Moderate Dose Short Cyles - Steroids for Health!

[AleX-69]

Hi bros,

i started this thread to clear a few things up.

There are 2 diffrent approaches to the short cycle theory. The one "marcus" describes in his thread ( Short heavy cyles explained- PB theory ) is geared towards the competitve BB who already has several cycles under his belt! This kind of cycling is in no way (!) appropiate - yet even dangerous - for steroid newbies.

On the other hand there are moderate to low dose short cycles which are geared towards steroid newbies (1st time users should still do a traditional beginner cycle as outlined in MudMan's Sticky]) and users who want to minimze side effects of steroid use + keep most of their gains post cycle.

Recently those 2 are beeing mixed up and I fear some potentially dangerous advise is already given to newbies... To prevent those unpleasant occurences in the future I'll post some abstracts by "Realgains" and "Muscletrainee" which outline the moderate dose short cycle approach. I feel that this one is very well suited for steroid newbies even if some might disagree.

Now i will post some abstracts concerning the moderate dose short cycle theory:
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I would like to explain the benefits of short cycles for the recreational lifter, and that includes 95% of us I think. I would also like to clear up a few misconceptions in regard to short cycles in general.

WHAT MAKES A CYCLE SHORT

Short cycles are steroid cycles that do not exceed 4 weeks ,with 2-3 weeks "on" preferred.

WHY DO SHORT CYCLES

The main reason is to limit the negative health impact that steroids DO have on users.
For those of you that don't get lab work done while on steroids I would have you know that steroid use causes a very bad shift in the lipid profile. HDL(good cholesterol) which acts like a sticky sweeping broom to sweep up bad LDL (bad cholesterol) and prevent plaque build up on atery walls, goes EXTREMELY LOW in, dare I say, ALL MEN. Not only this but LDL levels usually climb and this is combo is not good.
Short cycles still cause a crappy lipid shift but not to the same degree as the long cycle. Also less time "On" means less time for potential aterial plaque build up.
After my last long cycle of 8 weeks I had some blood work done and my doc HAD A COW as my hdl to total cholesterol ratio was extremely poor.

There isn't a damn thing you can do to significantly avoid this....you can take niacin , flax oil , do cardio and have a pefect diet low in saturated fat and you will STILL get a very shitty lipid profile.

So a very bad lipid profile with high ldl and rock bottom hdl is a SIGNIFICANT risk factor for aterial plaque build up and heart disease. As a side....anyone that thinks "Arny" only got his aortic valve done doesn't have a clue. I know for a fact that he had a coronary bypass as I have worked with members of the heart team that did his operation.

True there are other risk factors for heart disease but this is a big one and well documented as well.

HEW!!! Next ...short cycles limit other side effects like hair loss, acne, high Blood pressure and resulting kidney stress, testicular shrinkage and poor HPTA rebound.

Also short cycles are a heck of a lot easier on the old liver especially if 17aa orals are used....got to love d-bol he he he !

WHAT SHORT CYCLES ARE NOT

Short cycles will not result in bigger gains. Short cycles will not allow one to be competive in todays national level competitions. Short cycles will not give you 30 pounds of bulk at one time.

WHAT SHORT CYCLES CAN DO

Short cycles can give you decent gains that are FAR better than what you could attain to as a natural. Gains of 10 pounds are not infrequently kept form a short cycle with the novice or those that are not at least very close to their natural maximum weight.

Short cycles will allow a much quicker HPTA recovery than a long cycle and this allows one to kepp a higher percentage of ones gains. In fact full testosterone rebound often happens in but a week. Gains often continue in the weeks after the short cycle is over simply because ones natural test production often jumps a little higher than normal becuase the pituitary really hammers out the LH and the testes have not shunk.
My natural test production is quite good for a man of 40, at 550. I tested my test level a week after I stopped a 14 day cycle and it had rebonded to 650 from the immediate pre cycle 550. On day 15 it was down to 54!

How many of you bro's have experience gains AFTER coming off a 8 weeker...not a one I would say.

Lets face it bro's if you gain 25 -30 pouns of bulk in a long cycle you sure the hell aren't going to be able to hang onto more than 15 of those pounds over the next 6 months unless you were WAY WAY under your potential to begin with.

BEFORE DOING SHORT CYCLES.....

learn how to train and gain WITHOUT steroids. This is critical! IF one knows how to train without gear then adding a small amount of gear over a short period of time can result in great gains.
Trouble is almost nobody knows how to gain without steroids so they do the large doses over long periods of time to compensate for their chronic over training and poor training, sleeping habits.


*Edited*


IN COMES BILL ROBERTS!!!

Now Bill Roberts has been preaching short cycles for some time know, but not as long as Nelson. He says that he was taught his method but a Greek physicain that trains athletes in Europe. It is strange that he never even mentions Nelson and his method and this tells me that he may have stolen the idea from Nelson in the first place.

Anyway Roberts recommends higher doses of strickly short acting injectables and powerful orals. Front loading injectables is recommended.
Roberts is a big believer in Clomid post cycle. He also believes in using HCG if cycles are long or less than 4 weeks are taken between repeated two week cycles ,so as to prevent testicular shrinkage and the resulting poor HPTA recovery.

Roberts believes that after two weeks the pituitary becomes inhibited and not just the testes and hypothalamus and thus he recommends 14 days "on" as the limit IF you are striving for very rapid HPTA recovery.

I have used the "Roberts" cycles with good success as have many others including a few of my close friends but I plan on trying Nelsons method soon.

ROBERTS EXAMPLES


Day one, tren front loaded at 150mg and then tren 75 mg per day through day 12.
Dbol 50 mg per day in divided doses through day 14.
Clomid therapy starting day 15 and for 4 weeks or three weeks if Clomid was used as an anti estrogen during the "on" weeks. He will also use estrogen inhibitors if aromatization is expected to be high.

Second example for the larger man...
Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-150mg per day for 11 days. Tren 150mg per day on day one and then 50-75 per day for 12 days, winstrol 50 mg per day for 14 days.

Other combo's include Tren/winny., test/d-bol winny., Tren/winny /d-bol....etc etc..

Notice that no long acting injectable is used. This is done to allow for a very rapid post cycle elimination of androgens so as to prevent additional lengthening of the cycle. This is Key point in the Roberts two weeker because he believes that any time "on" past two weeks will not allow for the most rapid HPTA recovery. He goes so far as to say that recovery after three week "on" is not especially quicker than recover after 8 weeks "on"

Roberts sites many examples of 7-10 plus pounds kept from his two weekers.

The man that is above his natural max weight (ie: 5'9-10 " and a leanish 190) cannot expect to gains 10 pounds in two weeks but 5 pounds in not uncommon.

So try short cycles if you are really concerned about your health and want to minimize the risks of steroid use, yet still wish to use steroids , and if you want to keep a higher percentage of your gains from a cycle.

[AleX-69]

One more

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As many of you already know I have had decent success with short cycles. I, along with some of my friends and clients, have had good results with cycles as short as 14 days long.

I no longer do cycles longer than 4-6 weeks as I am simply sick of the sides that build up after 4-6 weeks and I no longer feel comfortable walking around with a shitty lipid profile for months on end.


WHAT QUALIFIES AS SHORT

"In my book" any cycle 6 weeks or less is a short cycle. Personally I now think that 4 weekers give the best gains to sides ratio.

