Is this too toxic?

**DE18** · 04-02-2006, 10:13 PM

I was wondering if I take clen and winny at the same time over an 8 week period would it be really bad on my liver? Is it safe? I was considering taking clen and anavar instead but the loss of sex drive is not something I want. Also I am not into needles so test is out of the question. Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

**Kappa Capo** · 04-02-2006, 10:18 PM

Yes it will **** your liver but you will not notice it, and it will not be permanent injury.
The only safe way for you to really know the answer is to take regular bloodchecks during the cycle.

I use winny 100mg/ed for 8weeks and dont get sick.

**rast4man** · 04-02-2006, 10:45 PM

Test should always be the foundation of ANY cycle in order to compensate levels of test. If you aren't ready for needles, perhaps you aren't ready for AAS. What do you really expect to gain from Winny and Clen ? Is your bf% low enough right now (single digits, low doubles) to be beneficial from these compounds? How about your diet? Is your diet in check?

In answer to your question, I have proved with numerous blood tests about the toxicity on MY liver with Anadrol and Winny (Drol at 50 and 100mg ED and Winny at 60mg ED both ran for 6 weeks), point being, with any number of orals, you can combat the toxicity levels by using RALA, NAC and Milk Thistle at their respected doses as suggested.

Best of luck.

**Rocky IV** · 04-02-2006, 10:50 PM

Milk thissle will do the trick dont worry about your liver that much on this one you notrunning a high does or for too long ither as well it is the only compound you are taking besides clen wich does not disrupt your liver in anyway..so milk thisle just to be safe and ull be fine

**Hellmaskbanned** · 04-02-2006, 10:53 PM

I wouldn't but to much faith in the milk thristle. 8 weeks on an oral in moderate dosages should'nt pose a problem for your liver.

**rast4man** · 04-02-2006, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Hellmask

I wouldn't but to much faith in the milk thristle. 8 weeks on an oral in moderate dosages should'nt pose a problem for your liver.

I beg to differ. I ran Liv52 while on a cycle with orals and had regular bloodwork done and then once that was finished, we were all amazed at the LACK of what Liv52 did.

I did my next cycle with a stronger oral and used NAC, R-ALA and Milk Thistle. The Milk Thistle was used first for 1 week, then I added the R-ALA on week 2 and so on and so forth...my lab work came back and it was VERY normal considering the dose and the amount of compounds I was on. So personally (and I am sure I can speak for a lot of other people) Milk Thistle IS something to put faith in.

**Rocky IV** · 04-02-2006, 10:57 PM

it could never hurt to take it just in case

**Hellmaskbanned** · 04-02-2006, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by rast4man

I beg to differ. I ran Liv52 while on a cycle with orals and had regular bloodwork done and then once that was finished, we were all amazed at the LACK of what Liv52 did.

I did my next cycle with a stronger oral and used NAC, R-ALA and Milk Thistle. The Milk Thistle was used first for 1 week, then I added the R-ALA on week 2 and so on and so forth...my lab work came back and it was VERY normal considering the dose and the amount of compounds I was on. So personally (and I am sure I can speak for a lot of other people) Milk Thistle IS something to put faith in.

Thats good for you, but alot of factors play a role besides just the MT.
You gotta take your orals in moderate dosages for moderate times. Don't get crazy with them. Milk thristle won't save your liver if you trash it day in and day out with orals or/and alcohol. Liver toxicity is overated by many though.

**rast4man** · 04-02-2006, 11:07 PM

There is a difference between acute and chronic when it comes to the liver. Therefore, you can "trash it day in and day out with orals or/and alcohol". The liver is the one organ which can repair itself and using PROVEN supplements like Silymarin, certainly helps in that repair process. Of course nothing can be better for the liver than to stop the source of it's aggravation. I will save the long extensive medical explanation of exactly what Silymarin does, but it is something that should be added no matter what oral is being used. I like to think of it as tried and true.

