Natural test levels lower after each cycle?!

[johnsomebody]

Hey bros,

My question is if cycling permanently lowers your natural testosterone levels.

I've done three cycles, all just Test/EQ, Prop/Var and Test Cyp alone. No tren or deca. All with about 6mos off, all with correct PCT.

Four months after my first cycle my test level was 506ng/dl, four months after my second 473, and four months after my third, 429.

The trend obviously is not good and it's putting me off doing it again.

Does cycling lower test levels longterm even if done properly? I didn't think it would but it seems like it is with me.

Any comments?

-I should add this is over about a two year period and the cycles were all about 12 weeks.

[chest6]

bump wana know...

[Pump A Holic]

Hmm...it seems likely that baseline testosterone levels may not fully recover.

I would suggest using Tribulus Terrestris Extract until you feel better.

[Maetenloch]

Your test levels can vary quite a lot depending on the time of day the blood was taken, whether you worked out recently, and many other factors. The difference from your highest level to your lowest is only ~70 ng/dl - this is probably within the normal statistical variation of test levels. Still I would keep an eye on the general trend.
You may want to consider having another test done in a few months and/or waiting longer before your next cycle.

[macrophage69alpha]

Hey bros,

My question is if cycling permanently lowers your natural testosterone levels.

I've done three cycles, all just Test/EQ, Prop/Var and Test Cyp alone. No tren or deca. All with about 6mos off, all with correct PCT.

Four months after my first cycle my test level was 506ng/dl, four months after my second 473, and four months after my third, 429.

The trend obviously is not good and it's putting me off doing it again.

Does cycling lower test levels longterm even if done properly? I didn't think it would but it seems like it is with me.

Any comments?

how old are you?

correct PCT is pretty variable and in many cases rarely "correct".

[chest6]

u could take some tongkat or trib it should get fine after awhile like pump said

[ianchov]

BUMP! for other answers

[Schwarz]

Your test levels can vary quite a lot depending on the time of day the blood was taken, whether you worked out recently, and many other factors. The difference from your highest level to your lowest is only ~70 ng/dl - this is probably within the normal statistical variation of test levels. Still I would keep an eye on the general trend.
You may want to consider having another test done in a few months and/or waiting longer before your next cycle.

Bump and in addition to this you have to remember that natural test levels decrease as you get older anyway. So a difference of 70ng/dl may just be a natural decrease.

I started a thread on this http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=188510 and found a couple of real horror stories. It may be that this is one of the silent side effects of AAS use that can't be controlled. I hope not!

S

[anabolicbruce]

This is scary sh*t. I hope this is not a common trend for guys who use AAS.

[anabolicbruce]

Are there any testamonies of people who havnt screwed up their test levels from AAS? If so, it would be nice to hear those too!

[IRONBULL05]

This is scary sh*t. I hope this is not a common trend for guys who use AAS.

Dude,whats so scary about it.Its inevitable.As you get older your test levels will drop automatically,juice or not.Its the facts of life.Why do you think so many older men are HRT.
Dont sweat it bro.Its going to happen,so just enjoy the ride.

[johnsomebody]

Dude,whats so scary about it.Its inevitable.As you get older your test levels will drop automatically,juice or not.Its the facts of life.Why do you think so many older men are HRT.
Dont sweat it bro.Its going to happen,so just enjoy the ride.

I don't think that's correct -the way I'm going in 6 years my natural test level will be zero.

I understand that there is normal variability and I plan to get another test in a few weeks but all three were taken at the same time of the day.

[johnsomebody]

I started a thread on this http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=188510 and found a couple of real horror stories. It may be that this is one of the silent side effects of AAS use that can't be controlled. I hope not!

