Important Message: Guys, Always Get Bloodwork Done!!!

[BUYLONGTERM]

I can't stress how important this is. I know guys talk about it, but how many of you actually do it? We all tend to think it will never happen to us. Well, guess what? I got my blood work done and my cholesterol was a whopping 311!!!!

I get bloodwork done every 3 to 6 months. Not only because I am on HRT thearpy, but because It is so critical. I got my bloodwork done last DEC. At that time my cholesterol was 252. I wasn't eating that healthy and was eating a ton of red meat. My dr said, Clean up your diet and you will knock off 50points in a month. Well by the end of Jan, I dropped it 55points. I have been eating decent ever since. Well, 6 months later it soared to 311!!! I want everyone to know I have been either on a cycle, or on HRT thearpy for over a year. I truly now believe that's whats causing my cholesterol to sky rocket. It is common sense not to be on a cycle that long, but we do have guys that do it. We all tend to think "it will never happen to me." I was coming off at the end of August (I wanted to wait till summer was over because I get bad PCT acne), but after reading a thread on another board about this happening to a young healthy guy, I said I need to get my bloodwork done ASAP. THANK GOD I did. It was a wake up call and a huge learning lesson. The good news is my liver values and my kidney values are fine

Be safe guys!!!!! Our health is way to important.

Peace,

BLT

[BUYLONGTERM]

Good reminder. Im getting mine done as soon as I have money and can get a appointment.

Check my cholesterol control post in the sig bro might find something helpfull there. Wont hurt atleast

Hope you get it under control quickly. NEVER touch statins!!

I will read it now!!! Thanks bro!!!!

BLT

[BUYLONGTERM]

did you check homocystein and lp(a) levels by the way?

I got full blood work done. My dr. basically called and gave me a quick summary. I have asked to have the test faxed to me so I can go over it. When I get it, I will let you know!!

Thanks!

BLT

[_Tiger_]

Good reminder. Im getting mine done as soon as I have money and can get a appointment.

I thought they had Government provided free healthcare in Sweden?

Hey informative post Buylongterm!...Thats too bad..Hope to see a post later on down the road saying "MY CHOLESTEROL IS SO FU(KING LOW!"

[znak]

I too learned about blood tests the hard way. I am also on TRT. I thought that things were cool, until I decided to check out the prices at Oasis. I had finished a cycle about three weeks before so my test numbers were low, but my fricking estrogen was off the chart. F*cking clinic way underdosed my teslacs.

Oasis got it turned around, but F*ck, I almost grew tits and probably would have ended up in jail for castrating a TRT doc... f#cking a-hole.

Moral to the story.

Keep reading and get your blood checked.

[ODC0717]

Glad to hear that you caught it before too long went by. Good post bro hope the rest of your blood work looks good.

[BUYLONGTERM]

I thought they had Government provided free healthcare in Sweden?

Hey informative post Buylongterm!...Thats too bad..Hope to see a post later on down the road saying "MY CHOLESTEROL IS SO FU(KING LOW!"

Thanks bro!!!

[Seattle Junk]

Good reminder. Im getting mine done as soon as I have money and can get a appointment.

Check my cholesterol control post in the sig bro might find something helpfull there. Wont hurt atleast

Hope you get it under control quickly. NEVER touch statins!!

Yes, everybody read Johan's cholesterol post. Johan, I have been taking niacin at 1,500mgs/day for the last few weeks. I need to do blood work next month as well. I just changed companies so my health insurance doesn't kick in until Sept. 1st.

buylongterm, I'm predispositioned for high cholesterol as well, my father's side. I believe my last reading was 220 about 4 months ago. We all know testosterone lowers HDLs (good) and increases LDLs (bad cholersterol). Too many guys on juice don't do blood work and they should. I know a 23 year kid that juices that had a 300 score. He's a big kid too. You would never think someone that young would score that high but it is genetic disposition. I too have been eating A LOT of red meat since I have been on this tbol cycle. Which is going great. I'm 202lbs and leaner than I've been in 10 years. I eat red meat while on cause it's the best source of protein/iron that works good for me. It's not just red meat, it's a combined diet high in fat, trans fats. Nothing wrong with fat, just the type of fat. Also I believe bad carbs impact bad cholesterol? Is that right Johan?

