Test E in small doses??

[runninpony]

What could you expect from a small dose of say 250-300mg a week of Test E, injected once a week?

[Swifto]

There was a thread on this a few days back. Its also worth doing a search.

ANyone have experiance with a low dose cycle?

Many have had great success with low dosed cycles.

[runninpony]

I am mainly trying to find out what else I would need to run with it and what PCT i would need to run

[T3/T4 GSR]

Well I am running 250mg a week of test e and I am using superdrol at 10/10/20/20 for the first 4 weeks.

[runninpony]

Well I am running 250mg a week of test e and I am using superdrol at 10/10/20/20 for the first 4 weeks.

Let me know what kind of results you get!

[juiceboxxx]

Let me know what kind of results you get!

results = diet/training

+

multi vitamins/supplemts.

[lucabratzi]

i have heard good things about low dose cycles...i wouldnt do it, just cause i dont think i'd get jack shit outa it...

[HORSE~]

Low dose cycle is A great idea you can always go up but going down is A diffrent story.

[Warrior]

You should not use under 300mg per week for athletic purposes. I am the last person to advocate huge stacks of androgens in most cases - but I would not suggest using T under 300mg per week... under "normal" conditions, you would still have plenty of benefits to gather before worrying about any real risk. IMHO - a minimum dose of TE should be 250mg every 5 days (350mg/wk)...

Studies point to 300mg as being the magic point when using testosterone as a performance enhancing drug. Under 300mg per week you can still expect some elevation above endogenous levels - setting you up for increased protein sythesis and a mild anti-corticoid... but not much else. The real magic that occurs via satelite cell activation... more satelite cells = more muscle...

One study on dose-dependent results as they relate to satellite cells:

Testosterone-induced muscle hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number in healthy, young men.
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059, USA.

Testosterone (T) supplementation in men induces muscle fiber hypertrophy. We hypothesized that T-induced increase in muscle fiber size is associated with a dose-dependent increase in satellite cell number. We quantitated satellite cell and myonuclear number by using direct counting and spatial orientation methods in biopsies of vastus lateralis obtained at baseline and after 20 wk of treatment with a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist and a 125-, 300-, or 600-mg weekly dose of T enanthate. T administration was associated with a significant increase in myonuclear number in men receiving 300- and 600-mg doses. The posttreatment percent satellite cell number, obtained by direct counting, differed significantly among the three groups (ANCOVA P < 0.000001); the mean posttreatment values (5.0 and 15.0%) in men treated with 300- and 600-mg doses were greater than baseline (2.5 and 2.5%, respectively, P < 0.05 vs. baseline). The absolute satellite cell number measured by spatial orientation at 20 wk (1.5 and 4.0/mm) was significantly greater than baseline (0.3 and 0.6/mm) in men receiving the 300- and 600-mg doses (P < 0.05). The change in percent satellite cell number correlated with changes in total (r = 0.548) and free T concentrations (r = 0.468). Satellite cell and mitochondrial areas were significantly higher and the nuclear-to-cytoplasmic ratio lower after treatment with 300- and 600-mg doses. We conclude that T-induced muscle fiber hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number, a proportionate increase in myonuclear number, and changes in satellite cell ultrastructure.

PMID: 12670837 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[HORSE~]

You should not use under 300mg per week for athletic purposes. I am the last person to advocate huge stacks of androgens in most cases - but I would not suggest using T under 300mg per week... under "normal" conditions, you would still have plenty of benefits to gather before worrying about any real risk. IMHO - a minimum dose of TE should be 250mg every 5 days (350mg/wk)...

Studies point to 300mg as being the magic point when using testosterone as a performance enhancing drug. Under 300mg per week you can still expect some elevation above endogenous levels - setting you up for increased protein sythesis and a mild anti-corticoid... but not much else. The real magic that occurs via satelite cell activation... more satelite cells = more muscle...

One study on dose-dependent results as they relate to satellite cells:

Testosterone-induced muscle hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number in healthy, young men.
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059, USA.