You can do 2 weeks "on" 2-4 weeks "off"
You can do 4 weeks on and 4-6 weeks off
Or you can do 6 weeks on with 6-8 weeks off.
4 weeks on and 4 weeks off, year round, gives excellent results and you are only "on" half the year.

WHY DO THEM

#1.
If you are one of those bro's that does longer cycles, of say 10-12 weeks or more, and then wisely takes an equal amount of time off, and you are tired of loosing so much of your gains post cycle due to the length of the time off...the yoyo affect....then why not try doing shorter cycles with their corresponding shorter off times...... obviously you don't gain as much with a short cycle but then again you don't loose as much post cycle either due to the shorter off time.

Now... over say a year of doing 4 on 4-6 off you are gong to get very similar results as that seen from doing longer cycles of say 12 "on" 12-14 off but with less yo-yo affect and less sides. In fact most of my clients that do 4-6 week cycles tell me that they are actually getting better gains over a years use.

#2.
Do them to have less of a negative impact on ones lipid profile and to have less total time per year with a poor lipid profile.

Some of you may not know that androgens, taken at even newbie bodybuilding doses, alter everyones lipid profile. Everyone sees their hdl(good cholesterol) take a huge "nosedive" and most also see their ldl(bad cholesterol) go up to some degree but not to the same degree that hdl decreases. Generally hdl decreases 40-70% in as little as 2 weeks and ldl increases an average of 36% in 4 weeks. In my experience this reduction in hdl puts all bro's hdl WELL below the pathological minimum of 35. My ldl does not elevate above the pathological level of 160 but others see ldl's well above 160.
Lipid levels typically normalize within 3-10 weeks after discontinuation.
( details taken from article in Medscape)

Here are my "numbers" from the last long cycle of test 750mg/week and Tren 75mg/day. A powerful stack but not a huge dose of gear. It's been as bad with less powerful gear and lower doses. Blood work done after week 7.

Total cholesterol 181...not bad.
ldl 160...not very good
hdl 11.6! CRAPPY big time
Cholesterol to hdl ratio 15.7 to 1...ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE! This is when my doc and I had a COW at the same time.
Triglycerides 50...good.

Here is my "baseline" without gear

Chol 152...great
ldl 106...great
hdl 45-48...good
tri 50..good
chol to hdl ratio....3.16 to 1.....good

.As far as I and my endochrinologist are concerned this lipid altering side of gear use is the single worst side of steroid use .
In as little as a week hdl decreases. Personally my brother-in-law and I really see a huge decrease after about 3 weeks "on' cycle. The last time I did a long cycle my total cholesterol to hdl ratio plummeted to 15 to 1!...My doc had a cow and so did I!!

According to current medical thought ones total cholesterol to hdl ratio is the single greatest LIPID indicator for assessing ones chances of developing heart disease. Men with low total cholesterols but with crappy hdl have gone on to develope heart disease WITHOUT ANY OTHER RISK FACTORS such as smoking, or diabetes.

Ideally you want an hdl of at least 40 and a ratio of 3.5 to 1 or better.

My mentor, the late great MIKE MENTZER died of heart disease at age 50 and I know for a fact that ARNOLD had more than valve surgery(I am an operating room nurse as well as a trainer)


#3.
Do them to decrease liver stress.
Generally long cycles with non 17aa roids are not that hard on the liver but sometimes one can get into trouble. The short cycle allows for less total stress on the liver and the frequent "off" times allows the liver to regenerate very well.
Generally a healthy liver can take pretty big "hits" for short periods of time without any problem ...it is long term stress that cause liver damage(as seen with elevated GGT enzyme levels)

#4.
Do them if you want to "tone down" your use of steroids .

#5.
Do them if you do NOT want to use HCG during a cycle to prevent testicular atrophy. HPTA shut down will be complete in as little as a week "on" but testicualr atrophy is minimal due to the short length of this shut down. This then allows for better HPTA recovery post cycle.
It is small testes that makes HPTA recovery slow because GnRH from the hypothalamus and LH from the pituitary normally rebound pretty rapidly.
* There will be some testicular shrinkage in any cycle so if you do 4 "on" 4 "off" for several cycles in a row then it would be a good idea to use hcg at 500iu's every 3rd day while "on" to prevent testicular atrophy...the 4 weeks "off" may not be enough time to allow for complete testicular recovery and over the span of several cycles this may impact your HPTA recovery.

You certainly can use hcg while on any short cycle to prevent any testicular shrinkage if you like but it really isn't necessary.

#6.
Do them if you do not want to see much in the way of water retention and do not want to use an estrogen inhibitor or an ace inhibitor(diuretic)


#7.
Do them if you get high blood pressure and do not wish to use the above mentioned ancillaries.

#8. Do them if you are sick of androgenic sides such as ance, prostate hypertrophy and hair loss(if prone to hair loss) etc etc.
Androgen sides come on for two reason...dose used and especially length of time "on". I do not get acne until after 4 weeks on and then I get hammered.....and I hate it.

#9.
Do them if you are tired of walking around with high estrogen levels for months on end and do not wish to or cannot afford to use an estrogen inhibitor. High estrogen levels are NOT good for the prostate at all!

You certainly can use estrogen inhibitors if you like if you want to keep estrogen levels down and experience very little water retention.


WHY NOT TO DO THEM

Obviously if you compete at a high level then short cycles are probably not the best for you, BUT I think they are the best way to use steroids for the vast majority of bro's.
Top competitors need to be "on" either all the time or most of the time....thats unfortunate but usually necessary in order to get freaky huge which is now needed to win big.


WHAT TO EXPECT

If one is not yet at ones natural maximum level of muscular developement then very good gains can be seen of up to 15 pounds and 10 pounds kept after a 4 weeker...as long as you train correctly as a natural post cycle.

If one is off gear and has dropped to ones natural max then a short cycle can add up to 10 pounds. If you take no more than 6 weeks off after each four weeker you will not loose much...then in each successive cycle you can still gain but the gains will be smaller the further you get from your natural max.

Those that are off cycle and have not yet shrunk down to their natural max can still gain well with successive short cycles but don't expect to win at the national level.

One of the things I like about short cycles is the short time "off" between cycles.......muscular atrophy is minimal during the off time and you are allowing for frequent bodily normalization after minimal time "on". LESS SIDES IN GENERAL, LESS TIME WITH A SHITTY LIPID PROFILE and LESS MUSCLE LOSS POST CYCLE.

NOTE: You cannot get "freaky big" in this way...that takes very big doses and spending most of the year, for years on end, on steroids as well as GH and slin, and that my freinds is simply not a good idea unless you plan to make your living as a bodybuilder.

Getting pretty darn big in small steps is a safer way to use gear IMHO...and it messes less with one head too. Some guys really get depressed during "off" times of 12 or more weeks waiting to start their next cycle.


GEAR CHOICE and RATIONAL

The idea behind short cycles is to "get in" quick, hit the androgen receptors hard, get some gains, and then get the hell out as fast as possible so as to minimize sides. So with this in mind one should only use orals and rapid acting/clearing injectables. The limited time "on' simply doesn't justify the use of the "slower" esterfied injectables like deca etc. Also, these same roids take too long to clear the system and that too goes against the philosophy of short cycles.

