Clomid Only Cycle (no roids)

[tommybono]

buenos dias!

I am currently drug-free powerlifter with access to Clomid. I am young (18) and have no desire to engage in anything that may cause inhibition in my hormonal system, so I not use anabolic steroids .

I want to use clomiphene because it help with my own production of testosteron. That is desired effect as I feel I am a little low-normal range in testosteron. Low sperm volume, low rate in recovery, and very low amounts of body hair.

Going into high normal would help powerlifting, perhaps. What do you think? What dose to use? I can afford 50mg 3x per week, max. Is that enough? But I am not after extreme cycle. Just normalize personal testosteron.

Also I be thinking 2 weeks on, 4 weeks off. Is that alright? Not use anabolics. Not use supplements (but creatine).

BTW Not in particular slump in training but could be better. 2 years solid training.

Muchos gracias para ayudarme! Thanks all.

[the original jason]

hmm waist of time to be honest imho, clomid is used to come off juice, if you have low test levels u might be better looking into hrt however being 18 I dont see how that can be? I think you are to young just carry on natural and keep researching

peace

[tommybono]

Gracias mr. Jason,

A lot of people have said that - stay clean and experiment. That is good idea, and have much merit. It is actually my plan for now - am trying methoxy7 of biotest if any good and i try to isolate results by taking methoxy7 alone. So the decision arise from this will implement in a month at the earliest.

Public Medical Archive of United States say the ff:

"...we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration."

The results were:

"After CC [clomiphene citrate] administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG[sex hormone binding globulin]-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively."

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract)

Hope this link working.

The results seem close as that of Tribulus Terrestris (reputable kinds) so it should be much like taking such common supplementation. But I am avoidant of the tribulus product because of protodioscin in tribulus converting in to DHEA which converting to androstenedione which I hate and am avoidant of all pro-hormones as I am careful not to disrupt personal production.

All in all clomid appear safe, though restricted. But just equivalent to taking tribulus, just more reliable and on different axis.

What do you think? Would this change consideration?

Gracias Señor Jason.

[the original jason]

write up as many surveys as u like, I guess you can only find out by trying it but I have took tribulus when straight did nothing and also I have never actually tried just to take clomid alone. Well I have but when in recovery from cycle so I guess it wont count. I really doubt very much youu will gain anything apart from pyschological benefits that you are taking something as you have never juiced. Just my opinion not sure if there will any bros who have tried clomid alone who can answer you

peace

[tommybono]

Yes that is right, I think am on wrong board for clomid-only advise. It appears because of prescription only status of clomiphene nobody consider it as little helping supplement without roids. That is why I think this is being very novel idea, very interesting.

Have a friend who has taken clomiphene for help with getting his wife pregnant, and he noticed better strength gains and some aggression. Interesting no?

This is really just idea toying in my head as clomiphene is easy to come by and seem safe.

Thank you for your help Mr. Jason. If I do try it I will tell the list. Would that be adviseable? That may put me in legal jeopardy.

What kind of tribulus did you take? Just wondering. It seem only Tribex and Tribestan not useless shit. But that I only have from hearsay.

One point to consider though would be the considerably high estradiol from clomid supplementation. However since clomid block estrogen receptor, estradiol should not be problem, maybe? What you think?

I am very confused. Maybe stick to glutamine and BCAAs instead. So very confusing!

Gracias again Mr. Jason, thanks for your much help.

[bitchtits]

Bro, I think you may need to keep to legal supplements. Don't fuck up and take just clomid, if you are going to go to the dark side
then go all the way. But don't just take clomid. Just take some glutamine, creatine, etc.
-East Coast

[tommybono]

The dark side beckons. Jump in! Do not tippy-toe.

It appears I will have to say on the brighter side of the law for now. But let's see, let's see what people think.

Gracias to you all. This is a wonderful board.

