Still don't get it

[ZIA1]

Listen, I've read and researched so much information in the past month. I learned a ton that I was utterly unaware of. However, there is still something that I don't understand. Please, reply but I've already been slammed in the butt on this forum. I just want to understand clearly:

Aside from the fact that DECA will shut you down, along w/ the possibilty of deca dick, I don't see what the problem is to use this gear. It seems safe and effective. Add Winny to that and it's a decent cycle to cut and harden up...with the right diet and training. Plus, you get to hold the gains longer than those that test will give you. I know winny Fs up the joints and for some Fs with the hair but added to Deca I've understood that its an effective cycle.

What's wrong with the following:
Week 1-10 DECA @ 400/wk
Week 5-10 Winny @ 350/wk
Nolva from start to finish and a good pct.

[ZIA1]

Also, same scenario as above but substitute the winny (which many people despise) for primo @ 350/wk...

[Maximus G]

I dont like to use Deca without test for a couple of resons first deca dick like you said, it shuts you down bad and i dont get good gains when i use it without test i would much rather use test only then deca and one thing i can recomend is NPP(fast deca) you dont get as bloated so its easier to keep the gains and also it kicks in fast and leaves the body fast Deca on the other hand has to be used for a long time i would say 12weeks at least because its such a long ester it takes about 4weeks for it to kick in and the last shot will remain in your body for 4weeks so you have to wait until you can begin your pct so thats also why NPP is better it kicks in fast in days so you dont have to wait for weeks to build up maximal concentrations and when you take your last shot you can start pct after 3days rather then wait 4 weeks.

[Smak]

Everything is wrong with that cycle you mentioned unless you're waiting until your married to have sex or joining the ministry First you're running a hepatotoxic oral steroid with a very suppressive progesterone. Then using NO TEST? This would shut you down pretty good and make it hard to recover from. Why not throw some test in to prevent this for all the right reasons. Plus deca will work better with Test.

[Ejuicer]

Just about any gear has an enhanced effect with test. It's very synergistic. Winny also doesn't cut fat by the way. And as far as keeping your gains longer you mentioned, deca causes quite a bit of bloat so how do you figure that is true.

[ZIA1]

Ejuicer, I didn't realize the amount of "bloat" that Deca can cause. Strangely, I've read that Deca is low in water retn and test is high. Are you suggesting that substituting the deca with say test prop (12 weeks) and winny (weeks 6-12) is much better?

[shortie]

I think Boardhead's EQ cycle update says it all, he has gotten decent gains(about 5lbs), and moderate strength increases after 8 wks of EQ. Had he stacked test with it he would have put on 10-15 lbs muscle and would have seen quicker results. His cycle is working for him and what he wants, but if you want to see big changes and experience the most growth you can you must add test. Now I am done extolling the virtues of test around here because none of the newbs against it seem to be able to digest the knowledge, so I will leave that to the other guys.

[shortie]

Deca, low water retention, lol.

[ZIA1]

Ok, but does EQ shut you down like Deca? Does EQ cause water retn like Deca can?

[testosterona]

i get so bloated on deca it's crazy. my family didn't even recognize me. i'm on test only right now and it's alot better. no sides at all

[ZIA1]

Listen, the newbs are told over and over to get ALL the facts before even considering sticking oneself. I couldn't agree more. Therefore, not only am I constantly asking questions but I am reading as much as I can. So, when I am surprised to hear from a veteran user that Deca causes heavy bloating you need to understand that some articles I have read have said the opposite. I can't speak for other newbs here but for me, I'd rather ask a billion F'in times b4 I do anything. By the way, moderate gains are what I am looking for...nothing to crazy. I understand that a 1st timer is going to take well to AAS because his receptors are virgins. If that's true, then something like EQ and Winny seems like a good start. Check out this quote about Deca:
"nor does it disturb the body’s own hormone functions excessively...Typically, you can expect a little minor acne, higher blood pressure which causes a longer time period for blood to clot, headaches, and increased libido." HELL it even says blatter irritability is possible but nothing about water retn and the opposite about sexual performance. It says your gonna be hard...forum members say no way. See why I ask over and over?