[BUYLONGTERM]

Bump

[TheChosenOne]

spot on. Saturated fats isnt bad. They are kind of neutral. its the trans fats that are bad.

I highly doubt if you polled 100 RD's that many would agree with this statement. I know that none of the RD's I work with regularly would ever support the consumption of Saturated Fats in any large quantity.

In the classic Seven Countries Study by Keys it was determined that for every 1% increase in total energy intake from Saturated Fatty Acids (SFA) a 2.7mg/dl increase in plasma cholesterol was reported. Therefore raising your consumption of SFA from 7% (total kcal) to 17% would yield a net increase of 27mg/dl in total plasma cholesterol.

[BUYLONGTERM]

FYI, I just got my results faxed to me.

Total - 311 - should be under 200
HDL - 29 - Should be over 40
LDL - 263 - should be under 100
Triglyceride - 96 should be under 150

[BUYLONGTERM]

I just read on my test where it says

"When fasting, triglyceride levels are greater than 400mg/dl, calculated LDL-Cholesterol levels are unreliable. It is recommended that direct LDL-cholesterol measurement be ordered.

If Im reading this correctly, it is saying that if my triglyceride levels were over 400, then the test was unreliable.(though they were only 96) But, my question is I fasted for 18 hours, could that effect my readings?????

[Seattle Junk]

was it a increase in both ldl and hdl. A increase in total cholesterol means nothing.

I would like links to that though just to read more about it. Every book I have read in nutrition states what I said.

Also keep in mind 100 years ago we got most of our fat from lard, butter, meat. with not even 1/10 of the heart disease today. Makes you go "hmmmmmm"

Very good point Johan. So many people think the choestrol # is the end all. The ratio of bad to good cholestrol is the key.

My father is on medicince and I wish he would just eat better and excercise more in his senior years. He's 68 years old with genetically high cholestrol. When I see him eating ice cream and stuff like that it makes my worry about him. He was so healthy up until about 5 years ago. He and my mother moved to a retirement community in a exclsuive area. It seems a lot of people he met over there eat bad and go to resteraunts a lot. He use to jog and lift and he was in great shape majority of his life. Now he is fat and not in good shape.

[TheChosenOne]

also many studies DO NOT separate betwen trans fats and saturated fats since trans fat is a saturated fat.

Actually trans fats and saturated fats are not remotely the same molecularly. Trans fats begin as unsaturated fats initially, where their double bonds of H-C-O are single bonds they are chemically restructured to add in the hydrogen molecules therefore creating a double bond in order to make trans fats a solid at room temperature and therefore allow them to be used in forms of frying/cooking that require solid fats. Now that the hydrogen ions have been added to the unsaturated fats they are are now too large of a fatty acid chain to be broken down efficiently by the body and used.

Saturated fats actually play a number of metabolic roles that trans fats do not. Hormonally saturated fats actually have a key role in sex hormone developement, hence the reason why no ADA diet would ever advocate eliminated saturated fats entirely from your diet.

Very good point Johan. So many people think the choestrol # is the end all. The ratio of bad to good cholestrol is the key.

In fact many doctors and labs will now return their lab results in the form of a ratio rather than total numbers for this very reason.

was it a increase in both ldl and hdl. A increase in total cholesterol means nothing.

I would like links to that though just to read more about it. Every book I have read in nutrition states what I said.

Also keep in mind 100 years ago we got most of our fat from lard, butter, meat. with not even 1/10 of the heart disease today. Makes you go "hmmmmmm"

That is some what true but I feel that blanket statement could actually hurt the board members by telling them they shouldnt be concerned with total cholesterol levels which is in fact not true. An increase in total cholesterol actually does indicate some problem because generally speaking 99 times out of 100 it is an increase in LDL levels and not that of HDL levels. It is far and away more difficult to increase your HDL than it is to increase your LDL.

I have no links on the study because all of my information comes from RD books. If you would like a very comprehensive bible on this subject matter I would recommend Krause's Food, Nutrition, & Diet Therapy (16th Edition). This essentially the godfather of RD textbooks and what I use in almost all of my RD classes and assessments. It is a peer reviewed and approved text book used by many RD's and MD's.

