Ephedrine=amphetamine=pro-psychotics!!??

**Power Viking** · 02-27-2006, 03:02 PM

I post this here as most of you users have "done it all" and have extensive knowledge on AAS and other chemicals.

I was doing some heavy box squats today, so heavy that it would make most of you up your doses in sheer envy, in fact.

. As I finished I talked to a guy who works as a nurse.

I mentioned that ephedrine was legal outside of competition and that I was therefor thinking about using some to help me with weight loss.
He then gave me some shocking facts.

#1: The only molycule which separates ephedrine from amphetamine doesn`t change much. For all practical puroposes its identical.

#2: If you take high enough doses of ephedrine, the effect will be the same as if you take amphetamine. In fact, the only difference is that amphetamine is usually polluted with ecstacy and amphetamine users usually take higher doses. That`s all.

#3: Ephedrine/amphetamines have the opposite effect of anti-psychotic drugs, meaning that they are PRO-psychotic. Yes, ephedrine will change the chemical state of your mind, affect your brain and can cause psychoses over time. Some people can take it for a long time without noticing anything, while others will end up in the psychiatric ward after only slight use.
Heavy use of ephedrine+little food (like being on a strict diet)+not enough sleep = recipe for straight jacket.

#4: When I told him that ephedrine used to be a supplement not too long ago, he said "so was amphetamine. There were a whole bunch of psychotic, middle-aged women with very slim bodies around back in the days".

#5: Ephedrine raises blood pressure, so big guys + ephedrine = big change of heart attack etc.

I know there`s a lot of guys here with knowledge on the matter. Are these effects more or less only theoretical and/or only a concern at extreme doses (like 500 mg at once)?
Do any of you know of people who have gotten "looney" from ephedrine?

**stupidhippo** · 02-27-2006, 03:33 PM

u r partly right but there are diffrences in amphetamine and ephedrine.. . I dont agree with the point number 1 or 2.

**vestax** · 02-27-2006, 04:22 PM

They are different chemicals the way they work. Amphetamine (which don't forget is a naturally occuring chemical in the body) is not usually what you hear of when people get psychoses, its methamphetamine which is a much dirtier chemical even in its purest form (which does not exist on the street)

My prof showed us PET and MRI slides of pre-meth users, then after they're hooked, then when they come off and its clear that even months after discontinuing use the brain does not recover fully.

I asked my prof a similar question like this the other day as he was running out of class and he said "the two chemicals are in the same family but exert their effects through different but similar pathways"

If you anyone is still interested in more info on this matter then post up here bc I dont want to keep asking my prof questions about amphetamines he'll think I'm a crackhead.

**stupidhippo** · 02-27-2006, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by vestax

They are different chemicals the way they work. Amphetamine (which don't forget is a naturally occuring chemical in the body) is not usually what you hear of when people get psychoses, its methamphetamine which is a much dirtier chemical even in its purest form (which does not exist on the street)

My prof showed us PET and MRI slides of pre-meth users, then after they're hooked, then when they come off and its clear that even months after discontinuing use the brain does not recover fully.

I asked my prof a similar question like this the other day as he was running out of class and he said "the two chemicals are in the same family but exert their effects through different but similar pathways"

If you anyone is still interested in more info on this matter then post up here bc I dont want to keep asking my prof questions about amphetamines he'll think I'm a crackhead.

amphetamine and coke do damage the brain also... Ive seen similar slides from coke / amphetamine addicts. Amphetamine occurs naturally in the body.. can uspecify a lil? Its a sympatomimetic that resembles soem substances taht occur naturally in our bodies but in that form? I disagre.. ofcouse I can be wrong but could u elaborate..

**vestax** · 02-27-2006, 05:52 PM

If I had to rate the damage from street drugs I would put coke/ecstacy at the top, followed by meth, with all forms of opiates very low at the bottom.

I think I worded it wrong as I was just typing an answer quick, what I meant to say is that ephedrine is working on the adrenigenic systems as is naturally occuring adren****e.

