running T3 (cytomel) on a bulker ??

**The Godfather** · 09-10-2005, 06:28 PM

yo!

i'm about to start a 4 month cycle of test/deca /dbol , with maybe some masteron and var added in at the end, as the deca will finish on week 10

i plan on eating above maintenance in an attempt to add some serious mass over the winter months, i'm considering running some t3 to keep the fat off and to increase protein utilisation on cycle

will it effect my gains negatively at all? or should i be okay to run it and still add a good amount of mass? (i'm aiming to add around 1-2lbs a week)

has anyone done this before and what were results like?

finally what would a good dose be? i was thinking 50mcg would do the job? maybe increasing to 75-100mcg towards the end of the cycle just to lean up a bit

thanks

**vein-x** · 09-11-2005, 12:10 AM

as always, dont go crazy and shut down your thyroid. but cytomel has been known to catabolize. not 20 lbs a day, but let it get outta hand and it might seem like that. as far as clen , yes, i believe it would help the nutrient utiliaztion in the body. good luck, regardless. hope you put on crazy lbm.

**ODC0717** · 09-11-2005, 12:35 AM

I've read about cats using 25mcg daily and keeping their cals elevated without much additional fat gain.

**The Godfather** · 09-11-2005, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by vein-x

as always, dont go crazy and shut down your thyroid. but cytomel has been known to catabolize. not 20 lbs a day, but let it get outta hand and it might seem like that. as far as clen, yes, i believe it would help the nutrient utiliaztion in the body. good luck, regardless. hope you put on crazy lbm.

sorry, are you recommending i run the t3 or go with clen ? TBH i don't think clen on cycle is a good idea, and 50mcg is a pretty low dose of t3, i wouldn't have thought it would cause much catabolism, the test and deca should ensure my muscles stay in a highly anabolic i hope

**Seattle Junk** · 09-11-2005, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by The Godfather

sorry, are you recommending i run the t3 or go with clen? TBH i don't think clen on cycle is a good idea, and 50mcg is a pretty low dose of t3, i wouldn't have thought it would cause much catabolism, the test and deca should ensure my muscles stay in a highly anabolic i hope

Prolonged use and higher amounts of test & tren lowers your thyroid output, supplementing t3 makes sense. t3 isn't just used for fat burning it's also very important in protein synthesis. Check your temp in the morning and try to always be at 98.6 degrees on the nose. You don't want to shit out solid protein that can be used for hypertrophy or store it as fat. That's what I've learned about t3. Blown or somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.

**bor** · 09-12-2005, 02:34 AM

It has nothing to do with fat loss or gain, the point is the increased protein synthesis that occurs with lower doses 12.5-25 mcg

**Alpha-Male** · 09-12-2005, 01:21 PM

how many times do we have to do this?

"Thyroid hormones, on the other hand, offer significant benefits when used cautiously and "properly". They should not be used haphazardly as a fat loss agent however, instead they are valuable in correcting thyroid dysfunction brought on by androgen use. When done properly, T3 is used as "replacement therapy" and serves only to normalize decreased T3 levels. Research has shown that high dose androgens pushes T3 levels down (14,15). This is significant because the real value of optimal thyroid levels is not for fat loss, but instead for optimum anabolic activity. T3 has diverse facilitative anabolic effects including, increasing GH secretion(16,17), up-regulating GH receptors (18), up-regulating IGF-1 receptors (19,20), and other less well defined anabolic effects (21,22). Don’t get the wrong idea however, for T3 to facilitate anabolism, it must stay in the high normal range. A little too high or a little too low significantly changes the biological effects of thyroid hormones. Bringing T3 levels too high will undoubtedly backfire and lead to muscle, strength losses, and rebound fat gain.
You will need regular ../../affiliates/hormone-levels.htm to determine the optimal dose of T3 (e.g. Cytomel ) to bring you up to the optimum range. If you are unwilling, or do not have access to, regular blood work I would not recommend using T3. The old "take your morning temperature" recommendation is simply too inaccurate. Most people use way too much T3 and cause more problems than anything else. However, if you are willing to take care of yourself while optimizing muscle gains, have your free T3 checked before using any T3, yet during your full dose androgen regimen. Try to bring your free T3 levels up to ~7.0-7.4 pmol/L. Your doctor may use conventional units on your blood work which means it will read in "pg/dL". If that’s the case bring your levels up to about 450-480 pg/dL. Doing this will allow optimal caloric intake while minimizing fat gain, as well as optimize the anabolic actions of the androgens you are using."

more info...

"As discussed above, another class of hormones that appears to be important in the normal regulation of muscle protein breakdown is the thyroid hormones. Following thyroidectomy or hypophysectomy, rats exhibit a decrease in muscle protein degradation but administration of T3 or thyroxine (T4) stimulates overall protein catabolism in muscle to normal or excessive levels (N. Tawa, unpublished data). When given experimentally in high doses, or in patients with hyperthyroidism, thyroid hormones cause excessive proteolysis and a loss of muscle mass, and administration of T3 has been found to raise the content of proteasomes in muscle (as well as lysosomal proteases) and to increase the ATP-dependent proteolytic process (as well as lysosomal proteolysis) in muscle (Tawa et al. 1997).

