Your thoughts on Androstenedione?

**newbrew** · 12-20-2004, 10:52 PM

Have never really considered a prohormone and probably wont, but there has obviously been a lot of hype over this lately. Just wondering, what are your thoughts about Androstenedione and are people basically throwing their money away?

**Hed** · 12-20-2004, 11:01 PM

Pretty sure it was taken off the market?
I took andro before i knew what i was doing, and saw a nice strength gain even workin out like a girlie-man.
Thought they took it off the market tho, cause of liver damage chances.

**newbrew** · 12-20-2004, 11:04 PM

Are other "Andro" forms as effective? I know prohormones were recently delcared illegal by the Bush administration, but I believe they will be on the shelves until sometime in Jan (I think the 20th?)

**Duma** · 12-20-2004, 11:41 PM

dude andro is completely worthless...was the first porhormone put out...and one of the worst for estrogen conversion btw.....absolute crap.

**sniper320** · 12-20-2004, 11:43 PM

If your into prohormones go with M1t.

**Peanut Butter** · 12-20-2004, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by sniper320

If your into prohormones go with M1t.

M1T is actually a steroid . It requires no conversion in the body. It is also like being in hell for some people. I am one of them. I did regular 1-Test high does orally and was very satisfied. However it will be gone soon. No 1-Test isn't the same as test. They are 2 totally different things.

**sniper320** · 12-20-2004, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Peanut Butter

M1T is actually a steroid. It requires no conversion in the body. It is also like being in hell for some people. I am one of them. I did regular 1-Test high does orally and was very satisfied. However it will be gone soon. No 1-Test isn't the same as test. They are 2 totally different things.

yes, i know that but personally i would put andro in the same catigory as M1t. if you juice,i dont think m1t compares.

**AandF6969** · 12-21-2004, 12:08 AM

why is M1t like hell for some people? what kinda sides?

**Peanut Butter** · 12-21-2004, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by sniper320

yes, i know that but personally i would put andro in the same catigory as M1t. if you juice,i dont think m1t compares.

Andro requires conversion. M1T doesn't, and M1T can hang with Dbol , or Anadrol as far as gains.

**sniper320** · 12-21-2004, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Peanut Butter

Andro requires conversion. M1T doesn't, and M1T can hang with Dbol, or Anadrol as far as gains.

"dbol or anadrol as far as gains" i dont think so man. your compairing m1t to drol?

**Peanut Butter** · 12-21-2004, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by sniper320

"dbol or anadrol as far as gains" i dont think so man. your compairing m1t to drol?

From my experience it has. Everyone is different, but because it is legal doesn't make it a lightweight. Cocaine was legal at one time. However on a gains/side effect ratio, M1T would be last on my list. Not due to lack of gains, but the sides.

**TheBrent** · 12-21-2004, 12:16 AM

there's no way m1t is even close to the amount of gains you could/would receive from d bol or anadrol - no comparison

**Peanut Butter** · 12-21-2004, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by TheBrent

there's no way m1t is even close to the amount of gains you could/would receive from d bol or anadrol- no comparison

Have you taken all 3?

**AandF6969** · 12-21-2004, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Peanut Butter

From my experience it has. Everyone is different, but because it is legal doesn't make it a lightweight. Cocaine was legal at one time. However on a gains/side effect ratio, M1T would be last on my list. Not due to lack of gains, but the sides.

What kinda sides are there bro?

**Peanut Butter** · 12-21-2004, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by AandF6969

What kinda sides are there bro?

It is the lethargy. It is like not wanting to get out of bed, and you have no appetite.

Here's a link to a diary.
My M1T cycle

before anyone sais you gain way more than 12 pounds of Dbol or Drol, think about how much you actually keep.

**Ntpadude** · 12-21-2004, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by newbrew

Have never really considered a prohormone and probably wont, but there has obviously been a lot of hype over this lately. Just wondering, what are your thoughts about Androstenedione and are people basically throwing their money away?

