Which steroids are best for your joints/tendons/ligaments etc

[catlovesfood]

After years of heavy lifting and juicing my joints are paying the price and hurt, so from your experiences which steroids help relieve - repair them?
(I use fish oils, glucosamine,msm,chrondatin,shark catliaage etc)

[SpeedDemon]

Deca ...I think

[magicstick2003]

search for it, somewhereo n here there is a list of how much the AS increases collagen production, i believe EQ and Deca are the best. But for joints overall i think EQ is your best bet cause it kind of "lubes" them up

[Slic4788]

EQ, Deca , Anavar ...and I'm pretty sure growth.

[dirtyvegas]

read this thread by hooker

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...383&issueID=32

[catlovesfood]

that article is full of shit, it reckons progestin derived steroids cause the joints to heal, I can understand it with deca but not tren .

Ive read the article and I would like hooker to write an article clearly explaining which steroids are needed for improved joints.

Thanks for your help anyways.

[Property of Steroid.com]

that article is full of shit, it reckons progestin derived steroids cause the joints to heal, I can understand it with deca but not tren .

Ive read the article and I would like hooker to write an article clearly explaining which steroids are needed for improved joints.

Thanks for your help anyways.

Tren, although a progestin, does not fit that model because it has too much of an effect on Glucocorticoids/Corticosteroids, and is unique in that respect. The model explained in that article holds true, though, unless other aggravating factors are involved (as with tren).

As for my writing an article clearly explaining which steroids are needed to improve joints, I don't know if I can do it without really infringing on the copyright of the article linked earlier in this thread.

[dirtyvegas]

Ive read the article and I would like hooker to write an article clearly explaining which steroids are needed for improved joints.

.

I would like to see 1 also..It is vary important to know. Lots and lots of peeps ask this question day in and day out.
~dv~

[Property of Steroid.com]

Well...you should be able to read that other article and say something like "Deca , Nilevar , Test to a lesser degree, etc...help joints, while Winstrol , Masteron , Miotolan, etc...probably hurt joints...

But yeah, it's really not written for the boards, in general, because I think...it's maybe complicated...

[catlovesfood]

Come on Hooker, write an article on it - everyone wants to know, it would help alot of people out.

[Hellmaskbanned]

Well...you should be able to read that other article and say something like "Deca , Nilevar , Test to a lesser degree, etc...help joints, while Winstrol , Masteron , Miotolan, etc...probably hurt joints...

But yeah, it's really not written for the boards, in general, because I think...it's maybe complicated...

Yeah! it was to much for my pea brain. I had 2 threads asking the same question as this one.I found out that the steroids with more with progesterone and estrogen caused anti inflammatorys in the joints. So the drugs with more water retention, test, deca,anadrol ...etc. help joints, and the ones without water retention winstrol,anavar ,primo,masteron dont help and can possibly hurt. Well this is what i understood from it.

[catlovesfood]

Well this is what i understood from it

As did I, but I would like an article on this subject - because everyone asks the same question.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Come on Hooker, write an article on it - everyone wants to know, it would help alot of people out.

I don't really choose what I write for this board...System_Admin tells me what we need done...

I choose what I write for Avant/Mind&Muscle and semi-choose what I write for T-Nation, but not here, at all.

[juicyup34]

deca is good, do a search for alflutop that is your answer if your joints are givin you trouble, not more steroids

[shadow maker]

I would say deca is better for you it is very good for your joints because it lubricates them and you can train with less pain

[spywizard]

dont remember the author..but

While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca , Equipoise , Anavar , and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you

[Property of Steroid.com]

Don't remember the author

The author is Animal Mass. We've seen this post resurface around 2 times in the last year, and not one person has been able to get reputable medical confirmation on a single "fact" in it....

I think that it's mostly all bullshit.

[spywizard]

well.. it' makes sense..and from personal use of all these compounds..

I still like it..........

jmo though..

[Property of Steroid.com]

dont remember the author..but

Eq, primo, anavar , and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan , @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

No...as I said, Animal Mass is totally incorrect...procollagen III is a marker of the creation of type-III Collagen (makes sense, right?)....and this creates a WEAKER (!) tendon, not a stronger one...

Orthop Res. 2002 Nov;20(6):1352-7.

Increased content of type III collagen at the rupture site of human Achilles tendon.

Eriksen HA, Pajala A, Leppilahti J, Risteli J.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, University of Oulu, P.O. Box 5000, FIN-90014, Oulu, Finland.

