Basics of cycling (now updated)

[JohnnyB]

If you are under 25, it is best for you to have an x-ray done to see if your growth plates are closed. If they are, you can start cycling. If their not please wait, you'll be glad you did.

Keep it simple, don't try and get all your goals out of one cycle. Start simple, use test first, I prefer test with one ester, enanthate or cypionate , I'm not a multi ester gear fan, but that's me. Start at 400-500mg a week for 10 weeks, make sure you have everything you need before starting the cycle. I like nolva for pct and to have on hand encase you get gyno. Some have a hard time during PCT with estrogen levels, they can make the biggest guy, be as emotional as a 13 year old on her period. Nolva will block the estrogen so this won't happen. You don't want to be 20lbs bigger and crying at a chick flic with your/a girl. Although it may get some of you in touch with your feminine side, which could help with the chics, but your noodle might not work, so that wouldn't be good

Back to the post, when cycling if you're not gaining, don't think you need to up the dose. What you need to do is eat more food, you can do all the gear you want but if the calories aren't there to promote growth, more gear isn't going to do anything. Your diet is going to determine what your cycle is. If you're eating everything in sight it's going to be a bulker, if you're eating protein like a mad man, with moderate amounts of carbs and good fats, it's going to be a lean mass cycle. If you're limiting your carbs and doing lots of cardio, it's a cutter.

Here's why I like introducing one compound at a time into your body. First of all, you'll know how your body reacts to that compound, good or bad. If you use 2 compounds you've never used, if something starts going wrong you won't know what's causing it. Secondly, adding a new compound to your second cycle, is almost like doing a first cycle again. Here's why, remember I said almost. You are introducing a new compound to the mix, it's hitting the receptors different, so to speak, then the first compound. Which will add a different reaction from the cycle. Deca is more androgenic , EQ raises Red Blood Cell count, which all gear does but EQ more so.

Third cycle try a new compound with the test, if you use EQ on the second cycle, try deca on this one or the other way around depending on what you ran on the second cycle.

Fourth cycle, you can add an oral or try trenbolone , I wouldn't try trenbolone and an oral in the same cycle, unless you've run one of them before, but at this point, they should both be new to you.

Fifth cycle would be adding an oral or the trenbolone, depending on what you decided for your 4th. If you follow this plan, you can get some nice gains from all these, because of the introduction of a new drug to your body with each new cycle. Once you've went through this protocol, you can do the same cycle with higher doses or a combination of three compounds at the same dose used before.

With deca and EQ you might want to go 12 weeks, since they both have a longer ester on them, peak levels take up to 6-7 weeks to peak, run your enanthate or cypionate one week passed either one, if you use sustanon , it doesn't matter, because one of the esters clears at the same rate as EQ and Deca. Don't go over 400mg a week with either. When you hit the trenbolone, go 10 weeks with trenbolone enathate and 6-8 weeks if you go with trenbolone acetate with test propionate .

I don't see the point of more then 3 compounds. I've done 7-8 cycle and this is my first going over a gram of combined gear. It's test c/tren e/EQ, each at 200mg every 3 days, about 1400mg a week, I'll drop the tren e at week 13 and add masteron enanthate for 12 more, may switch to test e. Keeping the EQ/ Mast at around the 400-450mg mark and upping the test to 750mg Back to the post.

Using HCG during a cycle, anything over 10 weeks or the use of any 19-nor. Needs to have HCG run with the cycle, 300-500iu every 3-5 days. Run it up to one week before you start PCT.

I keep saying PCT, what is that, Post Cycle Therapy , this is to restore your natural test levels. The reason for running HCG during a cycle. Is to keep your nuts from shrinking, this gives your body one less thing to recover from, so PCT can get to the work of restoring the HPTA.

I don't like standardized PCT's, what I mean is, 3 weeks of clomid at certain doses or 4 weeks of nolva at certain doses. I believe all PCT should be run until your sex drive is back and in full swing. I also believe they should have some dose of nolva in them. Because nolva blocks estrogen, clomid lacks in this area. You don't want unchecked estrogen during PCT. Whatever PCT you run, keep running nolva until that sex drive is back. You need to research PCT and go with what you think will work for you, just remember to run that ending dose with nolva, until that wood is working.

