New Clen study

[RONINASAUNA]

Just wanted to get any Clen user's opinions on the following study.

It's enough to stop me from ever using it again, thats for sure.

Or do you consider this study meaningless?

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Fo...&threadid=13091

It's been known for some time that clenbuterol at high doses causes cardiac necrosis. This study in animals shows that doses of 1 mcg/kg BW induce apoptosis (programmed cell death) in heart tissue. Humans not uncommonly ingest this much clen. For instance, in a 220 lb (100 kg) bodybuilder this translates to 100 mcg. The CEM store sells clen at a concentration of 200 mcg/ml! Other UG labs sell it at similar concentrations, ranging from 100 to 200 mcg per ml.


J Appl Physiol. 2004 Dec 10; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links

{beta}2-Adrenergic receptor stimulation in vivo induces apoptosis in the rat heart and soleus muscle.

Burniston JG, Tan LB, Goldspink DF.

Research Institute for Sports and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, United Kingdom.

High doses of the beta2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist, clenbuterol, can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known if this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections using a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed using annexin V, single-strand DNA labelling and TUNEL). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h, and peaked 4 h after clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 microg kg(-1), with peak apoptosis (0.35 +/- 0.005 %; P<0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg kg(-1) . In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 +/- 2 %; P<0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 microg kg(-1). Cardiomyocyte apoptosis occurred throughout the ventricles, atria and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way from the apex towards the base. beta-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol or ICI 118,551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte beta2-AR was involved. These data show that when administered in vivo, beta2-AR stimulation by clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through beta1- and beta2-AR, respectively.

[carlsky]

how much is a safe dose to not enlarge your heart and **** then??? I plan on taking it this summer but I don't know now.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Simply take less than the lowest amount found to cause this problem (1mcg/kg), and you'll be fine.

[carlsky]

how much is a kg? I took physics but forgot everything!lol

[carlsky]

2.2 pounds right?

[BajanBastard]

I saw this study as well. That's why i'm not touching clen with a 10 foot pole.

[ace ventura]

how much is a kg?

1 kg = ~2,2 lbs

[carlsky]

is 100mg./day enough to burn some good fat if they are a virgin to clen and weigh about 200 in the summer time?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Yeah...basically, just take a tab, 3x a day, and you should be ok.

[carlsky]

what about t3? Does that work better and is it safer or what? I know you lose muscle with that **** though.

[carlsky]

would t3/eca stack be good and safer ya think???

[carlsky]

has anyone had any problems with clen besides "the shakes"???

[Property of Steroid.com]

Nope. And, I'm wondering if this study (21 days) has any long term implications? Or if the effects are reversable in some way?

Did everyone notice that the clen was injected (!) in this study?

Lets not all jump on the clen-bashing-bandwagon just yet.

[BajanBastard]

Ok there is no reason to piss your facking pants. I'm sure you would not die if you took the clen . 2.2 lbs is 1 kilo.

[bignatt]

dude i posted that study like 6 months ago it was in muscular development

[carlsky]

anyone opt for t3 then? That isn't harsh too is it?

[bignatt]

Clenbuterol Damages heart and skeletal muscle if you read in the new issue of muscular development it talks about how it caused heart cell death in dogs, rats, and horses......although excersice can reduce some of the side effects researchers found clen causes heart damage in horses that if it were to happen to a human it could be deadly.......Researchers also found that clen caused heart and skeletal muscle cell death in rats..........One other study also showed that Giving clen for 8 weeks decreased endurance capacity and decreased plasma volume (liquid part of blood) excercise usually increases plasma volume which improves temperature regulation and the ability of the heart and circulation to deliver oxygen to the tissues, clen also increased blood pressure in the lungs which puts a severe load on the heart................more to it just have to find it

[bignatt]

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/93/5/1824

"These data show significant myocyte-specific necrosis in the heart and skeletal muscle of the rat. Such irreversible damage in the heart suggests that clenbuterol may be damaging to long-term health. "

Indeed, it seems to kill heart cells.