The gear choosen should be powerful for best results and doses need to be decent as well in order to get the most from the short time on.
You can use mild gear like anavar but your results will be reduced.

BEST Gear

d-bol
test prop Tren anadrol

BEST stacks.

Personally I think d-bol/tren cannot be beat. There is only one roid that is better than testosterone , in the short run, IMHO and that is d-bol...too bad it's 17aa.

Test prop/tren
Test prop/tren/winny
Test prop/anadrol
Test prop/d-bol


STACKS AND DOSE EXAMPLES

I like Tren and I like d-bol and especially for a shorty. YES NEWBIE you can use these strong androgens and NO Tren is not hard on the kidneys(myth).

Some guys think I am nuts for recommending Tren for a first cycle and they say it is too harsh.... but most of the same bro's will recommend a long cycle of test/d-bol for a newbie and I can assure you that a long cycle of test/d-bol is going to give you more sides than a shorty with Tren and d-bol. Bro's test is just as "harsh" as Tren and it causes a good deal of water retention, with resultant increase in BP(bad in some bro's) unless you use an estrogen inhibitor....and shit test/d-bol stacks are WAY "harsher" than Tren.

The only issue with Tren is the frequent injecting required.....but I know some of you newbies have been researching for a long time and are fine with the idea of frequent injections(they aren't that bad!)


Novice... TREN/D-BOL.... Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks and d-bol 30mg/day in 4 divided doses per day(one right before bed) for 4 weeks.
Two days after last Tren do Clomid at 200-300mg on day one in divided doses and then 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg a day for 3 more weeks. OR...Nolva at 80mg on day one in divided doses followed by 40mg/day for a week and then 20mg/day for 3 more weeks.
Have nolva or Clomid on hand for gyno protection.

More advanced...200 of Tren on day one as a front load to get Tren levels up pronto and then 75mg/day for 4 weeks. D-bol 50mg/day in 4 divided doses for 4 weeks. SERMS as above

Novice...TEST PROP/TREN

Test prop 75mg/day for 4 weeks and Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks. Serms as above. nolva on hand.

more advanced.....Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-200mg/day for 4 weeks. Tren 75mg/day. An estrogen inhibitor might be needed.

MEGA STACK... ADVANCED
Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100mg /day for 4 weeks, d-bol 50mg/day and Tren 75mg/day......LOOK THE HELL OUT! Have the nolva on the tip of your tongue he he he ...arimidex at 1-1.5mg/day would be wise even for the short 4 week period.

SINGLE STEROIDS

D-bol really is an unreal roid and as I said it is even better than test in the short run IMHO.
One can get very nice results from d-bol alone at 50mg/day for 4-6 weeks. Don't take it for longer than 6 weeks though as it is a 17aa roid and as such is somewhat hard on the liver.
D-bol for 6 weeks at a time was a favorite cycle length in the old days and produced excellent gains.

Test prop can be run all by itself at 75-200mg/day with great results too.



OKAY.....BUT YOU SAY YOU ONLY HAVE SUST, EQ, CYP etc

Long chain esterfied roids and tests are not the best choice for the shorty, as explained above, but they can work pretty well IF you do pretty large front loads. FRONT LOADS simply help to get blood hormone levels up more quickly.

ie: Intermediate user doing test cyp ...do a FRONT LOAD of at least 800mg on day one...then 2 days latter do 400mg and then every 4h day do another 400.
400 every 4th day is equal to 700mg per week.

Run the cyp for 4-6 weeks and you'll get some decent gains from it.

* Best to use Tren with this cycle....or d-bol (1 mg of arimidex/day if using d-bol and test)

* After the last shot of cyp you are going to have to wait for a couple weeks for androgen levels to drop before you start PCT and this is akin to lengthening the cycle.



BLOOD LIPIDS

You might want to consider taking the worlds best hdl improver while "on" cycle...NIACIN!
Nothing even comes close to niacins hdl incresing powers. Personally it has not helped my hdl while "on' nor has it helped my brother-in-laws, but you might see some level of improvement(don't expect a great improvement though since androgens do such a great job of messing with hepatic lipaze)

Nicain comes in three forms...regular, extended release(Niaspan) and non flush niacin. Niaspan is the best and works well at 1500mg/day taken once daily. Regular niacin works well at 600-1000mg three times a day but it gives a nasty ichy flush for a while after taking each pill.
Non flush works fairly well at 2-3 grams a day but not as good as the others IMHO.


Use nicain while "off" for sure as it will rapidly improve your shitty hdl level.
NOTE*** niacin can be hard on the liver so never use it with acutane which is hard on the liver. You really should have liver panels done if you use niacin for more than 6 weeks and be followed by a doctor(Swale would be good) especially if you are on steroids as well.

ENTER POLICOSANOL

DrVeejay11(real doctor) introduced me to another great lipid protector/improver and it too raises hdl BUT BONUS...it lowers ldl too.. and it's not liver toxic at all so you could use this stuff all the time with no worries.
Do a search at www.medscape.com for abstracts on POLICOSANOL.


I recommed that all be followed by a doctor while on steroids or at the very least educate yourself about the sides of steroid use and how to avoid the pitfalls by following yourself with blood work at labs that do not require a docs script(especially liver panels... and psa for us older guys) And guys at a minimum also watch your blood pressure while on gear at your local drug store monitoring station....keep the BP under 140 over 90 if you can especailly if you are "on" for months on end.


Best of gains and health to you all.

[AleX-69]

A case study - this has been posted b4 on this board and others also. But it is interesting nevertheless...

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MY COMMENTS

I think that 4 weekers provide the best gains to sides ratio...this has been my personal experience with myself and my clients. Two weekers, properly done, can produce fairly decent gains if doing many in a row, especially 2 "on" 2 "off".

Note...the very good testosterone level that this fellow in the study showed two weeks after ending the two week cycle has a lot to due with the andriol that he was on at this time.....so with this in mind we cannot draw accurate conclusion in regard to HPTA recovery from this study. We can, however, notice "Jim's" really nice gains in weight and strength during this cycle.....and the guy didn't even do any heavy leg work like squats or leg presses!

My clients routinely KEEP 5-10 pounds after a well thought out two weeker, if they are not yet at their natural maximum level of muscular developement. This can take many men, that have trained for a few years, up to a year to accomplish without steroids .
If you are above natural max the gains will be less but you will still gain.

Keep in mind why short cycles of 6 weeks or less are done...they are NOT done to win titles as a bodybuilder at any level ,but rather to provide for a very safe alternative way to use steroids by limiting time "on" and thus by limiting sides.

If you are wanting to try short cycles then keep in mind that they will only help to get you to your natural max sooner than via training naturally....much sooner in fact....BUT they will not get you huge. You can get somewhat above natural max but don't expect to win titles even at the state level using roids in this way.

NOW FOR THE STUDY


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Subject

Jim is 26 years old and has been training regularly since his teens. I consider him to be an intelligent lifter who has generally followed good training plans and has been reasonably consistent in his training, allowing only a few off weeks every now and then. He probably was fairly close to his natural limit when starting this program – I would not have expected him to be able to gain more than perhaps 3 lb over the next year with natural training. He was in his all-time best condition at the time of starting the program, with his bench press, lean body weight, and bodyfat all at best-ever levels. A year previously, he had done an 8 week cycle with only trenbolone acetate and Primobolan , and had since done two light cycles with only Dianabol . His goals were to reduce bodyfat still further while increasing muscle size and muscularity, and to achieve a "Muscle Media" type of look, suitable for the beach or night clubs, not the competitive stage. Furthermore, because of his job, no drastic sustained gains in bodyweight would be acceptable. Rather, weight gains needed to be fairly moderate but with body composition improvements.