I hope I covered it all, I know I didn't but I tried

I know I didn't mention LR3 IGF-1, slin or HGH. The HGH would be more age dependent, slin I'd wait until after the 5th cycle and LR3 IGF-1, would be more on individual basis, but would be great during PCT. Once you hit the slin, LR3 IGF-1 and slin can be a great bridge between cycles. You can do 4 weeks of LR3 IGF-1, then 4 weeks of slin, repeat those 2 again and you have 16 weeks between cycles, you can use them in the order you like.

I think this covers it now

JohnnyB

[thejuiceisloose]

If you are under 25, it is best for you to have an x-ray done to see if your growth plates are closed. If they are, you can start cycling. If their not please wait, you'll be glad you did.

Keep it simple, don't try and get all your goals out of one cycle. Start simple, use test first, I prefer test with one ester, enanthate or cypionate , I'm not a multi ester gear fan, but that's me. Start at 400-500mg a week for 10 weeks, make sure you have everything you need before starting the cycle. I like nolva for pct and to have on hand encase you get gyno. Some have a hard time during PCT with estrogen levels, they can make the biggest guy, be as emotional as a 13 year old on her period. Nolva will block the estrogen so this won't happen. You don't want to be 20lbs bigger and crying at a chick flic with your/a girl. Although it may get some of you in touch with your feminine side, which could help with the chics, but your noodle might not work, so that wouldn't be good :laugh4:

Back to the post, when cycling if you're not gaining, don't think you need to up the dose. What you need to do is eat more food, you can do all the gear you want but if the calories aren't there to promote growth, more gear isn't going to do anything. Your diet is going to determine what your cycle is. If you're eating everything in sight it's going to be a bulker, if you're eating protein like a mad man, with moderate amounts of carbs and good fats, it's going to be a lean mass cycle. If you're limiting your carbs and doing lots of cardio, it's a cutter.

Here's why I like introducing one compound at a time into your body. First of all, you'll know how your body reacts to that compound, good or bad. If you use 2 compounds you've never used, if something starts going wrong you won't know what's causing it. Secondly, adding a new compound to your second cycle, is almost like doing a first cycle again. Here's why, remember I said almost. You are introducing a new compound to the mix, it's hitting the receptors different, so to speak, then the first compound. Which will add a different reaction from the cycle. Deca is more androgenic , EQ raises Red Blood Cell count, which all gear does but EQ more so.

Third cycle try a new compound with the test, if you use EQ on the second cycle, try deca on this one or the other way around depending on what you ran on the second cycle.

Fourth cycle, you can add an oral or try trenbolone , I wouldn't try trenbolone and an oral in the same cycle, unless you've run one of them before, but at this point, they should both be new to you.

Fifth cycle would be adding an oral or the trenbolone, depending on what you decided for your 4th. If you follow this plan, you can get some nice gains from all these, because of the introduction of a new drug to your body with each new cycle. Once you've went through this protocol, you can do the same cycle with higher doses or a combination of three compounds at the same dose used before.

With deca and EQ you might want to go 12 weeks, since they both have a longer ester on them, peak levels take up to 6-7 weeks to peak, run your enanthate or cypionate one week passed either one, if you use sustanon , it doesn't matter, because one of the esters clears at the same rate as EQ and Deca. Don't go over 400mg a week with either. When you hit the trenbolone, go 10 weeks with trenbolone enathate and 6-8 weeks if you go with trenbolone acetate with test propionate .

I don't see the point of more then 3 compounds. I've done 7-8 cycle and this is my first going over a gram of combined gear. It's test c/tren e/EQ, each at 200mg every 3 days, about 1400mg a week, I'll drop the tren e at week 13 and add masteron enanthate for 12 more, may switch to test e. Keeping the EQ/ Mast at around the 400-450mg mark and upping the test to 750mg :eyes: Back to the post.

Using HCG during a cycle, anything over 10 weeks or the use of any 19-nor. Needs to have HCG run with the cycle, 300-500iu every 3-5 days. Run it up to one week before you start PCT.