[SwoleCat]

SEARCH FUNCTION is your friend.

~SC~

[mranak]

Ok, but does EQ shut you down like Deca?

No. Think of eq as a mild form of test.

First cycle? Go with testosterone cypionate or enanthate.

[mranak]

btw: Bloating from testosterone can be controlled with an aromatase inhibitor. But an AI won't do jack for bloat from deca.

The steroid profiles can be very misleading and they often scare guys away from testosterone, which IMHO offers the best ratio of benefit to sides.

[testosterona]

wouldn't you rather take advice from people that have been there done that, then some stupid profile that "sounds" correct? trust me dude, once you try deca alone, you won't do it again. that's for sure. experiment if you want we're just trying to warn you. no BS

[ZIA1]

I hear you...if Deca is that bad then forget about it...I aint doing it. I wouldn't mind looking at Eq though. Is nolva ED necessary with EQ at 400@wk for 12 weeks or just pct?

[Ejuicer]

Listen, the newbs are told over and over to get ALL the facts before even considering sticking oneself. I couldn't agree more. Therefore, not only am I constantly asking questions but I am reading as much as I can. So, when I am surprised to hear from a veteran user that Deca causes heavy bloating you need to understand that some articles I have read have said the opposite. I can't speak for other newbs here but for me, I'd rather ask a billion F'in times b4 I do anything. By the way, moderate gains are what I am looking for...nothing to crazy. I understand that a 1st timer is going to take well to AAS because his receptors are virgins. If that's true, then something like EQ and Winny seems like a good start. Check out this quote about Deca:
"nor does it disturb the body’s own hormone functions excessively...Typically, you can expect a little minor acne, higher blood pressure which causes a longer time period for blood to clot, headaches, and increased libido." HELL it even says blatter irritability is possible but nothing about water retn and the opposite about sexual performance. It says your gonna be hard...forum members say no way. See why I ask over and over?

That's because there are a lot of articles that are out of date. That sounds pretty much like the kind of info that you would read in 96 world anabolic review. At the time it was pretty much considered "the bible" of steroid use, now if anything it's just a representation of how far gear use has progressed. My point being there's so many things out there that a really out of date so remember that when reading all that other crap.

[Ejuicer]

I hear you...if Deca is that bad then forget about it...I aint doing it. I wouldn't mind looking at Eq though. Is nolva ED necessary with EQ at 400@wk for 12 weeks or just pct?

No it wouldnt be necessary to run nolva. If you're thinking about running eq by itself I wouldnt recommend that either. At 400mg per week alone you wont exactly recieve great results. Definitly combine it with test, but doing test alone is still your best bet for a first cycle. With proper ancillaries you'll have virtually no side effects and excellent gains.

[shortie]

I guess my statement was misinterpreted, I didn't mean for you to take and EQ only cycle, if you read it I was pointing out the benefits of test in a cycle-look at it this way, all steroids are synthetic derivatives of test(roughy speaking) but are genrally not normal things found in the body, but Test is Test a natural hormone found in everybody. Now how can this be bad, test is a must for a normal life, and IMO it is a must for every cycle period the end!

[ZIA1]

Shortie, what is the dosage of test prop you recommend for a newb? I will be eating tons of protein but I will be keeping my diet in check. Though winter is coming and people tend to bulk, I'm looking to gain but still stay nice and hard. Thanks for your advice

[mranak]

I hear you...if Deca is that bad then forget about it...I aint doing it. I wouldn't mind looking at Eq though. Is nolva ED necessary with EQ at 400@wk for 12 weeks or just pct?

Nolva isn't even necessary on most <500mg/week testosterone only cycles, although I've noticed that this board tends to advise to use it as a precautionary measure. Which is fine. Personally, I advise against using it until needed. But regardless, never do a cycle without nolvadex on hand.

Especially with just EQ, nolvadex probably isn't necessary, but have it on hand.

As for the deca-only cycle, I'll go ahead give give you the solid truth: it is possible that you could run a deca only cycle and not have deca dick or recovery problems. In fact, 500mg/week deca cycles were once pretty damn common, especially for a first cycle. But we've gathered the experiences of many thousands of cycles and we now know that you are better off basing your cycles off of testosterone and that a first cycle is done with only testosterone. Why risk deca dick, sexual shutdown, depression, difficult recover, etc when you don't have to?

