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  1. #1
    NightOp is offline Member
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    Arrow dangers of deca? Check out this link

    Ok guys... found this over at another board (as much as I hate to admit spending time away from AR ) The guy that wrote it seems very very knowledgeable in all his posts.... but I have no idea as to the truth of this particular thread, plz check it out, could be very important.

    Dr. Evil, not wanting to spur another 8 page debate with a mod from a diff forum like what happened at BB.com (although I doubt that will happen because the guy that wrote the thread seems to be much more of a class act than "some mods" at other boards) , but I would love to hear your thoughts along with everyone else's.

    here it is > http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...threadid=12519

    here is the study posted in the first post to save you some time if you don't want to read the whole thread.

    "The Study: Two hypogonadal former anabolic steroid users were studied. Normal levels of LH are >3.6 IU/L and Testosterone are 3001000 ng/dl. Former anabolic steroid users often have suppressed levels of both.

    The Results: Subject #1 is a 6', 206lb former user of 5002000+ grams per week of anabolics. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=191ng/dl. This suject underwent a 32 day treatment of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=5.2IU/L, Test=1072 ng/dl.

    Subject #2 is a 5'10", 184lb male who used 400 mg per week of nandrolone . His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=45ng/dl. This subject's 32 day treatment consisted of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. There was no change. He underwent another treatment consisting of 60 days of 5000 IU of HCG every 4 days for 4 injections, then 2500 IU every 4 days for 4 injections, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. Still, no change. For the next 32 days, this subject received 5000 IU of HCG every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 IU every other day for 6 injections given with 150 IU of menotropins, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex 2 times per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=9.8IU/L, Test=507 ng/dl.(20) "

    the conclusion was thus that deca can leave you suppressed longer and harder than other forms of AAS, from what I understand.
    Last edited by NightOp; 04-23-2002 at 07:58 PM.

  2. #2
    arthurb999's Avatar
    arthurb999 is offline Anabolic Member
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    Deca lasts longer in your system. (you could test + up to 18 months later I believe).

  3. #3
    NightOp is offline Member
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    ok... but that study is basically saying that it will result in lower test and LH levels... 18 months is a long time to have those levels in subjects#2.

    I have no idea what I'm talking about really, which is why I thought I'd let everyone check this out and see what they think.

  4. #4
    xplicit is offline Member
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    Originally posted by NightOp
    ok... but that study is basically saying that it will result in lower test and LH levels... 18 months is a long time to have those levels in subjects#2.

    I have no idea what I'm talking about really, which is why I thought I'd let everyone check this out and see what they think.
    haha i dont understand all that either. I get lost with all the terminology. We need tnt to break down and explain what all that means.

  5. #5
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    bump, yeah does anyone understand what this is saying?

  6. #6
    NightOp is offline Member
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    It is saying that two guys with very low test levels (due to AAS use) were given treatment to bring there levels back up to normal... The first subject used AAS other than deca ... the second subject used deca.... and when they treated them with HCG , clomid, and nolva the first subject's test levels bounced back higher and faster/easier than the second subject's (who was the deca user)... It does not state how long after each subject's cycle the study was done... so maybe it could be due to deca staying in the system a long time... once again I have no clue... and the fact that this was not a large case study adds to the question of validity.. but still those numbers are scary.

  7. #7
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    This is a little confusing. It says they used nandrolone . Not nandrolone decanoate. So if the base nandrolone has that long of an effect on natural test, then I would guess that with the decanoate ester it would take forever to get nat test going again.

    Lets assume they meant decanoate. It still isn't stated when clomid, HCG , and nolvadex treatment started. For all we know it could have been the next day after the last injection. But, after 92 days of that treatment you would think there would have been some change.

    Hopefully someone with a better understanding of chemistry can clear that one up for us. But it really doesn't seem to make much sense. And it definately isn't very precise on what took place during the study.

  8. #8
    NightOp is offline Member
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    yes... in the following posts in that thread (the link) someone noted that it did not specify deca ... only nandrolone (but it was assumed all forms respectively, therefore deca as well like you said...) bump for someone who knows more about this to comment.

  9. #9
    Ajax's Avatar
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    Don't read too much into this.

    There are only two subjects in this study (far too few to be statistically significant) and for neither subject do they give 1) pre-steroid baseline levels for testosterone or 2) details of exact steroids used (in case 1) and the length of use for the steroids.

    It's couched in a lot of scientific terminology, bu the methodology is far from scientific. You can't draw any real cause-effect relationship between deca & reduced test. levels from this study.