Thus, the 2-on, 4-off cycle was particularly suitable for Jim. A traditional 8 week cycle such as he had done before would either have been rather ineffective for muscle gains were he trying also to lose fat during the cycle, or would have resulted in excessive weight gain and failure to lose fat (a primary goal) if he ate enough to obtain good muscle growth. The alternating plan allows him to make good gains for two weeks, though not to a suspicious degree if he takes care to dress in loose clothing, and then to lose fat over the next four weeks, and then to repeat the plan as many times as necessary. Furthermore, it will allow good retention of gains, which is important to him, since he does not plan to use steroids indefinitely.


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Drug Plan

The following is, verbatim, the drug plan that Jim wrote out before the cycle began, using articles previously presented on Meso-Rx as his guide (though these are actually presented for informational purposes, not as advice.) Thus far, he has followed it exactly, except that he failed to use 10 mg Dianabol five times per day, but instead took only 5 mg five times per day. I expect that this change probably cost him a couple of pounds of gains.

A number of abbreviations were used in his plan. "TA" is trenbolone acetate injectable. "D" or "Diana" is Dianabol. "Clo" is Clomid. "Cyt" is Cytadren . "Oxandr" is oxandrolone. The abbreviation "tid" means three times per day.

Program

Throughout the first five weeks: 50 mg/day Clo (two capsules), except Day 1 is 300 mg in six divided doses.

In first two weeks, 200 g/day protein more than usual, but hold fat and carbs moderate enough to avoid significant if any fat gain. In the following four weeks, diet the first three, and diet or use maintenance calories for the fourth, in all cases keeping protein at least 180 g/day.

Day 1: 100 mg (200 IU) TA in morning. 10 mg D five times per day in divided doses, which might include middle of the night if I awake briefly enough to have a pre-made Met-Rx. Cyt: 125 mg (half tab) on arising and 62.5 mg six and then twelve hours later.

Days 3-11: 50 mg (100 IU) TA/day, 250 mg Cyt as above, and 50 mg Diana as above.

Days 12-14: No TA, but otherwise same as days 3-11.

Weeks 3 and 4: Diana 10 mg on arising, and 10 mg four hours later. Cyt ½ tab on arising, and oxandr 20 mg on arising.

Week 5: same, but on basis of blood test, Cyt may be dropped if estradiol levels were below normal.

Week 6: Clean, unless T was not above normal in blood test at end of week 4, in which case Clo use will be continued in week 6.

Supplement use: In weeks 3-6, Androdiol 300 mg one or 1.5 h before workouts – not in the evening. If in the morning or early afternoon, an additional 300 mg after workout would be okay. Ephedrine and caffeine optional while dieting


Bodypart / Parameter Starting During week 3 Improvement
Neck 14 7/8" 15 3/8" 1/2"
Biceps 15 3/8" 16" 5/8"
Chest 40 3/8" 41 ¾" 1 3/8"
Waist 33" 33 ¼" no significant change
Thigh 22 1/8" 23 1/8" 1"
Calves 14 7/8" 15 3/8" ½"
Weight 175 lb 188 lb 13 lb
% Bodyfat 9.5% (n/a) no significant change
Seat Mil Press 165 lb 190 lb 25 lb
Bench Press 260 lb 295 lb 35 lb

The blood test results were good. Jim started with normal values for testosterone, estradiol, all hepatic function tests, and blood lipid profile. Immediately after the two week point, he had a follow-up test. Everything remained normal except for his blood testosterone, which had dropped from 429 ng/dL to 50 ng/dL (normal range is 240-830 ng/dL), and AST, ALT, and CPK values were elevated – however, this was to be expected and is not harmful, except that of course we would not wish the testosterone level to remain so low but to return to normal quickly. The Clomid and reduction of androgen use to a very light level should allow this to occur, and in fact, Jim reports that towards the end of week 3 he felt as if he had plenty of androgen in his system in the evenings and on arising, though that of course is a subjective evaluation. Testosterone levels should prove normal and preferably higher than the starting value in the blood tests to be done after week 4.

Estrogen levels remained normal, but were elevated compared to the starting value: from 24.6 pg/mL to 41 pg/mL (normal range: 0-56 pg/mL). This change is of questionable significance: it might be due to difference in measurement, not to any actual increase, or it might represent a small increase from the usage of Dianabol, despite the use of Cytadren as an antiaromatase.

Cholesterol values did not change substantially, and some parameters were even improved. I attribute this to the use of Clomid, which exerts an estrogenic (not anti-estrogenic) effect with regard to blood cholesterol that is beneficial. (Clomid is anti-estrogenic in some tissues, and estrogenic in others.)

Total cholesterol was reduced from 170 to 162, triglycerides from 128 to 104, and VLDL from 26 to 16. These changes are beneficial though perhaps insignificantly so. HDL also was reduced, from 26 to 24, and LDL was increased from 118 to 126. These changes are not beneficial, though again the measured changes are so small that they may be insignificant. We may conclude that the two week cycle, with use of Clomid, did not result in any significant worsening of blood lipid profile, and may have resulted in improvement of some parameters. This is in contrast to what is seen with traditional cycles where Clomid is not used and blood lipid profiles usually worsen dramatically.


Summary

With two weeks of fairly moderate steroid usage, and one week thus far of light usage which has avoided losses but caused no further gains, Jim has achieved size and strength improvements he is very pleased with. It will take several such cycles, however, for him to meet his ultimate goals. (No one can really expect that just two weeks of use, alone, will effect a complete transformation.) Jim’s results from two weeks of moderate use are probably more than he could have obtained in four years without any drug use, that estimate being made based on his previous experiences.

Blood test results are good, although we need to see if testosterone levels return to normal or above normal during the next two weeks, as expected. It will also be interesting to see if the elevated liver enzyme values (which are harmless and to be expected) will remain the same, or will be reduced as a consequence of using orals only in the morning.

Over the next three weeks, Jim hopes to lose a few pounds of fat while maintaining all or nearly all of his muscle gains. In my opinion, however, if he loses two pounds of bodyweight for each pound of fat lost, that result would be quite typical and would be good, and his gains are sufficient to accommodate that.


UPDATE

Jim has succeeded in retaining his strength gains, and even on improving his bench press, and has lost as little weight from his peak as could be expected (5 lb) considering that he lost ¾ inch from his waist in weeks 3 and 4. Overall he is now 8 lb heavier with a waist that is a half inch smaller, which probably represents a loss of about three pounds of bodyfat. I certainly hope that Jim will get a skinfold measurement at the end of week 6 to further quantitate these results.

He suffered no observed side effects except increased acne and a slight increase in irritability during the two "on" weeks, which might also have been caused by increased stress he was under at the time. Even blood pressure, which often rises during a cycle, remained normal at all times.