[shortie]

Shortie, what is the dosage of test prop you recommend for a newb? I will be eating tons of protein but I will be keeping my diet in check. Though winter is coming and people tend to bulk, I'm looking to gain but still stay nice and hard. Thanks for your advice

I don't recommend prop for a 1st cycle. I don't like the ED or EOD shots and the potential pain that goes with it. I believe you would be very happy with Test E, bi-weekly injects @ 400mg/wk. You will love it, the shots are relatively painless and spread way out and with good diet you will over a 12 week cycle put on prolly 15-20 lbs with this low dose, and no sides. To rid the bloat take .25 mg L-dex ed and nolva/clomid for PCT-You will love the results, next time you WILL want more trust me!

[mranak]

I agree with shorie. Testosterone enanthate (or cypionate) is an excellent choice for a first cycle and 400mg/week is a great dosage to start with.

[ZIA1]

Can you help me with a pct for Test E @400mg/wk for 12 weeks? No nolva necessary during the cycle?

[mranak]

Can you help me with a pct for Test E @400mg/wk for 12 weeks? No nolva necessary during the cycle?

It might be necessary. HAVE IT ON HAND INCASE IT IS. Never start a cycle until you have everything that you need including PCT drugs.

PCT starts two weeks after your last injection. Pick Nolvadex or Clomid.

PCT with Nolvadex:
Day 1-14: 40mg (60mg if using liquid version)
Day 15-28: 20mg (30mg if using liquid version)

PCT with clomid:
Day 1-11: 100mg (optional: 300mg on day 1)
Day 12-21: 50mg
Day 22-28: 25mg (optional, but better safe than not recovered)

...and you should run PCT longer than the standard length if you feel that you are not yet recovered.

[shortie]

I am becoming more and more to be a fan of Pheedno's PCT layout, it is a 3 piece layout with nolva @20 mg/day, l-dex @.25 mg/day, and clomid @ 100 mg for 30 days. I believe that the Test serum benefits of l-dex are frequently overlooked and think that this protocol outlined by Pheedno really hits all the major points of PCT well.

Agreed with Mranak on the nolva, with ldex ed @ .25mg you will not need nolva most likely, but have it handy. And IMO if you do not feel up to snuff at the end of pct, don't be afraid to extend it 'til you do.

[mranak]

BTW: What are your stats? Age, weight, bf%, height, years lifting, PR for squat, dead and bench, and goals.

[ZIA1]

I'm 30, 200lbs, 5'11, on and off lifting for 5 years, Goals: to "up" everything but not crazy...I'm patient. Also, wanting to lower my 12%BF to at least 9. Also, where the hell can I find more info on l-dex?

[mranak]

I'm 30, 200lbs, 5'11, on and off lifting for 5 years, Goals: to "up" everything but not crazy...I'm patient. Also, wanting to lower my 12%BF to at least 9. Also, where the hell can I find more info on l-dex?

Okay, those are pretty decent stats. Wanted to make sure you weren't some 150 lbs kid.

l-dex is an aromatase inhibitor sold under the brand name "Arimidex." The generic name is Anastrozole. Aromatase inhibitors inhibit aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogens. The thing is, some estrogen is good. Bring your estrogen down too low, and you might damage your lipid profile, have sexual problems, or other.

I consider the Arimidex to be optional until needed, but .25mg is a pretty light dosage that might be alright. Perhaps .25mg EOD would be a good compromise.

[ZIA1]

Well, I've come to grips with the fact that test is the way to go for my 1st cycle. I've been reading so much but clearly I have more research to do. Moreover, having just come to the understanding that test will be my first, I will not jump right into it. I know I'll do it but I'd like to learn more b4 I start sticking myself. I was ready to stick deca but turns out how uninformed I was. Well, back to the books. I look forward to my 1st cycle...just putting it on hold until I learn more. I'll continue training and eating well in the meantime. Thanks for all the advice. By the way, does anyone recommend keeping up with creatine supps in the meantime??