*MASSIVE* Fall-Winter Bulk Cycle (Critique)

[vein-x]

I'll keep the talk short and sweet and get right to the cycle. I'm near the end of my 1st cycle and absolutely love it. I'm already planning my next heavy mass cycle (5k+ calories/day) and enjoying every minute of the planning. Take a look and let me know what you think. Also, if you have any answers to the questions under the cycle don't hesitate to respond.

**CYCLE**
Weeks 1-15: Testosterone Enanthate @ 800mg/week
Weeks 1-14: Deca-Durabolin @ 600mg/week
Weeks 1-5: Dianabol @ 40mg/day
Weeks 1-14: Equipoise @ 400mg/week (low-dose primarily for endurance and hunger, but also for increased appetite)
Weeks 16-17: Testosterone Propionate @ 150mg/EOD (bridge between cycle and PCT)
Weeks 1-17: T3 @ 80-150mcg/day (for synergistic purposes and to maintain/drop the BF% level with 5000+ calories a day)

**PCT**
Weeks 18-21: Nolvadex @ 40mg for the first 2 weeks and 20mg for the second 2 weeks
Weeks 18-21: Clomid @ 100mg for the first 2 weeks and 50mg for the second 2 weeks
Weeks 18-22: Clenbuterol @ anywhere from 50-150mcg/day (to retain all gains)

**ACCESSORIES**
Weeks 1-17: Arimidex @ 1mg/ED
Weeks 1-17: Letrozole @ undetermined amount
Cheque Drops: For times of needed aggression only. Used on EXTREMELY heavy days or fight nights. I plan on making this bottle last me 3+ cycles. Only to be used on very rare occasions.

**POST-CYCLE CUTTING**
Weeks 23-34: DNP @ undetermined amount
-cycled with T3 & Clenbuterol @ 150mcg/80mcg
-cycled with ECA stack


1- How's the cycle look? See any problems, let me know.

2- The EQ dose... is that high enough to induce increased appetite, endurance and vascularity? If not then I might just leave it out all together. I'm already going to be shooting 2+ CC of juice each injection night and if it gets too high I'll only be able to shoot glutes with 3-4CCs. I'm trying to keep it reasonably low enough so that I can shoot quads once in a while to keep a good rotation.

3- About the Deca-Durabolin and 'Deca Dick'. I plan on running Deca @ 600mg/week and Testosterone Enanthate @ 800mg/week. Will the Test offset any negative side-effects Deca might cause to my libido and testes? Let me know if I should lower the Deca or up the Test. I think the Test dose is just fine for a 2nd cycle. My current cycle is 600mg/week, so I don't think I need 1 gram of Test just yet...

4- Although it will be a LONG time before I have to worry about the DNP and post-cycle cutting, what is a solid amount I should buy for roughly a 1-month cutter? How many MG would a solid 1-month cycle of DNP consist of?

5- At this point, should HCG be considered? I realize the Testosterone dose is a little high, but with proper PCT and smart cycling can HCG be avoided? I ask about ignorning it because my source doesn't carry it and not only that I won't have a stable source of refridgeration at the time of ordering this next cycle (I'll be between apartments) Is it a MUST or can I just up the Clomid or use some other method of natural restoration?


Thanks for reading and answering any questions. As I said I'm still in the middle of a cycle as I post this, but at the level of addiction I've reached and my goal (more like dream) of being a professional bodybuilder drive me to assemble a protocol and cash months before the cycle actually begins!

[SpiderRico]

how long till you finish you current cycle because by the time you finish that cycle and take time off it wont be fall/winter ... and what is your cycle history like?

[chest6]

I'll keep the talk short and sweet and get right to the cycle. I'm near the end of my 1st cycle and absolutely love it. I'm already planning my next heavy mass cycle (5k+ calories/day) and enjoying every minute of the planning. Take a look and let me know what you think. Also, if you have any answers to the questions under the cycle don't hesitate to respond.