Testosterone (T) supplementation in men induces muscle fiber hypertrophy. We hypothesized that T-induced increase in muscle fiber size is associated with a dose-dependent increase in satellite cell number. We quantitated satellite cell and myonuclear number by using direct counting and spatial orientation methods in biopsies of vastus lateralis obtained at baseline and after 20 wk of treatment with a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist and a 125-, 300-, or 600-mg weekly dose of T enanthate. T administration was associated with a significant increase in myonuclear number in men receiving 300- and 600-mg doses. The posttreatment percent satellite cell number, obtained by direct counting, differed significantly among the three groups (ANCOVA P < 0.000001); the mean posttreatment values (5.0 and 15.0%) in men treated with 300- and 600-mg doses were greater than baseline (2.5 and 2.5%, respectively, P < 0.05 vs. baseline). The absolute satellite cell number measured by spatial orientation at 20 wk (1.5 and 4.0/mm) was significantly greater than baseline (0.3 and 0.6/mm) in men receiving the 300- and 600-mg doses (P < 0.05). The change in percent satellite cell number correlated with changes in total (r = 0.548) and free T concentrations (r = 0.468). Satellite cell and mitochondrial areas were significantly higher and the nuclear-to-cytoplasmic ratio lower after treatment with 300- and 600-mg doses. We conclude that T-induced muscle fiber hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number, a proportionate increase in myonuclear number, and changes in satellite cell ultrastructure.

PMID: 12670837 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Great post did not know this!

[jmt]

Here are my results from a Test E 250mg/week cycle.

250mg Testosterone Cycle Results

HTH.

[marcus300]

What are you trying to achieve?

[vitor]

250 mgs ew, will shut you down yust as much as an higher dose. Its a bit pointless IMO, to use an dose that will kill your natty test, and at the same time results in little gains.

Then I would rather use some milder compounds that wont shut you down completely, for-example a Primo/winstrol stack.

[ZIA1]

What could you expect from a small dose of say 250-300mg a week of Test E, injected once a week?

Yes, you can get results but you'll be limited. Maybe that's what you're looking for. Try once every 5 days instead of 7 days. Probably better...that's what I hear

[jp_blois]

You should not use under 300mg per week for athletic purposes.

That is a hugely generalised statement brother. You might want to double check your wording next time.

I am the last person to advocate huge stacks of androgens in most cases - but I would not suggest using T under 300mg per week... under "normal" conditions, you would still have plenty of benefits to gather before worrying about any real risk. IMHO - a minimum dose of TE should be 250mg every 5 days (350mg/wk)...


Studies point to 300mg as being the magic point when using testosterone as a performance enhancing drug. Under 300mg per week you can still expect some elevation above endogenous levels - setting you up for increased protein sythesis and a mild anti-corticoid... but not much else. The real magic that occurs via satelite cell activation... more satelite cells = more muscle...

One study on dose-dependent results as they relate to satellite cells:

Testosterone-induced muscle hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number in healthy, young men.
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059, USA.

Testosterone (T) supplementation in men induces muscle fiber hypertrophy. We hypothesized that T-induced increase in muscle fiber size is associated with a dose-dependent increase in satellite cell number. We quantitated satellite cell and myonuclear number by using direct counting and spatial orientation methods in biopsies of vastus lateralis obtained at baseline and after 20 wk of treatment with a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist and a 125-, 300-, or 600-mg weekly dose of T enanthate. T administration was associated with a significant increase in myonuclear number in men receiving 300- and 600-mg doses. The posttreatment percent satellite cell number, obtained by direct counting, differed significantly among the three groups (ANCOVA P < 0.000001); the mean posttreatment values (5.0 and 15.0%) in men treated with 300- and 600-mg doses were greater than baseline (2.5 and 2.5%, respectively, P < 0.05 vs. baseline). The absolute satellite cell number measured by spatial orientation at 20 wk (1.5 and 4.0/mm) was significantly greater than baseline (0.3 and 0.6/mm) in men receiving the 300- and 600-mg doses (P < 0.05). The change in percent satellite cell number correlated with changes in total (r = 0.548) and free T concentrations (r = 0.468). Satellite cell and mitochondrial areas were significantly higher and the nuclear-to-cytoplasmic ratio lower after treatment with 300- and 600-mg doses. We conclude that T-induced muscle fiber hypertrophy is associated with an increase in satellite cell number, a proportionate increase in myonuclear number, and changes in satellite cell ultrastructure.

PMID: 12670837 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Would you care to explain what you mean by "normal" please?
And also, your argument is flawed in many ways. It really depends what Runninpony is looking to achieve by taking the Test.

For the record, I'm on 175mg/week Test E. But then again, I'm a cyclist, and looking (hoping!) to put on as little weight as possible (if any at all).