Amphetamine is a catecholamine that is very similar to adren****e but not working an identical system

It gets confusing because ephedrine does not hit 1 specific receptor nor does amphetamine so there is a lot of overlap when trying to split these drugs into two completely separate classes

Taking ephedrine every morning is obviously not going to damage you like taking amphetamine every day would. I have never heard any cases of ephedrine induced psychoses but there are definetly plenty with amphetamine related cases.

Also, I'm sure somewhere out there people have abused ephedrine and seen the results.

IMO taking it in moderation and not going crazy with is pretty safe.

**Power Viking** · 02-27-2006, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by vestax

If you anyone is still interested in more info on this matter then post up here bc I dont want to keep asking my prof questions about amphetamines he'll think I'm a crackhead.

I`d love some. Can`t you shove him the claims of my friend and ask if they are correct or not? I think we`re all interesting in knowing wether or not we are using something which is practically narcotics

**fitnesstrainer1967** · 02-27-2006, 08:03 PM

LOL crackhead.hmmm

**fitnesstrainer1967** · 02-27-2006, 08:04 PM

LOL crackhead.hmmm

**Bojangles69** · 02-27-2006, 10:25 PM

i once read that a given dose of ephedrine is converted in your body to 6% methamphetamine via hydrocholoric acid esterfication in your stomach than simple enzyme reduction. i cant take stimulants anymore cause speed and ephedrine destroyed my CNS.(i was a chemist) a cup of tea makes me shake like im kickn dope. ephedrine rewires your neural pathways in a way that floods your receptors and sensitizes your adrenal glands, what does this mean you ask?? during a natural human stimulus reaction our adrenal glands secrete NOREPINEPHRINE in a very small degree.(fight or flight drug) This drug in larger doses induces severe paranioa and anxiety (the psychotic sides). Ephedrine and amphetamine salts sensitize your glands permanently which means the same stimulus secrets more adren****e which = more anxiety/paranoia which is why there is actually a disorder in the DSM IV classified as Methamphetamine Psychosis.

**EdMan2** · 02-27-2006, 10:46 PM

Ephedrine is a potent stimulant, sure, but the difference between it and Methamphetamine albeit a single OH group makes a huge difference. Ephedrine has an OH attached to one of it's carbons which makes it very hard for it to cross the blood brain barrier. This takes a lot away from how it affects you. There's no need to go into all of the details, but you'd probably overdose from the stimulatory effects of ephedrine before you were able to induce Methamphetamine like results. Also don't get caught up in terms such as "pro-psychotic." Generally terms used in pharmacology have very specific meanings that are misinterpreted by many. Ephedrine will not alter your brain to that great of a degree.

**Bojangles69** · 02-27-2006, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by EdMan2

Ephedrine is a potent stimulant, sure, but the difference between it and Methamphetamine albeit a single OH group makes a huge difference. Ephedrine has an OH attached to one of it's carbons which makes it very hard for it to cross the blood brain barrier. This takes a lot away from how it affects you. There's no need to go into all of the details, but you'd probably overdose from the stimulatory effects of ephedrine before you were able to induce Methamphetamine like results. Also don't get caught up in terms such as "pro-psychotic." Generally terms used in pharmacology have very specific meanings that are misinterpreted by many. Ephedrine will not alter your brain to that great of a degree.

yes ephedrine breaks down in your body to a variety of byproducts, that O in the OH bond bonds with 2H2 from the 2HCL which esterfies another byproduct choromethamphetamine which is reduced further to simple meth. Ephedrine alone is psychoactive, and DOES INDUCE PSYCHOSIS.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/459207_print

**Ufa** · 02-28-2006, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Power Viking

I post this here as most of you users have "done it all" and have extensive knowledge on AAS and other chemicals.

I was doing some heavy box squats today, so heavy that it would make most of you up your doses in sheer envy, in fact.

. As I finished I talked to a guy who works as a nurse.

I mentioned that ephedrine was legal outside of competition and that I was therefor thinking about using some to help me with weight loss.
He then gave me some shocking facts.

#1: The only molycule which separates ephedrine from amphetamine doesn`t change much. For all practical puroposes its identical.