S

Well, I think that does it for me and gear. Here's a quote from that thread:


Posts: 19 codexp03 is a member in good standing
My test levels before I did my first cycle: 1120 NG/ML Four years after my last cycle 395 NG/ML and I'm only 26 years old! Play w/ fire all you want, but I did everything correctly and my test levels are now shot for life. I took doctor perscribed HCG and Clomid/Nolva after every cycle. I went to the doc one month ago to see if there were any long-term effects of my gear days 8 cycles which ranged from 200mg test x 8 weeks in my first cycle to 6x that in my last. What did I get? 3k in gyno surgery and a lifetime dependency on test.

I just got my results back yesterday. I'm not sure just yet. I thought about waiting 6 months and then having another test after upping my Zinc and taking HCG to try to jump start my own natural production. If that doesn't work, I'm going to take 200mg of Testosterone Enanthate every week until I keel over. I'm pissed about the whole situation I had high levels in the first place, but I just had to do a couple shows. After my breif career I'm low Test and I've given it pleanty of time, 4 years now. I did everything right, I worked for World's Gym, my cycle designer was a professional bodybuilder, and I saw a doctor before, after, and during my cycles. I had to quit after damaging two discs in my back and decided to stop using 4 years ago, I'm going to regret using gear for sometime now.

[anabolicbruce]

Dude,whats so scary about it.Its inevitable.As you get older your test levels will drop automatically,juice or not.Its the facts of life.Why do you think so many older men are HRT.
Dont sweat it bro.Its going to happen,so just enjoy the ride.

I understand this as much if not more than most experts. I am a senior consultant at an HRT clinic! On that note, I sit in front of 40 year olds who have great testosterone levels(600-800ng) naturally, and I sit in front of men with low testosterone. It is scary to wonder if I never juiced, could I have been one of those 40 year olds with 800ng testosterone naturally? I personally want to avoid TRT as long as possible, especially since I am 24years old and my test level is 405ng after 4 years of cycling(unfortunatly I didnt know enough at 20 to do blood work for baseline).

It would be nice to hear of some stories of people who have succefully cycled AAS and fully recovered testosterone levels!

[Pump A Holic]

Well, this is an interesting thread...

MY TEST LEVELS have always fully recovered, but I have NEVER used an aromatizing or highly androgenic steroid.

So, I can at least safely say that for Turinabol, Anavar, Primo and EQ, your test levels will fully recover. (With tribulus, not clomid or nolva)

Anecdotally, most of my friends who have used "Harder" comounds are now always popping Cialis and Viagra. I always tell them, that it sucks to NEED viagra when your still ion your 20's-- **** even your 30's! I have never used or needed Cialis or Viagra.

I was almost considering running a TEST prop cycle--guess it's back to VAR/TBOL for mE!

~PUMP~

[speak]

There is a price to pay for everything. If my levels are a little lower then thats what I get, but I was aware that I might not be 100% the same before I did any.

I've also been aware of the fact that extacy, coke and alcohol are very bad for me and my brain, but I still did them.

[BuildaBeast]

Man what the hell I wonder what my levels would be if I did a cycle of aas I'm at 363 total test right now

[anabolicbruce]

It would be nice to see some research on this topic. Possibly any studies or experience regarding the FULL recovery of endo-sex hormones after the administration of AAS???

If in fact this is an inevitable outcome of AAS use, we should definetly educate more on this topic. Do we really have to accept the fact that we may never produce adequate tesosterone again??

[ThePhoenix]

screening for test levels in bloodwork can be deceiving. When I was 19 after a year of drug abuse I had my test levels checked. They were 400. That was very low for a 19 year old. I was panicked because I was getting back into lifting. I expressed my concern to my doctor and he told me that those tests are not actually accurate. They can range in a huge gap due to circumstances. He said the only way to really know is to go to an endocrinologist and have them test every few hours for a period of time. I tried to contact an endocrinologist but was turned down because of my age. So I decided to have more bloodwork done. Came back around 1000. You shouldnt worry about levels from one bloodwork. They are not representative of overall levels. If yours are low try getting more bloodwork done. My doc said that natural levels of test almost always rebound. He says he knows some chronic juicers that have much higher test levels than when they are off cycle.