[TheChosenOne]

just noticed I sound like a semi dick on those 2 posts lol. I might very well be wrong just want more info on it since everyhing I have read contradicts it.

You dont at all sound like a dick. I will gladly discuss nutrition all day. I am certainly not right 100% of the time either. And sadly there are so many studies on topics such as this you really have to weed through all of them to find out the general consensus. I generally choose to go with information accepted by the ADA since it is a peer reviewed organization.

Also let us not lose track of the real reason for this thread. GET YOUR BLOOD WORK DONE. Take it from my shitty results on this recently! Your health isnt a game!

[BUYLONGTERM]

Very good point Johan. So many people think the choestrol # is the end all. The ratio of bad to good cholestrol is the key.

My father is on medicince and I wish he would just eat better and excercise more in his senior years. He's 68 years old with genetically high cholestrol. When I see him eating ice cream and stuff like that it makes my worry about him. He was so healthy up until about 5 years ago. He and my mother moved to a retirement community in a exclsuive area. It seems a lot of people he met over there eat bad and go to resteraunts a lot. He use to jog and lift and he was in great shape majority of his life. Now he is fat and not in good shape.

Unfortunately, my ratio sucks!!!!

[SexyKitty]

NEVER touch statins!!

Sorry, dont mean to hyjack this thread, but I was just wondering Johan, why do you say to stay away from statins?

[SexyKitty]

well I dont like treating dietary deficiencies with meds. Using statins is ignoring the cause and treating the symptom

also read this page
http://vitamincfoundation.org/statinalert/

Why use statins when there is natural ways of doing the same more efficient without sides

Ok, was just wondering cause the way you put it sounded to me like "OMG, don't touch em' they'll kill you", but I mis-read.

I agree, high LDL and low HDL can be treated by modifying your diet. However, as one gets older and has suffered from years and years and years of bad diet and lack of excercise they often end up in the nasty Metabolic Syndrome circle, hypercholesterimia, hyperlipidemia, hyperinsulinimea, insulin resistance, high blood pressure......the list goes on.

These people have so many problems that diet and excercise have been proven not to be enough to fix the problem and they have no choice but to add in a statin, bp meds, etc. in addition to diet and excersise to have a chance in hell of getting to target levels......or on the other hand, just get sicker and eventually develop CAD.

Obviously these are different circumstances where diet should do the trick, but people shouldnt fear meds, sometimes its what it takes to get them better (in addition to dietary changes)

[CapnZ]

Hey Johan - whats your opijnion on policosanol as a cholesterol aid?

[SexyKitty]

well if they choose a statin they might shorten there life since it can lead to INCREASED calcification and increase homocysteine. I dont agree with using a med that might increase the risks of the diseases its there to prevent.

The importance of cholesterole in cardiovascular diseases isnt fully understod either. Statins to me is just as foolish as ssri medications. Toying with things we dont understand because we assume alot.

I should have said its my oppinion not to use it though Not that its clear cut that they can be harmfull. I would never touch them though.

I disagree. In many cases (I'm talkin old, unhealthy people now), cholesterol levels are so out of wak, and they have MULTIPLE risk factors for CAD, lowering TG levels and LDL levels becomes more significant in terms of reducing those risk factors because for the fact that statins do not raise homocystein levels in all people. You have to look at the benefit to risk ratio and decide which is the greater risk. Besides there drugs that people can take to lower homosysteine levels, such as aspirin.

In medecine, a lot more is known about CAD and risk factors than diseases of the nervous system. Hardly anything is known of CNS diseases, because it is just not tangeable, theories can be formulated but it's still very abstract. For example, we know how we can prevent heart disease, we can't "prevent" depression, so comparing cholesterol drugs to SSRI's or other drugs for CNS diseases is not a fair comparison imo.

Just my opinion though As I'm sure you;ve seen, I like to argue both sides.

[TheChosenOne]

http://www.statinalert.org/mainpage.html

Sorry but I put no weight into a website run solely by a random Anthony Colpo whos bio reads "an independent researcher and certified fitness consultant with 20 years' experience in the physical conditioning arena. A thirty-six year old Australian who does not have heart disease and who has never taken a statin pill in his life" If Mr Colpo had medical training and knowledge his opinions would hold water.