**CYCLE**
Weeks 1-15: Testosterone Enanthate @ 800mg/week
Weeks 1-14: Deca-Durabolin @ 600mg/week
Weeks 1-5: Dianabol @ 40mg/day
Weeks 1-14: Equipoise @ 400mg/week (low-dose primarily for endurance and hunger, but also for increased appetite)
Weeks 16-17: Testosterone Propionate @ 150mg/EOD (bridge between cycle and PCT)
Weeks 1-17: T3 @ 80-150mcg/day (for synergistic purposes and to maintain/drop the BF% level with 5000+ calories a day) Idea here is to bulk, 150mcg of T3 is counterproductive to your goals..that is a lot of T3. Save it for a cutter

**PCT**
Weeks 18-21: Nolvadex @ 40mg for the first 2 weeks and 20mg for the second 2 weeks If you do nolva&clomid keep the nolva at 20mg throughout PCT
Weeks 18-21: Clomid @ 100mg for the first 2 weeks and 50mg for the second 2 weeks
Weeks 18-22: Clenbuterol @ anywhere from 50-150mcg/day (to retain all gains) I'd max out at 120mcg for a first time

**ACCESSORIES**
Weeks 1-17: Arimidex @ 1mg/ED
Weeks 1-17: Letrozole @ undetermined amount No need for both letro and adex
Cheque Drops: For times of needed aggression only. Used on EXTREMELY heavy days or fight nights. I plan on making this bottle last me 3+ cycles. Only to be used on very rare occasions. takt it easy..its ur second cycle, this is some androgenic stuff

**POST-CYCLE CUTTING** drop all of these, DNP is not to be taken for more than 2-3 weeks, its dangerous stuff
Weeks 23-34: DNP @ undetermined amount
-cycled with T3 & Clenbuterol @ 150mcg/80mcg You need to do some reasding. DNP+clen+clenbuterol is way too excessive and you'd lose a shitload of muscle
-cycled with ECA stack


1- How's the cycle look? See any problems, let me know.

2- The EQ dose... is that high enough to induce increased appetite, endurance and vascularity? If not then I might just leave it out all together. I'm already going to be shooting 2+ CC of juice each injection night and if it gets too high I'll only be able to shoot glutes with 3-4CCs. I'm trying to keep it reasonably low enough so that I can shoot quads once in a while to keep a good rotation.

3- About the Deca-Durabolin and 'Deca Dick'. I plan on running Deca @ 600mg/week and Testosterone Enanthate @ 800mg/week. Will the Test offset any negative side-effects Deca might cause to my libido and testes? Let me know if I should lower the Deca or up the Test. I think the Test dose is just fine for a 2nd cycle. My current cycle is 600mg/week, so I don't think I need 1 gram of Test just yet...

4- Although it will be a LONG time before I have to worry about the DNP and post-cycle cutting, what is a solid amount I should buy for roughly a 1-month cutter? How many MG would a solid 1-month cycle of DNP consist of? U dont wanna mess with this stuff if you dont know what you're doing

5- At this point, should HCG be considered? I realize the Testosterone dose is a little high, but with proper PCT and smart cycling can HCG be avoided? I ask about ignorning it because my source doesn't carry it and not only that I won't have a stable source of refridgeration at the time of ordering this next cycle (I'll be between apartments) Is it a MUST or can I just up the Clomid or use some other method of natural restoration? up the clomid? HCG should be used during cycle or the two week layoff between cycle/pct


Thanks for reading and answering any questions. As I said I'm still in the middle of a cycle as I post this, but at the level of addiction this is pretty clear. You need to calm down and realize that you are still a beginner. Don't jump into things that you are certain of. You are throwing around ideas with some harsh stuff too early in the game and taking it lightly. Read up, and wait to use some of this stuff in the future when you're ready.I've reached and my goal (more like dream) of being a professional bodybuilder drive me to assemble a protocol and cash months before the cycle actually begins!

too much imo for a second cycle. Keep it simple, I think you are gettin a lil too gear happy. Take a look at a few bolded comments above

[dr_skier]

You WILL need HCG.

[IBdmfkr]

No offense but calm down, you aren't even done with your first cycle yet and already planning a huge 5months cycle. See how well you recover off your current cycle, get bloodwork done and then consider what to do next. These dosages and compounds are too much for a second cycle. I have done half a dozen cycle and my dosages have just finally gotten close to what you are planning. Goodluck Vein, I just suggest having BW done and then seeing where you stand.

[Swifto]

You WILL need HCG.

Very true.

All this isnt needed for a second cycle. What did you first consist of?

This cycle needs a little work but its for the more experienced IMHO. And....With one cycle under your belt, your far from experienced.