#2: If you take high enough doses of ephedrine, the effect will be the same as if you take amphetamine. In fact, the only difference is that amphetamine is usually polluted with ecstacy and amphetamine users usually take higher doses. That`s all.

#3: Ephedrine/amphetamines have the opposite effect of anti-psychotic drugs, meaning that they are PRO-psychotic. Yes, ephedrine will change the chemical state of your mind, affect your brain and can cause psychoses over time. Some people can take it for a long time without noticing anything, while others will end up in the psychiatric ward after only slight use.
Heavy use of ephedrine+little food (like being on a strict diet)+not enough sleep = recipe for straight jacket.

#4: When I told him that ephedrine used to be a supplement not too long ago, he said "so was amphetamine. There were a whole bunch of psychotic, middle-aged women with very slim bodies around back in the days".

#5: Ephedrine raises blood pressure, so big guys + ephedrine = big change of heart attack etc.

I know there`s a lot of guys here with knowledge on the matter. Are these effects more or less only theoretical and/or only a concern at extreme doses (like 500 mg at once)?
Do any of you know of people who have gotten "looney" from ephedrine?

A good way to loose weight is to wire your mouth shut! Not Speed. **** up your heart.

**thegodfather** · 02-28-2006, 01:06 AM

Interesting read...Id like to hear more discussion about this...last summer myself and a few buddies were running a particular UGL who is no longer in business, only running Test Enanthate . We all experienced psychosis like symptoms. We believed it was bunk gear, however we all still had supressed HPTA's. I experienced severe mood swings, and incredible paranoia that everything was out to get me. I was pretty much afraid of my own shadow and would enter severe periods of depression. We ran this garbage for 6-7 weeks before we decided that whatever was in it, was seriously tripping us the **** out.

My personal opinion on things like ephedrine, clenbuterol ,&DNP ...There are safer ways to lose the weight, like running a low dose test and cutting diet. Cutting a few more pounds is never worth some of the side effects of these drugs, including sacraficing your sanity. Id like to hear the guy in here who says hes a chemist elaborate a little more on his previous posts.

**davedizzle** · 02-28-2006, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Power Viking

#3: Ephedrine/amphetamines have the opposite effect of anti-psychotic drugs, meaning that they are PRO-psychotic. Yes, ephedrine will change the chemical state of your mind, affect your brain and can cause psychoses over time. Some people can take it for a long time without noticing anything, while others will end up in the psychiatric ward after only slight use.
Heavy use of ephedrine+little food (like being on a strict diet)+not enough sleep = recipe for straight jacket.

Be careful guys.. I'm just coming off medication which I've been on for seven years to keep my head together after abusing drugs like amphetamine as a ignorant teenager. I'm one of the luckier one's, a friend of mine has full blow schizophrenia.. he takes enough meds everyday to knock out your average bull elephant but it still doesn't stop the hallucinations. Messing with phsycological drugs is not worth it.

Dizzle

**stupidhippo** · 02-28-2006, 01:28 AM

was just at a friends funeral.. he jumped off a balcony.... he was suffering from schizophrenia.... then I know another one whos schizophrenia was triggered by ampetamines.. but I think u cannot compare ephedrine / clen to amphetamine still - thats going way overboard and anyone who has used them all prolly agrees here.. The effect to the CNS is so much more potent with amphetamine.. also the mechanism of action differs partly ...

**EdMan2** · 02-28-2006, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by Bojangles69

yes ephedrine breaks down in your body to a variety of byproducts, that O in the OH bond bonds with 2H2 from the 2HCL which esterfies another byproduct choromethamphetamine which is reduced further to simple meth. Ephedrine alone is psychoactive, and DOES INDUCE PSYCHOSIS.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/459207_print

I'd be interested in reading that, but that site requires I register. Could you post that writeup at all?

**stupidhippo** · 02-28-2006, 02:37 AM

i also suspect that that would require extreme doses then.. but I agree with the above post, am also interested in that article..

**vestax** · 02-28-2006, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Bojangles69

i cant take stimulants anymore cause speed and ephedrine destroyed my CNS.(i was a chemist) .

do you really think it was the ephedrine or the speed bro? I'd bet everything I own that it was the speed but if you were taking them together they may have had a more damaging effect.