[CapnZ]

http://www.genesiscenter.com/policosanol.htm

Check out the aboce link for anyone intersted in policosanol. It's an intersting suppliment that I've been researching. I've been getting ready to do a 500 mg / wk x 12 week test e cycle and my precycle bloodwork showed my cholesterol as follows:

total: 220
LDL: 150
HDL:45

So I'm now on Niacin (1,000 mg / day) and policosanol (20 mg / day). I'll use this for 4 weeks before starting and continue thru the cycle. Obviously I'm already borderline high and don't want to screw it up any more. Also addiing 10 mg/ nolva a day as hookers post indicates it has a positive effect on lipid profile. Just my .02

[SexyKitty]

Wait a second...I don't think that it's statins that increase homocysteine levels, fibrates do (for lowering TG's). This can be countered by taking aspirin or folic acid, B12 and B6

**fvck I cant spell today

[SexyKitty]

this is written by a chemistry proffesor and fully referenced

http://www.drugintel.com/drugs/stati...cal_review.htm

OK, I'm sorry but I couldnt even finish that article. As soon as he said that TC and LDL are not corelated to cardiovscular disease I had to stop, that is a friggen joke. I guess all the Cardioligists, Endocrinologists, GP's, Researchers and others out there are all wrong about high TC and LDL being an independant risk factor for CHD.

[SexyKitty]

Well, I kept on reading. Here's MY OPINION, sounds to me like this guy is anti-pharmaceutical and in this case specifically anti-statin. Yes he references a lot of studies but without reading those specific studies I cannot comment on the accuracy or legitamacy of them, just because someone references something it does not mean it's significant.

All I am saying is that high LDL and low HDL are risk factors for CHD (this has been shown a number of times, I will try to dig up "references") and statins lower LDL. It doesnt mean your not going to have an MI if your on a statin as there are MULTIPLE risk factors to consider, however statins just lower one of these risk factors.

If you can show me a prospective, multi-centre, double blind, placebo controlled study that proves statins significantly increase all cause mortality then I will indefintely shut up. But until then, these articles, although are interesting, are meaningless to me. Just my opinion, not trying to change yours.

[BUYLONGTERM]

Thanks to everyone for all the useful info. How do they come up with the # when it comes to your total cholesterol reading? It's obviously not the HDL/LDL added up.......

[SexyKitty]

if you cant even entertain a idea since it challanges your belife system then you are truly lost. Im not saying Im agreeing with those pages but I find them interesting and Im gonna dig through it on my own and make up my own mind.

The fact that such a huge number of phd and so on support it tells me something.,

btw guess what most endocrinologists and doctos say about steroids and its dangers. The majority CAN be wrong

I have never done such a thing. Just because I think the writer of one article you showed is a joke does not mean I cant see the other sides. Am I not entitled to my opinion? And yes, when it comes to the ADA and the AHA, their opinions mean more to me than some joe blo phd, it is their specialty and some of them spend their lives researching them.

Just because you take stock in fact that someone has a PHd does not mean I do, we obviously have different ideas of what we find to be credible so please dont insult me by telling me I am "lost". If I disagree with something and you show me something I deem credible then damn right I will question my initial thoughts. It seems to me you unfairly judged me by calling me close-minded, I am anything but, however if I feel strongly about something then it takes that much more until I feel otherwise. God-knows the medical industry has been wrong before so who knows maybe statins will be the next Vioxx (which was also prematurely taken off the market imo).

[SexyKitty]

would studies showing that high LDL isnt neccesarly corelated with CHD be good? Or a study showing way different protective effect of 2 different statis with the same LDL lowering effect implying ldl isnt the mechanism by wich statins protects against CHD?

I dont believe that statins protect against CVD, that I know has never been proven. All I know is that statins work to lower LDL which is a risk factor of CHD. So just cause you lower one risk factor doesnt mean your protecting yourself as there are so many others. However, if you can show me a credible study that shows high LDL and low HDL are not risk factors of CVD then that would be perfect and I will show you one that does indicate that it is a risk factor.