[DEVLDOG]

too much imo for a second cycle. Keep it simple, I think you are gettin a lil too gear happy. Take a look at a few bolded comments above

i AGREE

DNP FOR 10 WEEKS ??? PRETTY BALLSY IF YOU ASK ME

CHEQUE DROPS?? WHERE DID YOU FIND THIS,i HAVENT SEEN THIS AROUND IN ALMOST 15YRS

[dr_skier]

Another thing is I dont like this "post cycle cutting". Perhaps a low dose dnp run (200/day tops) but not a dnp/t3/clen run, off cycle. Kiss your muscle good bye. Instead why dont you do what i'm going to do/doing. Start your cutting while you're cranking, and finish your cycle with a hard 4 weeks of cutting while only on some sort of TEST dose. This way u let your body get the other AAS out of it's system while remaining anabolic. It's nice to have a few week break from deca before you come off, same with tren and others. For some reason even though your body is shut down regradless, just makes the crash less intense.

[dr_skier]

But yeah, way way way to much for your second cycle. If your heart is set on a long cycle, why not do a Test/EQ (500mg/wk/500mg/wk) stint for 15-16 weeks, jumpstart it with 4 weeks of dbol and end it with 4 weeks of winny. You'd make some solid gains without having to put your body thorugh hell. Use your diet to your advantage and make your first 8 weeks the bulking phase then make the last 8 weeks your cutting phase.

[marcus300]

No offense but calm down, you aren't even done with your first cycle yet and already planning a huge 5months cycle. See how well you recover off your current cycle, get bloodwork done and then consider what to do next. These dosages and compounds are too much for a second cycle. I have done half a dozen cycle and my dosages have just finally gotten close to what you are planning. Goodluck Vein, I just suggest having BW done and then seeing where you stand.

agree wise words, dont run before you can walk

[vein-x]

God, I love it! I can't thank you guys enough for all the advice. Like I said, they're just ideas thrown down for my 2nd cycle seeing as I'm not even done with my first cycle yet! Once again, thank you for all the solid points and tips, but I'd like to 'defend' myself on a few things...

Let me get this out first to get everyone up to speed. Here is my first cycle:
Vein-X's *DETAILED* Cycle Log
(Read the first post for doses and drugs)

Now that you've seen what I'm on, realize this:

-There are only TWO new substances on this cycle: Deca and Dianabol. I've run Testosterone Enanthate, Equipoise and Test Prop all before. Not only that but I'll have dealt with Nolva & Clomid by the end of the cycle.

-This is a mass cycle so I want it to be longer (I like the feeling anyway) Dr. Skier recommended 15 weeks of 500mg of both Enan & EQ. Problem? I'm currently on 600mg of both of those and next cycle will need to up it a bit. Maybe not to 800mg, but the point is: That cycle won't do much for me at all.

-And here's the bottom line... the human eye is fooling with you! I typed the cycle up WAAY too detailed for most people too look at and accept! Here's REALLY all that I'm actually running:

**CYCLE**
Weeks 1-15: Testosterone Enanthate @ 800mg/week
Weeks 1-14: Deca-Durabolin @ 600mg/week
Weeks 1-5: Dianabol @ 40mg/day
Weeks 1-14: Equipoise @ 400mg/week (low-dose primarily for endurance and hunger, but also for increased appetite)
Weeks 1-17: T3 @ 80mcg/day (for synergistic purposes and to maintain/drop the BF% level with 5000+ calories a day)

With a bridge between the cycle and PCT using Prop... that's it!!


I'll drop the 'Post-Cycle Cutting Stack' because not only was it just an idea it's scaring too many people and making me look like I'm foolishly running drugs for fun, which IS NOT the case. It was just an idea. But anyway, take a look at THIS post and the cycle, not my first post and you realize the central idea: There are only 2 new substances! It's not like I plan on running Slin, HGH, IGF-1 & an underground myostatin blocker... it's just a slightly bigger 2nd mass cycle.

I realize the T3 dose may be high, so I lowered it. From there it's just a cycle and PCT, with some Arimidex (took out the Letro) to keep me a little drier... that's all! Nothing major, nothing sick. A slightly larger than average bulker. As I mentioned I plan on taking in 5000-6000 calories and making the money worth my time. Cheque drops (and yeah they're still out there, DevilDog...) might not even be necessary. They're pretty expensive and if I only use them twice a month (at max) like I said that'd only be 10 times throughout my ENTIRE 5-month cycle!