I keep saying PCT, what is that, Post Cycle Therapy , this is to restore your natural test levels. The reason for running HCG during a cycle. Is to keep your nuts from shrinking, this gives your body one less thing to recover from, so PCT can get to the work of restoring the HPTA.

I don't like standardized PCT's, what I mean is, 3 weeks of clomid at certain doses or 4 weeks of nolva at certain doses. I believe all PCT should be run until your sex drive is back and in full swing. I also believe they should have some dose of nolva in them. Because nolva blocks estrogen, clomid lacks in this area. You don't want unchecked estrogen during PCT. Whatever PCT you run, keep running nolva until that sex drive is back. You need to research PCT and go with what you think will work for you, just remember to run that ending dose with nolva, until that wood is working.

I hope I covered it all, I know I didn't but I tried :mexican:

JohnnyB

And that's why JB is a Super Moderator. Good job bro, I agree with EVERYTHING. Great post, keep up the good work

[BlInDsIdE]

great info johnny

[Smak]

Well informative post for a brand new moderator. Nice job bruh!

[Keyser Sozey]

I'm a girl on clomid.....

Some have a hard time during PCT with estrogen levels, they can make the biggest guy, be as emotional as a 13 year old on her period. hahahaha... This is me on clomid... Nolva will block the estrogen so this won't happen. You don't want to be 20lbs bigger and crying at a chick flic with your/a girl. LOL, this is also me getting teary eyed to the Lion King, when they kill Mufasa.

[Blown_SC]

Nice post JB.

Well informative post for a brand new moderator. Nice job bruh!

He's been a mod for a long time; was promoted one step higher.

[fballhoss51]

Sticky: New People Looking for First Cycle!!!

[WildCh1ld]

Great post bro!

[JohnnyB]

I'm a girl on clomid.....

I hear ya Bro, my daughter was doing a report on the "I have a dream" speech, I couldn't read it without crying. It's an inspirational speech to began with, but on clomid, Dayum

JohnnyB

[G-13]

sticky

[dragon69]

GREAT!
Hopefully this will reduce the number of times this has to be addressed.

One thing though, you can't entirely Xray for growth plates, because it's not really that they're closed, but that they're SEALED. That doesn't show on Xray very easily, most certainly NOT in a 25 year old, more like 40+. Just for your own information.

[100m champ]

nice post.. BUMP!

[G-13]

GREAT!
Hopefully this will reduce the number of times this has to be addressed.

One thing though, you can't entirely Xray for growth plates, because it's not really that they're closed, but that they're SEALED. That doesn't show on Xray very easily, most certainly NOT in a 25 year old, more like 40+. Just for your own information.

closed and sealed..same thing right.. your done growing..have seen it on some one youger that 25 and it was very easily detectable..just for your own information

[lfrisbee]

Stick Key

[JohnnyB]

I updated it with slin, HGH and LR3 IGF-1

JohnnyB

[956Vette]

Great read JB

[hatchblack]

good stuff Johnny. I am thinking of sticking with one compound for my first one because of your ideas behind calculating the sides with one compound.

Also, everyone never mentions Ldex...do you guys just prefer Nolva for estrogen blocking vs. Ldex for aromitization blocking...?

[LeanMeOut]

Awesome post

[dragon69]

closed and sealed..same thing right.. your done growing..have seen it on some one youger that 25 and it was very easily detectable..just for your own information

I'm not refering to height though, more like width. See height is due to the closure of the epiphysis (which are closed by about 18), whereas width is from the mediphysis which becomes sealed after about the age of 25-26. There's a difference.

So yes an Xray will detect closure at the epiphysis (height) but not sealing of the mediphysis (width) in such a young person. So when you mention 25yrs old I know you must be refering to the sealing of the mediphysis and thus won't be detected yet through Xray.

[grimnlock]

NOW.... this is why Johnny B is a SUPER Moderator
Great post bro...

[Property of Steroid.com]

Keep it simple, don't try and get all your goals out of one cycle. Start simple, use test first, I prefer test with one ester, enanthate or cypionate , . If you're limiting your carbs and doing lots of cardio, it's a cutter.

