i was recently told that winny depot (if injected of course) is less toxic than it's oral counter part since it does not go through the "first pass" through the liver. is this true? i've always read that it has the same toxicity.
Printable View
i was recently told that winny depot (if injected of course) is less toxic than it's oral counter part since it does not go through the "first pass" through the liver. is this true? i've always read that it has the same toxicity.
i never heard that bro,i heard that since its 17aa it passes through you liver a few times
as i posted in a previous thread; yes, it is true.
although it is a 17aa, the "first pass" that you are avoiding when injecting prevents the full dose being exposed to the liver at one time, while by injecting the winny the exposion to the liver would be spread out hence less toxic to a degree.
i've gotten some different opinions from alot of intelligent idividuals. bump for more opinions. some hardcore data would be nice.
Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9 (ISSN: 1050-642X)Quote:
Originally posted by Dizzy
i've gotten some different opinions from alot of intelligent idividuals. bump for more opinions. some hardcore data would be nice.
Dickerman RD; Pertusi RM; Zachariah NY; Dufour DR; McConathy WJ
The Department of Biomedical Science, University of North Texas Health
Science Center, Fort Worth 76107-2699, USA.
OBJECTIVE: There have been numerous reports of hepatic dysfunction
secondary to anabolic steroid use based on elevated levels of serum
aminotransferases. This study was conducted to distinguish between serum
aminotransaminase elevations secondary to intense resistance training and
anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity in elite bodybuilders.
DESIGN: This was a case-control study of serum chemistry profiles from
bodybuilders using and not using anabolic steroids with comparisons to a
cohort of medical students and patients with hepatitis.
PARTICIPANTS: The participants were bodybuilders taking self-directed
regimens of anabolic steroids (n = 15) and bodybuilders not taking steroids
(n = 10). Blood chemistry profiles from patients with viral hepatitis (n =
49) and exercising and nonexercising medical students (592) were used as
controls.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The focus in blood chemistry profiles was aspartate
aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT),
gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT), and creatine kinase (CK) levels.
RESULTS: In both groups of bodybuilders, CK, AST, and ALT were elevated,
whereas GGT remained in the normal range. In contrast, patients with
hepatitis had elevations of all three enzymes: ALT, AST, and GGT. Creatine
kinase (CK) was elevated in all exercising groups. Patients with hepatitis
were the only group in which a correlation was found between
aminotransferases and GGT.
CONCLUSION: Prior reports of anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity based
on elevated aminotransferase levels may have been overstated, because no
exercising subjects, including steroid users, demonstrated hepatic
dysfunction based on GGT levels. Such reports may have misled the medical
community to emphasize steroid-induced hepatotoxicity when interpreting
elevated aminotransferase levels and disregard muscle damage. For these
reasons, when evaluating hepatic function in cases of anabolic steroid
therapy or abuse, CK and GGT levels should be considered in addition to ALT
and AST levels as essential elements of the assessment.
hope this helps.
this has nothing to do with a 17aa administered orally vs. injected. participants were either on or off. all it says is that hepatotoxicity of anabolics has been overstated.
totally my error. the difference of administration of 17aa substances was not even compared, I will keep looking for you. Sorry for the initial post there.
if winny is injected..it avoids the first pass of the liver..however if you were to drink the injection..it would then be orally administered making it no safer than just taking oral winny
i don't understand your point here, i didn't see even a hint of semantics in this thread. the debate was simply between oral vs. intramuscular administration.Quote:
Originally posted by D3m3nt3d
if winny is injected..it avoids the first pass of the liver..however if you were to drink the injection..it would then be orally administered making it no safer than just taking oral winny
The point being that the winny injection avoids the first pass IF ITS INJECTED..if winny injection is drank it would not avoid the first pass..it would be the same as winny...here i am debating simply oral vs. intramuscular administration :)
"i was recently told that winny depot (if injected of course) is less toxic than it's oral counter part since it does not go through the "first pass" through the liver. is this true? i've always read that it has the same toxicity."Quote:
Originally posted by D3m3nt3d
The point being that the winny injection avoids the first pass IF ITS INJECTED..if winny injection is drank it would not avoid the first pass..it would be the same as winny...here i am debating simply oral vs. intramuscular administration :)
this is the first post of the thread. maybe it is a bit more clear now that when reference was made to winstrol depot it was assumed it was via injection. It was simply a winstrol IM vs oral debate.