The question I have, though, is dosing. It said that dosing in livestock is 1mg to 5mg/kg of bodyweight. This is ridiculously high-->even big BBers rarely go over 200mcg, or .5mg.

With the shaking and stuff that accompanies a high clen dose, I don't see how any animal could live through such a high dose.

[bigswolej]

i took clen before, i had the .4 mcg, the only problem i ever had ver were the following and i was taking 5 a day, i got warm, body heat elevated, i felt no heart problems at all no palpitations or anything keep in ming side effcts vary with everyone as we all know. And last i got muscle cramps prety bad, but that was my fault for not driking enough h2o that day other than that all good, i will continue to take it....i didnt even get blood pressure

[BajanBastard]

Nope. And, I'm wondering if this study (21 days) has any long term implications? Or if the effects are reversable in some way?

Did everyone notice that the clen was injected (!) in this study?

Lets not all jump on the clen-bashing-bandwagon just yet.

Clen Sub-q is not new, some time ago a bro here brought it up and got the hell flamed out of him. I had this study on my computer for some time now, i never posted it because of the over-reaction i knew would follow. Another 1 I had showed that clen reduces exercise capacity via lowering blood plasma.

[carlsky]

then what the pucks up with t3 then!!! If clen is bad for you then why not just stick to thyroid???

[BajanBastard]

dude i posted that study like 6 months ago it was in muscular development

I got the ref for the study from that issue of MD as well. From that time i decided i was not using the drug, no "clen hell" for me.

[bignatt]

I got the ref for the study from that issue of MD as well. From that time i decided i was not using the drug, no "clen hell" for me.

haha yea ive used it a couple of times even after reading the study but ive never been above 60mcg because i just didnt need to go that high

[Soldier of Misfortune]

Ive been gettin clen shakes like mad. Coupled with nolva n clomid for PCT I get like a high floating feeling sometimes. Probably isnt the smartest thing but Im goin to CA next week and need to cut up. I started w/ 40mcg and today I took 70mcg. I prolly wont go higher than 120mcg.

[bignatt]

theres no need to go so high if its not working out well enough do more cardio

[Blown_SC]

Nope. And, I'm wondering if this study (21 days) has any long term implications? Or if the effects are reversable in some way?

Did everyone notice that the clen was injected (!) in this study?

Lets not all jump on the clen-bashing-bandwagon just yet.

I noticed...

This is the one I e-mailed you before btw...

[hatchblack]

I have seen similiar studies but the numbers I remember were around 1-5mg per KG of body weight. That is insane amounts. Where is the old study...?

[cardiodan]

What about hookers theory that one can use it for prolonged periods of time. (More than 2 weeks)
Is clen really dangerous? How do we know this study translates to humans/?
Is it in a one time dosage or in a prolonged period of time that the cardiac problems arise? It reads that its instanteanous (2hrs).
Hell no one here has died from clen cardiac problems.
Im not condoning it, but Im sure you just have to be smart about it, and not over do it.

[Duma]

clen detrimental to skeletal muscle? read the last line of the study...not the case in humans imo

[Property of Steroid.com]

I've been on clen since Febuary/March. I'm fine.
I don't think 6-12 week clen cycles done once or twice a year (Spring/Summer cutters) would be detrimental or cause irreversible damage.

I can't think of anybody who has suffered long term ill effects from Clen.

[justincredible]

Nope. And, I'm wondering if this study (21 days) has any long term implications? Or if the effects are reversable in some way?

Did everyone notice that the clen was injected (!) in this study?

Lets not all jump on the clen-bashing-bandwagon just yet.

I noticed it too. Would the fact that the clen was being injected in this particular study have an effect on the overall results? I remember a kid posting on here a while back that len could be injected and he got flamed by every mod/vet/newbie on the board.

[DEVLDOG]

Simply take less than the lowest amount found to cause this problem (1mcg/kg), and you'll be fine.

most including myself need to take double that dose for it to be effective

[phwSSJ]

This is scary, I just ordered T3/clen from AR-R .

Gonna keep doses low and pray!!!!!!!!!

[seriouslifter]

Dont go higher than 140mcg and you will be fine.