Test only vs. stacking cycles - a hypothesis

[Duck of Death]

I have been doing a lot of thinking and research as of late about AS cycles and would like to share some of my thoughts with y'all.
Specifically, knowing what I do about biochemistry and physiology, I do believe there might be a big difference in the role of test in test only cycles and stacking with other anabolics.
Consider this: When administering exogenous testosterone to the human body, it will suppress the body's own production of test, usually to the point of partial or complete HPTA shutdown. When this occurs, the dosage of test which is necessary is the dose which will replace the body's own natural test PLUS the dose which will be required for the desired anabolic effect. For the sake of simplicity, let's say 200mg./week will cause a complete shutdown. Therefore, more than that will be required for a test only cycle, say 500-750 total.
Now consider if the user wishes to utilize different compunds such as deca, EQ, Fina, or any other. Naturally, these compounds will cause a HPTA shutdown so users who try a "tren only" or a "Deca only" cycle are greeted with the dreaded limp noodle syndrome. Wiser users recommend adding test to cycles like this to prevent sexual side effects. But from what I have read, advice usually runs that doses of test are recommended which are as great as the test only cycle would be on its own. Example: When running a Tren cycle at 50mg. ED, the usual advice is to run test at at least 400 mg./wk. Is this good advice?
As we all know, test is a great mass builder, but gives a lot of water retention and can be damaging to the libido by itself in sufficiently large dosages. I have found that at the end of my last two cycles (test cyp at 400/week and then test cyp at 500/week and Deca at 300/week), a week or two after PCT I lost a great deal of water weight, which the uninformed will mistake as muscle gain. Another problem is estrogen conversion of the test, which must be combatted with anti-estrogens (Nolva, Arimidex, Letro, etc). The more the test, the more anti-e's are needed.
Now what I am thinking is if the user wishes to cycle with compounds which will cause a shutdown, but wishes to avoid the water and bloat of test, why do we not just use a dosage which will REPLACE the body's own endogenous test (which we will assume is shut down 100% by the other compounds) to avoid unpleasant scenes with Mr. Happy? After all, if you are shut down, you are shut down but you cant be shut down more than 100% so why use a massive dose of test if you are relying on other anabolics for your gains? Of course, those who wish the maximal mass would want to use a bunch of test and other compounds - screw the water! But for those who wish to gain Lean body mass and are content to put on less weight during a cycle but keep more of it after PCT, doesn't it seem logical just to replace the test while using other AS?
I am going to put this hypothesis to the test (pun unintended) for my next cycle, which will use test cyp at only 200mg./week, Tren at 50mg/day, and an oral such as Superdrol or anavar. Probably six to eight weeks. I will use anti-e's but at very low dosages and. of course, PCT as usual with HCG throughout the cycle to keep the boys plump and happy.
I am posting this to stimulate a discussion - please dont flame and say "that just wont work" without some logic and rationale of your own.
What do you all think?

[j martini]

The only time i have run such a low dose of test with my cycle was during a pre contest diet. I had no sex drive whether this was caused by the diet and stress of getting ready for a show, or the small amount of test i dont know.

[1-Cent]

Why not run an AI like Letro... you'll forget what water retention is believe me.

This is pretty common knowlege already bro, your test doesn't need to be as high as anything else, but it helps.

[johnsomebody]

I think it's a good point. A year or two ago there was a big debate here over high or low-dose test in cycles, which is better? Bask8kace is a big proponent of lower dose and there was a lot of interesting info shared about it pro and con.

The question is maybe which of the AS is more anabolic, test or the "side" steroids like EQ, deca and tren? I used to always read test is the "king" of steroids for muscle gains and all the others are just in addition, which would explain why test doses would always be at least equal to the other drugs involved in a cycle.

I'm interested in trying a lower dose test next time in conjunction with a higher dose of deca or EQ next time myself, just to see the diff. Unlike some people high dose test kinda kills my libido.

[johnsomebody]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=30772

[Duck of Death]

.......JS has a good point and the link is an interesting read! This is precisely the discussion I was hoping to start. I have read some other threads involving high test dosages shutting dwon libido, so I know it is not unique to a few.
You bros out there who have done cycles with low-dose test and other AS - come on and chime in!

