Dbol femara HCG bridge

[Swole33]

I know alot of you are anti bridging. I just read a study that a dbol arimidex cycle can be run long term without major endocrine problems. http://www.*************/findArticle.do?article=206nev2 . I also read a study saying that 2.5mg femara daily increases hypogonadal mens test levels dramatically in 6 weeks. That articles found on Pub Med. So when one is coming off cycle, I am curious about the blood work done with someone who used HCG weekly, femara nightly, and 10mg dbol at 6-8am? and with this protical if one would recover 90% realistically??

[cherrypappa]

Wow bro, I like the idea...but honestly after studying the endocrince system I can't see how this would be possible.

[Swole33]

like it states the the first article, dianabol binds poorly with the androgen receptor. the less a drug binds to the AR the less suppression. Also,dbol causes alot of suppression do to its estrogenic effects, by using femara, the strongest anti e, which has a track record of boosting test levels 300% which is the eqivalent of 200mg test ethanate aweek. it seems possible...

any opinions. ........ when most people talk about bridging, the just want to use dbol in the am, with clomid or novaldex. people forget thought that clomid and novaldex fight for the estrogen receptor, not stop the conversion to estrogen like arimdex and femara. and to use HCG to get Lh back up to a sufficient level

[Swifto]

like it states the the first article, dianabol binds poorly with the androgen receptor. the less a drug binds to the AR the less suppression. Also,dbol causes alot of suppression do to its estrogenic effects, by using femara, the strongest anti e, which has a track record of boosting test levels 300% which is the eqivalent of 200mg test ethanate aweek. it seems possible...

any opinions. ........ when most people talk about bridging, the just want to use dbol in the am, with clomid or novaldex. people forget thought that clomid and novaldex fight for the estrogen receptor, not stop the conversion to estrogen like arimdex and femara. and to use HCG to get Lh back up to a sufficient level

Really? So, Anavar which binds fairly well to the AR is very suppressive then? This isnt the case as Anavar is one of the milder compounds to the HPTA.

How was this worked out?

[Swole33]

IN the case of anavar, the problem with it post cycle is that it remains steady in the blood stream for 10-18 hours, then is excreted. Dianabol is in the blood stream for 3-5 hours then is excreted. technically, when you bridge, its kinda like a quiky. a hit and run. u take a dbol, use it , then excrete it. anavar is less surpressive to the HPTA, but you get lower serum testosterone raise mg for mg (compared to dbol) , and it lasts longer in your body, due to its duration and lack of androgenic properties.

[Swole33]

has anyone bridged with dbol, femara , and hcg?

[C_Bino]

I have never bridged before. I can only give my input into the femara because I have used it before for both anti-e and gyno reversal. 2.5mg ED is the standard dose for reversing gyno (or trying to). With that much your estrogen levels will definitely be wiped out almost 100% and it will dry you out pretty well. I would just be careful usign 2.5mg ED, I dont think you need that much IMO. Also be careful with the estrogen rebound when you come off it, taper it down instead of just dropping from 2.5,g to 0mg.

Like I said I dont know a ton about the other things, but it seems like an interesting idea. Hopefully some vets can help you out here.

-Bino

[Swole33]

any body have any blood work done after a dbol bridge?

[Swole33]

Comparative assessment in young and elderly men of the gonadotropin response to aromatase inhibition.

T'Sjoen GG, Giagulli VA, Delva H, Crabbe P, De Bacquer D, Kaufman JM.

Department of Endocrinology, Ghent University Hospital, De Pintelaan 185, 9000 Ghent, Belgium. [email protected]

CONTEXT: Aging in men is associated with a decline in serum testosterone (T) levels. OBJECTIVE: Our objective was to assess whether decreased T in aging might result from increased estradiol (E2) negative feedback on gonadotropin secretion. DESIGN AND SETTING: We conducted a comparative intervention study (2004) in the Outpatient Endocrinology Clinic, Ghent University Hospital. PARTICIPANTS: Participants included healthy young and elderly men (n = 10 vs. 10). INTERVENTIONS: We used placebo and letrozole (2.5 mg/d) for 28 d, separated by 2 wk washout. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: We assessed changes in serum levels of free E2, LH, and FSH, free T, SHBG, and gonadotropins response to an i.v. 2.5-microg GnRH bolus. RESULTS: As assessed after 28 d of treatment, letrozole lowered E2 by 46% in the young men (P = 0.002) and 62% in the elderly men (P < 0.001). In both age groups, letrozole, but not placebo, significantly increased LH levels (339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively) and T (146 and 99%, respectively) (P value of young vs. elderly was not significant). Under letrozole, peak LH response to GnRH was 152 and 52% increase from baseline in young and older men, respectively (P = 0.01). CONCLUSIONS: Aromatase inhibition markedly increased basal LH and T levels and the LH response to GnRH in both young and elderly men. The observation of similar to greater LH responses in the young compared with the elderly does not support the hypothesis that increased restraining of LH secretion by endogenous estrogens is instrumental in age-related decline of Leydig cell function.