We compared the type I and III collagen amounts and cross-linked telopeptides at the rupture site and two other sites of the same tendon. Tendon samples of ten individuals with total Achilles tendon rupture and six healthy cadavers were collected. The newly synthesized type I and III procollagens were assessed by extracting the soluble propeptides PINP, PICP and PIIINP. The insoluble matrix was solubilized by heat denaturation and trypsin digestion. Hydroxyproline, the cross-linked telopeptide structures of type I (ICTP and SP 4) and III collagens (IIINTP) and the degradation product of type III collagen (tryptic PIIINP) were measured from the digests. The type III collagen content was significantly increased at the rupture site when compared to control sites (5- and 12-fold increased) or cadavers (5-fold increased). No changes in the amounts of newly synthesized type I and III procollagens were observed. The ICTP content decreased and the SP 4/ICTP ratio increased along with ageing, suggesting a structural change in the type of cross-link in the carboxyterminal telopeptide of type I collagen. Type III collagen has accumulated at the rupture site probably due to microtraumas and the subsequent healing process. The increased content of type III collagen can cause thinner collagen fibers, decrease the tensile strength and may finally result in total rupture of the tendon. The age-related change in the nature of the cross-link in the carboxyterminal telopeptide may contribute to this weakening.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass.

"Supra-Physiological levels of Primobolan"? I didn't know there was a physiological level...

How much Primobolan does a normal person have in them? To have a Supra-Physiological level of something, you must first have an endogenous (naturally occuring level...aka physiological level)....Whats a supra-physiological level of Eq? How much Eq does my body normally produce?

[Drummerboy]

No...as I said, Animal Mass is totally incorrect...procollagen III is a marker of the creation of type-III Collagen (makes sense, right?)....and this creates a WEAKER (!) tendon, not a stronger one...

Orthop Res. 2002 Nov;20(6):1352-7.

Increased content of type III collagen at the rupture site of human Achilles tendon.

Eriksen HA, Pajala A, Leppilahti J, Risteli J.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, University of Oulu, P.O. Box 5000, FIN-90014, Oulu, Finland.

We compared the type I and III collagen amounts and cross-linked telopeptides at the rupture site and two other sites of the same tendon. Tendon samples of ten individuals with total Achilles tendon rupture and six healthy cadavers were collected. The newly synthesized type I and III procollagens were assessed by extracting the soluble propeptides PINP, PICP and PIIINP. The insoluble matrix was solubilized by heat denaturation and trypsin digestion. Hydroxyproline, the cross-linked telopeptide structures of type I (ICTP and SP 4) and III collagens (IIINTP) and the degradation product of type III collagen (tryptic PIIINP) were measured from the digests. The type III collagen content was significantly increased at the rupture site when compared to control sites (5- and 12-fold increased) or cadavers (5-fold increased). No changes in the amounts of newly synthesized type I and III procollagens were observed. The ICTP content decreased and the SP 4/ICTP ratio increased along with ageing, suggesting a structural change in the type of cross-link in the carboxyterminal telopeptide of type I collagen. Type III collagen has accumulated at the rupture site probably due to microtraumas and the subsequent healing process. The increased content of type III collagen can cause thinner collagen fibers, decrease the tensile strength and may finally result in total rupture of the tendon. The age-related change in the nature of the cross-link in the carboxyterminal telopeptide may contribute to this weakening.





"Supra-Physiological levels of Primobolan "? I didn't know there was a physiological level...

How much Primobolan does a normal person have in them? To have a Supra-Physiological level of something, you must first have an endogenous (naturally occuring level...aka physiological level)....Whats a supra-physiological level of Eq? How much Eq does my body normally produce?

hooker, you sarcastic bastard LOL!!!

[ou812]

back from the dead:
GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose ***endant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen ***osition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased ***osition of collagen in the collagen structures.

how true is this statement?
how dose hgh therapy effect tendon strenght?
good or bad?
any medical confirmation?

[bubbafrombama]

The author is Animal Mass. We've seen this post resurface around 2 times in the last year, and not one person has been able to get reputable medical confirmation on a single "fact" in it....

I think that it's mostly all bullshit.

No...as I said, Animal Mass is totally incorrect...procollagen III is a marker of the creation of type-III Collagen (makes sense, right?)....and this creates a WEAKER (!) tendon, not a stronger one...

Orthop Res. 2002 Nov;20(6):1352-7.

Increased content of type III collagen at the rupture site of human Achilles tendon.

You're 100% correct that his original post, if it was even his, was nearly wrong on ALL accounts! Here's more proof, to go along with yours above:

DECA -DURABOLIN Weakens Tendons and Collagen

Is it just a coincidence that bodybuilders are more likely to suffer injuries because of heavy training, or does the use of anabolic -androgenic steroids (AAS) have any impact on tendon/collagen strength? The research is very preliminary, as only a few studies have examined the effects of AAS on tendon and collagen strength. It was shown that anabolic steroids alter the biomechanical properties of tendons and reduce tendon flexibility.(1,2,3)

Some interesting theories have been suggested as why heavy anabolic steroid use can cause tendon injury, which is based around cortisol production and AAS. Researches have demonstrated that AAS combined with tension overload reduced MMP2 activity (MMP2 is a gene responsible for collagen production) and increased serum values of cortisol.(4) During cortisol treatment, the serum levels of genes responsible for collagen production decrease, suggesting that cortisol suppresses the synthesis of collagen production.(5) The reduction in genes for collagen and tendons have been speculated as to why AAS makes bodybuilders susceptible to injuries. New research links the use of high doses of anabolic steroids to tendon and collagen dysfunction, which may make a bodybuilder think twice about training heavily while using anabolics.