[rodge]

when i started doing aas i mostly did cycles that looked like this:
250mg test ew
400mg deca ew

i always had great succes with it but lost a lot afterwards cauase back then i did'nt know sh!t about pct(this was 10 years ago)

so with proper pct i would say it should work,but i rather go on a high dose of test.

-rodge

[Property of Steroid.com]

So what's the gist of your idea? To use low doses? High doses? I'm not following your argument...

[Duck of Death]

....Hooker, my idea is to use test only in a dosage sufficient to replace the body's test which would be non-available due to HPTA shutdown and rely on the other stacked anabolics (ex. Tren, Deca, Anavar, etc) as the basis for muscular gains. I believe this would result in better-kept gains with much less water retention and a non-supressed libido, especially in those bros who are susceptible to it. Make sense??

[wilthepill123]

It makes perfect sense, and is an interesting idea. However, when you use esters like Cypionate and Enanthate you are going to get a natural accumulation of testosterone over whats normal due to the esters long half life. Perhaps it would be a bit better with something like propionate so you could keep the test levels steady, because with the others your Testosterone would keep rising and rising.

[stupidhippo]

In my opinion your logic makes a lot of sense but it doesnt always work like that... I'm not saying that this is the case here though. I've read here that many people have a strong opinion that test should be bigger than the stacked compound. hey seem to have a quite strong opinion bout that too so it would be nice to hear the reasoning. One thing that I've been wondering is that if u have lets say deca in ur system why does it cause the deca dick syndrom. Since all AAS act through a asingle receptor how can deca act on it by enancing muscle growth but not work libido wise etc (if the same receptor). Some one wise in bio chem could educate me.. I'd appreciate it..

[wilthepill123]

Almost all synthetic AAS are chemical variants of testosterone and many have the same effects on certain biological functions. The one to focus on in responding to your comment is the Hypothalamus Pituitary Testes Axis or HPTA.

Testosterone productions is governed by the HPTA, which works as a series of checks and balances influenced by serum levels of several hormones and pro-hormones. If testosterone production is too low, the testes signal the hypothalamus to release more leutenizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) the circulating LHRH tells the pituitary to release more leutinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FsH). When the circulating LH and FSH reach the testes they signal the leydig cells to produce more sperm and testosterone.

When test levels are too high the testes signal the hypothalamus to release less LHRH, and then production decreases or stops.

Now i could dissect the human sex drive, but to make it simple lets just say Testosterone is a key element in your sex drive.

Nandrolones (like Deca) are nortestosterone, a deviation of TESTOSTERONE, and it inhibits your HPTA just like testosterone. Trenbolones (Fina) are a deriviative of Nandrolones (except much more powerful) and also inhibit your HPTA.

High levels of Testosterone, Nandrolones and Trenbolones including others all inhibit your HPTA, however, Testosterone is the only hormone that can stimulate your sex drive. Even though it inhibits your HPTA, it simply replaces endogenous testosterone, so you still have a sex drive (an increased one at that) because you still have regular old testosterone flowing through your system; while the altered versions do nothing of the sort. So if you do a Deca only cycle, you have very low to no circulating testosterone because your HPTA is suprpressed, and Nortestosterone doesnt affect your libido in the positive way testosterone does, thus your sex drive is nothing.

Hope i didnt make that too confusing

[buffedude]

This is a very reasonale approach. Bottom line should always be to use the minimum dosages that provide reasonable results and to minimize side effects. For example, person A having used 800mg of test/week compared to person B that "only" used 400mg/week will see better gains (assuming diet/training are similar). A lot of this "better gain" is water retention. With adequate PCT for both, person A may end up in the same shape as person B weeks after the cycle is over; the only difference being that person A has risked more potential side effects, and perhaps, has also had a less aesthetic physique during the cyle also.