Most andro formulas were basically "pollen from a northern pine tree". That simple. It will now be illegal to sell pine pollen labeled as andro, but it might actually be allowed to stay on the market if it stays labeled as pine tree pollen.

You figure it out. Do you really think pine tree pollen is going to make you all big and muscular. The only thing we lost in the new law is 1-testosterone and Fina. The rest of the law just simple put a giant scam out of business.

**Peanut Butter** · 12-21-2004, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

Most andro formulas were basically "pollen from a northern pine tree". That simple. It will now be illegal to sell pine pollen labeled as andro, but it might actually be allowed to stay on the market if it stays labeled as pine tree pollen.

You figure it out. Do you really think pine tree pollen is going to make you all big and muscular. The only thing we lost in the new law is 1-testosterone and Fina. The rest of the law just simple put a giant scam out of business.

lol. I don't know about all of that. If you don't think pro-hormones work you must of never tried them, and if you did something in your routine, diet, or sleep was lacking. Or your doses were too low.
4-AD converts directly in to testosterone in the body. So to say 4-AD doesn't work is saying testosterone dosen't work. I would recommend speaking from experience from now on bro. You are talking like what you said is a fact, but it can't be a fact because you are wrong. Also, Andro is not Pine tree pollen. That's like saying Dbol is wild yam.

**MER** · 12-21-2004, 12:33 AM

Ok, I have taken all 3. M1T, dbol , and anadrol and NO M1T does NOT live up to neither. Not even close.

**TheBrent** · 12-21-2004, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Peanut Butter

Have you taken all 3?

good point, im a little ignorant on the steroids , i will be starting my cycle with d bol in it soon though, as far as m1t 1ad and 4 ad type products, yes i have and they didnt wield that great of results... just a guess but i think d bol is going to put on a lot more pounds when i do... actualy it isnt a guess at all, d bol is going to add a good 15-25 pounds, somethingn that a m1t type product will never do for me. another person may have different results, though i doubt a 20 pound gain in 6 weeks. just my 2 cents though

**The Baron** · 12-21-2004, 12:35 AM

There is a hyoooge difference between androsteneDIONE and androsteneDIOL. The "dione" drugs are worthless. The "diol" drugs are somewhat mroe effective and aromatize less.

Because prohormones must undergo one or more conversion processes in the body in order to be utilized in any meaningful way to build lean tissue, their effectiveness is crippled by the finite amounts of certain enzymes required for the conversion. For this reason, one quickly reaches a point of diminished returns when increasing dosages, and so even high doses of prohormones seldom give gains equivelant to even a very conservative cycle of real gear. There are a few products to which highly credible users have attributed respectable gains, such as Mag-10. Most of these products are expensive, and soon they will all be scheduled as narcotics along with their big brothers, the AAS that have been scheduled narcotics for years.

Generally, the dosages recommended on the packaging will yield little or no benefits to the user. I did experience modest gains using 1g/day each of 19-nor-4-androstenediol and 4-androstenediol bulk powders, which is about 10 times the recommended dosage. It is likely that my results would have been duplicated with half the dosages I was using, due to the limited quantities of the key enzymes I mentioned above. It is also nearly as likely that the gains I got had nothing to do with the prohormone stack.

There is one very good use for prohormones in a "natural" trainee... one can often experience a temporary increase in aggression and CNS response after taking a cyclodextrin-delivered prohormone that converts to testosterone , such as 4-diol, a half hour or so before training. This should not be nearly enough to have an effect on the HPTA but it can be just enough edge to overcome a plateau, to add another small plate or a couple more reps. Even if this is just the placebo effect talking, it is still a good thing. But this is a very limited application. Overall I would have to say that prohormones, in general, are a waste of money. Their legal OTC status was their only advantage, and now, that is gone. PHs are now classed as illegal anabolic steroids , and they cost more than "real" steroids, and they have nowhere near as much to offer to the user as real gear. So save your money, get something that will make you actually grow. Forget about prohormones.