JohnnyB

adding a new compound to your second cycle Deca is more androgenic, EQ raises Red Blood Cell count, which all gear does but EQ more so....

Incorrect.

When compared to Testosterone (your suggested first cycle), a second cycle where you add Deca would not be adding a more androgenic drug, as you claim. You would actually be adding a less androgenic drug. Deca is less androgenic than test (it is 1/3rd as androgenic).

Androgenic Rating of Testosterone = 100
Androgenic Rating of Deca= 37

(*Source: Androgens and Anabolic Agents: Chemistry and Pharmacology, by Jules A. Vida, Academic Press, 1969.)

[SHAOKAHN]

Straight foward and easy to understand with detail, I like your style. Just about anybody could read this, and catch what your throwing.

[Orion141]

Johnny, does this mean that if you are 19 or 20, and your growth plates are cloesed, then it would be ok to run a cycle? Thanks


Orion

[JohnnyB]

Johnny, does this mean that if you are 19 or 20, and your growth plates are cloesed, then it would be ok to run a cycle? Thanks


Orion

At that age your hormonal system is still developing, if your plate are closed maybe 23 or so would be a good age to start, but I'm not a Dr. This is a generalized formula for cycling

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

Incorrect.

When compared to Testosterone (your suggested first cycle), a second cycle where you add Deca would not be adding a more androgenic drug, as you claim. You would actually be adding a less androgenic drug. Deca is less androgenic than test (it is 1/3rd as androgenic).

Androgenic Rating of Testosterone = 100
Androgenic Rating of Deca= 37

(*Source: Androgens and Anabolic Agents: Chemistry and Pharmacology, by Jules A. Vida, Academic Press, 1969.)

Then you need to change your profiles, the info I used is from what you have in the profiles for testosterone enanthate and norandrolone decanoate. From your profiles

Deca-Durabolin
(Nandrolone Decanoate)

(Nandrolone Base + Decanoate Ester)
[19-nor-androst-4-en-3-one-17beta-ol]

Molecular Weight(base):274.4022
Molecular Weight (ester):172.2668
Formula (base): C18 H26 O2
Formula (ester):C10 H20 O2
Melting Point (base): 122-124°C
Melting Point (ester):31 - 32 C
Manufacturer: Organon
Release Date (in USA): 1962
Effective Dose (Men): 200-600mgs/week (2mg/lb of Bodyweight)
Effective Dose (Women): 50-100mgs/week
Active life: 15 days
Detection Time: Up to 18 months
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio: 37:125

http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=131230

Testosterone Enanthate

17b-hydroxy-4-androsten-3-one

Testosterone base + Enanthate ester
Molecular Weight: 412.6112
Molecular Weight (base): 288.429
Molecular Weight (ester): 130.1864
Formula (base): C19 H28 O2
Formula (ester):C7 H12 O
Melting Point (base): 155
Manufacturer: Various
Effective Dose (Men): 300-2000mg+ week
Effective Dose (Women): Not recommended
Active life: 15 days
Detection Time: 3 months
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio:100/100.

http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=131230

So the incorrect information came for you, I just quoted you, my bad. In your haste to prove me wrong did you misread the info you provided, either way it came from you, so the wrong info is yours to claim. Looks like this bit you in the ass again

You know hooker I'm an easy guy to get a long with, but I get the feeling that you always want to shot me down or find something to correct me on, so I get defensive, which I shouldn't. I know you have beefs with lots of people, but that's you. I really don't like it, but I won't run from it either, but for the betterment of the board I think it's a waste of our time and doesn't help the member, which should be the goal here.

JohnnyB

[Seattle Junk]

Maybe he meant deca adds more androgens into the cycle ontop of test? Which is true. He's referring to stacking.

I think test only the first few cycles for a beginner is perfect. Test is really all you need until it stops responding as well (receptors down regulated).

[JohnnyB]

Maybe he meant deca adds more androgens into the cycle ontop of test? Which is true. He's referring to stacking.

I think test only the first few cycles for a beginner is perfect. Test is really all you need until it stops responding as well (receptors down regulated).