On the other hand, when T3 production falls, there is reduced activity of the Ub-proteasome pathway in muscle, as well as other adaptations that help to conserve muscle protein mass (e.g., reduced proteasome content). Similar changes are seen in muscles of rats fed a low-protein diet and such animals have reduced thyroid function. Clinically, individuals fed a very-low protein diet (but adequate calories) also exhibit a reduction in T3 levels, and there is a decrease in overall protein degradation (Young 1986). As noted above, a reduced thyroid status also underlies the adaptations in muscle that occur in prolonged fasting, and these appear opposite to those occurring in highly catabolic states. Since alternative sources of calories are available in such conditions, suppression of muscle proteolysis would help preserve body protein and essential amino acids"

too little, bad, too much, bad...checking temp., not accurate enough...go ahead Seattle, let's hear it

AM

**Seattle Junk** · 09-12-2005, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Alpha-Male

how many times do we have to do this?

"Thyroid hormones, on the other hand, offer significant benefits when used cautiously and "properly". They should not be used haphazardly as a fat loss agent however, instead they are valuable in correcting thyroid dysfunction brought on by androgen use. When done properly, T3 is used as "replacement therapy" and serves only to normalize decreased T3 levels. Research has shown that high dose androgens pushes T3 levels down (14,15). This is significant because the real value of optimal thyroid levels is not for fat loss, but instead for optimum anabolic activity. T3 has diverse facilitative anabolic effects including, increasing GH secretion(16,17), up-regulating GH receptors (18), up-regulating IGF-1 receptors (19,20), and other less well defined anabolic effects (21,22). Don’t get the wrong idea however, for T3 to facilitate anabolism, it must stay in the high normal range. A little too high or a little too low significantly changes the biological effects of thyroid hormones. Bringing T3 levels too high will undoubtedly backfire and lead to muscle, strength losses, and rebound fat gain.
You will need regular ../../affiliates/hormone-levels.htm to determine the optimal dose of T3 (e.g. Cytomel ) to bring you up to the optimum range. If you are unwilling, or do not have access to, regular blood work I would not recommend using T3. The old "take your morning temperature" recommendation is simply too inaccurate. Most people use way too much T3 and cause more problems than anything else. However, if you are willing to take care of yourself while optimizing muscle gains, have your free T3 checked before using any T3, yet during your full dose androgen regimen. Try to bring your free T3 levels up to ~7.0-7.4 pmol/L. Your doctor may use conventional units on your blood work which means it will read in "pg/dL". If that’s the case bring your levels up to about 450-480 pg/dL. Doing this will allow optimal caloric intake while minimizing fat gain, as well as optimize the anabolic actions of the androgens you are using."

more info...

"As discussed above, another class of hormones that appears to be important in the normal regulation of muscle protein breakdown is the thyroid hormones. Following thyroidectomy or hypophysectomy, rats exhibit a decrease in muscle protein degradation but administration of T3 or thyroxine (T4) stimulates overall protein catabolism in muscle to normal or excessive levels (N. Tawa, unpublished data). When given experimentally in high doses, or in patients with hyperthyroidism, thyroid hormones cause excessive proteolysis and a loss of muscle mass, and administration of T3 has been found to raise the content of proteasomes in muscle (as well as lysosomal proteases) and to increase the ATP-dependent proteolytic process (as well as lysosomal proteolysis) in muscle (Tawa et al. 1997).

On the other hand, when T3 production falls, there is reduced activity of the Ub-proteasome pathway in muscle, as well as other adaptations that help to conserve muscle protein mass (e.g., reduced proteasome content). Similar changes are seen in muscles of rats fed a low-protein diet and such animals have reduced thyroid function. Clinically, individuals fed a very-low protein diet (but adequate calories) also exhibit a reduction in T3 levels, and there is a decrease in overall protein degradation (Young 1986). As noted above, a reduced thyroid status also underlies the adaptations in muscle that occur in prolonged fasting, and these appear opposite to those occurring in highly catabolic states. Since alternative sources of calories are available in such conditions, suppression of muscle proteolysis would help preserve body protein and essential amino acids"

too little, bad, too much, bad...checking temp., not accurate enough...go ahead Seattle, let's hear it

AM

Refer to Blown_SC on this topic since he has way more experience than the both of us. Were you taking cytomel @ 25mcgs ed? Are you still taking t3 to this day? Read the profile here and other places. http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=173205

**Two4the$$** · 09-12-2005, 01:40 PM

Not to hijack, but are there actually people in which 35mcg - 50mcg is too much?

**Alpha-Male** · 09-12-2005, 01:44 PM

yeah, i've read the profile, and from what i remember (damn, it's been so long since i've heard from the MAN), Hook falls in line with this thinking...on cycle, since mine are fairly moderate, i get by very well with 25mcg/day...

**Two4the$$** · 09-12-2005, 01:47 PM

Right, but what I'm saying is, is it acceptable to forego blood work if you're going to be using this in the low range? Such as 40 - 50mcg?

**Alpha-Male** · 09-12-2005, 02:00 PM

sorry, Tru, i was responding to SeattleJ...to answer your question, IMO, yes it's possible, at least in terms of actualized gains/losses, your probably not talking about much difference...it's all about optimization

AM

**Two4the$$** · 09-12-2005, 02:25 PM

Well, obviously it's not the answer I was hoping for. (as though that has anything to do with reality) ... but if you're taking OT or Var at the same time I was under the impression you'd be unlikely to lose any mucsle, if not gain some... (here comes a slight hijack) but if I were trying to get leaner ... and using something like OT or Var at the same time, might I be safe expecting to yeild a benefit with little risk of the negatives (thyroid supression, or catabolism) with a dose of 40-50mcg ED?