Here are the results so far:

Bodypart/Parameter Starting Week 2 Week 4
Weight 175 188 183
Waist 33 33 ¼ 32 ½
Bench Press 260 295 305
Military Press 165 190 190
Testosterone 429 50 529

Furthermore, all of his blood cholesterol parameters were improved from the starting values, though perhaps insignificantly, and all liver values were normal (although CPK was not checked this time). That is despite the use of oral 17-alkylated anabolics: 20 mg/day each of Dianabol and oxandrolone. This I think is attributable to the dosing pattern of use only in the morning, a protocol I learned from a certain Greek physician.

I’d hope that his waist will be down to 32" by the end of week 6, and that the next cycle will see him with a bench of 325 or better and military press of over 200 at the 4 week point. By the end of the six week point of the second cycle, he should have a 31 or 31.5" waist with bodyweight of 183-188. So, Jim, the gauntlet has been laid down: go to it!


Week 6 of Jim’s cycle has ended, but although he is very eager to start another cycle and experience some more gains, he needs to take a week or two off. In an effort to cut up, he foolishly played basketball for a couple of hours per day every day for some time during his off weeks, and injured his knees in the process. Besides this, he also came down with the flu in Week 5, and ran out of Adipokinetix. So he wants to delay his pictures and bodyfat measurement for another week so that he can be more cut, and delay the start of the next cycle until his knees are better. This should take about a week.

Since various readers wrote in and proclaimed his legs to be a Federal "disaster area," Jim does not want to go into the cycle unable to do serious leg workouts. Furthermore he is going to get some more reasonable shorts so we can scrutinize improvements in the legs a little more closely.

On a serious note: actually, this bad-luck experience illustrates an advantage of the 2 on / 4 off cycle. All too often, in traditional cycles, an athlete feels he has too much invested in the cycle and has pinned so much hope on it that he cannot let an injury stop him. All too often, he will decide to "train through the pain," and all too often will wind up with a lifetime nagging injury from this decision. It just isn’t too unusual for things to happen in life that mess up our plans. Since one only gains two weeks at a time in this system, it’s much more forgiving of problems such as this. A setback doesn’t "ruin everything" but only introduces a brief delay.

Next cycle, training will be similar to the first, except that weights will be about 10% heavier and shrugs will be added to the program. The drug program will be somewhat different also. Jim is thinking either of contributing to scientific knowledge by continuing to use 50 mg/day trenbolone acetate but substituting 100 mg/day testosterone propionate for the 50 mg/day Dianabol so that a direct comparison may be made; or he may just go for the gains, saying the heck with science, and keep the Dianabol in there while adding the testosterone propionate .

We also will probably have salivary tests tracking the recovery of testosterone production, to see if it is largely back at the end of week 3 and to see if it is even higher in week 5 than in week 4. These things were not tested last time.

[DEVLDOG]

you lost me 1/2 way through the 2nd post..just too long and boreing...

short cycles...3-4 weeks wont do anything but shut you down IMO.

[AleX-69]

to each his own

[usamm]

I don't like 3-4 week cycles, but some do like them and get decent gains.

[IBdmfkr]

That is tons of info into one post and might be overwhelming for a newbie. I'm sure most if not all have skimmed through without reading but rather looking for dosage information. Newbies need to stick with the basics IMO, Lower dosages of test for a moderate amount of time. By doing this they will get the feel of how they react and get more comfortable with gaining/losing muscle until they learn how their bodies react to correct drug use/training/dieting. JMO

[helium3]

i wanted to do a short cycle from the word go,but i was advised to do the usual 500 a week test for 8-10(good advice).one of the most posted statements on here is that for the average it takes between 4-7 weeks before they see gains and gains made before that time are just water,so are you saying that if you front load and get your test levels high enough and stable enough you could see some moderate gains in as little as 3-4 weeks

[AleX-69]

That is tons of info into one post and might be overwhelming for a newbie. I'm sure most if not all have skimmed through without reading but rather looking for dosage information. Newbies need to stick with the basics IMO, Lower dosages of test for a moderate amount of time. By doing this they will get the feel of how they react and get more comfortable with gaining/losing muscle until they learn how their bodies react to correct drug use/training/dieting. JMO

Well IF someone plans to do a cycle in general - or a short cycle in particular - I think he should read up on those topics as much as possible.
A half hour of reading is nothing compared to 3 weeks on cycle at minimum.
I'd rather invest a little time b4 starting a cycle than fvck up my health making uneducated decisions.

I tried to provide a lot information on short cycles so that everbody can decide for himself if this approach is suited for him.

Sure you are right, that some newbies will not read the whole articles and will simply look for dosages, but those who do are immature fools IMHO. They are the ones running D-bol only for 6wks with no PCT etc..
So basicly if someone does not want to invest a little time to make an educated decision on his upcoming cycle - i couldn't care less.

[AleX-69]

i wanted to do a short cycle from the word go,but i was advised to do the usual 500 a week test for 8-10(good advice).one of the most posted statements on here is that for the average it takes between 4-7 weeks before they see gains and gains made before that time are just water,so are you saying that if you front load and get your test levels high enough and stable enough you could see some moderate gains in as little as 3-4 weeks

either by frontloading or by using fast acting compounds, yes.

[helium3]

i read the realgains post a while ago and liked it,i then read what bill roberts had to say it sparked my interest especially because of the short shutdown of the hpta,i still havent got my gear yet so im going to give it some more thought before i decide what to do.this will be my first cycle after doing months of reading,great post dude and any more additional info would be welcome,as im not against reading anyone who cant be bothered to do some searching/reading before pumping there body full of sxxt is imo a moron!

[Sharky72]

Definately worth thinking about.. I myself am sick of the sides i get after 4 weeks of cycling, and even more tired of the crash during and after PCT. Whats it gonna hurt to try a new approach, if you are not enjoying the long cycles anymore? Thanks Alex

[brutesinme]

Alex, thanks for the info on short cycles bro, keep it coming.

[IBdmfkr]

Well IF someone plans to do a cycle in general - or a short cycle in particular - I think he should read up on those topics as much as possible.
A half hour of reading is nothing compared to 3 weeks on cycle at minimum.
I'd rather invest a little time b4 starting a cycle than fvck up my health making uneducated decisions.

I tried to provide a lot information on short cycles so that everbody can decide for himself if this approach is suited for him.

Sure you are right, that some newbies will not read the whole articles and will simply look for dosages, but those who do are immature fools IMHO. They are the ones running D-bol only for 6wks with no PCT etc..
So basicly if someone does not want to invest a little time to make an educated decision on his upcoming cycle - i couldn't care less.

Just an observation. Interesting info though.

[vitor]

I liked the case study by "Bill Roberts" on "Jim".

2 on/4 off, sounds like something I want to try.

[vitor]

I liked the case study by "Bill Roberts" on "Jim".

2 on/4 off, sounds like something I want to try.

[fitguy]

what is a good sample cycle using test enath,,sustanon and dbol ??

[sp9]

I still side with all the experiences posted here, the recomended first cycles that are 10-12 weeks of test. Short cycles are more for advanced bodybuilders. I don't believe there is a short/light cycle for non-advanced people (6 weeks) to use. I think the knowledge gathered here for years supports the 10-12 week range as most effective (longer sometimes for things like EQ), low dose or moderate dose.