GENE EXPRESSION IN TENDONS/COLLAGEN AFTER HEAVY AAS USE

Researchers in the European Journal of Applied Physiology examined how heavy use of the anabolic steroid Deca-Durabolin affected collagen strength in rats. The rats were separated into two groups: natural training and training with heavy anabolic steroid use. The dose the researchers administered to the rats was considered supra-physiological – Deca-Durabolin (nandrolone decanoate) 5mg/kg of bodyweight.

The rats were cleverly forced to perform resistance exercise, but you can’t just tell a rat to start benching – so the researchers attached weights to the rats’ backs. They dropped the rats into a tank of water and the rats immediately jumped out of the water as soon as they were dunked. Every week, the researchers gradually made the weight on the rats’ backs heavier and heavier until at the end of seven weeks the weight was 80 percent of their bodyweight. The researchers dropped the rats in the tank so that they performed this for 4 sets x 10 repetitions of “jumps” with 30-second rest periods. After that, they rats were sacrificed and the rats’ tendons and collagen were examined for gene expression.

There were some very interesting findings after seven weeks of training with anabolic steroids, compared with the natty (natural) group of rats. The natty group did not have any biochemical changes in the rat tendon/collagen properties, while the anabolic steroid group had major changes.(6) The Deca-Durabolin group had reduced biochemical properties of genes involving tendon and collagen strength.

It is interesting to note that AAS administration reduced the accumulation of IGF-1 mRNA levels in some tendon regions, compared to the non-treated, trained group. This decrease of IGF-1 mRNA levels induced by AAS administration may be related to the observed decreases collagen expression when considering the possible connection between IGF-1 and collagen synthesis.(8) The AAS treatment also decreased the MMP-2 mRNA expression (this gene encodes an enzyme for collagen).

The above study is similar to another recently published study, which showed that nandrolone impaired the healing of rotator cuffs of rabbits. In the latter study, male rabbits underwent an incision in the rotator cuff and were divided into groups with anabolic steroids (nandrolone decanoate, 10mg/kg) and natural recovery. Groups that did not receive anabolic steroids showed better healing and more tendon strength compared to groups that received anabolic steroids. Microscopic examination of specimens from the groups with anabolic steroid use showed focal fibroblastic reaction and inflammation, suggesting an impaired healing response.(7)

The key point is that many of these studies were using supraphysiological dosages of steroids that could be like the typical Olympia stack – but the new research suggests that a high-volume approach to training with less weight may be a better approach to use for a bodybuilder than a high-intensity, heavy weight program that puts more stress on the tendons and makes them more susceptible to injury.

By Robbie Durand, M.A., Senior Science Editor of Muscular Development


References:

1. Evans NA, Bowrey DJ, Newman GR (1998) Ultrastructural analysis of ruptured tendon from anabolic steroid users. Injury, 29:769-773.
2: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Paschoal M, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2008) Matrix metallopeptidase 2 activity in tendon regions: effects of mechanical loading exercise associated to anabolic-androgenic steroids, Eur J Appl Physiol, 104:1087-1093.
3: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Wang CC, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Nakagaki WR, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2010). Biomechanical responses of different rat tendons to nandrolone decanoate and load exercise. Scand J Med Sci Sports, 29.
4: Marqueti RC, Parizotto NA, Chriguer RS, Perez SEA, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2006) Androgenic-anabolic steroids associated with mechanical loading inhibit matrix metallopeptidase activity and affect the remodeling of the Achilles tendon in rats. Am J Sport Med, 34:1274-1280.
5: Oikarinen A, Autio P, Vuori J, Va¨a¨na¨nen K, Risteli L, Kiistala U, Risteli J (1992) Systemic glucocorticoid treatment decreases serum concentrations of carboxyterminal propeptide of type I procollagen and aminoterminal propeptide of type III procollagen. Br J Dermatol, 126:172-178.
6: Marqueti RC, Heinemeier KM, Durigan JL, de Andrade Perez SE, Schjerling P, Kjaer M, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS. Erratum to: Gene expression in distinct regions of rat tendons in response to jump training combined with anabolic androgenic steroid administration. Eur J Appl Physiol, 2011 Sep 8.
7: Papaspiliopoulos A, Papaparaskeva K, Papadopoulou E, Feroussis J, Papalois A, Zoubos A. The effect of local use of nandrolone decanoate on rotator cuff repair in rabbits. J Invest Surg, 2010 Aug;23(4):204-7.
8: Heinemeier KM, Olesen JL, Schjerling P, Hassad F, Langberg H, Baldwin KM, Kjaer M (2007b) Short-term strength training and the expression of myostatin and IGF-1 isoforms in rat muscle and tendon: differential effects of specific contraction types. J Appl Physiol, 102:573-581.