**vestax** · 02-28-2006, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Interesting read...Id like to hear more discussion about this...last summer myself and a few buddies were running a particular UGL who is no longer in business, only running Test Enanthate. We all experienced psychosis like symptoms. We believed it was bunk gear, however we all still had supressed HPTA's. I experienced severe mood swings, and incredible paranoia that everything was out to get me. .

Bro we all trust the UGLs when we really shouldn't. Most of them are good but some of them are bad, who knows maybe this guy through some meth in with the oil to give his users a "boost" in the gym and didn't tell anyone

**vestax** · 02-28-2006, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Power Viking

I`d love some. Can`t you shove him the claims of my friend and ask if they are correct or not? I think we`re all interesting in knowing wether or not we are using something which is practically narcotics

Hey bro, I will try and ask him casually bc he'll know if I keep asking questions about this that I am taking ephedrine, but hell probably think im taking it to stay up and study.

I'll try and get the best answer possible for this board though

and btw taking ephedrine before a drug test will result in a false positive for amphatimes- so they do share similar metabolites.

**Ufa** · 02-28-2006, 09:39 AM

Meth is made from ephedrine.

**Milky87** · 03-01-2006, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by Power Viking

I post this here as most of you users have "done it all" and have extensive knowledge on AAS and other chemicals.

I was doing some heavy box squats today, so heavy that it would make most of you up your doses in sheer envy, in fact.

. As I finished I talked to a guy who works as a nurse.

I mentioned that ephedrine was legal outside of competition and that I was therefor thinking about using some to help me with weight loss.
He then gave me some shocking facts.

#1: The only molycule which separates ephedrine from amphetamine doesn`t change much. For all practical puroposes its identical.

#2: If you take high enough doses of ephedrine, the effect will be the same as if you take amphetamine. In fact, the only difference is that amphetamine is usually polluted with ecstacy and amphetamine users usually take higher doses. That`s all.

#3: Ephedrine/amphetamines have the opposite effect of anti-psychotic drugs, meaning that they are PRO-psychotic. Yes, ephedrine will change the chemical state of your mind, affect your brain and can cause psychoses over time. Some people can take it for a long time without noticing anything, while others will end up in the psychiatric ward after only slight use.
Heavy use of ephedrine+little food (like being on a strict diet)+not enough sleep = recipe for straight jacket.

#4: When I told him that ephedrine used to be a supplement not too long ago, he said "so was amphetamine. There were a whole bunch of psychotic, middle-aged women with very slim bodies around back in the days".

#5: Ephedrine raises blood pressure, so big guys + ephedrine = big change of heart attack etc.

I know there`s a lot of guys here with knowledge on the matter. Are these effects more or less only theoretical and/or only a concern at extreme doses (like 500 mg at once)?
Do any of you know of people who have gotten "looney" from ephedrine?

#1: The difference between molecules can be slight but have an amazing effect. If you take away the a-methyl group from amphetamine, you are lfet with phenethylamine,, which has no psychotropic effect at all. Also, even changing from one enantiomer to another (the way the molecule bends; to the right or left) can change its action, even though they are the same moleculel LSD is a good example of this. d-LSD is the one that causes distortions while l-LSD has no effect at all. It should also be noted that ephedrine also has an N-methyl group that doesnt exist on amphetamine

#2: MDMA is more costly to produce than (meth)amphetamine so it makes no sence to cut amphetamine with it

#3: yes, flooding the synapses with dopamine again and again can permenantly damage the DA receptors. it can also cause pychosis. Wihle on this I would also like to discredit the myth that MDMA has this effect; it doesnt. If a person used ephedrine correctly, there wouldnt be any hospitalisations and the same goes for every other drug.

#4: I thikn you will find that it used to be perscribed, just like it is today. The difference between no and back in the '50s is that the medical community has recognized amphetamine's potential for abuse and moved it up to schedue II

#5: thats a given

Obviously, taking too much of any drug is going to have negative effects. Aslong as people stick to sensible doses, there wont be problems. I dont, and doubt ever will, know someone who has become psychotic from ephedrine abuse