**TheBrent** · 12-21-2004, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by MER

Ok, I have taken all 3. M1T, dbol, and anadrol and NO M1T does NOT live up to neither. Not even close.

thanks! i totally agree , i just lake the d bol experience to make my statements valid , only for a short time though!!!

**Ntpadude** · 12-21-2004, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Peanut Butter

lol. I don't know about all of that. If you don't think pro-hormones work you must of never tried them, and if you did something in your routine, diet, or sleep was lacking. Or your doses were too low.
4-AD converts directly in to testosterone in the body. So to say 4-AD doesn't work is saying testosterone dosen't work. I would recommend speaking from experience from now on bro. You are talking like what you said is a fact, but it can't be a fact because you are wrong. Also, Andro is not Pine tree pollen. That's like saying Dbol is wild yam.

Be suprised how some people can be given totally fake steroids and never figure it out becuase they mentally expect such wonderful thing to happen, that they really increase the diet, improve and increase workout regiment and get very real gains, but its all placebo effect.

Reality is most androstenione is made from pine tree pollen, surely processed with acids, refined and other good stuff but just like you can get a similar high from LSD's source ingredients, the raw material is probably as good if taken in sufficient quantities. As a matter of fact I have a drawer full of andro, nor andro, etc... nothing remotely compared to the power of steroids except m-1-testostererone and DHEA. Yes most medical doctors and suppliment companies will admit that DHEA has a higher rate of conversion to real testosterone then most of the andro clones and this is why the old people LOVE DHEA! DHEA is supposed to be the best prohormone on the market and because of very popular demand with our nation's senior citizens, it was excluded from the prohormone ban and remains legal.

**Peanut Butter** · 12-21-2004, 12:39 AM

ok I think I came across wrong. If you did a 4 week dbol cycle, and a 4 week M1T cycle FROM MY EXPERIENCE* you will bloat more and have more unkeepable gains on Dbol, but more keepable gains with M1T. Me personally I wouldn't care if there was a steroid that gave me 500 pounds of muscle in a week if I lost it all a week later. Thats what Dbol is to me.

**Peanut Butter** · 12-21-2004, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

Be suprised how some people can be given totally fake steroids and never figure it out becuase they mentally expect such wonderful thing to happen, that they really increase the diet, improve and increase workout regiment and get very real gains, but its all placebo effect.

Reality is most androstenione is made from pine tree pollen, surely processed with acids, refined and other good stuff but just like you can get a similar high from LSD's source ingredients, the raw material is probably as good if taken in sufficient quantities. As a matter of fact I have a drawer full of andro, nor andro, etc... nothing remotely compared to the power of steroids except m-1-testostererone and DHEA. Yes most medical doctors and suppliment companies will admit that DHEA has a higher rate of conversion to real testosterone then most of the andro clones and this is why the old people LOVE DHEA! DHEA is supposed to be the best prohormone on the market and because of very popular demand with our nation's senior citizens, it was excluded from the prohormone ban and remains legal.

I'm studying DHEA now. I am trying to come up with an all natural and legal anabolic stack that:
Raises HGH and IGF and
Raises Testosterone to anabolic levels

So far I have decided on:
DHEA
7-OXO-DHEA
L-Arginine
GABA
Tribulus
Wild Yam Extract
and yes Pine Pollen Powder.

This is just the start. I am still researching. It is for a friend that has been on steroids for years, I mean year long cycles and wants to get off for good. I don't know if an all natural cycle would help him now, but I think if he stays off for 6 months then it might benefit him.

**TheBrent** · 12-21-2004, 12:46 AM

but overall, d bol will give you way more gains and you will still come out bigger and strong than on m1t... which for me personally didnt give that great of gains even with proper diet and training, maybe my doses were too low though?

**Peanut Butter** · 12-21-2004, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by TheBrent

but overall, d bol will give you way more gains and you will still come out bigger and strong than on m1t... which for me personally didnt give that great of gains even with proper diet and training, maybe my doses were too low though?

Everybody reacts different too. I mean some people love IGF and some say it's garbage.