[Crom99]

Well, I have done a dbol bridge before and am doing one now. I only use dbol though, Clomid, Nolvadex and the likes does nothing for me. I just feel depressed, have moodswings and loose motivation when doing a standard PCT.

So I switched to dbol bridge - well at least tried it. 10mg in the AM. First time I used it for 4 weeks and got bloodwork done 2 weeks after the bridge. I had much higher test levels then I usually do after a standard PCT. Felt great and everything was back up and running again.

Can't find the bloodwork test, have no idea where I put it at home, but that's my personal experience anyway, and that's the way I do it.

Can't speak for others though as we are all different.

[IBdmfkr]

Crom is it possible you had bloodwork on the same day you took 10mg of Dbol perhaps playing a role in your higher test levels? Never heard of Dbol recovering natural Test levels, but rather shutting them down.

[Crom99]

No, like I wrote: I had bloodwork done 2 weeks _after_ I quit dbol.

[IBdmfkr]

Interesting. Although I wouldn't recommend it.

[Swole33]

if you just finish your last shot Crom then take dbol until your next cycle. you may start to have some major endocrine issues. see if you can find your blood work? what is your cholesterol, blood preasure, and estrogen/test/cortisol ratio?

[Crom99]

Don't misunderstand me, this is what I do:

2 weeks after my last shot of Test I start with 10mg dbol in the AM and continue the dbol for 3-4 weeks. Then I go completely off dbol and don't cycle again until I'm ready for it.

The dbol is not a bridge for me beacuase I don't start up a new cycle when I'm done with the dbol. I just use it because it works as a better "PCT" for me than the standard PCT.

[vitor]

Don't misunderstand me, this is what I do:

2 weeks after my last shot of Test I start with 10mg dbol in the AM and continue the dbol for 3-4 weeks. Then I go completely off dbol and don't cycle again until I'm ready for it.

The dbol is not a bridge for me beacuase I don't start up a new cycle when I'm done with the dbol. I just use it because it works as a better "PCT" for me than the standard PCT.

I dont understand that.

To recover HPTA effectively an SERM or AI will be nedded to block the innbithion by estrogen from the pituitary. D-bol will do no such thing.

But hey, if it works for you, Greate!

[JohnnyB]

to use HCG to get Lh back up to a sufficient level

That right there is an untrue statement, HCG mimics LH it does not stimulate LH, nlova and clomid stimulate LH. Yes the use of HCG while not on a cycle will get your test levels up, but you have done nothing to stimulate LH. What you've done is told the body that it already has LH, so the end result is the body does not produce any.

One more problem I see, femara at 2.5mg ed, you want to talk about a sex drive killer. I used 1.25mg eod while on 500mg of test and it killed my sex drive.

I say this is a bad idea, but it's your body and we'll know if it doesn't work out, because you won't post about it anymore. My recommendation to all other members is don't try this.

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

I just remember something else, you next mentioned how much HCG you are going to use per dose. One 1500iu dose will desensitize the testes to LH, so depending on the dose(s) use you could be causing more problem then you are trying to solve. Rememebr the active life of HCG is about 64 hours, this will have an effect on how you dose HCG and wheather it'll have an effect on the testes and LH.

JohnnyB

[IBdmfkr]

Good info Johnny.

[Milky87]

If you check out the arimidex profile, you will see that it contains a picture with graphs that show the difference in estradiol and testosterone levels after 10 days of 0.5mg and 1mg of arimidex.

At 0.5mgs ED, these young men (15 - 22yo) went from ~550ng/dl to ~790ng/dl. This is a 43.6% increase in testosterone, which would be equivalent to injecting of 195mg of test E per week (assuming that the average man produces 14mgs of test per day [a stat i read somewhere]). It also about halved estradiol levels. This in itself could be used as a very minor bridge.

There are some people (and I agree with them) saying that 10mgs of dbol in the morning would be effective for a very light cycle or bridge with minimal to no suppression as by the end of the day, less than 1mg remains. Couple this with the fact that it hardly aromatizes and it seems pretty good.

Im going to go so far as to say that 10mgs of dbol, along with 0.5mg of arimidex (or maybe just 0.25mgs) could be used year-round with minimal, if any, side effects. It would work well provided you are looking for progressive, lean gains as opposed to bulky explosions

[JohnnyB]

So you get from a study done for 10 days with 0.5mg of armidex, to running it year round with no side effects, that's quite a jump, a dangerous one to say the least.