[kizer_soce]

Honestly I think you could benefit from clomid only but not at 50mg only 3x per week. If you are not willing to use gear but want an edge then I think it could help, the very minimum I would do is 50mg per day though if I were you.

[androplex]

I really doubt very much youu will gain anything apart from pyschological benefits that you are taking something as you have never juiced. Just my opinion not sure if there will any bros who have tried clomid alone who can answer you

Never heard of just taking clomid......

uhhh .....you might get pregnant.

[androplex]

TNT

So if you take too much, what happens is simple: You become pregnant. Even if your name is George.

But it's cool - you'll be able to make lots of money by writing a book about it.

Remember the clinial indication of Clomid: to induce ovulation.

[tommybono]

I mean no insult at all but about the pregnancy you guys are joking right? I am studying Biology in college and I know for a fact this is not possible. But then you guys are joking so it is very funny joke!

Clinical use of clomid is anti-estrogen. Common use of clomid is inducing ovulation by stimulating FSH (which it does in hombres too). But FSH make for spermatogenesis in males, not ovulation. I am sorry if my endocrinology is imperfect btw, but I think I have that right, mas o menos.

Clomiphene citrate is beginning to gain widespread use for hypogonadism (low T) and is well established as a fertility aid for low-sperm men.

But as a strength & size supplement? We shall see no?

But really, you guys were joking right?

Gracias for funny joke I did not get.

[tommybono]

BTW Señor Kizer Soce I agree, 50 mg thrice a week is a tad light. But friend who use only did 25 mg thrice a week. And I am only 140lbs looking for light boost.

What do you think about the cycling 2 weeks on 4 weeks off? Is it preferable not to go off?

Muchas gracias again.

[tuff]

Ok if you are taking clomid to get your test levels up you are not on this planet. It is used, like tommybono said, in women to make them ovulate and in men it stimulats the FSH and LH levels so that they will get a sort of kick start after being supressed. Now if you were to take it during a test cycle then yes it would help with your natural test count as well as the test you take there for giving you more test for your buck, but as a solo cycle you are not going to see anything as far as gains go.
Peace out
tuff

[Strutt]

I think the lack of gains from a clomid only cycle may be that fact that Clomid blocks estrogen thus making the extra testosterone you produce useless for anabolic gains.

I have seen studies that indicate too much or too little estrogen can affect gains. Which may be why things like Winny and 1-test that do not aromatize are not very anabolic.

Just a thought.

[tommybono]

Tuff: let me rephrase question a bit. What good would 100% testosteron increase and 300% free-testosteron increase do me? Yes this probably put me at high normal instead of low normal, but would this make lifting tad better? Help make gains at a less decelerated pace?

Strutt: You have interesting point there about the importance of estrogen. Some expert (I forget where) say clomid actually make you make gains slower because of blocking estrogen and estrogen somehow help get big. Very interesting. I do not know how this physiologically is sound, but it sounded interesting. I will look into it.

Gracias to all. BTW I am in understanding that it seem much crazy to use clomid alone. I understand. Why break law for such mediocre gains? But I am after one thing: ENDOGENOUS T INCREASE. The T increase must come from within. EXOGENOUS is what everything else provide even cheap legal supplement. They are external source. Clomid makes for personal production. Endo - generated from within. I think endogenous pathway very important especially since I am teen.

Besides, don't ask how, getting clomid could never be problem for me.

I am just wondering if it is valid. It is proven yes Clomid bring T up 100%, free T up 304% (much better than androstenedione's 0% and 34% respectively [croc of shit ha!]) in healthy young men, and block estrogen. Help men make women pregnant, yes. Help men with low T yes. Help men with high T get a little more, yes. Help old men yes. But help athleta? Big question. Very big question. Need every help.

Muchas gracias again.

[Strutt]

If you want to maximize your own testosterone without going the steroid route I would go with HCG over Clomid. HCG is not a steroid or a controlled substance (as far as I know). While it may be harder to obtain than Clomid, it is far more anabolic . I have read of some lifters who were banned in their sport because they used HCG.