Different people respond differently to anabolic steroids, but there are still those that, despite having done several cycles, still do respond to low doses of testosterone (300-400mg/week). Now, keeping testosterone at a low dose while taking other anabolics, as Duck of Death suggests, only makes sense if the agent used is minimally aromatized. Usind Deca while on low dose test, somewhat defeats the purpose, as most people retain a lot of fluid (depending on the diet) on Deca. Suitable anabolics to be taken with lower dose Test would be tren, anavar, Equipoise, turanabol,winstrol,....

Taking an AI like letrozole, as 1-Cent suggests, would help the water retention issue, but does terrible things to the lipid profile. Check a fasting lipid panel on a cycle with and without letrozole and you'll see the difference. Aromasin is the only AI that is relatively lipid-neutral/friendly....

[stupidhippo]

High levels of Testosterone, Nandrolones and Trenbolones including others all inhibit your HPTA, however, Testosterone is the only hormone that can stimulate your sex drive. Even though it inhibits your HPTA, it simply replaces endogenous testosterone, so you still have a sex drive (an increased one at that) because you still have regular old testosterone flowing through your system; while the altered versions do nothing of the sort. So if you do a Deca only cycle, you have very low to no circulating testosterone because your HPTA is suprpressed, and Nortestosterone doesnt affect your libido in the positive way testosterone does, thus your sex drive is nothing.

Hope i didnt make that too confusing

Can you explain why test is the only one that can stimulate the sex drive.. assuming that they all bind to the same receptor it doesnt sound very logical, I believe it but I would ike to know whi it is so.. Especially since all the AAS can have masculizing effects on women etc.. .

[kingofmasters]

Specifically, knowing what I do about biochemistry and physiology.

Not trying to be a jerk, but what is it of your knowledge that you are referring to?

I think you are confusing two things: Feedback Mechanisms and Anabolic properties...

Whatever it is that you administer to your body, you are always interfering with homeostasis, especially with sex hormones the feedback loop is almost immediate.

And while that can cause problems, like sex-drive disorders, it doesn't mean that you aren't anabolic (so you still are gaining muscle while shutting down your HPTA; That's why Trenbolone only cycles, though not a good idea, still produce good results).

You have to understand that steroids are just lipids; alterations of cholesterol; which cause their unique properties...
though if you look at the diversity of these molecules ranging from Vitamin D till Testosteron till MethylTrenbolone they don't quite explain the diversity in actions pathologically and physiologically speaking...

I mean think about it; why does boldenone stimulate appetite and red blood cell count; while trenbolone destroys stamina and is so good for fat loss?
And why do the esters make such a difference in properties (esters for cutting, esters for bulking etc...)?
We are still in the process of figuring it all out, but it has to do with indirect actions from growth factors like IGF, MGF and FGF, various neuropeptides and other small chains in the biochemical pool that is our body...
And the time that a particulate steroid is active in the body (so a long ester or a short one) is responsible for mediating all these actions.

I mean come on... --> All the boards want us to believe that it everything can be explained by conversion to the Dihydro-variant and aromatization...

That's why the profiles on steroids on the boards (also this one) are 90% inaccurate and frankly just a joke (I am referring to the so called "quoted researches below" which every story nowadays has, and are mostly irrelevant, and the so called "scientific" explanation which are just either non sense or common knowledge).
So not to refer to the given dosages or real life sides which I think are far more important for the people trying to cycle...

Actually I dissappeared from this board quite a bit, because I was selected to join a Masterclass: "Molecular Medicines", it was real tough and required a lot of dedication and consumed all my free time...
But I managed to pass the exams with flying colors with an essay about selective hormones and their role in muscular hypertrophy (I am referring to the new generation of steroids called syndrogens which are anabolic and androgenic without the "androgenic sides" like agression, hair loss and prostate hypertrophy).

Greets
Kingofmasters

[wilthepill123]

Not trying to be a jerk, but what is it of your knowledge that you are referring to?

I think you are confusing two things: Feedback Mechanisms and Anabolic properties...

Whatever it is that you administer to your body, you are always interfering with homeostasis, especially with sex hormones the feedback loop is almost immediate.

And while that can cause problems, like sex-drive disorders, it doesn't mean that you aren't anabolic (so you still are gaining muscle while shutting down your HPTA; That's why Trenbolone only cycles, though not a good idea, still produce good results).