If you look at the profiles, they have test enan at 100 for androgenic , norandolone is at 125. Making norandrolone more androgenic then testosterone .

JohnnyB

[Seattle Junk]

If you look at the profiles, they have test enan at 100 for androgenic , norandolone is at 125. Making norandrolone more androgenic then testosterone .

JohnnyB

Ok, look at the ratios Hooker has here. 37:125 is inverted, a mistake by Hooker. More like Androgenic/Anabolic . We know Deca is very anabolic since it's a 19-nor that has been altered to limit it's androgenic properties. Androgens are still present, just at a very low level compared to test. That's why women can use it in lower amounts. Now it can become androgenic enough to virilize a woman in higher amounts.

Hooker should apologise for the typo in the info you referenced then jumped you on. You should cross reference all info you find posted in forums. Refernce solid information from the manufacturer or medical journals. I sometimes post inaccurate information by mistake then somebody corrects me here or I realize it later. We're all human....

BTW, you and Hooker do a great job here. I've read most of Hookers profiles and I've learned a lot. Johnny always has good advice for me. Thanks.



Deca-Durabolin
(Nandrolone Decanoate)

(Nandrolone Base + Decanoate Ester)
[19-nor-androst-4-en-3-one-17beta-ol]

Molecular Weight(base):274.4022
Molecular Weight (ester):172.2668
Formula (base): C18 H26 O2
Formula (ester):C10 H20 O2
Melting Point (base): 122-124°C
Melting Point (ester):31 - 32 C
Manufacturer: Organon
Release Date (in USA): 1962
Effective Dose (Men): 200-600mgs/week (2mg/lb of Bodyweight)
Effective Dose (Women): 50-100mgs/week
Active life: 15 days
Detection Time: Up to 18 months
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio: 37:125

http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=131230

Testosterone Enanthate

17b-hydroxy-4-androsten-3-one

Testosterone base + Enanthate ester
Molecular Weight: 412.6112
Molecular Weight (base): 288.429
Molecular Weight (ester): 130.1864
Formula (base): C19 H28 O2
Formula (ester):C7 H12 O
Melting Point (base): 155
Manufacturer: Various
Effective Dose (Men): 300-2000mg+ week
Effective Dose (Women): Not recommended
Active life: 15 days
Detection Time: 3 months
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio:100/100.

http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=131230

[Liftnainez]

g00d p0st

[CapnZ]

Great Read - Thanks Johnny!!!

[JohnnyB]

Ok, look at the ratios Hooker has here. 37:125 is inverted, a mistake by Hooker. More like Androgenic /Anabolic . We know Deca is very anabolic since it's a 19-nor that has been altered to limit it's androgenic properties. Androgens are still present, just at a very low level compared to test. That's why women can use it in lower amounts. Now it can become androgenic enough to virilize a woman in higher amounts.

Hooker should apologise for the typo in the info you referenced then jumped you on. You should cross reference all info you find posted in forums. Refernce solid information from the manufacturer or medical journals. I sometimes post inaccurate information by mistake then somebody corrects me here or I realize it later. We're all human....

BTW, you and Hooker do a great job here. I've read most of Hookers profiles and I've learned a lot. Johnny always has good advice for me. Thanks.



Deca-Durabolin
(Nandrolone Decanoate)

(Nandrolone Base + Decanoate Ester)
[19-nor-androst-4-en-3-one-17beta-ol]

Molecular Weight(base):274.4022
Molecular Weight (ester):172.2668
Formula (base): C18 H26 O2
Formula (ester):C10 H20 O2
Melting Point (base): 122-124°C
Melting Point (ester):31 - 32 C
Manufacturer: Organon
Release Date (in USA): 1962
Effective Dose (Men): 200-600mgs/week (2mg/lb of Bodyweight)
Effective Dose (Women): 50-100mgs/week
Active life: 15 days
Detection Time: Up to 18 months
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio: 37:125

http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=131230

Testosterone Enanthate

17b-hydroxy-4-androsten-3-one

Testosterone base + Enanthate ester
Molecular Weight: 412.6112
Molecular Weight (base): 288.429
Molecular Weight (ester): 130.1864
Formula (base): C19 H28 O2
Formula (ester):C7 H12 O
Melting Point (base): 155
Manufacturer: Various
Effective Dose (Men): 300-2000mg+ week
Effective Dose (Women): Not recommended
Active life: 15 days
Detection Time: 3 months
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio:100/100.