**Ntpadude** · 12-21-2004, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by Peanut Butter

I'm studying DHEA now. I am trying to come up with an all natural and legal anabolic stack that:
Raises HGH and IGF and
Raises Testosterone to anabolic levels

So far I have decided on:
DHEA
7-OXO-DHEA
L-Arginine
GABA
Tribulus
Wild Yam Extract
and yes Pine Pollen Powder.

This is just the start. I am still researching. It is for a friend that has been on steroids for years, I mean year long cycles and wants to get off for good. I don't know if an all natural cycle would help him now, but I think if he stays off for 6 months then it might benefit him.

If your requirement is to stay legal and not trip up on the drug test for school, etc... then you are looking at everything wrong. Should be looking at tongkat ali and tribulus and drop the test of it... except maybe DHEA because tongkat will directly convert DHEA to testosterone and do so without a shutdown of your HTPA. I use tongkat for PCT because brother, this stuff will kick your natural testosterone production back into shape and then even put it into high gear. It tends to increase whatever you are doing now, and increase that test production 4 fold. The reality is, stay on long enough, your balls begin to hypertrophy and become larger then normal for the specific purpose of cum production and natural testosterone production.

**Peanut Butter** · 12-21-2004, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

If your requirement is to stay legal and not trip up on the drug test for school, etc... then you are looking at everything wrong. Should be looking at tongkat ali and tribulus and drop the test of it... except maybe DHEA because tongkat will directly convert DHEA to testosterone and do so without a shutdown of your HTPA. I use tongkat for PCT because brother, this stuff will kick your natural testosterone production back into shape and then even put it into high gear. It tends to increase whatever you are doing now, and increase that test production 4 fold. The reality is, stay on long enough, your balls begin to hypertrophy and become larger then normal for the specific purpose of cum production and natural testosterone production.

I have heard of tongkat. I will look further in to it.

**nordicpower** · 12-21-2004, 12:54 AM

all prohormones are basically steroid side-effects in a bottle, minus the great gains of course.

**Bryan2** · 12-21-2004, 01:10 AM

Ok guys Ill clear the ground for you.

M1T IS DBOL thats right it is DBOL BUT it is the DYHYDRO version of DBOL which makes it more anabolic than DBOL and cant convert to estrogen which causes no bloating. So they are the same base compound guys its NOT something different at all and saying one sucks and the other doesnt is crap.

DHEA works through different pathways in the body and does NOT always convert to test this is why it remains untouched by the ban.

4AD converts in the blood at a 15% rate assuming injected with 100% absorbtion.
oral absorbtion is only around 5%.

androstendione converted at 5% assuming injected which also converted to estrogen at high proportions.

androstenDIOL converts at 5% also but cannot convert directly to estrogen.

So prohormones work if taken in sufficent quantites calculating absorbtion AND conversion.
Only downfall is it is very volumous to get enough active chem in your body.
There are alot of active PRO STERIODS on the market right now that im sad to see go.

Take M4ohn its deca with an oh modification similar to clostebol that inhibits it from converting to estrogen. Which means mild supression and no estrogen or prgesterone activity. Excellent for cutting cycles to maintain or even add a few pounds lbm while in a severe calorie deffacet.

Then M1,4add it converts into DBOL at 15%

then take MDHT or mestanolone it is perfectly legal right now.

M5AA it gives a killer CNS stimulant effect if dosed before a workout and will produce a hardening effect.

Then there is 4OHT which is the same chemical as clostebol but a different mod at the 4 position.

**TheBrent** · 12-21-2004, 01:20 AM

ok say you want d bol like effects from your m1t, then what kind of dose would you have to take to be similar to that of 25 mg of d bol and would it give you similar results?

**Bryan2** · 12-21-2004, 03:33 PM

Yes it will give similar results many only really need 10mgs per day to see awesome gains I got 16 pounds in 2 weeks off of M1T and 13 pounds were LBM. SOme go higher but there really is no need maybe 15 mgs or 20mgs but in my experience only the true non responders to all chems have to go high with this chem.