[CapnZ]

http://www.theomnivore.com/LDL_May_2005.html

Johan Sexykitty - heres an intersting link and a little fuel for the discussion fire....

[SexyKitty]

Here's a nice little website on the Franghim Heart Study, you may have heard of it as it has been going on for 50 years. They identified that high LDL and low HDL are risk factors for CHD. They also identified as you mentioned that high homocysteine levels and high CRp levels are "new" risk factors of CHD.

http://www.framingham.com/heart/backgrnd.htm

[SexyKitty]

I will try to find at least the abstract for you, in case you dont already have it.

[SexyKitty]

I guess that is the bottomline. We can both throw studies at eachother that disprove eachother and nothing will come out of it

But the fact that saturated fats isnt a risk factor for heart diseases(you never said it is but thats what started this all) can atleast be determined by simple logic. Look at the different parts of the world where heart diseaes is least comon and avarage lifespan is highest and then look how much saturated fats they eat.

I guess we can agree to disagree now. Sorry if I offended you, this isnt even a topic Im knowlegable about I just get very worked up when debating something and I usualy defend the controversial viewpoints. In this case what I have read from the controversial side makes more sense to me then what I have read from the other side so I will stick to that until I am convinced otherwise.

OK, now I am lost. Is your argument against saturated fats, Ldl, or both? Because I didnt say a thing about saturated fats, dont know enough about it to comment. My argument is end result of high ldl and low hdl.

[SexyKitty]

I am undecided. I am SURE saturated fats isnt a risk factor for cardiovascular diseases and I am in doubt if LDL is. But I am not well read on the last part so I have not taken a stance yet

Ok, well saturated fats I wont even comment on cause like I said, I dont know enough about them. There is a link bw high LDL, low HDL and CVD, but more importantly, there is a greater risk bw the size of the LDL particle and low HDL and cvd. Remeber, I am simply stating that these are a few of MANY risk factors of cvd, all of which we should aim to control. I have to go now but if I get you some good links to some studies will you humour me and read them? I'll in turn read yours, just no time right now, gotta go.

[SexyKitty]

lowered ldl but no benifit....

The UKPDS (United Kingdom, Prospective, Diabetes Study a 10,000 pt, 25 yr study) also couldnt prove that glycemic control reduces CVD, yet we know that hyperglycemia increases the risk of CVD and I know you believe that.

[SexyKitty]

sure Il read them. Cant say when though since on thursday Im leaving for a week. But I am always looking to learn

I think that even if ldl is a risk factor its a overexagerated risk factor while homcystein and lp(a) has been somewhat neglected. We seem to agree on that.

Thanks for a few interesting hours sis

Haha, okay fair enough. We'll leave it at this and pick it up after we have done all our "reading". On one last note, homocysteine has not been totally neglected, it was not understood for a long time and as medecine has evolved they know so much more now about cardiovascular markers. Most likely when the next guidelines for heart disease are published, homocys
teine will be noted as an independant risk factor. The good thing though is that we do have the knowledge on how to rdecrease levels of it (folic acid, b12 and 6)

Thanks for challenging my brain today. See ya

[BUYLONGTERM]

Wow, nothing like a mature debate. All this does is help everyone out. Thanks you 2!!!!

[kloter1]

bump

[TheChosenOne]

I am undecided. I am SURE saturated fats isnt a risk factor for cardiovascular diseases and I am in doubt if LDL is. But I am not well read on the last part so I have not taken a stance yet

If you'd like I'll chemically break down how SFA effect cholesterol negatively. This study has been on going for 35yrs. Why do you think even with the latest research the 2005 Food Guide is designed the way it is? It caters to MUSA consumption and shuns SFA intake. I will trust peer reviewed medical advice over a select few. And also I'm curious as to why you say that other countries (with different diets) dont have the mortality rate the US does. What diets are you referring to? Certainly the eastern european diet is much healther than the western diet, but that is in large part due to abundant wine and fish consumption.

[ianchov]

Hi, Bros!

I have a question(for Johan maybe) - i know that vitamins B6 and b12 neutralize the ascorbic acid(vitamin c) when taken together, so the practice is to make 2-3 hours delay between those compunds.
Is this true?

[LuKe123]

bump