simply stated..injection avoids the first pass of the liver...orals dont..clear?
it's as clear as you want it to be bro. you may want to look up to the third message in this thread though, because i thought i already covered the basics on this thread yesterday.Quote:
Originally posted by D3m3nt3d
simply stated..injection avoids the first pass of the liver...orals dont..clear?
if winny injection is drank it isnt a winny injection. as far as i can tell dizzy was comparing oral administration of winstrol with intramuscular use, not winny depot vs. winny tabs.Quote:
Originally posted by D3m3nt3d
The point being that the winny injection avoids the first pass IF ITS INJECTED..if winny injection is drank it would not avoid the first pass..it would be the same as winny...here i am debating simply oral vs. intramuscular administration :)
OK bro, You stick to your university study there which says NOTHING about winny at all..and i'll stick to my source (Anabolics 2002) which this was directly stated under winstrol
What exactly did your magic book tell you? You remind me of a mime priest with an un-open bible. Get your facts straight before misleading other people on this board. The primary concern here is dishing out worthwhile and meaningful information, not to aid in an egotistical attempt to make your quantitive post record resemble the amount of lonely nights you have spent with your $200 blow-up sexual doll named Bob.Quote:
Originally posted by D3m3nt3d
OK bro, You stick to your university study there which says NOTHING about winny at all..and i'll stick to my source (Anabolics 2002) which this was directly stated under winstrol
Quote:
Originally posted by jbrand
as i posted in a previous thread; yes, it is true.
although it is a 17aa, the "first pass" that you are avoiding when injecting prevents the full dose being exposed to the liver at one time, while by injecting the winny the exposion to the liver would be spread out hence less toxic to a degree.
Your basically saying the same thing as me here bro...but the question wasn't which was more potent oral or IM man..it was is one more toxic than the other..which i and you both answered..injection avoids the first pass.
Quote:
Originally posted by D3m3nt3d
Your basically saying the same thing as me here bro...but the question wasn't which was more potent oral or IM man..like your study shows above..it was is one more toxic than the other..which i and you both answered..injection avoids the first pass.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jbrand
as i posted in a previous thread; yes, it is true.
although it is a 17aa, the "first pass" that you are avoiding when injecting prevents the full dose being exposed to the liver at one time, while by injecting the winny the exposion to the liver would be spread out hence less toxic to a degree.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Your basically saying the same thing as me here bro...but the question wasn't which was more potent oral or IM man..it was is one more toxic than the other..which i and you both answered..injection avoids the first pass."
You may want to put your monitor on a higher platform or something. You see where you quoted me saying .. "yes, it is true", if you look at it in context that was verifying the fact that oral is in fact more toxic than IM. I don't think people mind me throwing in some extra information in the post to aid them in their quest for knowledge.
OK first of all...Anabolics 2002 is a STEROID REFERENCE MANUAL..tellin you what you need to know about STEROIDS... this information comes from steroid experts..not little college studies Kid...your saying my statement is misleading when your statement said the SAME thing..oral is more toxic than injection..so learn to debate kid before you jump on a board and try to flame someone who is tryin to help...i could care less about my numbers of posts..its about knowledge..Grow up and save your little blow-up-doll jokes for your little sausage fest slumber partiesQuote:
Originally posted by jbrand
What exactly did your magic book tell you? You remind me of a mime priest with an un-open bible. Get your facts straight before misleading other people on this board. The primary concern here is dishing out worthwhile and meaningful information, not to aid in an egotistical attempt to make your quantitive post record resemble the amount of lonely nights you have spent with your $200 blow-up sexual doll named Bob.
