody would give some solid arguments about the fundamental idea. and not just to say it wont work you will get sides but no gains and you dont know what your doing. so I give up consider the thread dead. If I decide to do it anyways I will let you guys know how it goes. I have also considered doing two weekers with tren/prop and dbol if I do that i will let you guys know how that goes...peace and thanks

[fitnessguy]

ok you guys win I give up...I expected the response to my idea to be negative but I hoped somebody would give some solid arguments about the fundamental idea. and not just to say it wont work you will get sides but no gains and you dont know what your doing. so I give up consider the thread dead. If I decide to do it anyways I will let you guys know how it goes. I have also considered doing two weekers with tren/prop and dbol if I do that i will let you guys know how that goes...peace and thanks

ok no flame here but.....
why in the hell would you do a two week cycle? I don't know which idea is dumbest; the one that started the whole thread or this one. your muscles don't magically grow in two weeks, it takes time(longer than two weeks) By the time they actually kick in, it will be time to start PCT.
I'm hoping i just read this wrong and you really meant something else. if that is the case then i apolagize. but if that is what you are talking about, then wooo!!! again, no flame but, man you might end up hurting yourself with all these "silly" ideas.
Good luck with your choices.
-fitness

[justaname]

ok no flame here but.....
why in the hell would you do a two week cycle? I don't know which idea is dumbest; the one that started the whole thread or this one. your muscles don't magically grow in two weeks, it takes time(longer than two weeks) By the time they actually kick in, it will be time to start PCT.
I'm hoping i just read this wrong and you really meant something else. if that is the case then i apolagize. but if that is what you are talking about, then wooo!!! again, no flame but, man you might end up hurting yourself with all these "silly" ideas.
Good luck with your choices.
-fitness

the two week cycle is something advocated and documented by a guy Bill Roberts you can find stuff of his www.mesomorphosis.com here is a clip

"Where AAS doses are sufficient for good gains, an interesting pattern is seen. For the first two weeks of the cycle, only the hypothalamus is inhibited, and it produces much less LHRH as a result of the high levels of sex hormones it senses. The pituitary is not inhibited at all: in fact, it is actually sensitized, and will respond to LHRH (if any is provided) even moreso than normally. After two weeks however, the pituitary also becomes inhibited, and even if LHRH is provided, the pituitary will produce little or no LH. This then is a deeper type of inhibition. After this point, there seems to be no definite further "switching point" where inhibition again becomes deeper and harder to reverse. As a general rule, I would say that there seems to be little difference between using AAS for 3 weeks vs. 8 weeks: recovery is about the same either way. Between 8 and 12 weeks, it becomes more and more likely that recovery will be difficult and slow, though even at 12 weeks it is common for recovery to not be too problematic, taking only a few weeks. Cycles past 12 weeks seem much more likely to cause substantial problems with recovery. In the hundreds of consultations I have done for people with recovery problems, very few (I can recall two) were for very short cycles such as 6 weeks, while most were for usages of 12 weeks straight or more."
the full article is at http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...production.htm
Check it out if you want

[edmen2]

u sound like u have ur mind set and no matter what anyone says u arent changing ur mind. so good luck and keep us posted on ur positive and negative results.

[Anhydro78]

The reason those proposed cycles wont work is all the benifits of steroids that occur doesnt happen from day one. Injectables dont take a long time to kick in because of the esters. It takes a while for your body to first adapt to the drug. ANd then its a consistant use that provides the benifit. Here are some things that steroids enhance.

Enhanced protein synthesis

Enhanced growth factor activity (e.g. GH, IGF-1, etc.)

Enhanced activation of myogenic stem cells (i.e. satellite cells)

Enhanced myonuclear number (to maintain nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio)

New myofiber formation

maintaining a positive Nitrogen Balance.

These are not things that happen immediately.

[justaname]

The reason those proposed cycles wont work is all the benifits of steroids that occur doesnt happen from day one. Injectables dont take a long time to kick in because of the esters. It takes a while for your body to first adapt to the drug. ANd then its a consistant use that provides the benifit. Here are some things that steroids enhance.

Enhanced protein synthesis

Enhanced growth factor activity (e.g. GH, IGF-1, etc.)

Enhanced activation of myogenic stem cells (i.e. satellite cells)

Enhanced myonuclear number (to maintain nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio)

New myofiber formation

maintaining a positive Nitrogen Balance.

These are not things that happen immediately.

First of of let me say thank you this is the type of thoughful intelligent response I have been hoping for.
Now then....I am aware of all of these things and I have read the article you posted and many others like it. I understand what you are saying about the effects not happening immediatly. It certainly makes sense but I have not seen anything documented that deals with the subject at least not directly. THings I have read about anabolic androgenic ratios of different drugs talks about how they came to the documented ratios of different drugs and that method being they would give a single dosage of a given drug then measure the effect on skelatal muscle size compared to the effect on androgen sensative tissues like the prostate. There was an effect after a single administration of all drugs but the longer acting drugs had a better ratio. The drugs with te shortest half lives if given in small divided dosages give the same effect as the longer lasting esters. So in a way this supports both sides of our argument. I think it may be entirly possible that the effects you listed happen very quikly but the effects are cummulative and untill you reach a certain point in the accumulation you dont notice gains. I know from my own experience with fast acting drugs like tren dbol and winstrol that I notice a difference after only a couple of days. It is not a measurable gain however or not a gain that is outside the normal margin of fluctuation for wieght and size measurments at least. But a definate difference in muscle "feel" and especially with tren a difference in the apparent hardness of musculature.
So if the the gains are cumulative in such a way then spacing those building blocks out over a longer period of time should still add up to something.
I look forward to your response.

[yowhatupU]

As you said the half life of winstrol is 9 hours, you never said how much you would be taking, but I'll assume 40-50 mg. Half life means half of what you took is gone. So after 48 hours you would have around 10 mg of winstrol running through your system. 10 mg is definetly enough to keep your gonad production to close to nothing. The following day your gonads might kick into production, but by the time they start to get any testosterone built there going to be shut down again with winstrol. Eventually your gonads would just shrivel up raisen style from doing this. And you would in affect just be running off the steroids you had given yourself, which was pretty minimal. In essence with your dosing you would have a low dose roller coaster 6 month cycle that would shut down your HPTA system and not give you very good gains. Eventually when you came off of them your test would be down to 0 and you would probably loose all of the mass you gained.
I have to admit your idea is very interesting, and I've thought about it. But it is just not a good one in the long run.

[SS1476]

As you said the half life of winstrol is 9 hours, you never said how much you would be taking, but I'll assume 40-50 mg. Half life means half of what you took is gone. So after 48 hours you would have around 10 mg of winstrol running through your system. 10 mg is definetly enough to keep your gonad production to close to nothing. The following day your gonads might kick into production, but by the time they start to get any testosterone built there going to be shut down again with winstrol. Eventually your gonads would just shrivel up raisen style from doing this. And you would in affect just be running off the steroids you had given yourself, which was pretty minimal. In essence with your dosing you would have a low dose roller coaster 6 month cycle that would shut down your HPTA system and not give you very good gains. Eventually when you came off of them your test would be down to 0 and you would probably loose all of the mass you gained.
I have to admit your idea is very interesting, and I've thought about it. But it is just not a good one in the long run.

----------------------------------------
OLD THREAD ??
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I dont mean to interupt...but this thread is
more than 7 months old.

I started reading this..and realized I have read it before...lol