Oh yeah, normal PCT protocol still applies.

Runninpony - what are your goals?

[Warrior]

That is a hugely generalised statement brother. You might want to double check your wording next time.

Okay... sorry sally , I would not suggest under 300mg per week when your goal is to maximize muscular gains/performance... but if you need to run under 300mg of testosterone - do you really need the exogenous intervention that leads to HPTA shut down? It seems much milder alternatives could be employed...

Would you care to explain what you mean by "normal" please?
And also, your argument is flawed in many ways. It really depends what Runninpony is looking to achieve by taking the Test.

For the record, I'm on 175mg/week Test E. But then again, I'm a cyclist, and looking (hoping!) to put on as little weight as possible (if any at all).

Normal? Not abnormal... not in the average situation. I quoted normal to highlight the fact that I am not his physician nor am I aware of any health risks he may have. Saying everyone can use over 300mg of TE per week with maximized benefits is not reasonable...

What is your purpose for using 175mg per week of testosterone? Are you trying to keep your androgen levels from becoming supressed from your long cardiovascular training? Seems analagous to putting 100+ octane gas in a Yugo... but I am not too familiar with Cycling (only what I have read in studies or books that skim over the subject)... but I would like to hear your intentions or ideas on this. Seems you could be better suited simply using some Proviron or some dietary changes to reach your training goals... without shutting down the HPTA...

[jp_blois]

Okay... sorry sally , I would not suggest under 300mg per week when your goal is to maximize muscular gains/performance...

oh that makes me feel better

What is your purpose for using 175mg per week of testosterone?

Improve RBC & recovery

Seems you could be better suited simply using some Proviron or some dietary changes to reach your training goals... without shutting down the HPTA...

From what I know (very little) about Proviron , it reduces estrogen levels which is a bad thing for an endurance athlete.

For more info - check this out Endurance Athlete First Cycle - Test E Note, however, I have adjusted my cycle to what I previosuly had planned.

[Warrior]

This is an interesting thing... something I haven't dealt with much. I am assuming you are trying to increase endurance and your slow-twitch fiber count. Prolonged cardiovascular training does lower your natural androgen levels... your body wants to drop the V8 for a more fuel efficient V4 so I can see the application in using a replacement dose of testosterone ... or something that would simply double endogenous levels. Increased caloric intake can help avoid this problem... prolonged endurance excerise with inadequate caloric intake can really shut you down.

In the end, I still don't think you would need testosterone for this. But I would be interested in hearing how it effects your training. And you should read up on Proviron - clinically, it is not normally used as an anti-estrogen but to treat hypogonadism... it could help keep your endogenous levels up...

From Proviron's insert:

INDICATIONS
• Declining physical activity and mental alertness in middle- and old-aged men
Reduced efficiency, easy fatigability, lack of concentration, weak memory, disturbances of libido and potency, irritability, disturbances of sleep, depressive moods, and general vegetative complaints are often attributed to androgen-deficiency. These complaints can be overcome or improved by the use of Proviron tablets.
• Potency disturbances
Proviron overcomes potency disturbances due to androgen-deficiency. It may also be of use as supplementary therapy in cases of diminished potency where androgen-deficiency is not the primary cause.
• Hypogonadism
Growth, development and function of androgen-dependent target organs are stimulated by Proviron. It promotes development of secondary male sex characteristics in cases of prepuberal hypogonadism. Full clinical and laboratory investigations are necessary in all cases of young patients prior to commencement of treatment. Proviron tablets may also be used as a substitution therapy in cases where a loss of gonadal function has occurred post-puberally.
• Infertility
Oligozoospermia and deficient Leydig-cell secretion may be the cause of infertility. With Proviron treatment, sperm count can be increased, the quality improved and, furthermore, a higher fructose concentration up to normal values can be achieved thus increasing the chances of procreation.

Another study I just found that basically backs up what I have written...

Testosterone and endurance exercise: development of the "exercise-hypogonadal male condition".

