would taking 500ius every 4 days for 2 weeks in the middle of my cycle and the 2 weeks before i start PCT be good?
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would taking 500ius every 4 days for 2 weeks in the middle of my cycle and the 2 weeks before i start PCT be good?
bro read anabolics 2004, very good book he says its useless doing that always do the hcg and the end of cycle bro. 500ius on a mon of 1st week 2500 on the thursaday, 2nd week 2500 mon thurs 2500ius, 3rd week monday 2500iu and then the thurs 1250
i think alot of people here are going to disagree with this,just found out myself about the benefits of taking it during a cycle ....we shall seeQuote:
Originally Posted by stelz
i dunno for sure just stating what i read in the book, im open minded to any one else is point of view
any other reply's, should I care out with what I have planned or no?
i have been using Hcg through all my serious cycles. I cant tell you any difference between taking 500ius twice a week every other week and doing a few 2,500iu shots during a cycle. But if you do use HCG during longer cycles you will rebound much easier. The reason some would say it isnt a good idea to even mess with HCG is because in high doses it can damage or desensitize your testies to LH.
The Axis
The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body’s natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.
Testicular Desensitization
Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.
Post-Cycle LH Levels
Post Cycle Testosterone Levels
Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.
The Role of Anti-estrogens
It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.
HCG
So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.
Finalizing the Program
An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.
Sample Post-cycle Plan:
Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily
In Closing
I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn’t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.
References:
1. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men. J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84
2. Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidogenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1981 Oct;78(10):6309-13
3. Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig Cells by Human Chorionic Gonadotropin In-vitro. PrBy William Llewellyn
I've posted this article before, but those HCG doses are to high, here's a study show that lower doses are better then large doses. The divided dose raises test levels whick remain elevated thereafter with no esterdiol(E2) peak. The single dose after 7 days test levels drop below normal when E2 was at it's maximum values.Quote:
Originally Posted by bignatt
Posted by hhajdo at S’ology
Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.
Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.
This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).
JohnnyB
Everyone has their opinion about HCG use. 500iu E3D is optimal IMO.
for how many days? is this throughout cycle, at the end of cycle, in the middle of cycle? :unsure:Quote:
Originally Posted by youknowme
I have found i rebound just as fast not using anything...but thats just me...
peace
db
I came off a tren only cycle at the end of October. I used 500 iu's of HCG, twice a week, for the last 2 weeks and the 1st week of PCT. I gained significant strength during the cycle which I still have now. I had problems sporting wood during most of the cycle and after the first week of HCG..no problems.
Just my experience.
Little Man
no flame bro ,but if u are not sure about something ,please do not suggest it to anyone asking a question about the subject :wg:Quote:
Originally Posted by stelz
read this bro is very good info from the doc regarding hcg adm,Quote:
Originally Posted by jaffry20
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
do a search on swales hcg protocol
Kubano, that is definately something I will consider trying.... Have you followed this method? If so what can you tell me?
that is swales hcg protocolQuote:
Originally Posted by IronRuffy
So johnny b could you lay out excatly how you would do it because i am curious
do 500iu on sat and sunday every week of ur cycle then into 1 week pct real clear hear get a 5000 iu amp of hcg get a 10 ml empty vial. Mix ur amp with ur 1ml water put that into the vial then put 9 more cc's of bact. water into the vial now that makes a total of 10cc'ss of hcg at 500 units per cc now just do that twice a week so a vial will last you 5 weeks
i havent tryied yet since my cycles havent consits of more 300 to 400 mg of test,imn my opinion u dont need hcg ,but for a future cycle with higher dosages of test plus deca and primo ,i will most likely follow this method,i think its very good info to haveQuote:
Originally Posted by IronRuffy
Two options: Either you do it throughout the cycle, the second option is to start around week 7. Personally I like to start the 7th week.Quote:
Originally Posted by peump
thanks all. very informative!
300-500iu e3-5d, the half-life of hcg is about 64 hours. Strat it in week one of a cycle, if you're running a 19-nor this is a must for good recovery of your HPTA. This will keep the boys alive and will have less stress on the body.Quote:
Originally Posted by bignatt
If you want to go the old route of waiting until the end, do 300iu ed for 10 days. I've never done this but from the study it looks like it'd work okay. The reason for 10 days instead of the 5 like the study, is the people in the study hadn't used AAS.
JohnnyB
This was written by Dr Swale and makes the most sense out of all hcg post's I have ever read.Quote:
Originally Posted by kubano28
Thanks for the reply you cleared up my confusionQuote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB
No probQuote:
Originally Posted by bignatt
JohnnyB