[mark956101957]

That is a great question! Really, I have thought about that I can imagine your natural test does not get back completely although I don't know why it wouldn't. Do another test of your natural level in a few months maybe those four months werent quite enough to allow it all to get back to par. I do know as you get older your own test does taper off and it probably does it a certain percent yearly.

[beyonddriven]

Well, I think that does it for me and gear. Here's a quote from that thread:


Posts: 19 codexp03 is a member in good standing
My test levels before I did my first cycle: 1120 NG/ML Four years after my last cycle 395 NG/ML and I'm only 26 years old! Play w/ fire all you want, but I did everything correctly and my test levels are now shot for life. I took doctor perscribed HCG and Clomid/Nolva after every cycle. I went to the doc one month ago to see if there were any long-term effects of my gear days 8 cycles which ranged from 200mg test x 8 weeks in my first cycle to 6x that in my last. What did I get? 3k in gyno surgery and a lifetime dependency on test.

I just got my results back yesterday. I'm not sure just yet. I thought about waiting 6 months and then having another test after upping my Zinc and taking HCG to try to jump start my own natural production. If that doesn't work, I'm going to take 200mg of Testosterone Enanthate every week until I keel over. I'm pissed about the whole situation I had high levels in the first place, but I just had to do a couple shows. After my breif career I'm low Test and I've given it pleanty of time, 4 years now. I did everything right, I worked for World's Gym, my cycle designer was a professional bodybuilder, and I saw a doctor before, after, and during my cycles. I had to quit after damaging two discs in my back and decided to stop using 4 years ago, I'm going to regret using gear for sometime now.

I certainly hope this isnt true. I agree with some of the other bros I would like to hear more on this topic.

[speak]

I question his test level of 1120 ng/ml before he started

[johnsomebody]

I think the mistake a lot of people make is to assume that if one person reacts a certain way to a drug, all others will as well and of course that's not true. I know one fello who's been cycling for decades and at 52 his test level is 500 and holding steady.

I'm also aware that the lab test does vary a lot -but that it's also important to get blookwork post cycle to establish complete recovery before doing another cycle. That seems to be the received wisdom anyway.

I've always thought a the most important part of the cycle game is longterm recovery -if your natural levels keep falling it's all a zero sum gain, since you'll be less and less able to retain your gains. If you recover well soon after a cycle, you'll more likely keep your gains longterm. That's been my thinking anyway. But the only way of determining if you're one or the other that I know of is just to try and see what happens.

I know people have written here in the past about how they completely fried their nads by abusing steroids when relatively young -like late teens, leaving them producing very little natural testosterone permanently. Ironmaster is one who's stated that flatout.

[johnsomebody]

I question his test level of 1120 ng/ml before he started

Well, one AR dude I know who's 54 came up at 1000ng/dl! That's before doing any gear.

[AG5678]

This is some real scary shit.....

I think the lesson today is it would be wise to get bloodwork done.

AG5678

[jinos]

So when exactly do you get the bloodwork done? I heard it's 2 weeks after pct.

[johnsomebody]

Myself, I've always waited at least four months after PCT each time. Two weeks is way too soon in my opinion. The idea is to make sure I've recovered fully before doing another cycle.

[jinos]

Wait 4 months before I get bloodwork done? Damn, that's a long time.

[mark956101957]

Well you know if you do it right after a cycle your blood work is going to come back all screwed up and off. Four months should be enough to normalize one would think.

[johnsomebody]

That's my take on it.