During the last 30 years a large number of research studies have been conducted examining reproductive endocrine dysfunction in exercising women. The number of similar studies examining men is still relatively small. Nevertheless, an increasing amount of research studies in men indicate endurance exercise training has significant effects upon the major male reproductive hormone, testosterone, and the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis that regulates reproductive hormones. This review article addresses one reproductive endocrine dysfunction found in exercising men, what has been deemed the "exercise-hypogonadal male condition". Specifically, men with this condition exhibit basal (resting-state) free and total testosterone levels that are significantly and persistently reduced. The exact physiological mechanism inducing the reduction of testosterone is currently unclear, but is postulated to be a dysfunction (or perhaps a readjustment) within the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular regulatory axis. The time course for the development of the "exercise-hypogonadal condition" or the threshold of exercise training necessary to induce the condition remains unresolved. The potential exists for these reduced testosterone levels within the exercise-hypogonadal male to disrupt and be detrimental to some anabolic or androgenic testosterone-dependent physiological processes. Unfortunately, extremely few research studies have addressed whether such processes are affected, and thus findings are inconclusive. Conversely, the alterations in testosterone levels brought about by endurance exercise training have the potential for cardiovascular protective effects and thus could be beneficial to the health of these men. Current evidence suggests this condition is limited to men who have been persistently involved in chronic endurance exercise training for extended periods of time (i.e., years). Many questions, however, regarding the male reproductive endocrine adaptive process to exercise and exercise training remain unanswered, necessitating the need for further research on this topic.

PMID: 16268050 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[boardhead]

just to add to this discussion, i just fininshed a 12 week low dose cycle for experimental purposes only.

week 1-12 test E QV 250/once a week
week 1-10 EQ UL 200/once a week
ldex .25 day throughout

i am in PCT right now

started at 6'1 207
ended 220

down to 218 now, so put on roughly 10lbs. no water retention.

my diet was not great this cycle, i believe my results wouldve been much better if i stuck to a strict diet like i usually do.

no bloat, high sex drive, no mood swings, felt great during this cycle.

unfortunately its time to recover until next time.

Boardhead

[Warrior]

You should deffinitly be able to make gains with testosterone at 200-250mg per week - that is a good increase from endogenous levels... in fact, if you couldn't - I would say your diet and training needs to be polished off before proceeding... and maybe even 125mg (at least you know you are keeping yourself from becoming hypogonadal)...

BUT - for the most bang for you androgen buck and time spent on cycle, testosterone should be used at over 300mg per week... for those using it for increasing muscle mass

[runninpony]

Thanks for all the replys guys! I have decided, before even reading these posts, to go ahead and go with a 300mg dose every week as well as 30mg ED of Anavar . My goals are to gain 10-15 lbs and lose maybe 1-2%bf. My current ACCURATE stats are
6"0
165lbs
12%bf
VITOR--I would imagine one main reason people would want to run a lower cycle is to minimize side effects,,,thats why I chose to

[jp_blois]

This is an interesting thing... something I haven't dealt with much. I am assuming you are trying to increase endurance and your slow-twitch fiber count. Prolonged cardiovascular training does lower your natural androgen levels... your body wants to drop the V8 for a more fuel efficient V4 so I can see the application in using a replacement dose of testosterone ... or something that would simply double endogenous levels. Increased caloric intake can help avoid this problem... prolonged endurance excerise with inadequate caloric intake can really shut you down.

In the end, I still don't think you would need testosterone for this. But I would be interested in hearing how it effects your training. And you should read up on Proviron - clinically, it is not normally used as an anti-estrogen but to treat hypogonadism... it could help keep your endogenous levels up...

Thanks for your info Warrior. Although I haven't come across Proviron in my research for endurance athletes, I will look into it.

I'm only a week into my cycle. I might do a diary in the Member's Results board if there is enough interest.

Inadequate caloric intake is a real bitch. Been there done that (sometimes deliberate, sometimes not). Makes keeping weight low difficult.

BTW - after my 12 week cycle of 175mg/week Test E, I expect to have gained a bit of weight. How long do you think it would take to get it back down to 'natural' levels. Will it 'just' happen anyway or do I have to be super-strict on diet? Thanks (and hopefully I am not hijacking this thread)

[Warrior]

Thanks for all the replys guys! I have decided, before even reading these posts, to go ahead and go with a 300mg dose every week as well as 30mg ED of Anavar . My goals are to gain 10-15 lbs and lose maybe 1-2%bf. My current ACCURATE stats are
6"0
165lbs
12%bf

Run 250mg every fifth day (E5D) for 350mg per week. With 30mg of Anavar every day you would be running a grand total of 560mg total weekly androgen use... 350mg from testosterone and 210mg from the Var per week. A pretty basic and "safe" cycle. You can't really expect to lose fat and gain 15 pounds with this - you will have to decide for one or the other.