http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=131230

Yup I just quoted what was in the profiles, i didn't give the ratios, but that might be a good idea, to add those ratios to the post. But your right I should of posted the link to the info I used. And you're right I'm human, Thanks God

JohnnyB

[G-13]

Awesome info man..good job

[Property of Steroid.com]

Ok, look at the ratios Hooker has here. 37:125 is inverted, a mistake by Hooker. More like Androgenic /Anabolic .

Right...it's just inverted...it's listed backwards. And clearly if I know that test it 100:100 and deca is 37:125, it is clearly typo, not a lack of knowledge or correct information, as I spotted the mistake in Johnny's post. As I have mentioned many times here, I'm dyslexic:

http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=51

And I sometimes invert numbers inadvertantly as a result.

But I wouldn't think that deca was more androgenic than testosterone , obviously, even if the numbers were mixed up in my profiles. Obviously, if I spotted the mistake, I know which is more androgenic.

You'll note that in this profile:

http://www.steroidsprofiles.com/steroid/info/38

The correct anabolic rating is given. And I wrote that Deca profile, as well as many others on the 'net....
Soooooo....believe me, I know the correct ratio....or it wouldn't be correct on that profile...in addition, the other nandrolone profile here lists the correct ratio:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=165458

Clearly...if I've been posting the same information correctly everywhere else...the mistake is a typo, due to dyslexia (inverting numbers). However...I believe Johnny's is a lack of basic knowledge. Brotellegence at work, if you will.

Hooker should apologise for the typo in the info you referenced then jumped you on.

I should apologize for being dyslexic, huh?

I will, however, go over the profiles and double check the numbers, to make sure they are all in the right place.

You know hooker I'm an easy guy to get a long with, but I get the feeling that you always want to shot me down or find something to correct me on, so I get defensive, which I shouldn't. I know you have beefs with lots of people, but that's you. I really don't like it, but I won't run from it either, but for the betterment of the board I think it's a waste of our time and doesn't help the member, which should be the goal here.

Herein lies the difference. You read my work to learn. If I read yours it's to see mistakes....sometimes they are so egregious that I comment...as I have over the last 2 days.

As to beefs you say I have, etc....well.....you have personally attacked me in public several times, mostly with character insults. Is that for the betterment of the board? Remember, I've kept the issues to relevant subjects, or anabolics, while you have speculated on my character, my attractiveness to the opposite sex, how many friends I have, etc...

[Son Of Khadafi]

The correct numbers are in his other nandrolone profile for durabolin , no need to turn a typo into a war

Durabolin

(Nandrolone Phenylpropionate)

(Nandrolone Base + Phenylpropionate Ester)
Molecular Weight(base):274.4022
Molecular Weight (ester): 150.174
Formula (base): C18 H26 O2
Formula (ester): C9 H10 O2
Melting Point (base): 122-124°C
Melting Point (ester): 20°C
Manufacturer: Organon
Effective Dose (Men): 200-600mgs/week (2mg/lb of Bodyweight)
Effective Dose (Women): 50-100mgs/week
Active life: 5 days
Detection Time: Up to 12 months
Androgenic /Aabolic ratio: 37:125


Effective Dose (Men): 300-600mgs/week

Effective Dose (Women): 50-100mgs/week

[BG]

bump, for the good info, not the bickering.

[TRICK]

Brotellegence at work, if you will.

what the **** does that mean?!

[dirtyvegas]

awesome bros glad the mistake was caught though

~dv~

[bigbouncinballs]

character insults due to your pompous character, hooker. stop masturbating over yourself and own up little boy... johnny got the information from YOU. double check your shit before you post if you're dyslexic, don't blame the mistake on someone else... juvenile.

[bigbouncinballs]

helpful post johhnyb, much appreciated.

[milwood]

I thank both you guys for your extensive knowledge and help--Johnny and hooker!