As far as the d-bol theory goes, once the d-bol is absorbed, it'll send a signal to the HPTA that there is a spike of an anabolic hormone, which will in turn tell it that it doesn't need to produce test. That's what you have to worry about while doing a bridge, not how much is going to be in your system at the end of the day. it's the negative feedback that you need to avoid and using an anabolic steroid in what ever dose is going to send that signal to the HPTA. I use 100mg a week or 200mg every 2 weeks for HRT, guess what. I still get that negative feedback, how do I know because the boys athorpy.

Look Bro if you want to bridge the only bridge that will let you recover fully is LR3 and slin on a 4 week rotation, if you're not ready for slin, then you can go with LR3 4 on 4 off. But trust me, a bridge using any type of AAS is not going to let you recover fully, which in time will lead to sexual issues later in life.

The study you sited was good, but it was for 10 days at 0.5mg, not year round. Don't think that halving the dose will gives you the leeway to extend it's findings, 355 days. Now if you can find a study that shows using it for one year had no negative effects at 0.25mg, that maybe you'll have something, but even that does give you the right to add d-bol to it an expect the same results. When sing these studies you need to stay with in the limits of that study to get the same results. Since we use AAS, extending it another 10 days, could be workable, but not 355 days and d-bol, at least stay with in the limit of the drug used in the study.

I will give you props though, most people wouldn't even take the time to read a study or even post their thoughts, because someone might disagree with them. This shows me and everyone else that you are thinking about want you want to do and are willing to research to find what you are looking for. I like that, not very many do that. Keep reading and researching Bro we need more like you in our community.

JohnnyB

[Milky87]

I will give you props though, most people wouldn't even take the time to read a study or even post their thoughts, because someone might disagree with them. This shows me and everyone else that you are thinking about want you want to do and are willing to research to find what you are looking for. I like that, not very many do that. Keep reading and researching Bro we need more like you in our community.

Aw, shux *blushes*.

I hear what you are saying and see where you are comming from and I agree, there is no way on earth that I could extrapolate the findings of one short study to the degree that i did.

Also, after doing just a little more reading, I found other sites stating that a man's daily testosterone production was 4 - 7mgs per day, so that kind of throughs out my theory of it being used as a mild cycle (talking anastrozole standalone)*, but it does open up the doors for its use in HRT seeing as you would be the equivalent of ~98mg of Test E per week.

Im really quite pissed off because i know that the late Dr John Ziegler recommended - and perscribed - dianabol in doses of 5 - 10mgs per day, but I cant find anything about the duration of this dosing protocol.

Regarding my talk of only having 1mg of the dbol floating around by bed-time (heh, sad I still call it that); this is because durign hte first 3 - 4 hours of sleep is when the biggest surge in test. production ocurs, so you would want as minimal negative feedback from androgen as possible. I dont mind missing out on my waking-hours testosterone production if I am supplementing with a much more powerful androgen. At this point id like to draw attention to Anthony's dianabol profile:

In this study, done in the early 80’s, a very high dose of Dbol (100mgs/day for 6 weeks) decreased plasma testosterone to about 40% of it’s normal value, plasma GH went up about a third, LH dropped to about 80% of it’s original value, and FSH went down about a third also (these are all approximate numbers, for the sake of brevity, but you get the idea). Bodyfat did not go up significantly and Fat Free Mass went up anywhere between 2-7kgs (3.3kgs average gain). The researchers concluded that Dbol increases Fat Free Mass as well as increasing strength and performance. I can only agree, having found this to be the case for me when I did my first cycle (which was 6 weeks of dbol alone at 25mgs/day)…I gained roughly 25lbs and kept nearly ½ of it. Since then, Dbol has always had a special place in my heart…

Lastly, I have to give credit to Anthony 'Hooker' Roberts for supplying the information about arimidex in he profile that he wrote

*unless combined with low-dose dbol

[Milky87]

I just remembered I had this study open in another window which is relevant to this topic: http://intl-jcem.endojournals.org/cg...full/89/3/1174

As men age, serum testosterone levels decrease, a factor that may contribute to some aspects of age-related physiological deterioration. Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in frankly hypogonadal men, its use in elderly men with borderline hypogonadism is controversial. Furthermore, current testosterone replacement methods have important limitations.

We investigated the ability of the orally administered aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole, to increase endogenous testosterone production in 37 elderly men (aged 62–74 yr) with screening serum testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily (n = 12); group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly (n = 11); and group 3: placebo daily (n = 14). Hormone levels, quality of life (MOS Short-Form Health Survey), sexual function (International Index of Erectile Function), benign prostate hyperplasia severity (American Urological Association Symptom Index Score), prostate-specific antigen, and measures of safety were compared among groups.