But if you bulk pretty clean - you can set a good goal of some lean muscle gain over the next several weeks you stay on. Going from 165@12% to 180 at 11% would be a success in my eyes... that would be keeping the same fat weight (19.8lbs) but increasing your LBM by 15 pounds.

Train progressively with a good log of the weights you use, reps, sets and possibly the time it takes you to finish a routine (could need it for reference). Use plenty of free wights and what you know about the amount of cardio you require...

[Warrior]

Thanks for your info Warrior. Although I haven't come across Proviron in my research for endurance athletes, I will look into it.

I'm only a week into my cycle. I might do a diary in the Member's Results board if there is enough interest.

Inadequate caloric intake is a real bitch. Been there done that (sometimes deliberate, sometimes not). Makes keeping weight low difficult.

BTW - after my 12 week cycle of 175mg/week Test E, I expect to have gained a bit of weight. How long do you think it would take to get it back down to 'natural' levels. Will it 'just' happen anyway or do I have to be super-strict on diet? Thanks (and hopefully I am not hijacking this thread)

You will need to jump into some post cycle drugs coming off. Some Clomid should do the trick. Once all your exogenous intervention has passed (usually after about 2 weeks with TE) start with a Clomid load. This will supress excess estrogen and stimualte LH to get your testes producing there own testosterone again. Some adrenal stimulators also help at this time - like caffeine, guarana, ephedrine, green tea. 12 weeks is a pretty good spread - I would also consider a few shots of HCG prior to beginning the post-cycle therapy - just to get the testes sensitive to the gonadtropins again.

I would be interested hearing how your cycle helps your sports-related goals. Keep a good log of your times and training and post in the Member's Cycle Results forum - it would be a good reference to have here... low dose TE and Cycling/endurance training...

[T3/T4 GSR]

Let me know what kind of results you get!

Well I am 6 weeks in so I can give you a bit of an update. I am up 17 pounds and around 4 weeks left to go. So hopefully I can pick up some more gains but I did strain a muslce in my forearm a bit so I am going to have to tone down some of my training and play with some new lifts to try not to make the injury worse. If I can pick up another 5 or so pounds in the next month I will be pretty happy being I already passed my goal.

[runninpony]

Run 250mg every fifth day (E5D) for 350mg per week. With 30mg of Anavar every day you would be running a grand total of 560mg total weekly androgen use... 350mg from testosterone and 210mg from the Var per week. A pretty basic and "safe" cycle. You can't really expect to lose fat and gain 15 pounds with this - you will have to decide for one or the other.

But if you bulk pretty clean - you can set a good goal of some lean muscle gain over the next several weeks you stay on. Going from 165@12% to 180 at 11% would be a success in my eyes... that would be keeping the same fat weight (19.8lbs) but increasing your LBM by 15 pounds.

Train progressively with a good log of the weights you use, reps, sets and possibly the time it takes you to finish a routine (could need it for reference). Use plenty of free wights and what you know about the amount of cardio you require...

The gear Ive got is 200mg per ml,,,,so I was figuring going 1.5cc once a week for 300mg

[Warrior]

The gear Ive got is 200mg per ml,,,,so I was figuring going 1.5cc once a week for 300mg

200mg every 4 days (E4D)... (200mg/4)*7=350mg per week...

[runninpony]

200mg every 4 days (E4D)... (200mg/4)*7=350mg per week...

What would the difference really be in taking 1.5cc every 7 days so Idont have to inject so often??

[jp_blois]

I think you maintain a more stable hormone level if you inject e4d

[Warrior]

I think you maintain a more stable hormone level if you inject e4d

Exactly - enanthate is not that heavy of an ester and I would not suggest spacing the injections out more than 5 days... otherwise you would need something heavier like undecylenate or decanoate... maybe cypionate .

The more of a roller coaster you create with your exogenous hormone intervention - the more negative side effects (cosmetic, emotional and androgenic ). Here is some pretty handy software: the Roid Calc: you can see how different esters effect blood levels with it - try Testoviron (same as testosterone enanthate ) at 7 days and 4 day injections and compare the results...

[jp_blois]

That is one tricked out site! I'm calculating stuff now... it's fun. Thanks Warrior!!!