You could go with 500 IU 3xs a week like MWF for 10 weeks. Or you could frontload and use 2500 IU first week. Depending on your response, you can get a total T reading of 1000+.

Depending on your response, you might want to use an anti-estrogen because HCG will aromatize.

[tommybono]

"Dan liked estrogenic steroids . He liked methandriol, which is quite estrogenic, and he also felt that the high estradiol levels experienced from aromatizing steroids might help gains. For cattle, it's certainly true that estrogens plus androgens give more weight gain than androgens alone, but with bodybuilders, I don't care for the side effects. Beyond that, it's just not necessary.

In fact, I've seen athletes gain 15 lb of LBM (retained) in two weeks while using antiestrogens, and many competitive bodybuilders use antiestrogens throughout their cycles with excellent results. Generally, normal body levels of estrogen are clearly sufficient and you don't need to take estrogenic or aromatizing steroids to make optimal gains." - Bill Roberts
(http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_117chem.html)

Interesting. Looks like estrogen is important. Well, clomiphene results in rather significant estradiol elevation, but considering it blocks it anyway, that may not be important.

Hmmm... real confusing.

[tommybono]

Oh wait, on the same page, looks like Señor Roberts answer my question in a way:

-----

Clomid for Life

Q: I have a question about the drug Clomid. It seems a good way to boost T levels. This seems much better to me than introducing a foreign substance into the body that will eventually shut down the testes' natural production of T. As men age, 50 mg/day for extended periods seem to be ideal to boost flagging T levels and increase one's quality of life.

Since Clomid is not a controlled substance — as anabolic steroids are — and with the U.S. law stating that a person may buy 90 day's worth of a drug for personal use, will a person break US law by buying Clomid from an overseas pharmacy?

Rich

A: It's definitely legal for you to import Clomid for personal use.

Clomid is one of the safer prescription drugs available, but I wouldn't assume that it's necessarily quite as ideal as you are thinking. For one thing, it isn't known whether Clomid acts as an estrogen or as an antiestrogen in the prostate. If it acts as an estrogen, it might be very inappropriate for older men.

Clomid is chemically very similar to tamoxifen , and tamoxifen is reasonably safe for use over a period of a decade or more, yet there's evidence that it may sometimes induce resistance to its own effect. Perhaps Clomid has the same problem. Its safety in men has been shown for periods of up to a year, but not for lifetime replacement therapy.

I think it's an excellent drug for athletes as part of a cycled plan, but I am not sure it is the best idea to be on it 365 days a year for the rest of one's life. I'd look at other ways of keeping Testosterone up, and perhaps just use Clomid as part of a cycled program.

-----

Slightly different though. But I was considering cycling it, not using it like vitaminas. Maybe I should wait til I'm 21 and just use real juice dammit.

[jbrand]

Originally posted by tommybono

Interesting. Looks like estrogen is important. Well, clomiphene results in rather significant estradiol elevation, but considering it blocks it anyway, that may not be important.

Hmmm... real confusing. [/B]

Clomid is very confusing in that regard. Yes, you are right in that clomid causes an increase in estradiol. As far as it's role as an antagonist in which it blocks receptors in some tissues (breast tissue and the hypothalmus), and it is an estrogen agonist in other tissues (depending on scenario). In it's practical form, it will help in preventing gyno (antagonist) but will result in us acting like a pregnant jewish woman (agonist).

[Strutt]

As far as I know, men do not need ANY estradiol (aka the bad estrogen). Men just need some estrogen to function, build muscle, cognitively, maintain libido and other manly things. Some people may not be aware that men have estrogen receptors in the brain.

I am guessing that if your estrogen levels are high to begin with that you may respond well to Clomid at 100 mg/day (it may get you in an ideal estrogen range) strength wise, libido wise and perhaps anabolically.

Again, it goes back to what I was saying earlier. Too much or too little estrogen in the system can make testosterone less effective.

