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Thread: If you use HCG whilst "ON", use Nolva also.

  1. #1
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    If you use HCG whilst "ON", use Nolva also.

    Using HCG whilst "ON" can be very effective at reducing/preventing testicular inhibition.

    Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression.

    Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, Herbst KL, Amory JK, Anawalt BD, Sutton PR, Wright WW, Brown TR, Yan X, Zirkin BR, Jarow JP.

    Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle, Washington 98195, USA. [email protected]

    In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either s****e placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.


    When using HCG in conjuction with AS, use Nolva.

    Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14.


    Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

    Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

    Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

    The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

    Credit to "anabolicbruce" who posted the first study.
    Last edited by Swifto; 02-19-2006 at 12:33 PM.

  2. #2
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    Bump

  3. #3
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    Yes, hCG can raise estrogen levels which can lead to a few problems. A SERM or AI is a good way to combat this, along with low dose and intelligent use of hCG.

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    nah thanks mate whilst this is informative i do not take nolva during my cycles with or without hcg.

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    not sayin others should do as i do but i am not gyno prone as of yet,i always have somethin on haaaaaand though!

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    I'm not saying run Nolva to stop the elevated estrogen that HCG may cause. Though, Nolva would come in useful. But, that Nolva use will stop/prevent the supression of Ganadotropins and dessensitization that HCG can have, at dose of 20mg/ED this can be avoided. This would make HCG's use more effective by making it less suppressive.

  7. #7
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    Also, some experts say the desensitizing that 'may' occur with superphysiological doses of hcg actually comes from the direct aromatizing of testosterone WITHIN the leydig cells. Estrogen can be 'toxic' to leydig cells. So with physiological doses (<500iu at a time) and nolva, you can stay on hcg as long as you like. It has actually been proven, within the Age-Managment community, to be therapeudic to aging and age-damaged leydig cells.

    We may be able to expect the same upregulation of leydig cells since we are inducing 'andropause' symptoms with our use of AAS!! I'll be interested in any studies in the near future which can show this!!

  8. #8
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    I just started 500ius e3d of HCG with 1.25mgs armidex daily. I'm a little over 4 weeks into my 750mgs test e + 600mgs EQ/week cycle. I have no bloat and my growth and strength has been good. I'm actually developing stretch marks on my lower, outside bis. I am putting vitamin E an cocoa butter on them.

    I believe in running low dose HCG a month to 6 weeks into a androgenic cycle (to the end) to keep the balls sized and test going. I will do this from now on. I did this with my last cycle with great PCT results.
    Last edited by Seattle Junk; 02-19-2006 at 10:28 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto
    Using HCG whilst "ON" can be very effective at reducing/preventing testicular inhibition.

    Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression.

    Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, Herbst KL, Amory JK, Anawalt BD, Sutton PR, Wright WW, Brown TR, Yan X, Zirkin BR, Jarow JP.

    Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle, Washington 98195, USA. [email protected]

    In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either s****e placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.


    When using HCG in conjuction with AS, use Nolva.

    Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14.


    Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

    Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

    Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

    The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

    Credit to "anabolicbruce" who posted the first study.

    hcg is good, but imo its not necessary as long as you dont run your cycle too long

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tren Bull
    hcg is good, but imo its not necessary as long as you dont run your cycle too long
    Dosage and length of cycle, true. But I think it's better safe than sorry with low dose HCG so you have a effective and short PCT.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Junk
    Dosage and length of cycle, true. But I think it's better safe than sorry with low dose HCG so you have a effective and short PCT.

    thats a good point. clomid is supposed to have all knds of bad side effects. i dont know of any off the top of my head cause i know clomid is essential and im gonna have to take it regardless of what its doing to me, so i never really researched the side effects

  12. #12
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    my dad was saying something about how a pro baseball player got a brain tumor or something from it. although thats probably just speculation. it would be difficult to determine if clomid did it to him or not cause he was running so much more than just clomid

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tren Bull
    my dad was saying something about how a pro baseball player got a brain tumor or something from it. although thats probably just speculation. it would be difficult to determine if clomid did it to him or not cause he was running so much more than just clomid
    Clomid and brain tumors? I haven't heard of that one yet but it doesn't seem likely. Clomid can cause vision problems for sure. I like to take it before bed so I don't feel like a bitch during the day.

  14. #14
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    I think soon clomid may be absolete in standard pct. With all the current research done on nolva and it's effectivness in bringing up LH and re-balancing the HPTA, and on HCG and it's concurrent use with nolva; this may soon be the new pct protocol, at least it should be since it's effectivness has been proven through research!

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