You have to understand that steroids are just lipids; alterations of cholesterol; which cause their unique properties...
though if you look at the diversity of these molecules ranging from Vitamin D till Testosteron till MethylTrenbolone they don't quite explain the diversity in actions pathologically and physiologically speaking...

I mean think about it; why does boldenone stimulate appetite and red blood cell count; while trenbolone destroys stamina and is so good for fat loss?
And why do the esters make such a difference in properties (esters for cutting, esters for bulking etc...)?
We are still in the process of figuring it all out, but it has to do with indirect actions from growth factors like IGF, MGF and FGF, various neuropeptides and other small chains in the biochemical pool that is our body...
And the time that a particulate steroid is active in the body (so a long ester or a short one) is responsible for mediating all these actions.

I mean come on... --> All the boards want us to believe that it everything can be explained by conversion to the Dihydro-variant and aromatization...

That's why the profiles on steroids on the boards (also this one) are 90% inaccurate and frankly just a joke (I am referring to the so called "quoted researches below" which every story nowadays has, and are mostly irrelevant, and the so called "scientific" explanation which are just either non sense or common knowledge).
So not to refer to the given dosages or real life sides which I think are far more important for the people trying to cycle...

Actually I dissappeared from this board quite a bit, because I was selected to join a Masterclass: "Molecular Medicines", it was real tough and required a lot of dedication and consumed all my free time...
But I managed to pass the exams with flying colors with an essay about selective hormones and their role in muscular hypertrophy (I am referring to the new generation of steroids called syndrogens which are anabolic and androgenic without the "androgenic sides" like agression, hair loss and prostate hypertrophy).

Greets
Kingofmasters

Welcome back Kingofmasters, I havent seen you in a while. Interestingly enough reading a post by you is what made me decide to become a member of AR. Syndrogens huh? Can you suggest any literature that i can follow to familiarize myself with this new generation of steroids?

Anyways this thread has gone a bit off topic. Duck of Death, your suggestion is definitely an interesting one. Perhaps you would consider using yourself as a test subject and posting your results on AR?

[kingofmasters]

Thanks for the compliment man!

here are some links about syndrogens (took them from a dutch website to just take "the studies that can be understood by the general public")

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=9514878

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12161060

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12488554

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12604713

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12604714

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14600402

Greets
Kingofmasters

[Duck of Death]

Not trying to be a jerk, but what is it of your knowledge that you are referring to?

I think you are confusing two things: Feedback Mechanisms and Anabolic properties...

Whatever it is that you administer to your body, you are always interfering with homeostasis, especially with sex hormones the feedback loop is almost immediate.

And while that can cause problems, like sex-drive disorders, it doesn't mean that you aren't anabolic (so you still are gaining muscle while shutting down your HPTA; That's why Trenbolone only cycles, though not a good idea, still produce good results).

You have to understand that steroids are just lipids; alterations of cholesterol; which cause their unique properties...
though if you look at the diversity of these molecules ranging from Vitamin D till Testosteron till MethylTrenbolone they don't quite explain the diversity in actions pathologically and physiologically speaking...

I mean think about it; why does boldenone stimulate appetite and red blood cell count; while trenbolone destroys stamina and is so good for fat loss?
And why do the esters make such a difference in properties (esters for cutting, esters for bulking etc...)?
We are still in the process of figuring it all out, but it has to do with indirect actions from growth factors like IGF, MGF and FGF, various neuropeptides and other small chains in the biochemical pool that is our body...
And the time that a particulate steroid is active in the body (so a long ester or a short one) is responsible for mediating all these actions.

I mean come on... --> All the boards want us to believe that it everything can be explained by conversion to the Dihydro-variant and aromatization...

That's why the profiles on steroids on the boards (also this one) are 90% inaccurate and frankly just a joke (I am referring to the so called "quoted researches below" which every story nowadays has, and are mostly irrelevant, and the so called "scientific" explanation which are just either non sense or common knowledge).
So not to refer to the given dosages or real life sides which I think are far more important for the people trying to cycle...