Until the vets and mods I respect start saying their is a short (6 week) cycle that is effective for newer, or moderatley experienced people, I will stick with the proven methods. The vast majority of expiriments people post here, and vets/mods posts, does not support a short 6 week cycle theory for people with little or moderate steroid experience.

Everyone is looking for the magic bullet that does not exist.

Marcus' post about the short heavy cycles is only for the most advanced, competitive bodybuilders that have the time to dedicate themselves, and are looking for a competitive advantage, not for the guy in the gym who just wants to look good, in my opinion.

[Sharky72]

I'm more interested in avoiding the dreaded sides from test after 4-5 weeks of use.. Which is why i'm interested in this theory. My question is that if your test levels are unstable that often ( 4 wks on 4wks off all year) couldnt that cause some serious sides also?

[sp9]

I'm more interested in avoiding the dreaded sides from test after 4-5 weeks of use.. Which is why i'm interested in this theory. My question is that if your test levels are unstable that often ( 4 wks on 4wks off all year) couldnt that cause some serious sides also?

For an answer look at the one person's comment so far on this thread that has the title of VET. People have that title for good reason.

What are the dreaded sides that you talk about ( I use nolva to prevent gyno, I use things to stop hair loss, and I let the positive benefits of higher than normal test happen. Not just the muscle building, there are many other good effects like mood, sex drive, etc that can be used to your benefit if you manage your cycle properly). If you use test, say a short acting ester like prop, or no ester like test supspension, you will have just completely shut down your natural test, then you will be trying to bring it back through PCT, then shutting it down again. (I am using your example of 4-5 weeks or even the time frame mentioned here of 6 weeks.)

You are putting synthetic test in your body to get over the normal amount to produce greater than normal muscle gains. shutting off your natural test fully in a few weeks, then going through PCT, just to then go back on and shut off your natural test again is spinning your wheels in my opinion.

** this thread does not equate to marcus' thread. Marcus's thread for short cycles uses massive doses (that he won't even discuss because he is afraid of new people trying them) and the entire proceedure should not be attempted by anyone that is not only experienced, but is also a competitive body builder. In addition, Marcus talks about coming off those massive dose short cycles and still using a maintenance dose to cruise which is another advanced technique that should not be taken lightly **

The original poster prefers tren and dbol as a stack. Then talks about equating test sides long term (whatever that is) to tren/dbol short term and picks tren/dbol as the winner. I just don't agree, but don't take my word for it, email/pm some vets or mods. Tren is a great and powerful steroid , it also has the propensity and the real world data to show it causes just about the worst sides of any injectable on a per mg basis. New people should not be using it. If it were a recreational drug, it would be like comparing cocaine as test, and crystal meth (ice) as tren. Both are bad, one is much more powerful than the other. THis is why people with more than a couple of cycles then expirement with tren A to see how they react.

[AleX-69]

You are putting synthetic test in your body to get over the normal amount to produce greater than normal muscle gains. shutting off your natural test fully in a few weeks, then going through PCT, just to then go back on and shut off your natural test again is spinning your wheels in my opinion.

______________________

Investig Med 1997 Oct;45(8):441-7

Testosterone suppression of the HPT axis.

MacIndoe JH, Perry PJ, Yates WR, Holman TL, Ellingrod VL, Scott SD.

Department of Psychiatry, College of Medicine, University of Iowa, Iowa City, USA.

BACKGROUND: Although studies have demonstrated the suppression of normal gonadal function in the experimental setting, the specific mechanisms by which androgenic -anabolic steroids impact male gonadal function remain ill defined. Following 2 consecutive weekly injections of an identically appearing testosterone cypionate (TC) placebo, subjects were randomized to a TC dose of 100 mg/wk, 250 mg/wk, or 500 mg/wk. Following the last weekly injection of active agent the subjects received 12 consecutive weeks of TC placebo injections. RESULTS: Spermatogenesis was impaired by each of the doses of TC employed in this study, but the observed decreases in, sperm count were neither strictly dose dependent nor consistent between individuals treated with the same dose. Basal leuteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) became undetectable 2 weeks after the start of 250 and 500 mg/wk TC injections and were lost within 5 to 6 weeks of starting 100 mg doses. Pituitary gonadotropin responses to leutinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) disappeared more slowly with FSH responses being lost 1 to 3 weeks after the loss of basal FSH activity. Leuteinizing hormone responses to LHRH appeared to be suppressed last, disappearing 4 to 6 weeks after FSH responses to LHRH. CONCLUSIONS: Exogenous testosterone-mediated inhibitory influences on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis were reversed following the cessation of drug treatment.

_________________


So the hypothalamus is completely inhibited by two weeks and thus the pituitary doesn't put out LH and the testes don't then produce testosterone BUT the pituitary itself takes a longer time to become unresponsive to potential LHRH stimulation from the hypthalamus.
So after a cycle of 4 weeks or less the pituitary is still sensitive to LHRH release from the hypothalamus...
So when it senses LHRH from the hypothalamus it will respond fairly well and let the LH fly!

Now if the nuts have not shrunk much , and they won't in 4 weeks, then they will be able to respond well to LH.


Quote from Realgains
____________________________
I know from personal experience that the pituitary reponds VERY RAPIDLY with secreation of LH after a 14 day cycle, and test rebound is very fast and actually over compensates a bit.
__________________________________

In short:

Being shut down for a short period of time in no problem and you will recover rapidly....its long cycles that can cause recovery problems due to testicular shrinkage...unless you use hcg....but then there is still hypothalmic and pituitary inhibition after a long cycle.

The main aim of moderate short cycles is not to put on as much muscle as possible in a short period of time but to grow steady and in a more healthy way than on traditional long cycles.

There are other benefits of short cycles as well..-->just think of the blood lipid profile (This is beeing discussed in marcus thread on page 4)

Moreover even Marcus has tried moderate dose short cycles a while ago as he stated in his thread and liked them a lot (maybe that will convince you a little more )

regards

[IBdmfkr]

There is also no proof that staying on for prolong periods of time will make recovery impossible either. Although I don't suggest trying it unless you're willing to resort to HRT.

[AleX-69]

I'm more interested in avoiding the dreaded sides from test after 4-5 weeks of use.. Which is why i'm interested in this theory. My question is that if your test levels are unstable that often ( 4 wks on 4wks off all year) couldnt that cause some serious sides also?

Personally I would not advocate 4wks on / 4wks off all year. I would prefer an off time ranging from 6-8 weeks due to the recovery of the blood lipid profile, etc..

Moreover if you haven't recoverd completly (for whatever reason) after your 4 weeks off period your bodys test production will be inhibited to a much higher degree during your next on period which will carry on in your next off period... and so on..
I'll always opt for the safer route to go, so maybe I am a bit to conservative here, but well that's just me

[AleX-69]

There is also no proof that staying on for prolong periods of time will make recovery impossible either. Although I don't suggest trying it unless you're willing to resort to HRT.

it is more about how difficult it is to recover, not if it is impossible.
Realgains has seen his own test production actually overcompensate a bit after a short cycle.. I bet you don't see that after a 12 weeker..

[vitor]

So "Bill Roberts" claim that 2 weeks on, will allow for rapid recovery. While 3 weeks on will not allow for much better recovery than 8 weeks on? (Because its only after 3-weeks that the pituitary, testes and hyphotalmus becomes "really" inhibited.)

