Steroids and Kidneys

**roydrage** · 03-11-2006, 12:05 PM

I've had some problems holding my pottassium doctors believe it may be a kidney problem. Are there any links to steroids and kidney disease, failure or anything related to pottassium defeciency

**BigChris** · 03-11-2006, 12:11 PM

One of my friends suffered from kidney failure while he was on gear. He refused to tell me what he was on though...but yes, you can draw a straight line between the two.

Chris

**dabigcheese** · 03-11-2006, 12:24 PM

Chris,

I thought you can do kidney damage if you used Tren . But not otherwise?

There can of course be other causes of kidney damage including high blood pressure - long cycles can often cause blood pressure to stay higher than normal for extended periods of time. And high blood pressure can certainly damage the kidneys.

How common is kidney trouble among bodybuilders who use steroids ?

**Hellmaskbanned** · 03-11-2006, 12:30 PM

I'm always seeing BBers having kidney transplants.

**dabigcheese** · 03-11-2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hellmask

I'm always seeing BBers having kidney transplants.

Ok mate. That scared the shit out of me.

What kinds of BBers are we talking about? Heavy juicers? Moderate juicers or even occasional juicers?

**dabigcheese** · 03-11-2006, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by BigChris

One of my friends suffered from kidney failure while he was on gear. He refused to tell me what he was on though...but yes, you can draw a straight line between the two.

Chris

Id guess he was on Trenbolone and very large quantities of it - unless he had a kidney condition but never realised that he did........

**Hellmaskbanned** · 03-11-2006, 12:34 PM

Top BBers, but I'm sure others that don't compete that cycle heavily have kidney probs aswell.

**BigChris** · 03-11-2006, 12:35 PM

Kidney damage is not very common with steroid use - your main problem area is the liver and (later) the heart.

As far as I know they have not been able to link steroids to kidney damage scientifically - I do know that you do put your kidneys under great pressure since they need to filter (and excrete) toxins...blood pressure can definitely also cause some damage.

Why my friend suffered from kidney failure is still unclear, but he was in great shape, very very fit (he did K1 fighting) and never had any problems before. I would love to ask him for some info but he shortly afterwards went to Thailand and we have broken contact.

**dabigcheese** · 03-11-2006, 12:41 PM

There are people who have never seen a vial of steroid in their life and never eaten any more than 60 grams of Protein a day who often end up with kidney failure. I can think of a few examples myself.

One thing that is fatal to the Kidneys is Diabetes. With more and more BBers using Insulin , the risk of long term Diabetes (and therefore Kidney failure) must be very high among them.

The top BBers are taking an enormous amount of steroids that must ultimately cause something to go wrong. It can't be healthy to inject a gram of Test every day, for example.

As an occasional user of Steroids (and as someone who may not use them except in very short cycles and in very limited amounts only to maintain) after this cycle, I would say that guys like me would be at risk only if we used Insulin or Trenbolone or something along those lines.

That said, you never know what you may get. The human body is unpredictable after all. So many people get cancer for no reason........

**dabigcheese** · 03-11-2006, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by BigChris

Kidney damage is not very common with steroid use - your main problem area is the liver and (later) the heart.

As far as I know they have not been able to link steroids to kidney damage scientifically - I do know that you do put your kidneys under great pressure since they need to filter (and excrete) toxins...blood pressure can definitely also cause some damage.

Why my friend suffered from kidney failure is still unclear, but he was in great shape, very very fit (he did K1 fighting) and never had any problems before. I would love to ask him for some info but he shortly afterwards went to Thailand and we have broken contact.

Liver trouble would only be an issue with orals right? And heart trouble only with sustained and long term usage?

**BigChris** · 03-11-2006, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by dabigcheese

Liver trouble would only be an issue with orals right? And heart trouble only with sustained and long term usage?

Unfortunately it is not a rule of thumb and no-one can say how your body will react. Yes injections are better for the liver but then it all varies from person to person, quantities and duration. The various risks involved is something everybody should take into account before they start taking gear - it is not guaranteed that you will be safe just because you are following the 'rules' - no parameters can be set around safety.

With regards to long term usage - again it varies. There have been cases of young guys having heart attacks while on gear (I would especially like to point a finger at clenbuterol )

**Hellmaskbanned** · 03-11-2006, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by BigChris

Unfortunately it is not a rule of thumb and no-one can say how your body will react. Yes injections are better for the liver but then it all varies from person to person, quantities and duration. The various risks involved is something everybody should take into account before they start taking gear - it is not guaranteed that you will be safe just because you are following the 'rules' - no parameters can be set around safety.

With regards to long term usage - again it varies. There have been cases of young guys having heart attacks while on gear (I would especially like to point a finger at clenbuterol)

Clen isn't a steroid . Of course overdosing with fatburners is far more dangerous then say overdosing with deca , because they directly effect the heart rate and body temp.