Bottom line: It's just a thought. I don't have the money for it yet, I'm not even done with my first cycle! I just love the planning and the feeling of Testosterone flowing through you.. that superior feeling over everyone you know, and I mean everyone. Again, PLEASE flame/critique/b*tch/insult away because it helps and I take a second look at things I might not have originally thought about. I know this isn't a 100% perfect cycle, which is why I was hoping to get some feedback from some of the more experienced members on here. If you STILL think it's too much, let me know why and I will definetly take your opinion into serious consideration. Thanks again and flame away!

[TRE]

dont run both deca and eq, they both bind to the same receptors and can actually cause both not to work

[vein-x]

dont run both deca and eq, they both bind to the same receptors and can actually cause both not to work

OK, so Deca will give me the same things EQ will?

I'm talking about endurance, hunger and vascularity. Those are the only real reasons I'd run EQ with Deca... for endurance and increased appetite.

Anyone have any experience with this? Pinn maybe?

[omnipotent]

yur not an IFBB pro .. you shouldent do so much for a second cycle .. yur ganna OD pal . besides the deca + eq will have a bad effect .. secondly the cycle is TOO LONG yur ganna have a hard time recovering from it .. and dnp after a huge cycle like that is just retarted no offense .. i think you should
just do a test deca dbol cycle and thats it .. you'll bulk just as good .. then do a cutter after some rest .. cuz this is ganna take a toll on yur body

[SpiderRico]

if you had to go with eithe deca or eq i would say go with the deca only because you said your bulking ..in my opinion i like eq better but you shouldnt run them both at the same time ...and bro just cuz you ran so many mgs your first cycle doesnt mean you have to bump it up every single cycle... by the time your on you 5th cycle you will be running every steroid imaginable at once and all bumped up so high that its unneeded

[vein-x]

yur not an IFBB pro .. you shouldent do so much for a second cycle .. yur ganna OD pal . besides the deca + eq will have a bad effect .. secondly the cycle is TOO LONG yur ganna have a hard time recovering from it .. and dnp after a huge cycle like that is just retarted no offense .. i think you should
just do a test deca dbol cycle and thats it .. you'll bulk just as good .. then do a cutter after some rest .. cuz this is ganna take a toll on yur body

All good, solid points.

My real question now that we've decided it'll be Test Enan|Deca|Dbol is... what doses do you recommend and for how long, if 15 weeks is too long? 12 weeks? That's only 3 weeks shorter and I don't see how that'd make a HUGE difference besides maybe no HCG needed?

[taiboxa]

yes u kan run deca and EQ together for some nice gains but i would say pick one now and run another later or so something krzy and run deca for 12 weeks and run eq and test about 6 weeks past that for a 20 wkr and u get a bulking phase w/ eq hunger and then a cutting phase for 7weeks or so..

[vein-x]

yes u kan run deca and EQ together for some nice gains but i would say pick one now and run another later or so something krzy and run deca for 12 weeks and run eq and test about 6 weeks past that for a 20 wkr and u get a bulking phase w/ eq hunger and then a cutting phase for 7weeks or so..

Well that's ORIGINALLY what I was thinking.. but I'm hearing people tell me 15 weeks is too long! I'd like to run both EQ & Deca for vascularity, increased appetite and endurace from the EQ (and some size) and heavy mass from the Deca.

I've got one person telling me to run them together. I've got one telling me they'll actually CANCEL each other out. Any Mods or Vets care to comment and/or recommend some doses for me?

[taiboxa]

Well that's ORIGINALLY what I was thinking.. but I'm hearing people tell me 15 weeks is too long! I'd like to run both EQ & Deca for vascularity, increased appetite and endurace from the EQ (and some size) and heavy mass from the Deca.