Another positive thing about this theory would be that you can probaly avoid sideeffects with "hars" androgens such as trenebolone, when it comes to acne and such. 2 weeks on is not enough time to notice much sides IMO.

[AleX-69]

So "Bill Roberts" claim that 2 weeks on, will allow for rapid recovery. While 3 weeks on will not allow for much better recovery than 8 weeks on? (Because its only after 3-weeks that the pituitary, testes and hyphotalmus becomes "really" inhibited.)

Another positive thing about this theory would be that you can probaly avoid sideeffects with "hars" androgens such as trenebolone, when it comes to acne and such. 2 weeks on is not enough time to notice much sides IMO.

Well recovery after 4 weeks is fairly easy, too. LEt me tell you that from first hand expierience + i feel 2 weeks on is simply to short and i have never done a cycle shorter than 28days. So if someone has done a 14 days cycle i would be glad to hear your expieriences..

[vitor]

Well recovery after 4 weeks is fairly easy, too. LEt me tell you that from first hand expierience + i feel 2 weeks on is simply to short and i have never done a cycle shorter than 28days. So if someone has done a 14 days cycle i would be glad to hear your expieriences..

Havent tried the 2on/4off yet, but probaly will soon. I will let you know how it goes.

If someone decide to go over two week I guess 4 weeks would be ideal. I see no benefit for doing 3-weeks on, if that recovery wont be any faster than the 4-week on.

[AleX-69]

what is a good sample cycle using test enath,,sustanon and dbol??

read up on roids more b4 asking dumb questions.. sry bout that but i don't know why you would want to incorporate both sutst + test en in one cycle...

[AleX-69]

An abstract posted by "blade" on an**xtreme regarding 14day cycles and what to expect.

_________________

I wrote extensively on 2 week cycles on the old forum, and can recommend them with no hesitation. I prefer Testosterone Propionate , Trenbolone Acetate, Winstrol , and occasionally Dbol . Anadrol only if Test or aromatizable AAS are restricted due to toxity issues. I consider Halo worthless, and Anavar is usually too expensive compared to effectiveness.

Propionate must be ended at day 10 to ensure that it clears the system by day14. Tren can be run up until day 13 or 14, and should be injected ED due to its half-life (definite difference ED vs EOD).

I also prefer to keep estrogen levels normal, rather than "eliminating" it totally. Estrogen has its place and a function in the endocrine system, and no estrogen can lead to negative effects - e.g. reduced GH and IGF-1 levels.

The androgenic /anabolic classification is invalid, as all steroid are both anabolic and androgenic to varied degrees. AAS should be rated after how potent they are at binding the Androgen Receptor - which in turn increases mRNA and ribosome activity, and finally protein synthesis. So we get an anabolic response from an androgenic effect, right? Then consider the effects on GH and IGF-1 (where Test and aromatizable androgens are unsurpassed). The next classification is how effective a particular AAS is via other non-genomic, non-AR mechanisms, e.g. Winstrol and the Glucocorticoid Receptor, or Dianabol and dopamine stimulation (various positive benefits). Lastly, one considers side-effects, related to aromatization and 5-alpha-reductase - i.e. water-retention, high blood pressure, hair loss, acne etc...

I recommend using Test in ANY cycle, due to its effect on satellite cell proliferation and differentiation - which is extremely important for optimal hypertrophy. It also elevates GH and IGF-1 levels, moreso than any other AAS. Trenbolone is 3x as potent at binding the Androgen Receptor (which leads to anabolism - i.e. increased protein synthesis...so is it androgenic or anabolic?) and it also sensitizes the muscles and satellite cells to IGF-1, a fact that makes the Test/Tren stack unbeatable from a synergistic viewpoint.

Gains of 5lbs are common, 10lbs not unusual, and 15lbs in users far below their genetic potential. One can not expect one short cycle to do much, but a string of 2on/2off (or 4off) with proper auxillary drugs for HPTA recovery will give long-lasting retained gains.

_____________________

[AleX-69]

MT on the pros of short cycling
____________________

There are several goals to a successful cycle program, as I like to see it:
First, no bloat. The BBer sees real gains, and he knows those are the gains he will come off the cycle with. That new size is muscle, and not water. And lack of bloat will result in lower blood pressure, no electrolyte imbalance, and less stress to the kidneys.

Next, gains come on slowly, and not massively. This business of the massive, high speed gains, from the typical bulk cycle, is what is so taxing on the system, and leads to health issues, down the road. It's just not healthy.

Little or no bodyfat increase. And, frequently, a body recomposition, where the lbm increases, simultaneously with bf reduction. This is the result of proper diet planning, and use of powerful androgens in the cycle design.

And, the results are very enjoyable to watch happen. If it all works out right, you see those gains, and know you don't have to face a miserable cut, to dispose of the bodyfat you packed on. And the next
___________________

[AleX-69]

MT on AAS dosages in general. Good post!

___________________

Under no conditions would I ever recommend the increase of AAS dosages from cycle to cycle. This is yet another mistake of BBers. There is this belief that the more muscle you produce, the more AAS is needed to grow it. It may look good on paper, but all it results in is BBers abusing their bodies. My business partner and I have had clients on the same dosage of AAS, over years, and seen them go from bodyweights of 190 to 240, and NEVER increase their AAS dosages. They respond exactly as well to the same dosages, today, as they did, early on. If you cycle too often, with no sufficient time to recover and normalize, or you keep increasing the dosages, or you cycle with abusive dosages, or if you carry excess bodyfat, then you create a treadmill which is difficult to get off of. Remember, the more bodyfat you carry, the more insensitive to AAS you are. Better to just be smart, and take proper care of your body, and don't be a fool, by listening to the beliefs of extremists. Start out with sane dosages of AAS, and stay that way.
____________________

[marcus300]

As this thread is concerning short cycles for the newbie, i would like to give some experience and research ive done regarding this issue. for someone who hasnt used gear before id would say they are better of staying with the standard type of cycling normaly just test only for the standard amount of weeks, this will give them a good base to work from and find out how they respond to AAS.

Now has the user gets more cycles under his belts and try's different compounds, i am sure he should at least try a short cycle to see how he reacts to one, ive seen really good gains from such cycles me included, i feel he should try all types of cycling because we are all different and respond differently, i personaly prefer short cycles because i recover far better than the long type of cycles, i have expierenced some bad sides and mental ones coming of long cycles, and let me tell you its not nice, hormones play a big role in our bodys and i feel the less time your on AAS the better for recovery. this also doesnt mean less gains if you know how to prime correctly you can still gain as much as long cycles but without the sides.

If the newbie type of user is going to use the short cycle he should use the faster acting compounds which will benefit this way of cycling, i am very intrested in the 2on 4 off cycling which i will be trying , this intrest's me alot and i wonder if the same gains can be obtained? i would like to hear from anybody who has cycled that way.

marcus

[sp9]

So the hypothalamus is completely inhibited by two weeks and thus the pituitary doesn't put out LH and the testes don't then produce testosterone BUT the pituitary itself takes a longer time to become unresponsive to potential LHRH stimulation from the hypthalamus.
So after a cycle of 4 weeks or less the pituitary is still sensitive to LHRH release from the hypothalamus...
So when it senses LHRH from the hypothalamus it will respond fairly well and let the LH fly!