[chest6]

damn this thread is kinna scary..i agree no one will react the same

[Seattle Junk]

Man, I'm 36...I know my test decreases as I get older. There is no way I could get in the shape that AAS does for me, that's the reality. I don't mind cycling on and off for the rest of my life. Data now shows AAS is HEALTHY if used in controlled amounts in healthy adult males. Damn, I'm not 22 years old anymore and I don't think I am either. But I can provide my body with extra hormones, proper nutrition, training and lifestyle and continue to enjoy life. Your age is just a number, you're in control of your health. Quality of life is what it's all about. That's what I've figured out and have appreciated into my 30's. Do I feel guilty for using roids? Hell NO! Most people my age look like shit and just assume that's the way it is, I'm getting older. Why not bust your ass in the gym and eat right and feel good 24/7? It seems most people in my age group just talk about work and complain about other people. That's BS, I want no part of that.

Let's see, I have a hot little 24 year old gf and a great career. Is AAS ruining my life?

[znak]

Interesting thread. Bump this pup for more input!

[speak]

Man, I'm 36...I know my test decreases as I get older. There is no way I could get in the shape that AAS does for me, that's the reality. I don't mind cycling on and off for the rest of my life. Data now shows AAS is HEALTHY if used in controlled amounts in healthy adult males. Damn, I'm not 22 years old anymore and I don't think I am either. But I can provide my body with extra hormones, proper nutrition, training and lifestyle and continue to enjoy life. Your age is just a number, you're in control of your health. Quality of life is what it's all about. That's what I've figured out and have appreciated into my 30's. Do I feel guilty for using roids? Hell NO! Most people my age look like shit and just assume that's the way it is, I'm getting older. Why not bust your ass in the gym and eat right and feel good 24/7? It seems most people in my age group just talk about work and complain about other people. That's BS, I want no part of that.

Let's see, I have a hot little 24 year old gf and a great career. Is AAS ruining my life?

I agree 100%, you have three years on me, but we think exactly the same. Friends sit there and tell you how bad juice is while they are smoking a cig, and drinking with their gut hanging out. I havn't dated a girl within 8 years of my age since i don't know when.

[Oceans7]

Depressing stuff. 4 months after my last 3 cycles and PCT my test was down to 150 ng/dl !!! It used to be in the 600's ... now I'm on HRT for life I guess. The low test levels kill sex, moods, enrgy, etc., etc. I'd love to haer more on this ... and a SOLUTION other than cycling for life.

[Jsik98]

I went to the doc one month ago to see if there were any long-term effects of my gear days. 8 cycles which ranged from 200mg test x 8 weeks in my first cycle to 6x that in my last.

There's the reason right there! Yeah, if you do 1200mgs of test a week for twelve weeks you're asking for trouble, IMO . I know the fact that a lot of people do take test in high doses like that, but those are the people that are at a much higher risk for permanent side effects. Not to say that someone couldn't live a normal life after dosages that high........but certainly more than less will be permanently scarred in some way. Whether it be low test levels or coronary disease or early baldness, almost everyone who hits it at that high of a dose will have some type permanent side effect. Sad but true!
If you disagree, which I'm sure many will, please state your point. Personally, I'm not at all in denial that I'm in some way damaging my body. I take all the neccesary precautions which will lower the impact of sides, but I'd be a fool to think that injecting these powerful, synthetic, human-made hormones into my god-made body isn't going to have any long term effects. Hopefully it's only something as petty as lowered test levels. All I'm saying is keep things in perspective and it's a given that your hormone levels WILL be changed permanently after taking steroids.

[Jsik98]

Depressing stuff. 4 months after my last 3 cycles and PCT my test was down to 150 ng/dl !!! It used to be in the 600's ... now I'm on HRT for life I guess. The low test levels kill sex, moods, enrgy, etc., etc. I'd love to haer more on this ... and a SOLUTION other than cycling for life.

Not neccessarily. Your body could still be working on getting your levels up again. If you're young then you have a much better chance at that happening than if you're over 30 (for all of you over thirty I'm not calling you old!!) That does suck, though, I wish you luck with that. You could try stimulating luetinizing hormone production with Bulgarian Tribulus 3Xday for 5 days then 2 days off. Try cycling that for one or two months and then getting your levels checked again.