I would check my hormone levels before I would try a Clomid only cycle. But like I said, HCG is a MUCH better route.

[tommybono]

HCG is rather difficult for me to acquire as of late. But the clomid, oh that almost free. Technically I can go as far as 50 mgs/day for two weeks on four weeks off. Yes I want hormone levels checked at hospital. I am curious about that as well.

Hahaha you right about pregnant jewish woman crack! They say men on clomid act like bitch with pms.

Oh well. I cannot believe I am actually considering taking an estrogen to up my T.

BTW My primary fat deposits are chest, butt, and thighs. Isn't this rather feminine? If I be woman, I have very big mammaries, no? Hahaha I wonder if this reflect poorly on my estrogen levels. HEY I not have breasts ok. Just get fat there. Of course love handles too. But I have a six pack at 10% bodyfat and fat lower pecs to match. Ugh.

Gracias for all your help people. If I try I tell how it goes.

[Methuselah]

Some people use HCG for this. I've never heard of anyone using Clomid.

[kizer_soce]

Actually I am pretty sure about 2-3 yrs ago there was someone on meso that did this (I cannot remember who or what his doseage was though). He got blood tests before and during his cycle of clomid only and it showed approximately 20% increase in testosterone levels . I may try to dig it up if I have time to do so.

[tuff]

I would like to see that study. Bro clomid is not gonna give you an edge, it is as simple as that. That is not what it is for. Try like they said use HCG . If you are taking one illeagal drug (clomid) why not just do it all?
Peace out
Tuff

[Strutt]

I would like to see what the guy's estrogen levels were after his 20% increase in test.

[tommybono]

Strutt, according to the pubmed study I posted at top, estradiol go really high while on clomiphene. Maybe since clomiphene block most E receptors, E and up nowhere to go and hang around in blood stream.

Tuff: which study, the 100% and 304% T and Free T increase? I posted a link. Check out the first few posts.

Gracias all.

[D3m3nt3d]

Bro...clomid is a womens obulation drug as TNT once stated..y use it if you havent done steroids

[Strutt]

As I said, men do not need estradiol so the rise in estradiol by Clomid would just be a unwanted side effect. If you do a good amount of Clomid you will block the estrogen which will render the added testosterone pretty useless. If you are looking for anabolism this is not the way to go.

[jbrand]

Originally posted by Strutt
As I said, men do not need estradiol so the rise in estradiol by Clomid would just be a unwanted side effect. If you do a good amount of Clomid you will block the estrogen which will render the added testosterone pretty useless. If you are looking for anabolism this is not the way to go.

Generalizations are never the answer when dealing with hormones. Estradiol can be anabolic via its effects on insulin and gh.

[Strutt]

Hmm. Interesting. I'd like to see a study on that.

[tommybono]

Señor Strutt, regarding Estradiol and Insulin :

--

"Effect of treatment with different doses of 17-beta-estradiol on the insulin receptor."

"Our results showed a tissue-dependent response to estradiol. We found that low doses of estradiol increased the amount of insulin receptors in liver and muscle on days 6 and 11 of treatment but not in adipose tissue, and after 16 days only the muscle responsed in this way. On the other hand, high doses of estradiol significantly decreased the amount of insulin receptors, at least in muscle and adipose tissue. ... The specific molecular mechanism for this action is as yet unknown."

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract)

Interesting no? Now to know whether the increase in Estradiol due to clomiphene is high or low, and whether or not that is offset by the estrogen blocking capacities of the drug.

Will post when see more.

[tommybono]

Strutt said "If you do a good amount of Clomid you will block the estrogen which will render the added testosterone pretty useless. If you are looking for anabolism this is not the way to go."

>> Why will blocking estrogen render the added Testosteron useless? Do not understand this logic.