**dabigcheese** · 03-11-2006, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by BigChris

Unfortunately it is not a rule of thumb and no-one can say how your body will react. Yes injections are better for the liver but then it all varies from person to person, quantities and duration. The various risks involved is something everybody should take into account before they start taking gear - it is not guaranteed that you will be safe just because you are following the 'rules' - no parameters can be set around safety.

With regards to long term usage - again it varies. There have been cases of young guys having heart attacks while on gear (I would especially like to point a finger at clenbuterol)

I'd also add dosage to long term usage. Even if usage is not long term but the dosage is very high, the risk will obviously be higher.

The way I see it though is that if the risk with moderate usage is no more than getting hit by a car on the road or of getting run over by a bus, then it is not an unreasonable risk.

Why do people use Clen for fat burning if they can achieve better results with Growth Hormone (at low dosages)? It should bo nowhere near as unsafe as using Clen right?

**BigChris** · 03-11-2006, 01:19 PM

Yes I probably should have stated that clen is not a steroid - I meant to refer to general substance abuse by bodybuilders and power lifters...which definitely includes clenbuterol for its anabolic qualities. Clen is well known causing cardiac arrhythmias because of collagen build-up in the heart.

**stupidhippo** · 03-11-2006, 02:34 PM

collagen build up in the heart.. could u elaborate a lil ? how significant is this? Ive read some reports on the possible effefcs of clen to cardiac apoptosis / necrosis... but could u elaborate a lil more..

this kidney thing: would sure like to see some statistics since so many BB's seem to end up having kidney problems... and this is pretty uncommon for young / middel-aged ppl.. secondly: high blood pressure does damage the kidneys, there is no maybe about that.

**BigChris** · 03-11-2006, 03:30 PM

I got the info from a medical professional (himself a bodybuilder) who pointed it out to me in one of his pharmacy books. I cannot give you the exact details...except if I go search for his book, but I did manage to find a bit of writing on this, even though the tests where done on rats:

" the hearts of the clenbuterol -taking, trained rats increased dramatically in size compared to the hearts of sedentary rats, but the heart expansion was probably due to the infiltration of collagen fibres into the heart walls, not an increase in heart-muscle cells. Collagen is a tough connective tissue which doesn't augment heart-muscle power but in fact stiffens the heart, potentially leading to a decrease in cardiac output. Increases in collagen may also produce cardiac arrhythmias "

Again this was only done on rats but clearly there is a link.

Are you saying that everybody who has got high blood pressure suffers from kidney damage??

**stupidhippo** · 03-11-2006, 04:04 PM

to some extent... if its long term and also depends on the severity of the situation.. some damage is reversible also.... another reason to keep blood pressure in check (as if there wasnt already enough reasons to do so)...

**stupidhippo** · 03-11-2006, 04:09 PM

Im already very sceptical of clen (which is a shame cause I love it in PCT).... the thig that Im wondering is this a common property to all b2 agonists which would be pretty unlikely since they are used so commonly... What then makes clen so bad to the heart?? This is sumin that really interests me... if something causes necrosis the only thing that can be the outcome is fibrosis(I think this was meant by with the collagen migrating into the wall)..

**dabigcheese** · 03-11-2006, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by BigChris

I got the info from a medical professional (himself a bodybuilder) who pointed it out to me in one of his pharmacy books. I cannot give you the exact details...except if I go search for his book, but I did manage to find a bit of writing on this, even though the tests where done on rats:

" the hearts of the clenbuterol -taking, trained rats increased dramatically in size compared to the hearts of sedentary rats, but the heart expansion was probably due to the infiltration of collagen fibres into the heart walls, not an increase in heart-muscle cells. Collagen is a tough connective tissue which doesn't augment heart-muscle power but in fact stiffens the heart, potentially leading to a decrease in cardiac output. Increases in collagen may also produce cardiac arrhythmias "

Again this was only done on rats but clearly there is a link.

Are you saying that everybody who has got high blood pressure suffers from kidney damage??

I don't think Kidney damage is a foregone conclusion with high blood pressure (a lot also depends on how high the blood pressure is and how long it has persisted before the patient took medication to reduce it). I have relatives who have had high blood pressure for years but they don't appear to have suffered any kidney damage as far as I know.

I don't think it is a given in every single case. There are a lot of variables.

Diabetes on the other hand is a sure shot way to kill the kidneys. No question about it.

**roydrage** · 03-11-2006, 08:39 PM

as to the heavy to moderate use.. i was taking a deca only cycle both times i had trouble in the kidneys. 300mg/wk. never done more then deca dbol at the same time. now im not saying it was the roids but it sure sems like it

**stupidhippo** · 03-12-2006, 01:30 AM

some diabetics never get kidney problems either... eventhough they prolly have some damage.. Like I said: the kidney damage depends on the severity of the situation and if it doesnt get that bad it can be reversible. Secondly, the kidneys have a huge reserve, for any clinical manifestation of kidney problems a huge part of kidneys need tto be destroyed... It also dependso on where the damage is.. glomeruli dont regenerate while if there is tubular damage they can regenerate in some situations..