[Ntpadude]

Man, I'm 36...I know my test decreases as I get older. There is no way I could get in the shape that AAS does for me, that's the reality. I don't mind cycling on and off for the rest of my life. Data now shows AAS is HEALTHY if used in controlled amounts in healthy adult males. Damn, I'm not 22 years old anymore and I don't think I am either. But I can provide my body with extra hormones, proper nutrition, training and lifestyle and continue to enjoy life. Your age is just a number, you're in control of your health. Quality of life is what it's all about. That's what I've figured out and have appreciated into my 30's. Do I feel guilty for using roids? Hell NO! Most people my age look like shit and just assume that's the way it is, I'm getting older. Why not bust your ass in the gym and eat right and feel good 24/7? It seems most people in my age group just talk about work and complain about other people. That's BS, I want no part of that.

Let's see, I have a hot little 24 year old gf and a great career. Is AAS ruining my life?

You know before my first cycle I was having low testosterone, low enough to qualify for TRT/HRT. I did a cycle of testosterone and deca, finished with a clomid and tongkat ali PCT and 2 months even after the I stopped the tongkat I did another hormone lab and my natural test levels were triple that of my before first cycle levels! After the second cycle, I ran tongkat ali even longer and found in PCT my natural test levels climbed even higher yet! Then did a 6 month cycle, even after that my natural test levels matched the PCT before that. Its now been 2 years of cycling and in my off periods my test levels are higher then I have ever tested since I was 28 years old!

This might be explained by, maybe I am particularly responsive to clomid, maybe instead of first cycle I should have kicked my HTPA up with just a 9 day clomid cycle but also as a result of PCT's I have been using tongkat ali WITH clomid for PCT's and I think the combination can actually take you several notches higher then before cycles. Maybe some problems can be explained by doing improper PCT's... for example HIGH dose clomid like doses over 50 mg a day according to the manufacturer can be inhibitory, where doing exactly 50 mg is highly stimulating, but also never underestimate the phenominal power of tongkat ali in its own right to lower your SHBG's and stimulate your testosterone levels. When tongkat is combined with proper clomid dosing you are almost assured of a very vigorous recovery.

[Jsik98]

You know before my first cycle I was having low testosterone, low enough to qualify for TRT/HRT. I did a cycle of testosterone and deca, finished with a clomid and tongkat ali PCT and 2 months even after the I stopped the tongkat I did another hormone lab and my natural test levels were triple that of my before first cycle levels! After the second cycle, I ran tongkat ali even longer and found in PCT my natural test levels climbed even higher yet! Then did a 6 month cycle, even after that my natural test levels matched the PCT before that. Its now been 2 years of cycling and in my off periods my test levels are higher then I have ever tested since I was 28 years old!

This might be explained by, maybe I am particularly responsive to clomid, maybe instead of first cycle I should have kicked my HTPA up with just a 9 day clomid cycle but also as a result of PCT's I have been using tongkat ali WITH clomid for PCT's and I think the combination can actually take you several notches higher then before cycles. Maybe some problems can be explained by doing improper PCT's... for example HIGH dose clomid like doses over 50 mg a day according to the manufacturer can be inhibitory, where doing exactly 50 mg is highly stimulating, but also never underestimate the phenominal power of tongkat ali in its own right to lower your SHBG's and stimulate your testosterone levels. When tongkat is combined with proper clomid dosing you are almost assured of a very vigorous recovery.

That's interesting. I'm surprised at the fact you're levels are higher now then before you started cycling. I'd be curious to see if this is a result of simply never being fully flushed of all drugs between tests and what you're seeing in test results is not really your "normal" hormonal state. How long after PCT was you last test taken?

[Pinnacle]

Show me clinical,unbaised,controled studies that Anabolic Steroids decrease you Test levels over time.I'll settle for one study.Go ahead and link it up for all to see.