D3m3nt3d said "Bro...clomid is a womens obulation drug as TNT once stated..y use it if you havent done steroids "

>> Simple. Reported 304% increase in free testosterone and 100% increase in total testosterone in healthy twenty-somethings men. But the effect on estradiol and blocking shit and stuff really confuse me now. BTW try to ignore the big brouhaha about clomid as women's ovulation drug. Limiting clomid to that is very poor science, no?

[tommybono]

"Our results suggest that low concentrations of 17-beta-estradiol could be responsible for the upregulation of insulin receptor substrate 1, increasing insulin sensitivity in muscle and adipose tissue. However, insulin receptor substrate 1 is downregulated with high concentrations of 17-beta-estradiol, thus these high hormone plasma levels could favour insulin resistance in peripheral tissues. The role of 17-beta-estradiol seems to modulate insulin receptor substrate 1 levels in insulin dependent tissues, but in a different manner in each tissue. These novel findings are important for improving knowledge about the possible risk for insulin resistance in women taking oral contraceptives or receiving hormone replacement therapy at menopause."

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract)

Looks like estradiol thing very fuzzy. Sometimes good sometimes bad. Very case to case. Not good point of manipulation.

Is 300% increase in T not good? It looked fine by me. They use clomiphene after all to restore T in low-T endurance athletes.

[tommybono]

Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) used was 17beta estradiol plus cyclic norethisterone acetate. Wonder if norethisterone acetate altered results.

"The change in body weight during HRT was equal to the change during placebo, but relative fat mass was significantly reduced. During HRT, compared with during placebo, lean body mass increased and total fat mass decreased. Total bone mineral content increased and abdominal fat decreased during HRT compared with placebo."

"DISCUSSION: HRT is linked to the reversal of both menopause-related obesity and loss of lean mass, without overall change in body weight. The increase in lean body mass during HRT is likely explained by muscle anabolism, which in turn, prevents disease in the elderly."

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract)

If this is true and the acetate thingy up there was not the only contributor, than I must yield - estradiol aids in anabolism of muscle. But at the price of tits? No thank you. But I be wondering, what is more anabolic , Testosterone or Estradiol? Or is testosterone anabolic via aromatizing to estradiol? (I think testosterone is more anabolic because non-aromatizing shit still gives some gains, but E helps too, at the expense of manliness.)

This is mighty confusing! I'm not doctor yet!

[cpitt398]

tommybono: this is a very interesting question, the concept has also crossed my mind before but obviously you have put more thought into it. The only advice I can give is there is no exact science when it comes to human subjects, you are your own lab rat in certain scenerios. Obviously no one subscribing to this thread has tried it so you might as well.

It is your body, but I don't know if only 2 weeks of a testosterone boost would be enough to experience results. When you use a synthetic testosterone at much higher levels than possible to produce naturally it takes two weeks or so to notice results. Plus at 50mgs per day (depending on the half-life) it might be a week before a significant amount of the drug is in your system to build muscle.

I am afraid that even if your theory is right that with 2 weeks on and 4 off you might not see results.

[tommybono]

Mr. Pitt, thank you for your most necessary reply. I might as well try it, yes, in about a month or two -- when money permits. You are right, most of the studies involved 3 months or more of continuous use at 50 to 100mgs a day. That is serious expensive shit by me. But we'll see.

What cycling method do you suggest I use? Or should I say, what cycle do you use with synthetic testosteron? Just wondering. I do not want to use continuous as it may be bad for my system.

[tommybono]

According to most sources, Clomiphene Citrate's half life is 5-7 days which is supposedly long, I don't see why.

[tommybono]

BTW considering the half-life of clomid is so long does that mean it stays detectable almost as long as deca (w/c has around nine hours half life)? And do they actually test for this shit? Yeah it's banned, but is there a test for it?

[Iron horse]

clomids not illegal. deca lasts up to 18 months!

[Nate_Dog]

I think it would work, the clomid. If you natural hormone levels are low. Hell that is what it does!

I think to say that it is only useful after gear is ignorant (no flame intended). Think about it! Need I say more!

Where is Dr Evil? He would shed some light!