I've got one person telling me to run them together. I've got one telling me they'll actually CANCEL each other out. Any Mods or Vets care to comment and/or recommend some doses for me?

deca = SHUT DOWN HARD + Metabolites hang around for awhile
i feel use that time those metabo's are in ur system to get some gains rather then fighting them during pct

i would run @ LOW DOSES
test wks 1-18
deca wks 1-12
eq wks 1-17
oral of choice first 4-5 weeks

[IBdmfkr]

If you take the proper time off between cycles and get your BW done then there is no reason why 600mg of TestE wouldn't give you sizable gains the 2nd time around. Imagine upping your dosage to 600mg/wk when your body only produces approx. 125mg/wk and then coming off for a good 3-4months and leveling back out at 100-150mg/wk naturally produced. Obviously you will respond well to another 600mg/wk dosage of Test, I ran 500mg three consecutive times with good results the first two times, the third didn't do as much as expected. (it was also QV gear so it's all hit or miss anyhow, not sure if that was the cause?) Anyway, do what you want but I would stick to something like this:

1-4 DBOL 30-40mg/day
1-15 TestE 600mg/wk
1-14 Deca 400mg/wk (new compound you should react well, much better mass builder than Eq like you ran in your first cycle).

This would put you at a gram/wk total for the majority of your cycle which should be more than enough for growth, other than that it comes down to your diet,training,and rest. Those will be the deciding factors.

[Almost There]

Very true.

All this isnt needed for a second cycle. What did you first consist of?

This cycle needs a little work but its for the more experienced IMHO. And....With one cycle under your belt, your far from experienced.

I agree with this, but HCG is not a neccessity IMO. Doesnt help me recover at all. I prefer Nolv/Clomid/Proviron.

[vein-x]

If you take the proper time off between cycles and get your BW done then there is no reason why 600mg of TestE wouldn't give you sizable gains the 2nd time around. Imagine upping your dosage to 600mg/wk when your body only produces approx. 125mg/wk and then coming off for a good 3-4months and leveling back out at 100-150mg/wk naturally produced. Obviously you will respond well to another 600mg/wk dosage of Test, I ran 500mg three consecutive times with good results the first two times, the third didn't do as much as expected. (it was also QV gear so it's all hit or miss anyhow, not sure if that was the cause?) Anyway, do what you want but I would stick to something like this:

1-4 DBOL 30-40mg/day
1-15 TestE 600mg/wk
1-14 Deca 400mg/wk (new compound you should react well, much better mass builder than Eq like you ran in your first cycle).

This would put you at a gram/wk total for the majority of your cycle which should be more than enough for growth, other than that it comes down to your diet,training,and rest. Those will be the deciding factors.

There we go, a suggestion finally.. and a damn good one too. I think I'll stick to that bro. Couple questions:

-Could I up the Enanthate to 700mg+ for my mind's sake? I realize a higher dosage isn't necessary, but would it hurt to go 100mg more than you recommend?

-I've heard that EQ and Deca are similar compounds and (not sure but...) they cancel each other out if run at the same time? I was wondering if it would work out to run 500mg of Deca & EQ at the same time. EQ primarily for endurance and increased appetite.

-Why not the T3 at a low/synergy dose? EVERYTHING I read suggests it helps more than you could imagine so I'm just curious.. why keep it out? Not only does it help transport nutrients but it'll keep my bodyfat somewhat under control compared to normal metabolism w/ 6000 calories a day.


Thanks for all the suggestions and advice so far guys. Keep it comin'!

[IBdmfkr]

I'll throw some quick replies cause my wife is in the other room with some damn sexy lingerie (I'm on the cpu eating a steak sandwich lol)

There we go, a suggestion finally.. and a damn good one too. I think I'll stick to that bro. Couple questions:

-Could I up the Enanthate to 700mg+ for my mind's sake? I realize a higher dosage isn't necessary, but would it hurt to go 100mg more than you recommend? 700mg/wk wouldn't be bad, although you could possibly even grow off of 500mg/wk and then go with 750mg/wk for your third cycle, either way will be fine... Knowing how you think lol just go with 750mg/wk and be done with it.
-I've heard that EQ and Deca are similar compounds and (not sure but...) they cancel each other out if run at the same time? I was wondering if it would work out to run 500mg of Deca & EQ at the same time. EQ primarily for endurance and increased appetite. Similar compounds? I guess, I don't have any personal experience running the two together but am really considering it for my next cycle to see how they go together. I have known a few ppl to run them together and have very good results, but they were also running other compounds so it's hard for me to pinpoint how the two worked together other than my seeing their results. I'd stick with Deca only for your 2nd go so you can see how you react to each individually, on your third cycle combine them so you will have a nice comparison.... THEN report back your results!
-Why not the T3 at a low/synergy dose? EVERYTHING I read suggests it helps more than you could imagine so I'm just curious.. why keep it out? Not only does it help transport nutrients but it'll keep my bodyfat somewhat under control compared to normal metabolism w/ 6000 calories a day.
Unless cutting while on anabolics or running Tren or GH then I'd stay away from T3 especially since you are "Bulking"... Quit being afraid to put on a bit of weight and grow! Take advantage of being in a totally anabolic state and put on some mass, worry about sculpting it when you finish with PCT and are stable again. Possibly put in some cardio on your off days if you are worried about fatgain while bulking, otherwise utilize your OFF days for rest/recovery, that's when you grow.