bro understand ...YOU ARE SAYING THE SAME THING AS ME MAN..oral is more toxic..so where is your problem :unsure:
"OK bro, You stick to your university study there which says NOTHING about winny at all..and i'll stick to my source (Anabolics 2002) which this was directly stated under winstrol"Quote:
Originally posted by D3m3nt3d
OK first of all...Anabolics 2002 is a STEROID REFERENCE MANUAL..tellin you what you need to know about STEROIDS... this information comes from steroid experts..not little college studies Kid...your saying my statement is misleading when your statement said the SAME thing..oral is more toxic than injection..so learn to debate kid before you jump on a board and try to flame someone who is tryin to help...i could care less about my numbers of posts..its about knowledge..Grow up and save your little blow-up-doll jokes for your little sausage fest slumber parties
That is your original post (attack) on me. Now we are resorting to "college boy" threats with the irony that you don't have a clue who I am or what I do. I h ave news for you: your manuals, regardless who wrote them, fall victim when empirical evidence proves the contrary. When you are looking for a real argument regarding biochemistry (make sure you have all your "references" at hand!) be sure to let me know. For now, I guess I should resume my keg stands and speedballs before happy hour ends. Thanks for your intellect.
Actually after stating like a smart ass that you didn't understand my point when it was in plain english...this was your "attack" on me..then u questioned my knowledge? No one is here to flame each other..its to give advice..you gave yours and i gave mine which you dont seem to be understanding is saying the same thing..but anyway i think Dizzy got our point. So enuff saidQuote:
Originally posted by jbrand
What exactly did your magic book tell you? You remind me of a mime priest with an un-open bible. Get your facts straight before misleading other people on this board. The primary concern here is dishing out worthwhile and meaningful information, not to aid in an egotistical attempt to make your quantitive post record resemble the amount of lonely nights you have spent with your $200 blow-up sexual doll named Bob.
this was an intelligent debate before someone totally misunderstood what the other said. lets take deep breaths and go back to having a discussion. that is why i posted this thread. to give us something to talk about. you two...beleive it or not are basically on the same side of the discussion. only big D never said that because it skips the first pass that it is less toxic.
if depot (injected) was to skip the first pass of the liver...it would never pass the liver. correct? i just don't see how it would be any less toxic.
both are going to be liver toxic..depot and oral as you know are both 17aa..so injection avoids the first pass of the liver but it is still broken down by the liver..an oral takes more than one pass in the liver..one because it is placed orally so it has to go through your liver and another time to break it down..actually to be honest 177aa's may pass through the liver more than 2 times anyway..that part i am not sure about
winstrol depot used IM skips the "first pass" simply because because the C17 in the alpha position does not allow degradation on the "first pass".Quote:
Originally posted by Dizzy
this was an intelligent debate before someone totally misunderstood what the other said. lets take deep breaths and go back to having a discussion. that is why i posted this thread. to give us something to talk about. you two...beleive it or not are basically on the same side of the discussion. only big D never said that because it skips the first pass that it is less toxic.
if depot (injected) was to skip the first pass of the liver...it would never pass the liver. correct? i just don't see how it would be any less toxic.
well put jbrand :)
I'm happy to make peace D :) Simple word choices can sometimes deter the main point of an argument. No harm intended, it is no mystery that you know what you're talking about :)Quote:
Originally posted by D3m3nt3d
well put jbrand :)
ok, that makes sense...but does that make it less hard on the liver?Quote:
Originally posted by jbrand
winstrol depot used IM skips the "first pass" simply because because the C17 in the alpha position does not allow degradation on the "first pass".
Thanks jbrand and same to you..you too have alot of knowledge
technically, yes. because via IM the liver won't be exposed to the stanzonol all at once, which would be the case via oralQuote:
Originally posted by Dizzy
ok, that makes sense...but does that make it less hard on the liver?
so can you give me some proof as to why i should pay more for depot. or better yet convert tabs of winstrol and dbol to an injectable. mix em....hehe, cool. dianastrol. look out for that. JK
:cool: well.. if i were in your shoes:Quote:
Originally posted by Dizzy
so can you give me some proof as to why i should pay more for depot. or better yet convert tabs of winstrol and dbol to an injectable. mix em....hehe, cool. dianastrol. look out for that. JK
1. i would not walk in dog shit.
2. i would just keep using the winny orally, the difference in potency is not significant enough to warrant the extra pain associated with daily injections. besides the point, we do have a two-letter friend who even makes this the most cost-effective alternative :hello:
m'kahahay...thanks for the advice :waving:
WOw. Crazy post...Nice to see you guys worked things out.
SOLID
This thread is awesome.hehe.