  10. #10
    block is offline Associate Member
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    what about tren does it supress you a long time even though it is a short ester.

  11. #11
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    I'm gonna take this study with a grain of salt. The study or at least the way the guy described it is definately flawed.

  12. #12
    the quest aka ef is offline Junior Member
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    william- ? (sp) the quy who wrote anabolic 2000 and 2002 made it clear that shut down from nandrolone has nothing to do with the ester, decanate or phelypropinate both will shut you down hard.

  13. #13
    NightOp is offline Member
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    Originally posted by Ajax
    Don't read too much into this.

    There are only two subjects in this study (far too few to be statistically significant) and for neither subject do they give 1) pre-steroid baseline levels for testosterone or 2) details of exact steroids used (in case 1) and the length of use for the steroids.

    It's couched in a lot of scientific terminology, bu the methodology is far from scientific. You can't draw any real cause-effect relationship between deca & reduced test. levels from this study.
    I absolutely agree... was just trying to see what everyone thought and maybe someone could provide a case study/evidence for or against the claims of the posted study.

  14. #14
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    Very interesting article. Good job.
    It makes a lot of sense, especially for those who don't know to what to pick for their beginner cycle. It show's obvious disadventages of deca .

    When I first started learning about AAS the first thing that I found on almost every site is that deca is the safest AS out of all. (BULLSHIT) Then within time you learn new things (Newbies, stick around an learn)

    Anyways, i like the article. It shows the disadventage of deca that not many people know about at all. Think, do you want you LH and T levels to come back to normal after your cycle is done or 1.5 year later?
    Being on a very low levels abviously could not be good for your body. This is a pretty scary thing.


    *(I was trying to write someting here that I was thinking about this article but I got lost in my thought - shit)*

    Anyways ***GO EQUIPOSE***

  15. #15
    GenuinePL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GenuinePL
    Very interesting article. Good job.
    It makes a lot of sense, especially for those who don't know to what to pick for their beginner cycle. It show's obvious disadventages of deca .

    When I first started learning about AAS the first thing that I found on almost every site is that deca is the safest AS out of all. (BULLSHIT) Then within time you learn new things (Newbies, stick around an learn)

    Anyways, i like the article. It shows the disadventage of deca that not many people know about at all. Think, do you want you LH and T levels to come back to normal after your cycle is done or 1.5 year later?
    Being on a very low levels abviously could not be good for your body. This is a pretty scary thing.


    *(I was trying to write someting here that I was thinking about this article but I got lost in my thought - shit)* I'm lost

    Anyways ***GO EQUIPOSE***

  16. #16
    Ajax's Avatar
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    Just to be clear: I was not saying that the results might not be accurate; I was just criticizing the methodology and saying that the way the study was done, the results can't be trusted to be conclusive.

    I would love to see some solid scientific work on this if anybody has any; it's important information!

  17. #17
    ironmaster's Avatar
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    This report is meaningless without knowing the age and steroid background of the subjects. For all we know, #1 is 20 and has done one cycle and subject #2 is 53 and has used gear for 30 years....hmmm, sounds like me..... I promise you, my test levels won't come back if you pump a gallon of HCG up my ass everyday till Christmas.
    Bottom line is that everyone reacts differently to steroids . I know a guy who developed gyno one year after his last cycle. Turns out he had never recovered from the one test.....not deca ... based cycle he had done. Youngbloods.....there are risks involved with steroid use . Don't use them if you are not prepared to accept the consequences.

  18. #18
    NightOp is offline Member
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    I agree with you guys.. thnx for the input. If you don't mind me asking ironmaster, do you know what doseage that guy was running? that is some scary stuff... did he do everything right?

  19. #19
    ironmaster's Avatar
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    Sorry, NightOp....was out of town. It was a fairly hefty cycle....over a gram for 4 months. But he is a young guy, in his 20's, and followed the clomid protocol to the letter, so he should have rebounded just fine. You just never know how certain products and combinations will effect you till you try them.
    Another old friend of mine is a well-known competitor, has done tons of gear forever without gyno. He added in one combination of products that kicked off a progesterone based gyno attack......very difficult to treat. He was shocked. I'm using that same combination and no problems at all. So go figure. You just have to accept the risk if you want to be larger than life.
    That's one advantage for the elderly like me.......I just don't give a shit. Got all the kids I plan to have, a fine woman who digs muscle, I don't worry about having pretty hair, and expect to be on hormone replacement therapy for life.

  20. #20
    NightOp is offline Member
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    ok, thnx.. just wondering

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