Actually I dissappeared from this board quite a bit, because I was selected to join a Masterclass: "Molecular Medicines", it was real tough and required a lot of dedication and consumed all my free time...
But I managed to pass the exams with flying colors with an essay about selective hormones and their role in muscular hypertrophy (I am referring to the new generation of steroids called syndrogens which are anabolic and androgenic without the "androgenic sides" like agression, hair loss and prostate hypertrophy).

Greets
Kingofmasters

..........I refer to my knowledge gained as a result of my line of business, which is in the medical profession. Your post is well done, although it does not support or refute my original premise of supplementing the body's natural testosterone which is suppressed by administration of test or other anabolics and relying upon the other AS like Tren, Var, Winstrol, etc. for gain without the usual sides of water retention and libido alterations due to high test levels which so often are reported by bros on the board who use high test dosages ALONG WITH a stack. As Wilthepill suggests, I am indeed trying this approach and am into the first week of my cycle consisting of 200mg. test cyp/week, 75 mg. Tren EOD, and Superdrol 20mg/day for the last four weeks. The total cycle length will be six weeks. We will see how it goes!! I would like to see some lean mass gains with minimal water weight and no alteration of libido (have had nut-busting issues before with high test dosages). After PCT I am looking for little weight loss, but less total weight gained than if I did a high test-dose cycle.

[stupidhippo]

Interesting articles.. really.. These new things could possibly produce drugs that would allow us to get great gains in the gym without too much sides and no need for PCT.. I honestly wouldnt mind that =) .... ofcourse there is a long way prolly to go b4 we get to see these drugs on the shelves of pharmacies... Did I interpret this right??

[Property of Steroid.com]

..........I refer to my knowledge gained as a result of my line of business, which is in the medical profession. Your post is well done, although it does not support or refute my original premise of supplementing the body's natural testosterone which is suppressed by administration of test or other anabolics and relying upon the other AS like Tren, Var, Winstrol, etc. for gain without the usual sides of water retention and libido alterations due to high test levels which so often are reported by bros on the board who use high test dosages ALONG WITH a stack.

Don't even bother explaining yourself to him. He never supports or refutes anything with any kind of facts...he just waves the "you're wrong, and I'm right and so smart" flag around....I've proven him wrong and he still comes around telling me how smart he is, and insulting members. He's just been banned for those reasons.

[Duck of Death]

Since I posted this, I am on the second week of a cycle which consists of test cyp at only 200mg/week, Tren at 75 mg EOD, and some M1T for the first two weeks (had some I wanted to finish up). The last six weeks will use Superdrol as my oral. I am using Liquidex at .5mg EOD and Cabergoline at .5mg twice/week for prolactin reduction. HCG at 250iu twice /week for testicular shrinkage. So far, I feel good! No bloating, and the test effects on my libido are in full swing (pun intended). I started at a weight of 178 lbs and am now at 180. So far, no rapid heartbeat at night like when I was using high test, and BP is normal (128/82). I am NOT pounding down a lot of food, as LBM is my goal. I have noticed no sides from the Tren so far. Of course, I am still doing 1.5 iu of Jintropin/day taking sat. and Sunday off.
I'll keep you posted!!

[Duck of Death]

..........I neglected to mention I started this cycle with some M1T added in cause I had some left - what a mistake!! It gave me MAJOR acne last time I tried it and Guess what?? It did it to me again!! No more......I just deep-sixed it today!! So its just the test and Tren until next week when I start the Superdrol. I also am upping the Jintropin to 2iu/day next week.

[wilthepill123]

Screw M1T, i've tried that crap. I found some last night when i was cleaning out my "roid cabinet" (i.e. a shoebox) and promptly flushed it down my crapper

[Duck of Death]

Screw M1T, i've tried that crap. I found some last night when i was cleaning out my "roid cabinet" (i.e. a shoebox) and promptly flushed it down my crapper

..Well, if your toilet breaks out in Zits, I wont be surprised!

[stupidhippo]

yeah, keep us posted..

[duke911]

Hey duck, just wondering how things were going.. Very interested in a lower dose test and var cycle. Plenty of time to research though. keep us posted. thanks