Now if the nuts have not shrunk much , and they won't in 4 weeks, then they will be able to respond well to LH.


Quote from Realgains
____________________________
I know from personal experience that the pituitary reponds VERY RAPIDLY with secreation of LH after a 14 day cycle, and test rebound is very fast and actually over compensates a bit.
__________________________________

In short:

Being shut down for a short period of time in no problem and you will recover rapidly....its long cycles that can cause recovery problems due to testicular shrinkage...unless you use hcg....but then there is still hypothalmic and pituitary inhibition after a long cycle.

The main aim of moderate short cycles is not to put on as much muscle as possible in a short period of time but to grow steady and in a more healthy way than on traditional long cycles.

There are other benefits of short cycles as well..-->just think of the blood lipid profile (This is beeing discussed in marcus thread on page 4)

Moreover even Marcus has tried moderate dose short cycles a while ago as he stated in his thread and liked them a lot (maybe that will convince you a little more )

regards

I understand the logic you are trying to apply here. I do not agree, but to each their own. Most of us come here in an attempt to manage the risk that we are doing to our bodies by looking at studies as well as real life data that people share here.

I would say this, just like for diet, disease, or medications, for every study you use to prove a theory, there are others that seem to go against those results. Many people find a common thread in studies and it seems to work on their bodies. Good for them. For me, I have done 10-16 week cycles and have had no problem recovering based on blood tests fairly quickly. I have also retained a good percentage of gains for a long time. I am no spring chicken (in my mid-thirties) and I have figured out what works for me and it seems to be what the large majority of people have also found works for them.

These are all experiments on ourselves, and by all means if you are not satisfied with the results you are getting, and trying this theory gives you some hope then do what you want and best of luck to you.

[sp9]

As this thread is concerning short cycles for the newbie, i would like to give some experience and research ive done regarding this issue. for someone who hasnt used gear before id would say they are better of staying with the standard type of cycling normaly just test only for the standard amount of weeks, this will give them a good base to work from and find out how they respond to AAS.

marcus

Great reminder marcus. Newer people trying strategies like this is what is concerning to me. The first few cycles are all about measuring how your body responds to certain drugs, figuring out what side effects you are prone to, how fast your body recovers, before moving on to more advanced strategies.

Macus' comments there are not in agreement with these statments in the original post:

To prevent those unpleasant occurences in the future I'll post some abstracts by "Realgains" and "Muscletrainee" which outline the moderate dose short cycle approach. I feel that this one is very well suited for steroid newbies even if some might disagree.

That is my concern (Alex), do you really beileive people who are trying this (steroids ) for the first time or first few times, should attempt this strategy? Most people start with one drug...test, the add one at a time each cycle to learn how they react to the new drug.

Maybe after they have done a few cycles, have real data from tests on their own bodies about how they react to a list of drugs, then they could try something like this?

[AleX-69]

That is my concern (Alex), do you really beileive people who are trying this for the first time or first few times, should attempt this strategy? Most people start with one drug...test, the add one at a time each cycle to learn how they react to the new drug.

Maybe after they have done a few cycles, have real data from tests on their own bodies about how they react to a list of drugs, then they could try something like this?

Well you and marcus got a point there. mY first cycle was low dose test / deca for 10 weeks and i didn't regret doing it.
So basicly I think you both are right advising a standard low dose 10-12 weeker for the 1st time user to "ease" him into more advanced aas use.
Short cycles are rather complex and everything has to be in check (diet, trainig..) to take the full effect.. That might be another reason why newbies are better of doing a traditional cycle as their 1st cycle. (also edited my initial post that way)
Thx for the input bros. Always appreciated!

[sp9]

Well you and marcus got a point there. mY first cycle was low dose test / deca for 10 weeks and i didn't regret doing it.
So basicly I think you both are right advising a standard low dose 10-12 weeker for the 1st time user to "ease" him into more advanced aas use.
Short cycles are rather complex and everything has to be in check (diet, trainig..) to take the full effect.. That might be another reason why newbies are better of doing a traditional cycle as their 1st cycle. (also edited my initial post that way)
Thx for the input bros. Always appreciated!

Thanks for those comments, much appreciated.

There are also other people who have done a few cycles, I feel should stick to more basic cycles. An, example:

The average person, who has to work a 50-60 hours week, or in addition, may be going to college part time at night, has a wife, maybe a child, stresses just to fit in their workouts.

Someone like that is not going to have the focus or drive to manage the dedication needed for a more advanced strategy. While many people on this board are body builders, or striving to become them, I would say that most people here are either 1)people who feel they have reached their natural peak and want to see if they can go further (no body building aspirations), or 2) Someone who has not reached their natural peak and is looking for a short cut. (We see these type of people post threads all day long, when they have not created a good diet, or workout plan and are frustrated).

SP9 - out.

[marcus300]

Normaly the first time user experiences good quality gains all the way through a standard cycle, so long as his diet and training are in order, this is due to him never having gear before in his system so he responds in a big way, as the user gets more cycles under his belt he finds out that he is not gaining like he use to, this is due to him getting use to the state his body his in durring a cycle, this is the time to try other things, i feel to many BB's just up the amount of gear and weeks to try and get the same benefit as he use to, the end result is more sides and harder recovery.

So many BB's report that their gains really slow after week 6, so i feel these BB's should try this appoach and see how they gain and respond,

I must stress that any cycle especailly short cycles the priming of the body is one of the most advantages he can do, if this is done correctly the gains are amazing in such a short time and this is due to the diet and training beforehand.

[AleX-69]

I understand the logic you are trying to apply here. I do not agree, but to each their own. Most of us come here in an attempt to manage the risk that we are doing to our bodies by looking at studies as well as real life data that people share here.

I would say this, just like for diet, disease, or medications, for every study you use to prove a theory, there are others that seem to go against those results. Many people find a common thread in studies and it seems to work on their bodies. Good for them. For me, I have done 10-16 week cycles and have had no problem recovering based on blood tests fairly quickly. I have also retained a good percentage of gains for a long time. I am no spring chicken (in my mid-thirties) and I have figured out what works for me and it seems to be what the large majority of people have also found works for them.

These are all experiments on ourselves, and by all means if you are not satisfied with the results you are getting, and trying this theory gives you some hope then do what you want and best of luck to you.

Had to come back to that post once more.

It is unquestioned that longer cycles do work! Period!

But actually the main purpose of low/moderate dose short cycles is to cycle more healthy with less adverse health effects (especially long-term) than on traditional cycles.

HAving a shitty lipid profile for extended periods of time can't be healthy at all and you don't know what damage you've already done to your body (i.e. ateriosclerosis...).

Just wanted to point that out..

[AleX-69]

I must stress that any cycle especailly short cycles the priming of the body is one of the most advantages he can do, if this is done correctly the gains are amazing in such a short time and this is due to the diet and training beforehand.

/singed

[marcus300]

Had to come back to that post once more.

It is unquestioned that longer cycles do work! Period!

But actually the main purpose of low/moderate dose short cycles is to cycle more healthy with less adverse health effects (especially long-term) than on traditional cycles.

HAving a shitty lipid profile for extended periods of time can't be healthy at all and you don't know what damage you've already done to your body (i.e. ateriosclerosis...).

Just wanted to point that out..

agreed