Thanks for all the suggestions and advice so far guys. Keep it comin'!

That's all I got for you right now Vein, post up your current diet and we can start working on that. Concentrate on the cycle you are on now and quit looking so far ahead, Remember, what you do now affects you in the future.

Off to have some Fun! lol Peace
BD

[Ejuicer]

Too much, too soon. Take the advise from everyone else here and tone it down a notch. Also if you're going to do a big cycle like that regardless, then that's far too much t3 for what you're trying to do

[vein-x]

Thank you VERY much IBDMFKR.. truly detailed and helpful post.

The final issue that keeps getting brought up is the T3. In EVERY profile I read T3 is 'a great cycle accessory' or 'amazing synergistic properties' and I can't help but think.. if I run it at a low enough dose, maybe even less than 50mcg/day to get that synergistic effect what would I lose? I'm truly not afraid to but on fat or weight, that's really not what I'm afraid of. To be honest I've already told myself come shopping time for next winter clothes I'm buying at least 5 or 6 sweaters to cover it all up.

So completely disregard the fat-loss issue and look at the syngery values of T3. Like I said it'll be kept to a low dose like 50 or fewer mcgs/day and I woulnd't even dream of losing fat or weight on my bulk cycle. Again, it's only for the synergistic properties.

[omnipotent]

All good, solid points.

My real question now that we've decided it'll be Test Enan|Deca|Dbol is... what doses do you recommend and for how long, if 15 weeks is too long? 12 weeks? That's only 3 weeks shorter and I don't see how that'd make a HUGE difference besides maybe no HCG needed?

i would go

1-12 test e 700mg/ wk
1-10 deca 600 mg/wek
1-4 d-bol 30 mg/ ed

i juss think shorter cycles of higher doseges give nicer results .

[chest6]

i would go

1-12 test e 700mg/ wk
1-10 deca 600 mg/wek
1-4 d-bol 30 mg/ ed

i juss think shorter cycles of higher doseges give nicer results .

I like this..or 600/500

[omnipotent]

I like this..or 600/500

600/500 isnt bad either .. but if you can afford more juice i would go 700/600

[omnipotent]

MANNNN i cant wait to do my cycle .. i start march 25

im doin test e 700 mg/wk .. dbol 30 mg ed for 4 weeks .. and im probably ganna get eq prolly instead of deca cuz i just want to stay slightly leaner .

[vein-x]

2 things...

-Shorter Cycles: I want to be on damn near from Fall through Winter! I know that may be a little extreme and let me know if I should completely forget that length, but I just like being ON and having the 'God-Like' feeling all the time...

-The Test/Deca Dose: As far as the Testosterone Enanthate | Deca-Durabolin split, why not:

700mg | 500mg


Keep the advise and critiques comin'. I've yet to get a mod or a vet's opinion on this. And that's not to say you all have had nothing to do with it. Heck, take a look at my first cycle protocol and look at the latest one! You've changed it quite a bit...

[IBdmfkr]

I've found Deca is better when run for a bit longer as it has such a long half-life. That's why I suggested that particular cycle length with the given compounds. 600mg/wk is too much IMO for a first run with Deca, see how you react to 3-400mg/wk which is a nice dosage for a first time use. I ran it at 300mg/wk my first two times running Deca w/Test with great results. That dose is unnecessary with your cycle experience.

[Tren Bull]

too much imo for a second cycle. Keep it simple, I think you are gettin a lil too gear happy. Take a look at a few bolded comments above

my thoughts exactly, this is way too much gear for a second cycle