The one point I will concede too though; is that liver toxicity is vastly blown out of proportion.

**Hellmaskbanned** · 04-02-2006, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by rast4man

There is a difference between acute and chronic when it comes to the liver. Therefore, you can "trash it day in and day out with orals or/and alcohol". The liver is the one organ which can repair itself and using PROVEN supplements like Silymarin, certainly helps in that repair process. I will save the long extensive medical explanation of exactly the Silymarin does, but it is something that should be added no matter what oral is being used.

The one point I will concede too though; is that liver toxicity is vastly blown out of proportion.

Could you post that medical explanation or study , I would really like to see it. I've been asking for others to post one , but they never do. I hope milk thristle does what it's suppose to. Not just another overrated supplement.

***BajanBastard*** · 04-02-2006, 11:13 PM

Don't worry about your liver, worry about your HDH/LDL cholesterol ratios stenozolol can be harsh on em. Really though, if you're "not into needles" you're to pussy to use steroids anyway.

P.S Do a search on T-bol and anavar .

**rast4man** · 04-02-2006, 11:15 PM

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...teroid-use.htm

Snippet:

High intensity resistance training will often lead to elevated AST, ALT, and CK while GGT remains in the normal range. This is simply a result of normal acute muscle damage caused by training and is not pathological.

Treatment options for signs of liver stress

In such cases where 17-alkylated steroids have been abused, there are several treatment options. First and foremost, the individual should be advised of the risks and pathology associated with such drugs and alternatives should be suggested.

Because hepatitis associated with AAS use is not due to infection, treatment options are limited. There are some herbal supplement that have shown promise in the treatment of liver disease, namely Milk Thistle and Picrorhiza.7 Silybum marianum (milk thistle) has been shown to have clinical applications in the treatment of toxic hepatitis, fatty liver, cirrhosis, ischemic injury, radiation toxicity, and viral hepatitis via its antioxidative, anti-lipid peroxidative, antifibrotic, anti-inflammatory, immuno-modulating, and liver regenerating effects. Picrorhiza kurroa, though less well researched than Silybum, appears to have similar applications and mechanisms of action. When compared with Silybum, the hepatoprotective effect of Picrorhiza was found to be similar, or in many cases superior, to the effect of Silybum.7

7. Luper S. A review of plants used in the treatment of liver disease: part 1. Altern Med Rev. 1998 Dec;3(6):410-21

***BajanBastard*** · 04-02-2006, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hellmask

I wouldn't but to much faith in the milk thristle. 8 weeks on an oral in moderate dosages should'nt pose a problem for your liver.

Start

. Thanks for posting that Rasta.

**Hellmaskbanned** · 04-02-2006, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Start

. Thanks for posting that Rasta.

I'll now put more faith in it than before.

Thanks for posting that bro.

**rast4man** · 04-02-2006, 11:24 PM

My pleasure guys, it's all about sharing and learning from each other. It's a small way for me to say thanks to everyone for all the interesting things I learn daily from this board. Keep the knowledge flowing.

***BajanBastard*** · 04-02-2006, 11:31 PM

Rast is just being modest his one of those Avant know-it-alls

.

**Auto54** · 04-03-2006, 12:38 AM

Abuse reported

**rast4man** · 04-03-2006, 01:21 AM

While I can agree with most of that, I have to say that in this particular forum, I don't assume people DON'T want to be BBs. I would think that the ones that are just looking for strength, endurance, speed would state that fact in the title of the post. I try to make it a point to ask people what their goal is in order to give a better answer, but sometimes it's not always the case.

IMO, I do believe that even people not looking to be freaky, should use a low dose of test to "cruise" just to keep levels up. Not necessarily for bulking. I am using Test and Winny and finishing up with Tren cutting down what I gained from a Drol/Test/Deca /Tren/Winny cycle.

Ben Johnson is old news, isn't the new Ben, Barry?