Mean ± SD bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 ± 31 to 207 ± 65 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 ± 37 to 178 ± 55 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.054 group 1 vs. group 2). Total testosterone levels increased from 343 ± 61 to 572 ± 139 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 ± 106 to 520 ± 91 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.012 group 1 vs. group 2). Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 ± 8 to 17 ± 6 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 ± 8 to 17 ± 5 pg/ml in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Serum LH levels increased from 5.1 ± 4.8 to 7.9 ± 6.5 U/liter and from 4.1 ± 1.6 to 7.2 ± 2.8 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P = 0.007 group 1 vs. placebo, P = 0.003 group 2 vs. placebo, and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Scores for hematocrit, MOS Short-Form Health Survey, International Index of Erectile Function, and American Urological Association Symptom Index Score did not change. Serum prostate-specific antigen levels increased in group 2 only (1.7 ± 1.0 to 2.2 ± 1.5 ng/ml, P = 0.031, compared with placebo).

These data demonstrate that aromatase inhibition increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the youthful normal range in older men with mild hypogonadism. Serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range. The physiological consequences of these changes remain to be determined.

*Prepare to marvel at my ability to extrapolate data*
Now, those in group 2 who took 1mg twice per week had their total testosterone levels go from 397 ± 106 to 520 ± 91 ng/dl. Now, if we were using the '65,93,99.7' rule for distribution curves, and group 2 had consisted of 300 participants, this means that one lucky bastard should have had his test. levels go from 79ng/dl to a whopping 793ng/dl. Pity life doesnt work like that . Oh well, an average increase of 31% is still pretty nice.

If these people experienced no negative side-effects after 12 weeks from running 1mg twice per day, 0.25mg ED should be BETTER for two reasons:
1) 0.25mgs ED for 12 weeks would result in less chemical, so even lower chance of side effects
2) More stable blod-levels

Ok, im done

[Swole33]

When i posted "to use HCG to get back LH to a sufficient level" i was not wrong at all. The whole purpose of post cycle is to get your endocrine system back on track.I will only use HCG for 4 weeks in conjunction with dbol, and femara, and i guess technically a low dose of novaldex to help stabalize the LH fluctuation post HCG

But are we still risking some inhibition and possibly delaying our recovery by using HCG? Probably not…you see, some studies in humans have shown that HCG does not actually have a direct effect on inhibiting LH release in men, but rather works to inhibit LH secretion indirectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone (thus activating the negative feedback loop). Another factor involved is the induction of testicular aromatase, which raises estrogen levels, again causing inhibition. Unfortunately, yet another process, the downregulation of the Leydig Cell LH receptor itself, seems to also play a role in high dose HCG testicular desensitization. This is also done by HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) to testosterone. Nolvadex actually stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place. Most likely, because of Nolvadex’s direct antiestrogenic effect and LH-upregulating effect on the Pituitary, suppression of gonadotropins via HCG is almost totally stopped with concurrent administration of Nolvadex! So if we Use Nolvadex and we are only using HCG when we are low in gonadatropins, we won’t be inhibited by it at all! Right?

[Swole33]

ALso there is no study proving that femara kills sex drive in MEN. all the studys and side effects are based on post menopas women. Read my study above. femara increase test, lh, fsh. no impact on libido in men.

no offense johnny, if your gonna say "femara kills libido" prove it with a study. also 500mg test can kill your libido, especially if it was fake or underdosed like most of the juice out there.

[Swole33]

my post cycle is being utilized as followed. two weeks after my last equipoise shot. i ran 10mg novaldex through my cycle. and stoped second week of protocal
week 1 novaldex 10 mg 6-7 am HCG 5000iu x1 2.5 mg femara nightly
week 2 10 mg dbol 6-7 am HCG 5000iu x1 2.5 mg femara nightly
-
week 6 10 mg dbol 6-7 am HCG 5000iu x1 2.5 mg femara nightly
blood test
week 6-8 2.5mg femara nightly
then ill even have a 2 week wash out period and repeat blood test on week 8.

[Swole33]

i am starting week 3 tomorrow. no libido problems so far and i feel great.and my weight and appetite are up. i have morning wood every morning, and am horney all day.

[Swole33]

i take milk thistle at night.. also im supplementing with. kre aklyn, glutamine , vit C, american ginseng,ALA, superpump 250 and hot rox.

[IBdmfkr]

All that could've been summed up in one post, don't you think?

[RONINASAUNA]

sorry for sounding ignorant...

but why not do PCT with Clomid???

Seems it can only help.. no?

[IBdmfkr]

There are other compounds which work the same or better. It's not necessary if substituted.

[RONINASAUNA]

There are other compounds which work the same or better. It's not necessary if substituted.

thanks

[Swole33]

i just wanted to see if anyone was curious about this "bridging" idea. I guess we will find out after my 2 week washout period...